/lit/ - Literature

And none of those people are my ancestors, who made me, and who I respect above all (save for God, who also created me)

I'll have atleast 2 kids, and I'll win a nobel prize for literature. Then I will make this here thread to mock you, assuming /lit/ still exists

>>18744033
Cope

>To love itself, progeny is hateful.
t. Proudhon

>I regard marriage as a sin and the procreation of children as a crime. Moreover, I am convinced that he who burdens himself with the yoke of matrimony is an evil-doer because he brings children into the world without being able to guarantee their happiness. I despise mankind in all classes. I foresee that posterity will be much more miserable than we are. Should I not be a sinner if, despite this outlook for my offspring, I thought of having any?
t. Alexander Von Humboldt

>That I may die childless,’ he said, ‘that when my hour comes, I may turn my face to the wall, saying, I have not increased the great evil of human life—then, though I were a mundane, a fornicator, thief and liar, my sins shall melt even as a cloud. But he who dies with children about him, though his life were in all else an excellent deed, shall be accused by the truly wise, and the stain upon him shall endure for ever
t. George Moore

>Of the two forms of authorship—the procreation of another human being and a literary production—the latter has by some odd caprice of the popular mind generally been regarded as the more conceited and arrogant. Yet the plain truth is obviously the other way round. For it is difficult to conceive of any act that needs more self-assurance, self-complacency and self-approval than that of unhesitatingly foisting on the world a second edition of oneself...
t. Anthony Ludovici

>>18744033
If you had never been born
I wouldn't have had to know jealousy or pain

>>18744125
reads like an anti-natalist Rupi Kaur desu

>>18744033

john gray returns results of some black guy

>>18744033
Absolutely based

>>18744036
>>18744045
>>18744058
>>18744111
>>18744125
>4chan autists are telling people to have kids
Oh the ironing

>>18744033
But most of them still had sex.
Cope my little incel. Cope.

>>18744156
You obviously can't read.

>>18744156
I did almost ge a girl pregnant a few years ago, so yeah

>>18744163
Who said anything about sex? OP's thread is about procreation

>>18744170
>sex has nothing to do with having children

>>18744174
>Sex=Procreation
Wow this explains the falling birth rates in whole world.

>>18744033
Imagine never hearing "I love you daddy!" and getting a big hug from your happy kids

>>18744033
t. incel.

>>18744170
For me, the purpose of existence are the endless cycles of procreation and death. We were designed, as all life was, with that specific purpose in mind.
I suppose it's fine to reject your purpose, for any number of reasons. The problem is, some anons will use the anti natalist as a coping mechanism for their own shortcomings.
For me the problem is more practical. I can barely stand to live with myself, how the fuck can I expect another person to do it?

>>18744184
How many children are born due to IVF?

>>18744033
All these people had parents tho

>>18744192
Yeah I am sure this is the father-son relationship situation of all posters on boards.

>>18744224
>I hate my life so there's no way that you don't also hate yours
uhuh

>>18744192
Imagine never taking your son out hunting and teaching him shit.

>>18744228
A person with a "normal" life would have never ended up on this toxic shithole in the first place. But you're allowed to larp so go on.

>>18744251
You don't actually believe that any other social media is remotely better, do you?

>>18744251
This toxic shithole is still the best place for the free exchange of ideas on the internet, even though most of us are retarded.

>>18744033
The chad abandoner.

>>18744209
>shortcomings
We can't escape our psychology. If life isn't fair to anyone then why should they care about that shit? People with "happy" lives also project it other people.

>>18744210
The point is people are having probably most next in the history of humanity for hindered years but birth rates are falling so sex doesn't translate into procreation you retard.

>>18744192
>brother's kid home
>am shaving with straight razor
>he's looking at me
>alright, come here
>put some shaving soap on his face with the brush
>give him a safety razor without a blade
>okay now pull the razor until the foam is gone, like this
>that's right, just like a grown up
>pretend aftershave with water
>many laughs
>(holy shit I'm doing this dad thing why am I doing this dad thing)
n-no I don't want kids

>>18744033
Dubs checked for philosophers being homosexual

>>18744255
>guy hates himself so you must hate your life too

>>18744313
Having kids is amazing, anyone on here who is anti-natalist to post a photo. They never will because they are ugly and/or fat.

>>18744313
You're stepping on your brother's turf.
Don't be the cool uncle anon, have kids of your own.

>>18744255
>>18744256
We are more and more toxic towards each other than people on other platforms. Oldfags were much nicer to each other. In term of toxic irony fucked cynical meme culture we are no better than normalfags.

Yes average poster here is more honest. But that wasn't my point, I have read many how you holding up threads, feels threads, what's on your mind threads etc. to know that average regular poster here never had a "normal" and "happy" life. There are just too many "redflags" as normalfags (call it you) have to cross for ending up here.

>>18744371
What's normal? Why do you think we should be happy?

>>18744334
I'm (rather good looking according to many women but) anti-natalist but mostly because I think society is completely fucked and you have no agency over your kids' upbringing. They are inevitably absorbed by the globohomo and you'll be raising a stranger before you can really leave a mark.
But man there's nothing more beautiful than teaching something to a kid, they're like sponges. They get your traits and behavior and you can impact them and this makes you want to be the best person you can be and teach them everything you can, tell them about the world and how things work, but it all falls apart once society kicks in and they just become dumb NPCs because that's what modernity does. The same kid from that post is already a whole another person fully entrenched into whatever the fuck is going on. Anything I'd do would cause more contrast and problems than else.
Sometimes I think I should move into some fuckoff rural place and marry a peasant there.

>>18744359
Oh yeah I also thought about that. I felt like I was "stealing" a thing from my brother. On the other hand he's always working and his idea of fatherly behavior is just buying shit so the kid wouldn't have had this moment otherwise.

>>18744393
Seek help.

>>18744393
This was what Evola said too. And he argued against procreation.

>>18744406
You have no idea how massive the influence of modernity is on kids. It's inescapable. Unless you live under a rock your kids WILL have to conform and conformity now encompasses everything from politics to sexuality. I know many couples with kids and I've seen this too many times. You are not your kids' parent anymore, you are merely paying for their upbringing.

>>18744393
>I'm (rather good looking according to many women but) anti-natalist but mostly because I think society is completely fucked and you have no agency over your kids' upbringing. They are inevitably absorbed by the globohomo and you'll be raising a stranger before you can really leave a mark.
It's not the first time this has happened. The cycle continues, and it will continue, regardless of your participation or lack thereof.

>>18744387
I ma not saying that we should be "happy". I am just arguing against cunts who larp as muh life is better than yours. So go ask them if they have a "better" life then why they're posting here

>>18744427
Seek help.

Kids are honestly a fucking hassle and a source of enormous stress.

>>18744459
Seek help.

>>18744463
See kelp

>>18744459
>Kids are honestly a fucking hassle and a source of enormous stress.
I'm >>18744393 I swear that this is just about urban raised kids. I know people from rural places and the kids from these people, no matter the level of education, are "slower", not in the sense they're stupid but they have a more dilated sense of time, they have patience, they listen, they are generally more calm. Kids of rural people are so much more pleasant and they are also more receptive to their parents. The more these kids get entrenched into modernity, TV and other shit, they closer they get to the unbearable brat profile that everyone hates. The issue is not kids it's modernity. I also thought this way about kids.

>>18744429
>Children do not happen, not because children have become impossible, but principally because intelligence at the peak of intensity can no longer find any reason for their existence.

>>18744503
>Children do not happen, not because children have become impossible, but principally because intelligence at the peak of intensity can no longer find any reason for their existence.
Which is a roundabout way of saying we can't find a reason for our own existence.
A bold claim. If you believe it, unironically kill yourself.

>>18744560
Spengler said it.
I have the option to kill myself so I'll do it whenever I want.

>>18744572
Seek help.

>>18744576
No.

>>18744572
People not having children is the sign of a dying civilization, I agree with Spengler.

>>18744596
>Monkeys good
>Intelligence bad
Go back to monke

>>18744614
>>Monkeys good
>>Intelligence bad
Unironically. In fact, nature itself regulates our intelligence on a civilizational level over time. The Flynn effect is a meme. We aren't becoming smarter, due to technology making our lives easier we're becoming dumber.
And so the cycle continues.

>>18744629
Nah read that Spengler quote once again. He clearly said that it is a sign of intelligence this is why he himself never had any kids.

>>18744206
this.OP is most probably a genetic dead-end coping hard

>>18744645
Doesn't matter. It's still a sign of the decline.

>>18744663
If intelligence is decline and monkey bullshit is peak then humanity started declining when it developed intelligence apart from nature.

When people pressure you to get married and have children, it's like someone who walks along and steps in a pile of excrement and then tries to figure out how to get other people to step in it, too, to make up for his own mistake. They can't see that what they want is a form of suffering. To them it's something wonderful — because that's the best they know. The best they have. They don't know anything better than that.

>>18744679
Like I said, we aren't becoming more intelligent. We're becoming dumber. Peak intelligence was reached in the mid/late 19th century. In any case the decision to have or not have children is based on many more factors than just intelligence.

>>18744727
The purpose of life is suffering.

>>18744731
>intelligence at the peak of intensity
It is a sign of intelligence according Spengler.

>>18744744
Intelligence at the peak of intensity can not find the reason for the existence of children, might as well say it can't find a reason for existence itself.
Kill yourself nihilist. Be consistent.

>>18744737
Go suffer then, you freak. Go hang out with the indian self torture yogis. I'll wait here, comfy and unafflicted, until you come back with your tail between your legs.

>>18744760
Spengler said that and he himself never had kids and now we're moving circles.

>>18744763
>I'm not suffering anon
>Life is great
cope
Even if you earnestly believe that, it's still cope if not downright delusional.

>>18744760
nta but jokes on you I will kill myself, the problem with killing yourself is that chances are you're not a shit person so you don't want to destroy your family when they find your dead body
inevitably you explore what happens after you kill yourself and it's mostly concern for others that keeps you from doing that
even though even that is wearing thin
now you'll say "good riddance" or something but I don't give a fuck, I know that the world is shit exactly because of this attitude
you are probably also the same person who'd tell someone IRL some cutesy thing about life and helplines, if you gave a fuck about them
but the truth is that if you gave a fuck you'd just tell them it's OK just go ahead
faggot hypocrite

>>18744775
>t. butthurt breeder

>>18744788
I don't care if you off yourself or not.
I just want nihilists to be consistent for sake of consistence.

>>18744802
>A life affirmer is yelling at other people that they should kill themselves
Kek, don't you have better things in life to do?

>>18744153
i think they mean this guy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)

>>18744165
>almost get someone pregnant
How does that work?

>>18744815
Life will go on without you or me or someone who commits suicide or anyone else for that matter.
I just find it funny how nihilists can hold a position, when their continued existence is a refutation of the position they hold.

Logical fallacies of the breeder :

> Don't you owe it to your ancestors to carry on your bloodline?
No. Why would I? Where did you get that idea? If I had children, I certainly wouldn't care if generations later one of my distant descendents decided not to coom in a pussy. Who in their right mind would care about this shit.

> You're so selfish, depriving someone the chance to be born!
Fucking retarded. That "person" doesn't exist unless I coom inside of a woman and create them . It's not like there is some cosmic SPCA of unborn children wailing for me to become their daddy. Even if there was, there are plenty of other prospective daddies around that the world can afford to lose this one.

>B. But don't you want to hear your child calling you daddy, to have someone running around that looks like you?
Weren't you just accusing me of being the selfish one? My god, how narcissistic do you have to be to want this?

>>18744033
Unfathomably based, OP.

Anti-natalism is cringe and completely selfish, childish even. You will never be truly an adult without being 100% responsible for someone outside of yourself.
Children have several developmental stages, to say they are pure hassle is hardly all of the story. A woman not getting pregante in her lifetime will become crazy. Many such cases. There is nothing more cringe than a woman that missed out on the essenence of femininity, motherhood. Imagine missing out on that unity, growing a life inside your belly, feeding it from thine bussoms.
Also, couples with teenage children report the highest levels of happiness. Antinatalists are scared of real life and scared of truly living. Being alive means to sacrifice. They try to turn their cowardice into a virtue by thinking not fulfillinging their genetic duty is somehow super commendable, meanwhile millions of brown people shit out retarded mystery-meat goblinos left and right that will never care about animals, the environment, recycling or any of that other "white people shit".

If you are white and end up childless on purpose you have been played by a jewish psyop. No two ways about it m'lads.

>>18744826
Funny how you as a follower of Spengler is spewing this rational bullshit when he himself believed that life is irrational and instinctual. It might be a surprise to you yes, people live with contradictory worldviews. If you wanna go on that route then a nihilist has no reason to live but he also has no reason to kill himself.

>>18744802
do you have kids?
why do all you militant anti-antinatalists never have kids?
I actually would like to have kids, I have explained it earlier
I just think it would be a horrible, short-sighted move.

>>18744334
>>18744313
What you wish for is a pet. The honeymoon period with kids ends as should as they hit puberty and turn into opinionated, hateful degenarates. Get a dog. They last like 15 years. You can cut off their balls or kill them if they get annoying.

>>18744841
>No. Why would I? Where did you get that idea? If I had children, I certainly wouldn't care if generations later one of my distant descendents decided not to coom in a pussy. Who in their right mind would care about this shit.
A better refutation would be that your ancestors have way more progeny than just you, and that their genes will pass on regardless of you having kids.
If you're a single child, and your parents were single children, then by not having kids you're only ending the bloodline of 2 people.

The other arguments are even shittier. The real reason you should have kids is that's the one universal purpose of humans. By refusing to do so you essentially lead a meaningless life.

>>18744852
>completely selfish
Yeah pooping a baby for your personal growth or to cure your loneliness or whatever other bullshit isn't selfish but not having children is selfish.

>>18744871
>You can cut off their balls or kill them if they get annoying.
You're a shitty person.
Yes I have rescued an animal but rescue animals are often too damaged to be happy. So after this one I'll have none.

>>18744872
The universal purpose of humans is building obelisks to Ra.

>>18744854
>If you wanna go on that route then a nihilist has no reason to live but he also has no reason to kill himself.
If life has no purpose or meaning, why continue living? What is the reason or purpose of doing so? The fact that nihilists do seems to indicate otherwise, and that they don't actually believe what they preach.
The only real nihilists are suicides anon.
>>18744862
I'm a genetic dead end. It still doesn't refute that the purpose of life is procreation. My own failure to do so doesn't negate the purpose.

>>18744852
>>18744662
>>18744463
>>18744334
>>18744313
>>18744192
>>18744045
>>18744058
>>18744125
>>18744163
Post your childrens right now. I'll bet a huge sum of money that neither of you is a father. You're a gigacoping megafaggot hyperbitch whinging at people calling out your life bullshit, probably a part of 4chan nu-christcucks, the most embarassing cancer to ever grace this website.

>>18744871
>What you wish for is a pet
For the love of God, whatever you do in life, don't be one of those pet parent people.
When I see people refer to themselves as dad or mom in relation to their pet, I get the desire to brutally murder them with a blunt instrument.

>>18744908
refer to
>>18744905
>I'm a genetic dead end. It still doesn't refute that the purpose of life is procreation. My own failure to do so doesn't negate the purpose.

>>18744908
>I'll bet a huge sum of money that neither of you is a father.
why the fuck did you quote my post lol no I am not a parent and I will never be
>>18744917
>pet parent people
I love animals but man I fucking hate these people and the typical narcissistic vegan type, you can see they don't give a fuck about animals from a mile away, they're only obsessed with looking holier than thou

>>18744905
Most of the things in life are instinctual you fucking retard. Like people who have kids don't read books to affirm their action. They just do it. It's the same with suicide, people do it at their instinctual feeling like a lightening thunder. As I have told that nihilist have no reason to live or die.

>>18744925
>purpose of life is procreation
I swear G-d this bullshit statement is thrown around by every p-zombie mongoloid as if it makes a sliver of sense. What the FUCK does it even MEAN to say that purpose of life is to...perpetuate life. Purpose is a definite, concrete, finite goal. The purpose of a knife isn't to be sharp, it's purpose is to cut things. You're like a retard who buys a knife and keeps sharpening it endlessly without ever cutting a damn thing with it. Your existence is masturbation, ironically.

>>18744841
>>B. But don't you want to hear your child calling you daddy, to have someone running around that looks like you?
>Weren't you just accusing me of being the selfish one? My god, how narcissistic do you have to be to want this?
If breeders were selfless they would be adopting orphans or some shit.

>>18744939
>They just do it.
yeah they also tell their kids "you weren't in the plans" when they don't take a six figures path

>>18744852
>Anti-natalism is cringe and completely selfish, childish even. You will never be truly an adult without being 100% responsible for someone outside of yourself.
There are plenty of orphans out there who need a loving family. Go spend the next 20 years looking after them.
But no, you have to shit out one of your own.

>>18744033
Want to know why they didn't have kids? Because they had more important duties occupying their minds. No one here has that.

>>18744939
Yes, but you don't arrive at nihilism by instinct, you arrive at it through thought. If life is meaningless and purposelessness, then the only logical next step is suicide.
So as I have told my dear anon, the continued existence of a nihilist refutes his position.

>>18744960
>There are plenty of orphans out there who need a loving family.
Not your blood.
Not your genes.
Adoption is a cope.

>>18744939
Humans don't have instincts. Learn some basic biology, faggot.

>>18744971
>>18744815

>>18744977
Yes, thanks for confirming having children is indeed selfish and not about "continuing life", "taking care of children" or some other cope bullshit.

>>18744980
Humans have instincts. Learn some basic philosophy, anon.

>>18744977
>Not your blood.
>Not your genes.
Neither will be your own childs. Thinking that you somehow pass anything but your superficial anatomical traits to your son is the real cope.

>>18744881
>>18744881
Yes, selfish. If your parents were as selfish and scared of sacrifice as you, you wouldnt exist to shit up this thread with your cringe-inducing opinion of a scared teen.

Your lineage goes back millions of years and now you sit here thinking you are bad-ass to make it come to an end. Peak cringe lmao. Also you didnt come up with this idea, it has been installed into your mind.
Another reason why you are selfish is that, in case you are white or asian, not having a child will make the world dumber. See, the problem is not that there are too many people, the problem is that there are too many STUPID people in this world. If you have the capacity to do something about and dont that makes you a selfish dumb little cunt. And nothing you and your ideologically possessed friends can do to alter this fact.

>>18744908
Such seethe, you alright there m8

>>18744977
Muh white race collectivism went out of the went pretty quickly, huh?

>>18744990
Humans are inherently selfish anon, that doesn't refute anything.

plebs

>>18744999
>Muh white race collectivism
That's a meme. More white people were killed by other white people than by other races.

>>18744998
Oh no not the lineage!

anyways

>>18744998
>>>/pol/

>>18744998
>hurrr durrr you end your lineage
World population was 1 billion people just 200 years ago. Now it's almost 8 billion. "Your genes" are out there, you're not ending anything.
You fags seem to think muh ancestors are all looking up to you to continue your super unique genes. They're out there in millions of other plebs just like you.

>>18745019
t. self-hating cuck

>>18745006
>you're selfish for having children
>no, i'm not
>here's a proof you're selfish
>yeah, well, humans are inherently selfish
Don't talk to me, retard.

>>18745035
How does selfishness refute anything though?

>Ha! At least I brought a kid into this world, take that incels!

>>18744998
Have you truly fucking seen the condition of this dumpster fire of """civilization"""? If you haven't then please spend a week on tik tok, Instagram and YouTube. Only dumb retards care about the future of hoomanity. Let all this shit crumble into dust, I don't care.
And what lineage bro? I don't know anything about my grandfather's father other than his name. We will also be forgotten in less than 100 years.

>>18745044
Because breeders are telling people who don't breed are "selfish" while in reality having a child is selfish.

>>18745065
You're both selfish.
Humanity is inherently selfish anon.
But one type of selfishness is fulfilling its purpose, while the other copes.

>>18745060
>And what lineage bro? I don't know anything about my grandfather's father other than his name. We will also be forgotten in less than 100 years.
Yeah, but 100 years from now some wageslave named John Smith will have 1/8 of YOUR GENES!

>>18745060
>>18745076
You're looking at it from the wrong angle. It's not about you. It's about the endless cycle.

Quick! Shit some more children, we need to fulfill our purpose in life!!!

>>18745027
So? World population will stabilize at around 9billion. Plenty of food for everyone. What you forget is how unique every single one of these humans is. We are all unique flowers on the same tree, pretty amazing dont you think, nig.

And but dude, its all good, you stop dat dere lineage of yours. No harm done. Imma produce more mini me's with my amazing wife, whom I love dearly and together we will continue to live the best years of our lives. Seriously, every year has been better than the last since we were together. There is not a single thing I would change about her.

>y-you're s-selfish!!111 you have breeeeeeed!!!!
Lmao breedkeks

>>18745076
Kek
It's not happening. I am having that fucking from the prison of flesh and petty hooman endeavours.

>>18745079
I don't remember shit before my birth. So I don't really care about endless cycle.

>>18745100
>I don't remember shit before my birth. So I don't really care about endless cycle.
Doesn't matter if you care about it. It ain't about you.

>>18745082
>born in 1987 when the world population was 5 billion
>if I die of old age in my 70s the world population would be over 20 billion
Do I really need to chip into this?

>>18745104
The world will collapse long before that anon. And if it doesn't you'll wish it had.

>>18745106
Collapse in near future is wishful thinking because you're sacred because of historical stasis.

>>18745106
I hope to live the remaining 40 years of my life (again, assuming death of old age) in a boring eventless time. After that everyone can start shooting nuclear bombs at each-other, fuck them. Would be especially funny if the grown children of some guy posting here get blown up in seconds by some Chinese drone.
>muh lineage
>BOOM

>>18745014
Dude has like a dozen kids and his last descendant died like a century after him.

So much for “muh genetic immortality”

>>18745060
Try living in a 3rd world country you pussy
>>18745065
Having a child is literally the opposite of selfishness but your indoctrinated mind cannot understand this. Poor soul.
>>18745104
No it wont rtard. It will stay around 9billion.


All you anti-natalists are so full of resentment its almost funny. Bunch of edgy teenies ITT. Grow up lmao.

>>18745140
>he doesn't understand how genes work

>>18745144
>all your grandchildren die without kids
>you don't understand genes
The fuck are you talking about?

>>18745079
>endless cycle
The entire span of the human race will be but a quiet, quick fart that the Universe won't notice or care about. The civilization existed for about 0.0001% of Earth life and will be gone just as quickly. What endless cycle are you talking about? In the grand scheme of things our species has less importance than a pimple on my ass.

There is something about becoming a serious academic that leads you to not care about love and kids. I just don't care to even try to date anymore, it's just all sidelined.

>>18745141
>Having a child is literally the opposite of selfishness
It is literally the most selfish thing a human can do because you want to continue YOUR genes. Not someone else's genes. YOURS. Couldn't get more selfish that this.

>>18745155
>he thinks humanity will die out
One day sure.
Not for a long time though.

>>18745168
Not that anon, but he's talking relatively to the Earth and the universe. 100k years is nothing.

>>18745174
And if humanity lasts for billions of years?

>>18745162
Sacrificing my time and money to care for a defenseless little thing, to nurture it, to read to it, to feed and clothe it, is not an action a selfish person would perform you dumb roastie.

>>18745178
We wouldn't remain human, assuming we survive

>>18745190
Having kids is fucking amazing, I'm going to the art store now to pickup some paint and brushes, going to do some drawing with my toddler. Creative time with your kids is great!

>>18745178
And if 500 years from now all humans will live in a hellish dystopia, subjected to horrifying pain, humiliation, experimented on, raped daily, thrown to the beasts to be eaten alive for the sick entertainment, and then forced to breed to produce more funny humans to have fun with? What have you say to these hypothetical people?
>Sorry guys I really felt like making babies, it gave me a dopamine boost :^)

>>18745168
A modern human life (80 years) is 0.000002% of the life on Earth. Humans are almost 8 billion right at this very second. You are nothing.

>>18744033
Bach - enough kids to give everyone on this list one kid and still having a few

>>18745141
>Try living in a 3rd world country you pussy
Kek, I am literally sitting in a 3rd world country right now. 1st world western countries at least offer some dignity in life but here it is only survival through wageslavery. Every other cunt wants to get rich despite living in a country in which social mobility rate is fuck all. Consoomerism is their only goal in their lives. Art and humanities are nonexistent. Try living in 3rd world and you will lose your Will-to-Live.

>>18745190
Yes, you're "sacrificing" all that for your child, which you chose to create.

>>18745199
>And if 500 years from now all humans will live in a hellish dystopia, subjected to horrifying pain, humiliation, experimented on, raped daily, thrown to the beasts to be eaten alive for the sick entertainment, and then forced to breed to produce more funny humans to have fun with? What have you say to these hypothetical people?
I believe that that's exactly what will happen (more or less), and I would tell them the same thing I'm telling you. Life and humanity will go on.

>>18745200
>it's all just random chaos with no rhyme or reason
>WHAAAAAAAAAAAAA
okay midwit.

The case I'd make for having a kid is to do it and have a first hand account of the next generation. I'm very much interested in how humans are progressing and what our world is turning into. Having offspring that you can help lead on a correct path and also see for yourself what they do differently is a cool prospect. I don't believe in this pessimistic dribble that humanity is worthless and meaningless. We're capable of building, and creating complex systems. Having a child can easily enrich your life, it's an entire new experience. Adding a negative value to having children when you haven't had one is also just as dumb as adding a positive value to having children when you haven't had one. So this argument I keep seeing from anti natalists makes no sense. Wallow in your own misery is the only truly pointless thing here.

>>18745207
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA THE ENDLESS AGONY OF EXISTENCE WHYYY WHY HAVE YOU CREATED US WHYYYYY?!
>heh...life and humanity will go on, bros, also not my problem I'm dead :D

>>18745190
your weekly reminder that you can do all that by adopting a "defenseless little thing" (:

>>18745203
>the major issue humanity faces is a material one
>not a spiritual one
>people don't wageslave in 1st world countries
yikes bro

>>18745205
I dont see any argument in your post.
What I can tho is that I am super happy my parents decided to give me life, if your not you should kill yourself.

Also none of these ideas and talking points are your own. Some hooknosed kike has been whispering this stuff into your ears. None of what you anti-natalist scaredy-cats have brought fourth was original. You just lapped that shit up and now you spew it all around like good little automatons. Just kys and live your values.

>>18745190
The child didn't ask for any of that shit though, YOU chose to shit it out in a self-indulgent moment of passion because you thought (if you were thinking at all, almost half of all births in this country are unplanned) what the world needed most in that moment was your very own clone. It's not "selfless" to care for your own things you narcissistic retard lmao.

>"look at how unselfish I am for daring to care for the thing I callously brought into the world!".

That's the bare minimum expectation you dumbfuck, you're not brave or a saint for cumming and then being forced by the state to feed and clothe the kid afterwards, and this kind of dumb mentality is probably why so many miserable fucks itt don't want to have kids, because they had retards for parents (like you)

>>18745224
>>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA THE ENDLESS AGONY OF EXISTENCE WHYYY WHY HAVE YOU CREATED US WHYYYYY?!
>>heh...life and humanity will go on, bros, also not my problem I'm dead :D
I'll never understand why people take such issue with suffering and can't accept that suffering is the fundamental purpose of life, perhaps even more so than procreation.
Even if you've never known suffering of any kind, you will get to witness the deaths of the people you love.
Transcend suffering you fucking weak ass niggers.

>>18745243
>da joos
Yeah, bro, I'm happy that you're creating life here. We wouldn't want to miss on those schizo 80 IQ genes for the next generation.

>>18745233
Wanna know how I know you are a woman?

>>18745190
It actually is. The only reason you're doing all of that is so that little bundle of your genes has a better chance at continuing your bloodline.
This is assuming you're a K strategist, not R.

>>18745268
Tourist nigger

>>18745200

>>18744033
bazat si rosupilat

>>18745238
Bro I am from one of the most so called religious countries. And here being religious means being a fundamentalist, there is no other option. You will be labelled a heretic if you argue against orthodoxy. This is what's been happen to all religion majority countries where material conditions are shit. Fundamentalism on top and consoomerism/capitalist values behind the scenes. There is no solution for this.

>>18744998
Funny how you mention whites and asians, two races with most declining birthrates. It's almost like humans with most capacity for self-reflection and philosophical questioning see procreation for the malevolent, disgusting ritual it is and opt out of it. No amount of high-octane coping from life affirming, drooling believers in the importance of shitting more sentience onto the planet would change the simple fact - antinatalism fucking won. Human race is wired to self-destruct. The nobler races willingly jump into oblivion, and soon in observable future there won't be any humans left by rapidly devolving brown troglodytes and a few schizophreic jewish masters contemplating if it was all worth it in the end. So you can shove your "who hurt you sweetie" type rhetoric up your gaping breeder asshole, because we're the winners, and you're a coper. Coperboi.

>>18745288
You're in the wrong board.

>>18745331
>There is no solution for this.
Never was.
>And here being religious means being a fundamentalist, there is no other option. You will be labelled a heretic if you argue against orthodoxy.
That's how it's supposed to be. Either religion has meaning, theology and dogma, or it's all willy nilly make it up as you go protestant tier shit.

>>18745363
Compare Persia in golden Islamic age with contemporary 3rd world Muslim countries. What do you see?

>>18745375
The endless cycle of the rise and fall of civilizations.

>>18745394
Hmm but I would say that in rise there was way less dogma. Today few of the greatest Islamic intellectual would be considered heretic and witch hunted.
There is a missing piece and I do think that disappearance of art/humanities and rise of fanatic dogmatism against intellectual speculation is the one.

>>18744826
if their concern is with suffering then isn't it consistent to notcause even more of that to your loved ones killing yourself, instead shouldering whatever amount of pain is built into your life yourself but not propagating it by having children
i'm not sure if that makes them nihilists though

>>18745339
>we're the winners
>dying out and being forgotten but it's ok because I'm somehow certain nonwhite races can't possibly survive on their own.
What makes people like this? What gets them to the point of fanatically hating something so essentially human as reproduction. Trans people are the only other group I can think of that are like this, an at least they have the resolve to mutilate and eventually kill the bodies they hate so much. All you do is run your mouth, kill yourself if you really think you know better than evolution.

>>18744852
you'll get to be responsible for your parents at some point of their long decline unless they're lucky enough to die early

>>18745427
Well one should be able to discuss theology and arrive at new dogma, the problem is prots now have gays, transgenders and female priests.
When a civilization is on the rise, by all means, discuss it. When it's falling, keep to the dogma.
>>18745445
But if they believe life is meaningless than their loved ones suffering won't matter.
That also implies that our loved ones are a meaning, if not the meaning.

>>18745339
>White and Asian
>Two populations in countries with the worst work/life balances around
>Thinks this all about anti-natalism

>>18745452
>>dying out and being forgotten
Bro, honestly, how many generations after you do you think your descendant will remember you? No, really, answer this.

>>18745452
>something so essentially human as reproduction
Reproduction isn't "human", all living things that made it through the trials of evolution learned how to self-replicate. Stop trying to assign some higher value to the act performed equally by humans, skunks, tapeworms, and cancer cells.

>>18745243
>Also none of these ideas and talking points are your own. Some hooknosed kike has been whispering this stuff into your ears. None of what you anti-natalist scaredy-cats have brought fourth was original.
that's why you read, basically no worthwhile position anyone holds on anything here is original

>>18745476
What else? I mean do your best and try not to be a schizo for 10 seconds and blame all ills of the world on the evil juden, and explain why developed nations nesting most intelligent people are giving up on procreating en masse unless the act of bringing humans no longer feels worthwhile.

>>18745514
So, yes, it is essential to being "human" as we found a way to self-replicate and that's how we've made a steady population to continue our intellectual, technological, and societal progress?

>>18744111
>>18744033
thanks for the list of incels to avoid

>>18744925
>purpose of life is procreation
No it isn’t you retard. At most you can say it’s our biological purpose but purpose itself is our own made up human word. A dog jumping some bitch doesn’t think “Oh fuck yeah, I’m fulfilling my purpose! My genetic legacy!” He just does it because he’s honey and wants to fuck something. From our perspective the purpose of a dog is to be a cute pet to keep you company.

The “purpose” of your life is whatever you want it to be, whether that’s having kids, creating art, building a business, making scientific breakthroughs, or even arguing with other retards on a Siberian tribal yak sniffing enthusiasts website.

>>18745544
>The “purpose” of your life is whatever you want it to be
Wrong. And painfully midwitish.

>>18745539
So why "human" and not "animal". Human as an adjective was always traditionally used to describe things divorced from the primitive beastly natures; things noble, symbolic, creative, inspired by motives other than basic needs to fulfill biologicall checkboxes. From this perspective, reproduction is anything but human, its a crude, gross mechanism of bringing more humans in there, like rectum being a crude mechanism of getting rid of bodily waste. A mere materialist concession.

>180 posts
>35 posters
I love you guys, you're so autistic. With your higher concepts and
>muh philosophy
/pol/ is the superior board btw

>>18745537
What's schizo about it retard?
As work become hard and occupies life more it affects all aspects of a fulfilling life, including hobbies, romantic pursuits, reproduction, and mental health.
This isn't some philosophical tide. It's the by definition mental illness, depression, gaining ground because of heavily work based societies.

>>18745563
>midwit
Nice way of saying you have no argument. I guess guys like Beethoven and Michelangelo lived a life without purpose according to you.

>>18745573
>oh god a group of people participating in a discussion by making multiple posts, didn't know you could do that, better point out my basic observation skills!

>>18745466
>But if they believe life is meaningless than their loved ones suffering won't matter.
you can take it as a bad thing for loved ones or people generally to be subjected to more pain (which maybe disqualifies you from absolute nihilism) while holding that there's no positive meaning to life for which it's worth introducing a child to the pain

>>18745595
>I guess guys like Beethoven and Michelangelo lived a life without purpose according to you.
They lived a life of rejection of their purpose.

>>18745588
Why doesn't work become hard and occupy all the things you listed for bumfuck poor as hell african countries where people breed like bunnies on steroids? Surely their economies are worse and their needs for comfort and career opportunities are worse than America or Japan, yet, they keep dumping more and more humans into the world. You don't get to call mental states ill just because they disagree with you.

>>18745616
>you can take it as a bad thing for loved ones or people generally to be subjected to more pain (which maybe disqualifies you from absolute nihilism) while holding that there's no positive meaning to life for which it's worth introducing a child to the pain
I don't wanna be that guy but, you're either a nihilist or you're not. You can't be a half way nihilist. Either life has meaning or it doesn't.
If one doesn't an hero because he wants to spare people pain, then one has found at least a modicum of meaning.

>>18745566
Your reductionist argument can be equally equated to other species as apes, dolphins, and even octopi have expressed signs of creativity, ingenuity, nobility, and pride.
You seem to ignore that birth and child raising is still seen highly among humans, not just for the "crude mechanism" but the experience of raising and loving a life of your own creation. An idea that can often be seen as spiritual.
You cannot create through mean of expunging bodily waste, merely removing unneeded excess. Birth on the other hand is by definition creation. You cannot remove the human part of our own experience with it.

>>18745644
room temp IQ take

>>18745673
Should be easy for you to prove me wrong then.

>>18745637
Because despite those harsh conditions, those countries experience closer family life. As we progress we have slowly removed that aspects that make a human life fulfilling. Even a long day at the farm with ten children has a closer family life than the mother or father spending 8-10 hours at an office chair.
>You don't get to call mental states ill just because they disagree with you
I don't
It's by definition an abnormal mental state that negatively affects full functionality in an individual,
Your philosophical pedantry won't change that

>>18745669
You missed my point entirely. The reason I compared childbirth to shitting is because both of them are done through purely materialistic means of physical action. Means employed by all other critters on the planet. If you could give birth to another human being by writing a beautiful poem, or carving a beautiful sculpture, or painting a masterpiece, then it would be fair to consider this sort of reproduction a uniquely 'human' act. Yet, none of the sculptures or painting of Dorian Gray ever came to life to hail their creators as parents, all things we make are stillborn unless we make them through the tried-n-true mechanism of penis in vagina. Like dogs.

>>18745573
>you're allowed only one post per thread

>>18745698
>those countries experience closer family life
Considering the average intelligence levels and education in these countries, that should tell you something about the value of "family life". Not to mention your pathetic strawmans of assuming that everyone who gives up on children is some overworked wagie. A lot of wealthy, nonworking people have no desire to rear up the family.

>>18745630
And yet they have been and will be remembered by far more people than anyone in your “genetic legacy” will remember you beyond your grandkids.

>>18744033
Is this list accurate?

>>18745644
can't you be nihilist about existence having a positive meaning that reconciles the suffering but out of that exact concern with suffering not want to inflict more
if you were truly nihilist and didn't care about suffering you wouldn't have a particular reason to kill yourself, care about the fate of your kids or despair with the world either, you just wouldn't care

>>18745770
>And yet they have been and will be remembered
Doesn't matter. They're dead.
>>18746443
A nihilist sees no meaning, which is to say no purpose, what is his motivation for living? He has none. But then, if he's alive as I've already said many times in this thread, he ain't really a nihilist.

>>18744033
Schopenhauer had kids, so did Evola

I've never felt the urge to procreate. If you want to, whatever.

>>18744209
>The problem is, some anons will use the anti natalist as a coping mechanism for their own shortcomings.

An issue that constantly comes up is how short-sighted people are, and this is also the case with the pro-natalist. Procreation -- intentional, anyway -- is a cope, as well. Immortalization is a death cope and the easiest way to achieve this is through procreation -- the most common "cope" reasoning is "lineage" or "purpose," but neither stave off death.

I am not meaning this as positive or negative, just that it is, in fact, coping just as much; or perhaps coping about one's death moreso than the anti-natalist, depending on their individual stance of their own mortality.

Also, poop.

>>18744825
She thought she was, but then she wasn't. I was fully prepared to become a father for about 3 days.

>>18747035
I guess it is a cope on some level. But it still achieves pseudo-immortality through the passing of genes.

>>18744033
Plato would disagree, if you have not created a child of the mind, then it is the greatest sin not to have procreated with a woman.

Man must always strive for procreation, to be a father of the good that will outlive you.

Read Symposium, Phaedrus and Laws.

>>18744033
Look man I haven't decided whether or not I want to have kids, but if I do its not going to be because of some pretentious high concept "gotta continue my species/genes" kind of reason. I'd rather not have kids at all than bring a new life into the world solely to fulfill some moral duty or higher calling. If I have kids it'll be for no higher reason than because I think being a father will be good experience or I think it's cool to have a little human made out of me running around. Is that selfish? Sure it is, and I don't care. I'm ok with being selfish. The world is selfish and I didn't ask to be born either. Is it unfair that I'm choosing for them, that I'm forcing them to accept existence and suffering instead of non-existence and no suffering? Yes it is, existence isn't fair, it just is. If they resent me for it and decide that it wasn't a fair trade then they are well within their rights to do so. But I'm going to do everything in my power as a parent to make life a good deal for them, cause if nothing else I owe it to them, as the one who forced them to exist, to make it a worthwhile experience.

>>18747238
>t. Fag

>>18747246
Bisexual master race actually. If I end up marrying a dude and deciding to have kids I'd probably adopt or go for a surrogate.

>>18744478
>not "sea kelp"
So fucking close, anon!

Friendly reminder that anti-natalism is a mental illness and cannot be justified by "logic" because that itself is unnatural

>>18747238
Godless homosexual

>>18744033
Socrates - 3 kids

>>18747752
He himself never had kids.

>>18747123
Plato himself had no kids

>>18747752
>The great turning point has come
And that's a good thing

>>18746850
Holy fucking shit man, you are obsessed with suicide way more than nihilists. Are you alright?

What I don't understand about anti-natalism is why some of those who follow it try to put the idea of consent towards nonexistant people.

The reasoning seems to be that, since there's a chance that person may end up not enjoying their life (or existence itself), that it's immoral to create them.
But to my mind this ignores the role one plays in finding a meaning of existence for themself. Because a theoretical person may find their life unfulfilling, they believe all life then must be meaningless and it's better to never give one the chance to exist and decide for themselves what their life means?
Although a lot of anti-natalists also seem to be depressed teenagers, so maybe it's just a phase.

>>18746933
>Schopenhauer had kids
There were no birth control methods available in those days and both of them died during infancy so it doesn't count.

>Evola
There is no evidence of Evola's kids besides a shitty letter he received from some far away cunt. He himself never confirmed that claim and never mentioned having kids. In Ride the Tiger he supported antinatalism.

>>18747779
So? Doesn't make him wrong.
Most philosophers tend to be overly neurotic and the typoes who rarely do, he was speaking as a historian making an observation (a correct one at that)

>>18744871
>You can cut off their balls or kill them if they get annoying.
Nowadays it is possible to do this with a kid, just turn him into a trannie, he will cut his balls and kill himself by his own

>>18744033
I was closing down the shop this evening amid smoky haze from the Canadian wildfires and fear porn about the delta variant. A simple human experience that it's an asshole behavior to sire offspring.

>muh game of life
You yourself don't "win the game of life" by procreating, that's an evolved cope. You die and rot in the ground like everyone else and condemn other conscious concatenations of atoms to the same fate through your carelessness. All care for the young is an irrational evolved delusion which is necessary to the individual organism. Parents commonly speak of wanting a better life for their children. Their priorities are misplaced; they ought instead to want a better life for themselves first of all, and only then help the children that they have condemned to exist. Same thing with the deeper happiness associated with delayed gratification. It is a false happiness, a mechanism whereby the organism deludes itself that it was better to have waited-not understanding that you can die at any moment and that is the obvious reason for the superiority of instant gratification, the proper and rational enjoyment of which is psychologically denied to the organism, if he has been socialized in a particular way, or else wrongfully intrinsic to his nature.

The man who plants a tree whose shade he knows he will never rest in, is not therefore wise.

>>18747800
Pessimism is a Perennial philosophy.

Wisdom Of Silenus:
>"You, most blessed and happiest among humans, may well consider those blessed and happiest who have departed this life before you, and thus you may consider it unlawful, indeed blasphemous, to speak anything ill or false of them, since they now have been transformed into a better and more refined nature. This thought is indeed so old that the one who first uttered it is no longer known; it has been passed down to us from eternity, and hence doubtless it is true. Moreover, you know what is so often said and passes for a trite expression. What is that, he asked? He answered: It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is better to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony. Pertinently to this they say that Midas, after hunting, asked his captive Silenus somewhat urgently, what was the most desirable thing among humankind. At first he could offer no response, and was obstinately silent. At length, when Midas would not stop plaguing him, he erupted with these words, though very unwillingly: 'you, seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why do you compel me to tell you those things of which it is better you should remain ignorant? For he lives with the least worry who knows not his misfortune; but for humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature's excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can.' It is plain therefore, that he declared the condition of the dead to be better than that of the living."

Hegesias of Cyrene, Death by Starvation:
>The book was called Death by Starvation or The Death-Persuader. According to the Roman orator Cicero (lived 106 – 43 BC), the entire book was essentially an argument for why everyone should just give up on life and kill themselves.

Ecclesiastes 4:1
>Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed-- and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors-- and they have no comforter.
Ecclesiastes 4:2
>And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.
Ecclesiastes 4:3
>But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.


THE DIALOGUE OF PESSIMISM, MESOPOTAMIAN WISDOM
>What then is good? To have my neck and yours broken, Or to be thrown into the river, is that good?
>Who is so tall as to ascend to heaven? Who is so broad as to encompass the entire world?

First Two Noble Truth of Buddhism:
>dukkha (suffering, incapable of satisfying, painful) is an innate characteristic of existence in the realm of samsara;
>samudaya (origin, arising) of this dukkha, which arises or "comes together" with taṇhā ("craving, desire or attachment")

Teaching my kids to paint and they can already write some words in cursive. Kids are sooooo much fun and they truly keep you young and happy. The men who complain about having kids or hate being parents are either:
>9-5 wagies who come home and have a shitty wife that does nothing, so the kids are all out-of-control
>men who simply want to pleasure chase and see no value in cultivating strong, smart, healthy and happy children to enrich their lives in the long term

Most people here are probably not into kids because the financial outlook in modern times means that most young "men" in 2021 will never be able to fulfill any of their Maslow's pyramid enough to WANT to transfer their experience and wisdom to their children.

>>18747817
How also said this >>18744503 I have already had a conversion with an anon. Nonetheless he himself said that the decision against procreation is a sign of intelligence.

>>18747752
>>18747779
>>18747790
The full quote:

>When the ordinary thought of a highly cultivated people begins to regard "having children" as a question of pro's and con's, the great turning-point has come. For Nature knows nothing of pro and con. Everywhere, wherever life is actual, reigns an inward organic logic, an "it," a drive, that is utterly independent of waking-being, with its causal linkages, and indeed not even observed by it. The abundant proliferation of primitive peoples is a natural phenomenon, which is not even thought about, still less judged as to its utility or the reverse. When reasons have to be put forward at all in a question of life, life itself has become questionable. At that point begins prudent limitation of the number of births. In the Classical world the practice was deplored by Polybius as the ruin of Greece, and yet even at his date it had long been established in great cities; in subsequent Roman times it became appallingly general. At first explained by the economic misery of the times, very soon it ceased to explain itself at all. And at that point, too, in Buddhist India as in Babylon, in Rome as in our own cities, a man's choice of the woman who is to be, not mother of his children as amongst peasants and primitives, but his own "companion for life," becomes a problem of mentalities. The Ibsen marriage appears, the "higher spiritual affinity" in which both parties are "free"--free, that is, as intelligences, free from the plantlike urge of the blood to continue itself, and it becomes possible for a Shaw to say "that unless Woman repudiates her womanliness, her duty to her husband, to her children, to society, to the law, and to everyone but herself, she cannot emancipate herself." The primary woman, the peasant woman, is mother. The whole vocation towards which she has yearned from childhood is included in that one word. But now emerges the Ibsen woman, the comrade, the heroine of a whole megalopolitan literature from Northern drama to Parisian novel. Instead of children, she has soul-conflicts; marriage is a craft-art for the achievement of "mutual understanding". It is all the same whether the case against children is the American lady's who would not miss a season for anything, or the Parisienne's who fears that her lover would leave her, or an Ibsen heroine's who "belongs to herself"--they all belong to themselves and they are all unfruitful. The same fact, in conjunction with the same arguments, is to be found in the Alexandrian, in the Roman, and, as a matter of course, in every other civilized society--and conspicuously in that in which Buddha grew up. And in Hellenism and in the nineteenth century, as in the times of Lao-Tzu and the Charvaka doctrine, there is an ethic for childless intelligences, and a literature about the inner conflicts of Nora and Nana.

Even an anti-natalist cannot refute this observation

>>18747844
Does he define "Nature"?

>>18747844
I am not going to read some bullshit which starts with """muh nature""". If it's "unnatural" to not procreate then it is also "unnatural" to write books, do math, think about things, make civilizations etc.

>>18747844
>>When the ordinary thought of a highly cultivated people begins to regard "having children" as a question of pro's and con's, the great turning-point has come. For Nature knows nothing of pro and con. Everywhere, wherever life is actual, reigns an inward organic logic, an "it," a drive, that is utterly independent of waking-being, with its causal linkages, and indeed not even observed by it. The abundant proliferation of primitive peoples is a natural phenomenon, which is not even thought about, still less judged as to its utility or the reverse. When reasons have to be put forward at all in a question of life, life itself has become questionable. At that point begins prudent limitation of the number of births. In the Classical world the practice was deplored by Polybius as the ruin of Greece, and yet even at his date it had long been established in great cities; in subsequent Roman times it became appallingly general. At first explained by the economic misery of the times, very soon it ceased to explain itself at all. And at that point, too, in Buddhist India as in Babylon, in Rome as in our own cities, a man's choice of the woman who is to be, not mother of his children as amongst peasants and primitives, but his own "companion for life," becomes a problem of mentalities. The Ibsen marriage appears, the "higher spiritual affinity" in which both parties are "free"--free, that is, as intelligences, free from the plantlike urge of the blood to continue itself, and it becomes possible for a Shaw to say "that unless Woman repudiates her womanliness, her duty to her husband, to her children, to society, to the law, and to everyone but herself, she cannot emancipate herself." The primary woman, the peasant woman, is mother. The whole vocation towards which she has yearned from childhood is included in that one word. But now emerges the Ibsen woman, the comrade, the heroine of a whole megalopolitan literature from Northern drama to Parisian novel. Instead of children, she has soul-conflicts; marriage is a craft-art for the achievement of "mutual understanding". It is all the same whether the case against children is the American lady's who would not miss a season for anything, or the Parisienne's who fears that her lover would leave her, or an Ibsen heroine's who "belongs to herself"--they all belong to themselves and they are all unfruitful. The same fact, in conjunction with the same arguments, is to be found in the Alexandrian, in the Roman, and, as a matter of course, in every other civilized society--and conspicuously in that in which Buddha grew up. And in Hellenism and in the nineteenth century, as in the times of Lao-Tzu and the Charvaka doctrine, there is an ethic for childless intelligences, and a literature about the inner conflicts of Nora and Nana.

Goddamn I really need to read Decline. I've been putting it off for too long.
Also can someone post this on r/antinatalism and r/childfree?

>>18744033
The amount of french people on that list is annoying

>>18747859
Books, math, thinking about things and creating civilization are all there precisely for the purpose of procreation though.
Everything man does, he does out of a desire to pass on his genes.
Perhaps the only human endeavors that aren't directly or indirectly linked to procreation are art and philosophy.

>>18747883
That wasn't my point. All of these cultural and intellectual things are absolutely unnecessary if the sole purpose is procreation. For procreation the only things that matters are eating, sleeping and fucking. Nothing more than that. Just look at animal kingdom.

>>18747910
>That wasn't my point. All of these cultural and intellectual things are absolutely unnecessary if the sole purpose is procreation. For procreation the only things that matters are eating, sleeping and fucking. Nothing more than that. Just look at animal kingdom.
The animal kingdom would probably do things the same as us if they had consciousness.

>>18747848
He describes the state of affairs in a natural society pretty clearly in the quote, hard to get more semantical than that

>>18747859
>If it's "unnatural" to not procreate then it is also "unnatural" to write books, do math, think about things, make civilizations etc.
This is correct.
Spengler makes a similar observation, might try finding the quote later. "Great Men" are necessary, but the average person is meant to focus on raising a family and living a dutiful life. Nature requires midwits (not the overly neurotic types like I said)

>>18747917
>The animal kingdom would probably do things the same as us if they had consciousness.
Yes, consciousness is the difference between us and "nature". Even without these cultural things the animals still procreate and they're far better at it than humans so it refute your point.

>>18747943
>so it refute your point
I really don't see how it does that.

>>18747943
Then why are they going extinct?

>>18747945
My point was about natural and unnatural. The procreation goes on even in wild tribes of human beings. They just hunt, eat, fuck and sleep. So no culture isn't necessary for procreation.

>>18747946
Why is this a fucking question?
Due to human intervention. Do you really think that animals are willing refusing to have sex? Fucking kek

>>18747917
Considering having a family and procreation were the main drives of man for most of human history I would say the "animals" who did that would be outliers

>>18747946
What are you 12

>>18747964
So you think that animals don't have sex for pleasure?

>>18747982
How are for pleasure and sex for procreation mutually exclusive? And why does pleasure have anything to do with this? Even most people who don't want or have kids have sex
I don't see your point here

>>18747982
(You)

>>18747982
>So you think that animals don't have sex for pleasure?
And you think they do?

>>18747883
>>18747910
>>18747917
>>18747943
>>18747946
>>18747964
>>18747977
>>18747982
>>18747992
>>18747994
>>18747998
Fucking Kek
This is a meme worthy conservation

>>18748011
Put me in the screencap bro.

>>18747825
Interesting, though I still don't agree with it it's good to know that those in the past are much better at articulating their ideas than most people on the internet.

>>18747844
This is the kind of deep think that would be laughed at and disregarded as /pol/tarded if it wasn't written by a boomer with a book.

>>18747123
Plato also despised the idea of family and suggested children to be raised by the state. Even he saw personal procreating as a selfish way of compensating for being a failure in all other ways.

>>18748215
>boomer with a book.
I am not a poltard but stop acting like twitter subhuman

>>18744905
>I'm a genetic dead end.
Every fucking time. The more they seethe about antinatalists the more of a KHV chinlet they are.

>>18748230
this is what makes schizos the best people, they are neither poltarded or subhuman, simply schizo without being able to help themselves. Raw honesty.
>a toast to the schizoids

>>18747883
>Everything man does, he does out of a desire to pass on his genes.

What makes you think so?

>>18747238
>the world is selfish

???? you are completely evil btw

>>18745088
100 years from now we will be all dead, and Earth will flourish once again in peace.

>>18744947
>What the FUCK does it even MEAN to say that purpose of life is to...perpetuate life.
Life has no purpose. Life is the ENABLING condition for things to have purposes (the eye can't see itself). If you don't perpetuate life, you are extinguishing all the purposes.

>>18747787
His philosophy is literally a child.

>>18748225
You can't take everything Plato says in the Republic to be his own opinion, especially later in his life.

I've never seen Plato describe procreation as selfish, only positively look at it as aspiring to the immortal in the Symposium.

>>18744033
>procreation is good for the society
>bad for the individual
Simple as

>>18744033
>never be born
>dont get to experience anything even pain
i'd rather experience the worst than nothing at all, anti-natalist fags sre simply hiding their inability to have children behind being a pseud

>>18745014
Holy based.
Get 'em, Bach!

>>18747998
Lions and ducks have MONSTER cocks that hurt the female. Both are known to rape. Penguins have romantic courtship, chivalry and melodrama

>>18748804
how many kids do you have

>>18748804
You would rather subject yourself to the worst possible physical torture that lasts for eternity rather than simply not exist? You would be screaming for it to end within 10 seconds you fucking retard, go put your hand on the stove if you think differently

there's no sense in arguing with these people. they want to die. that's literally it. whatever gay "philosophy" this is is a mask for their self hatred and suicidality. if you try to make it more complicated than that you lost

>>18748804
that's easy to say while you're not experiencing the worst
and people from higher socioeconomic status typically have fewer children and are more likely to have none despite being positioned better to take care of them than the poor who have the most children

>Beauvoir - no kids

Hmm

>>18746850
>But then, if he's alive as I've already said many times in this thread, he ain't really a nihilist.
he has no reason to kill himself either though
on the other hand an antinatalist who's concerned with the suffering built into life (and so isn't a complete nihilist) and abstains from having children for that reason has very good reason to avoid causing suffering to other people through his suicide as well

>>18744393
I don't want children either, but I want to become a rescue animal rehabilitator and have more pets. I want a parrot and dog after my cats, and I also want to rescue crows.

>>18750066
Bro please read Schopenhauer. He is the philosophers for kind beings like you.

>>18750077
>Bro please read Schopenhauer.
I already have. I like him a lot.

I tend to be more of a dualist rather than a monist though. I think it's because I consider painting a purer expression of the Will rather than music.

>>18750200
>monist
Nah bro Schopenhauer isn't a monist. Have you read The World as Will and Representation?

>>18744192
Literally nobody cares

>>18750233
He's a nondualist.

>>18750066
I love animals in the sense that I am compassionate toward them, I don't eat meat etc. but I don't like the idea of filling my life with pets. I think it's kind of juvenile. In this form they're obviously surrogates for human contact and no matter how I like animals the kind of contact you can have with them does not go that deep. There's no mystical, between the lines secret understanding between you and your dog or a gorilla. It's all pointless anthropomorphization.
That's my 2c of course, personally I'll go full hermit mode and learn to live completely alone.

>>18750317
Do you have the Will to do this anon?
I also want to do this.

>>18750334
>Do you have the Will to do this anon?
No, I'm going to break. I already talk to myself all the time.

>>18750317
It would have been better if pets were never domesticated in the first place, but given they have been domesticated, I think people have a personal responsibility towards them, at least to the best they do. I don't think euthanizing all pets is the answer.
While I sympathize with your views to a large extent, I disagree there is no "mystical, between the lines secret understanding". Mammals and birds are highly self-aware, and dismissing their more human-like sentient characteristics is called "Anthropodenial". For example, look up "sniff test of self-recognition" for dogs, which proves they have a "theory of mind" / metacognitive awareness. Also, there is a Western tradition of high art involving anthropocentic animals (e.g., Racey Helps, Beatrix Potter, Jill Barklem, etc.), so I don't see the value in completely dismissing it.
Granted, I still agree with you breeding animals for companionship or work is unethical, but I will reiterate, once that happens I think bearing some degree of responsibility is best.

>>18750339
I remember Eugene Thacker wrote that pessimists are failed mystics. This is a funny because it is true. I lurk on Pessimism subreddit after every week or so and there are many anons just like us who want to go ascetic mode but fail.

>>18750350
>>18750317
>they do
they can do*

Also, I didn't mention how domestic cats are invasive species. I think it should be illegal for cats to be let to roam outside, and I think all breeding of them should be outlawed.

I would prefer money to go to facilities that let cats live out their lives in peace before going extinct. There could be jobs created of capturing, spaying/neutering, and releasing cats inside these facilities. I am against outright killing them though.

>>18750286
Yes but he isn't a monist in the strict sense. Please Bernardo Kastrup's book on Schopenhauer.

>>18750361
>. I am against outright killing them though.
I'm not, cats are a disease

>>18750379
I should have just said nondualist in the beginning. His double-aspect theory is what leads to the nondualism. I had a German friend who knew multiple languages and lectured about Schopenhauer a lot to me. I've read him a good deal too.
Bryan Magee is a good source too.

>>18750253
I guarantee you look like a goblin

>>18750389
Cats wouldn't have been a problem if people didn't domesticate them and move them to non-native habits.
Besides cats, house sparrows are equally a big problem fyi.
If anything, mankind is the disease. If we're going off the metric of ecological sustainability, then it's mankind that's the problem.
It wasn't the house sparrows who came here, on their own volition, slaughtering native bluebirds in massive numbers.

>>18750408
Post face

>>18750350
>I don't think euthanizing all pets is the answer.
Oh no that's a weird take. It's perfectly OK to have a dog. I was just criticizing the idea of using pets so you're not 100% alone when you decide to go monk mode, or in general as a surrogate for human contact.
Pretty sure the dog himself also benefits if you have a family instead of being stuck with a depressed nutcase 24/7

>>18750389
>I'm not, cats are a disease
it's human beings who are a cancer, go shoot some people if you care about birds you bloodthirsty trigger-happy child

>>18750400
Hmm that's cool.

How do you justify antinatalism as a Dualist?

>>18750442
I'm personally childfree, not an antinatalist.
I've been married for over 10 years while deciding not to have a child.
Justifying antinatalism isn't philosophically easy.

>>18750471
Cool, Zapffe and Cioran were also married but never had kids.

>Justifying antinatalism isn't philosophically easy.
How so?

>>18750471
Guarantee you and your wife look like goblins, literally no point to getting married without kids you absolute cucked faggot.

>>18750419
>>18750408
When did /lit/ turn into r/lookism? Go back to /soc/ niggers

>>18750505
Not that anon but I urge you to post physique

>>18750505
Stop being jealous of that anon you resentful goblin. And age happens to everybody and I wonder how the fuck you will cope when your youth will start decaying.

>>18750514
Incels from /r9k/ and /pol/, of course.

>>18750489
Because it involves making normative claim that subverts itself much of the time.
A lot of antinatalists argue life is meaningless, therefore you shouldn't have kids. If life is meaningless, then suffering is meaningless too and can't be used to argue one ought not to have kids.
Unless you are a Gnostic (e.g., like Mani) who views the material world as evil, which harms one's living soul, then I don't know how one can justify antinatalism.

I don't personally want children because I think mankind, as a whole, tends to lean towards evil. We don't live in a happy Harvest Moon-like town or world. Also, there are certain experiences that would make one wish he were never born (e.g., being abducted by serial killer), and I don't want to gamble with another being's life by putting that risk on them.

>>18750533
>everyone i don't like is /pol/

>>18750514
>When did /lit/ turn into r/lookism?
if you say something that a zoomer dislikes ge visualizes you as one of the wojaks, the /pol/ chud, incel with no chin, etc.

>>18750552
>Also, there are certain experiences that would make one wish he were never born (e.g., being abducted by serial killer)
no need for a serial killer all you need is a shitty job

>>18750552
>I don't personally want children because I think mankind, as a whole, tends to lean towards evil.
Precisely this.

"Wherefore child-making is a very great and a most pious thing in life for them who think aright, and to leave life on earth without a child a very great misfortune and impiety; and he who hath no child is punished by the daimones after death."

--Corpus Hermeticum

>>18750581
>>18747825

>>18747238
You can't make it a worthwhile experience, sorry. I have amazing parents, I genuinely do, but that only makes life even more difficult. Now I get to watch people I love and care for more than anything wither and die and there's nothing I can do to stop it. I think about it every day. I fret over them getting older and becoming ill. My life is worry 24/7 thanks to almost overwhelming love.

>>18750526
I'm in my 40's, life is awesome because I have kids and fucked 100's of bitches in my 20's

>>18750924
>Said the faggot on 4chan
I believe you.

>>18750924
are you the book shill faggot schizo?

>>18744033
>Nietzhe
>Schopenhauer
please re think your choises before posting this list.

>>18750934
Fucked more bitches than you, incel

I bet you don't even have any exes to show off, hahaha

>>18750581

Religion, like the state, needs fresh bodies in order to keep its bullshit system going. This is why they hate opting out so much-it starves the parasite of fresh hosts.

They even hate that you successfully cheat god. By "refusing" to breed (I know I know, but let's say the man has a choice, just for discussion), the man is good because he refuses to ensoul new human beings who stand a pretty good chance of going to hell.

>>18750987
>organized religion
>hermeticism
lol

>>18750581
>old book say breed
>I must listen book

>>18750944
lmao hello sad fuck
I never had to pay my exes to have sex with me

>>18750552
This is silly. Former theist arguments rely on view existence in its totality: if existence is good, man, part of existence, must be so too; yet on this argument being 'good' equally applies to all other existent things. Conversely, if we're operating on something like Schopenhauer's pessimism, then existence is bad, and thus all existent things are bad. (Though, remember, Schopenhauer derived this the other way around; first the will is bad>there is only the will>the thing that the will operates on, the universe, is bad.)

You can't maintain that humans are uniquely evil on their own; you have to make a similar assertion towards all things.

Also I believe you derive the anti-natalist position improperly; my flow chart looks like:
There is no God, or, if there is, he isn't good, thus utilitarianism because there is only pleasure as a measuring stick > humans tend towards a state of slightly below neutral, as in, they are normally in a state of moderate pain, with pleasure being necessarily brief and only capable of ameliorating that pain > thus negative-utilitarianism (avoidance of pain being given a preference over pleasure) > thus all existence is predominantly pain and the only good in it, the pleasure, is supremely outweighed by the pain > thus all existence is bad and should be extirpated.

My personal take however is that it's impossible; we are on one wild ride, of the same quality as all other existent beings, even non-sentient ones, and it is quite impossible to stop. Humans shall bring about their own destruction (as all things do) and we progress to the next stage, whatever that may be.

>>18744156
>euler
>nigger
kek

>>18751524
meant to reply to him
>>18744153

>>18751022
>not believing in god or the wisdom of the sages
since when did /lit/ get so normie