/lit/ - Literature

what should i worship instead

>>18817068
Unironically the bible when Jesus refuses to help the woman because she wasn't Jewish, even insults her.
I never bought any of the explanations justifying that, it's a Jewish god calling you a nigger.

>>18818266
where can i find this in the bible?

>>18818187
Money.

>>18817068
>where can the bait bait shit and bait

>>18818272
Matthew 15:21-28

Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

He then "rewards her for her faith" and heals her after she insults her people enough for Israel's liking. This was the first moment I remember walking out of class and thinking what the fuck did I just hear, was Jesus just racist to me? And there's no convincing argument that justifies this. It's an Israeli god, it's not meant for us.

>>18818266
Ignoring context
Matthew 15:21-28
>And Jesus went from thence, and retired into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And behold a woman of Canaan who came out of those coasts, crying out, said to him: Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David: my daughter is grieviously troubled by the devil. Who answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying: Send her away, for she crieth after us: And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel. But she came and adored him, saying: Lord, help me. Who answering, said: It is not good to take the bread of the children, and to cast it to the dogs. But she said: Yea, Lord; for the whelps also eat of the crumbs that fall from the table of their masters. Then Jesus answering, said to her: O woman, great is thy faith: be it done to thee as thou wilt: and her daughter was cured from that hour.
Judges 10:11-16
>And the Lord said to them: Did not the Egyptians and the Amorrhites, and the children of Ammon and the Philistines, The Sidonians also and Amalec and Chanaan oppress you, and you cried to me, and I delivered you out of their hand? And yet you have forsaken me, and have worshipped strange gods: therefore I will deliver you no more: Go and call upon the gods which you have chosen: let them deliver you in the time of distress. And the children of Israel said to the Lord: We have sinned, do thou unto us whatsoever pleaseth thee: only deliver us this time. And saying these things, they cast away out of their coasts all the idols of strange gods and served the Lord their God: and he was touched with their miseries.

>>18818311
There's always some excuse isn't there? You can watch Jesus allow a woman's daughter to die because she isn't the right tribe for him to heal, and you'll still make some shit up as to why he's totally a universal god who can't do any wrong.

>>18818311
>You can watch Jesus allow a woman's daughter to die
That's not what happened

>>18818338
meant for >>18818331

>>18818338
Yeah because he changed his mind, but only after she compared the Canaanites to dogs begging for Israel's scraps. Until she did that, he was off to walk away and his disciples just wanted her gone because she was bothering them.

Nobody ITT has an answer for Jesus healing the Centurion's servant, do they?

>>18818365
Literal iqlet

>>18818426
There's nothing to get here. You guys just whip out the "it's a test" answer whenever shit happens that you can't give a good answer to. Jesus doesn't help you because you're the wrong race? Oh it's a test, just humiliate yourself enough and he might spare your kids.

Start with the Assmann, egyptologist Jan Assmann

>>18817068
>our ancestors were so wise
>but not wise to adopt Christianity
You make a mistake in discounting their wisdom in culturally appropriating the enlightening religion of Jesus.

>>18818445
why did jesus continually tell the chief rabbis that the God of the Jews would be taken from them and made universal for all nations if the gospels weren't meant to be universal though?

Jesus also healed a Roman General's servant or something too.

I agree though the story of Jesus telling the woman to fuck off is a little jarring, but if Christianity were simply a Jewish psyop for the goyim, why would they leave that story in there then?

>>18818470
They didnt.
Christian bishops manoeuvred into powerful positions in the Roman empire while pagans were a majority. They implemented policies beneficial to them slowly over time, despite being a minority of the population. The entire state apparatus around the emperor gradually became pro-Christian even though the general population was pagan. By the time Julian converted back to paganism, the entire state had so much momentum that the emperor trying to restore the original gods couldn't do much. Monks were destroying pagan temples and despite that being against the wishes of the Roman populace and in many cases a violation of Roman law, they had the support of powerful bishops who could use them like shock troops against the pagan Romans without this being official policy.
This should sound pretty familiar, especially given current events.
Then after pagans had become a tiny minority, the state waited a bit longer until they were so small any ability to push back was gone, and only then did they implement official persecution.
Christianity in Europe was heavily top-down, and pushed on people who largely didn't ask for it.

>>18818488
I just don't think it makes any sense, honestly. Jesus seems like a nice enough person aside from this story, but the bible honestly seems like a book which has been selectively edited and just isn't a coherent story anymore.
Besides which, didnt one of the disciples then say that the original tribe was like the original tree and would be welcomed even more than converts to christianity who were like grafts?

>>18818470
>convert to our religion or we'll kill you
Sounds like a very wise decision.
All the things people admire about christianity come from the european elements. The art is the mixture of christianity with the greco-roman style. The conquering is almost explicitly against christianity, and comes from Europe just being incredibly militaristic. Meanwhile other christian cultures are entirely unremarkable.

>>18818493
This is basically just SJW historical revisionism for online neo-pagans. It's far more complicated than any of this

>The entire state apparatus around the emperor gradually became pro-Christian even though the general population was pagan. By the time Julian converted back to paganism, the entire state had so much momentum that the emperor trying to restore the original gods couldn't do much.
The Roman state had been toying with Christianity because it was already popular and they were looking for a monotheistic religion they could centralize to stand up against Orthodox-Zoroastrianism in in Persia, which they feared

>Monks were destroying pagan temples and despite that being against the wishes of the Roman populace and in many cases a violation of Roman law, they had the support of powerful bishops who could use them like shock troops against the pagan Romans without this being official policy.
Theophilus came to power as pope despite not even being a Christian himself and assembled his own paramilitary of "monks" who weren't even Christians themselves either. They simple went around destroying their political enemies, which also included Christians.
>This should sound pretty familiar, especially given current events.
Yes, this is how petty political infighting between power-driven materialists at the end of an empire goes. "Whoa dude, antifa is literally neo-christianity!!!"

>Then after pagans had become a tiny minority, the state waited a bit longer until they were so small any ability to push back was gone, and only then did they implement official persecution.
Political move to guard itself against Persian Orthodox Neo-Zoroastrianism which the Roman state was horrified of because it was being led by a madman who was demolishing his own temples

>Christianity in Europe was heavily top-down, and pushed on people who largely didn't ask for it.
Many people naturally converted to Christianity because of it's antithetical message to ancient Paganism about egalitarianism as a way to "Own the libz" in an ancient sense against elites who were decadent circle jerkers. Christianity consequentially came with a wave of anti-imperialism against Roman Globohomo, which is partially why the Roman Catholic Church wanted to establish itself to control the narrative. Also, many Euros naturally converted after experiencing Catholic Mass. And no, I'm not a Catholic.

Should also be noted that many Christians and Pagans were friends and even attended the same Neo-Platonic universities together. Much of the Christian vs. Pagan shit is astroturfed from unironic j00z in the 1800's

>>18817068
Never did, even as a child I knew you had to be at least a weee bit retarded to believe that ridiculous nonsense

>>18818540
Yeah of course it's more complicated, obviously it didnt come out of nowhere but christianity wasnt just spontaneously adopted by europe because they realised how wise it was. That's a ridiculous way of looking at it, and a lot of christianity's success was in fact due to state power.
>Theophilus
Yeah, that's kind of the point. Early Christianity was heavily tied to political opportunists in Rome.
>Yes, this is how petty political infighting between power-driven materialists at the end of an empire goes. "Whoa dude, antifa is literally neo-christianity!!!"
Again, yes. It was pure power politics. Same as what is going on now, same as what's happened many other times in history.
>Political move to guard itself against Persian Orthodox Neo-Zoroastrianism which the Roman state was horrified of because it was being led by a madman who was demolishing his own temples
Yeah, again, Christianity being pushed for solely political purposes, not some wise ancestors figuring out it was so much better than other religions.

I agree with the last couple of paragraphs, and yeah Christian-pagan friendships were obviously a big part of why changes were slow. The main point isn't really any different though. If anything you've given more examples of Christianity being pushed for any reasons but religious ones.

>>18817068
The Holy Bible

>>18818308
Except the Logos is bigger than Jesus, and He was partially ignorant of It. This moment was also rectified in a later scene, which occurred to me in a dream.

>>18818266
See, it's okay because Paul wrote some fanfiction that retroactively negates this.

>>18818583
Well my main point is that there's a major disconnect from what's happening on the ground among normal people, and what's happening in the state. Just because Christianity was picked up for a political tool doesn't mean that it's fake or that people didn't organically like it. If anything that's proof that they DID organically like it, the state just needed to tweak a few things to make it friendly to political centralization.

Yes, the Roman state picked up Christianity and made it into the Roman Catholic Church which was a centralized, and this meant they persecuted all Christian communities who didn't want to join the state-church. AKA, actual Christians. Paganism did the same thing when they centralized the temples in the city and out of the family-structure.

>If anything you've given more examples of Christianity being pushed for any reasons but religious ones.
Nothing the state has ever pushed has ever been for any reasons other than pure power and materialism. That doesn't mean that Christianity isn't true or that people didn't organically like it.

The state simply picks things it that it can use

Does anyone ITT actually believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

>>18818669
yes
>inb4 bbbbbut these other cults where people killed themselves because the leader said so
not a good comparison. according to the apostles, jesus was killed, rose from the dead, appeared to them, and then ascended to heaven. when the apostles went around preaching christ, christ wasn't walking the earth. they couldn't point to him over there to answer any specific question about the faith. most of the apostles were martyred. when they were martyred, jesus wasn't there in the flesh, looking at them, and telling them that they need to be killed for him.

>>18818696

>he doesn't know that the gospels are not first-hand, direct-witness accounts

oh nonononono

>>18818706
>it's fake, Dr. Malachi Globowitz told me so!
Yeah bud, gonna take God's side on this one.

>>18818706
John is.

>>18818669
Yes

>>18818445
It's a simple story showing the Jews, which the Gospel of Matthew was aimed at, that one is saved thru FAITH alone. The one had faith and so she was saved, if the Jews despite all their laws and practices lack faith, they're doomed. Simple as.

The sun and the ocean are the highest deities, the mountains and lakes are lesser deities, and plants animals and fungi are different forms of the same spiritual matter as humans. It's really not that complicated

>>18818187
socialist utopia

>>18818308
But Canaan are also a semetic people. I don't know if you're european or arabian but I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with racism and has to do with prophetic autism

>>18818902
>But Canaan are also a semetic people
No, Semites are the children of Shem, Canaan is a son of Ham

>>18818916
Oh... are you a negro? Maybe it really was racism sorry. Go worship a tree or something

>>18818382
> they don't

>>18818931
No, I'm pretty white. Semites are the children of Shem. Canaanites are the children of Canaan, son of Ham

>>18818991
Both Shem and Ham are sons of Noah, so they can't really be different races, can they?

>>18818902
What does calling someone from a different tribe a "dog" have to do with prophetic accuracy? He was simply belittling her for not being Jewish and only helped her after she grovelled. I agree with the original poster that this is an instance where it's likely that the historical figure of Jesus is shown for a moment rather than the mythologized Jesus.

>>18819002
I don't know, maybe it was just a phrase, like "casting pearls before swine." The phrase isn't intended as an insult, it just means certain people can't understand it. I'm not a christcuck, I'm just playing devil's advocate, don't care either way.

>>18818996
>Both Shem and Ham are sons of Noah
correct
>so they can't really be different races
Not exactly. Are Ishmaelites the same as Israelites? Are Edomites the same as Israelites? Race today is oft thought of purely related to skin color, but a difference in ancestry is useful enough to identify people who share skin color

>>18818445
Unironically this right here is why I left Christianity, specifically the apostolic ones. Theyre so tied in with ethnicity which just dooms all of the other ethnicities that didnt get born into that one apostolic faith, and its over. Protestantism is just as retarded and even faces the same issue.

>>18819077
Galatians 3:28
>There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

>>18819077
>tied in with ethnicity
>Catholicism

>>18819126

>>18819130

>>18819113
Paul was a fraud.

>>18819166
Why? What did Paul have to gain by leaving his Pharisee life and becoming a Christian who was enthusiastically open to Gentile conversion?

>>18818382
What is there to answer?

>>18818775
except her begging him in the first place shows she has faith, yet Jesus felt the need to deny her on a specifically racial basis

>>18818902
>But Canaan are also a semetic people
At the time, people would have made a very strong distinction between tribes. Yes, nowadays we'd group them in the same racial category, but at the time neither Israelites nor Canaanites would have viewed themselves as the same, and in fact they had quite bad relations. I think "dog" was an insult Jews used to refer to Canaanites (I may misremember this though).
So no, not technically racist, but his point is pretty clear. He's insulting her for not being Jewish. We have a special word for insulting Jews, but since we don't have a word for Jews insulting the goyim, we can only use racism.

>>18818669
Oh yeah, 100%, but all the other similarities to pre-existing religious stories are just coincidence and/or premonitions of Christ
Orpheus and Osiris and Zoroaster are all fake but the Christian version is 100% real. It's all in the book.

>>18818606
I largely agree with you, my only point was to say that there isn't all that much of a point in saying people traded in paganism for Christianity because it's in any way theologically or philosophically superior.
In case there's any ambiguity, I agree that paganism was used in a similar way (the imperial cult makes this rather blunt).

>>18818187
deez nuts

>>18819126
Quick, fetch some Uncle Toms to support the practice of slavery

>>18818696
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Witnesses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Day_Saint_martyrs

There's better documentation for early Mormon martyrs and witnesses than there is for the Christian apostles. Reminder that most of the accounts of apostolic martyrdom are recorded centuries later and contradict each other.

>>18819423
See what Plutarch says about the egyptian myth concerning Osiris (hint: natural symbolism like most shit in antiquity, woah!!). Only Dionysus is a genuine symbol of what Christ will represent. Besides, yeah myths are different from history.

>>18818778
But there are trillions of suns and oceans?

>>18819732
>natural symbolism like most shit in antiquity, woah!!
but Christ being born from a virgin and coming back to life? nah dawg this time it's real
all those other religions are just fake bullshit tho

>>18819804
Do we have historical accounts and archeological artifacts of mythic figures? Lol cope more atheist

>>18819865
We have historical and archaeological artifacts for Mohammed and Joseph Smith. Does that automatically mean the supernatural and revelatory phenomena attributed to them are genuine?

>>18819886
>mythic figures
>muhammed and joseph smith
I think you are retarded

>>18819865
We have "historical accounts" of a bunch of shit Muhammad almost certainly never did on account of them being completely impossible and ridiculous if they were taken literally. Does that mean Muhammad actually had a cloud follow him around to shield him from the sun? No, of course not.

>>18819865
>Do we have historical accounts and archeological artifacts of mythic figures?
Yes, quite a lot of it. For example, Odin was quite possibly a real king. That doesn't mean he did the more fantastical stuff.

>>18818187
Dead winners (mostly white people)

>>18818696
Thats unironically how Jewish pranks go.
I have a good one. We get the government to take everything and say we live in Utopia. Then when we're all getting beaten to death and starved by secret police lmao its so funny why not lol

Also America version is even better:
Let's convince all white dads to move out from the inner city and build an urban sprawl for a centerless hollowed out grid town where we can shove THIRD WORLD FOREIGNERS AND WEIRDOS WHO HATE US! Hehehe inner city sucks. Then the joke is they get to hang guilt for over a century on us and get the government to take all our things so the secret police can....

Hey Moses I got a good one. Yeah Covid 3 and the rape of the first born uh I meant uh lol

>>18819964
>Odin was not Odin but a king
Yeah very historical

>>18819947
Muhammed is not a mythic figure retard holy shit, I’m talking about the retard’s comparison between mythical figures (orpheus, osiris) and historical ones

>>18819641
Wow I wish I had my ARYAN BVLL buttrape me silly in 8th grade instead of Catholic Priest.
Return to TRVDITION WHVOA
Buttcum is halaal!

>>18818902
Jesus was had a keen eye for people's true motivations and intentions, as his interactions with the pharisees and his disciples proves, likely he saw she was sincere in asking him for help recognising he was the messiah, this causing her to hold her nationality cheap. Also the word for dog here translates closer to pet, which was much less cutting for the early readers.

>>18819964
Odin possibly being a mere king from the far past is literally a Christian invention originally designed to belittle Odin as not truly being a God. Christian missionaries encouraged the belief that past Gods were just great humans who were later deified and nothing more.

>>18820110
And they literally were, retard. Holy shit and then it is christians who cling to sky daddy phantasy. Pagans are the most retarded people to ever exist.

>>18818187
Do you need to worship ?

>>18820040
then this is a stupid argument because you can switch between comparing Jesus as a human and Jesus as a totally real god to avoid any argument you don't like
the fact is you have 0 proof of Christianity being literally true, any more than the prior religions were true
>>18820110
>Odin possibly being a mere king from the far past is literally a Christian invention originally designed to belittle Odin as not truly being a God
I don't see how this is an issue. As far as I'm aware, in Norse mythology there was no contradiction between a god being a god but also a human. Odin being a man is not the same as Odin being a "mere" man to them.

>>18820040
> I’m talking about the retard’s comparison between mythical figures (orpheus, osiris) and historical ones
so what part of Jesus actually returning to life do you think is plausible history and not just myth?

>>18818187
me

>>18818493
>This should sound pretty familiar, especially given current events.
I’m curious what are you referencing here?

>>18818540
Awesome effort post anon very interesting. Are there any history books on this?

>>18820880
>then this is stupid because you can switch between comparing jesus as a human and jesus as a real god
are you retarded? The whole thing is that Jesus is God-man/man-God and that his incarnation is precisely what is the issue here: factual history.

>the fact is you have 0 proof of Christianity being literally true, any more than the prior religions were true
Historical accounts both in the Gospels and by pagans, materiality (shroud of turin, other archeological proofs). yeah zero! go worship your false viking god or whatever you dumb larper

>>18820904
This is a fact of Jesus' life who was not a mythical figure. This is the main difference from Osiris, Orpheus, etc. (whose entire stories are purely mythical). Anyhow watch these:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhlqx0sy05LBr5fJz8A-DeY2PNui_UwZc

>>18818583
>examples of Christianity being pushed for any reasons but religious ones.
Idk much about this history—or any religious history—but given how intertwined religion was with politics, the distinction you’re making doesn’t make sense. You’re assuming religious conversions being motivated out of political concerns makes them not really religious—i.e that “true” religion is apolitical. If I had to make an educated guess this distinction likely derives from Enlightenment concepts that would make little sense to the people you are describing.

>>18817068
None, because Christianity is a monotheistic religion without tribal patron deities.
Why highlight the Semitic background of Christianity while ignoring its Hellenic background? That Jesus held Greek philosophical influences is obvious and well established, and Christian doctrine would be expounded upon by European theologians reading Greek philosophy, but Jews who were contemporaneous to Christ were also religiously Hellenized.
The identification of God and Christ with the Logos in the Gospel of John indicates a Hellenized conception of God. Divine filiation itself was a Hellenic concept; the Greco-Roman religious believed that gods sire men, but traditionally practitioners of Judaism did not. Only those Jews who had adopted some of the beliefs of their Mediterranean rulers saw plausibility in the notion of God incarnate.
Even the Pharisees as a Jewish conservative religious faction manifested the influence of Hellenic ideas. Where as Jews once believed that Sheol was the destination of all dead, they came to identify Sheol with Hades and adopted the belief that it was the destination of the wicked dead while the virtuous dead were destined for Heaven.
In opposition to the Judaizers, the Apostolic Council determined that Mosaic law was not binding to gentile (Greek and Roman at the time) converts, only some moral principles about not eating tainted meat and fucking each other in the ass. This occurs in the New Testament. I fail to see how Christianity is even close to being primarily Semitic. It honestly seems kind of retarded to suggest.

>>18818187
the voices inside your head

>>18818583
I agree that many conversions were political. For instance, St.Olaf of Norway became a zealous Christian after going to Normandy and being told about the king Charlemagne. He even named his son Magnus as a result. He probably noticed the power one can derive from Christianity as a king.

However, there was cases when conversion was done because of actual belief and argument, such as being told that their Gods were fake and that they should instead worship the one God who created everything.

> For Sigbert the king of East Saxons was a friend of Oswy [King of Northumberland] and often used to visit him in the province of the Northumbrians. Oswy used to reason with him how gods made by man’s handiwork could not be gods, and how a god could not be made from a log or block of stone, the rest of which might be burned or made into articles of everyday use or possibly thrown away as rubbish to be trampled underfoot and reduced to dust. He showed him how God is rather to be understood as a being of boundless majesty, invisible to human eyes, almighty, ever-lasting, creator of heaven and earth and of the human race. He. told him that he rules and will judge the world in justice, abiding in eternity, not in base and perishable metal; and that it should be rightly understood that all who know and do the will of their Creator will receive an eternal reward from him. “King Oswy advanced these and other arguments during friendly and brotherly talks with Sigbert, who, encouraged by the agreement of his friends, was at length convinced. So he talked it over with his advisers, and with one accord they accepted the Faith and were baptized with him by Bishop Finan in the king’s village at At-Wall.

>>18818583
I agree that many conversions were political. For instance, St.Olaf of Norway became a zealous Christian after going to Normandy and being told about the king Charlemagne. He even named his son Magnus as a result. He probably noticed the power one can derive from Christianity as a king.

However, there was cases when conversion was done because of actual belief and argument, such as being told that their Gods were fake and that they should instead worship the one God who supposedly created everything.

> For Sigbert the king of East Saxons was a friend of Oswy [King of Northumberland] and often used to visit him in the province of the Northumbrians. Oswy used to reason with him how gods made by man’s handiwork could not be gods, and how a god could not be made from a log or block of stone, the rest of which might be burned or made into articles of everyday use or possibly thrown away as rubbish to be trampled underfoot and reduced to dust. He showed him how God is rather to be understood as a being of boundless majesty, invisible to human eyes, almighty, ever-lasting, creator of heaven and earth and of the human race. He told him that he rules and will judge the world in justice, abiding in eternity, not in base and perishable metal; and that it should be rightly understood that all who know and do the will of their Creator will receive an eternal reward from him. King Oswy advanced these and other arguments during friendly and brotherly talks with Sigbert, who, encouraged by the agreement of his friends, was at length convinced. So he talked it over with his advisers, and with one accord they accepted the Faith and were baptized with him by Bishop Finan in the king’s village at At-Wall.

>>18821280
>that pic
Please don't tell me you still believe in nonwhites being allowed in white countries is a good thing when all white countries are being ethnically replaced.
Why are christcucks always like this? It isn't based, the end result is identical to this current white replacement.

>>18821255
I didnt claim one was true and the other wasnt. I pointed out that the idea of ancestors just deciding that christianity was somehow wiser than their old religion is stupid, because it grew for pragmatic reasons of statecraft.

>>18821252
>Historical accounts both in the Gospels and by pagans, materiality (shroud of turin, other archeological proofs). yeah zero!
So yes, literally 0.
"Some guy said so" isn't proof.
Otherwise you wind up with literally the exact same issue with other gods who were also supposedly human. But you just don't want to address that because you've already decided in advance that Christ is unique.
Since you're accepting historical hearsay as evidence, were the Muslims right when they claimed Muhammad performed miracles? Were the Norsemen right when they claimed their ancient kings and priests performed impossible feats because they were possessed by the gods? Or is it only the religion that you like that gets a free pass?

>>18821252
>shroud of turin
Wasn't that exposed as a fraud like decades ago

>>18821558
>yes literally 0
Ah yes, pagans are based but fuck jews right? but wait fuck pagans too for writing about Jesus!

>other gods who were also supposedly human
You are so dumb you can't understand what I have been trying to tell you for hours. The mythical element is not historical, that means someone like Aventinus is fictional. You can't distinguish myth from history that is why you are so deluded.
>were the Muslims right when they claimed Muhammad performed miracles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

>>18821583
>The shroud continues to be intensely studied, and remains a controversial issue among scientists and biblical scholars.[12][13][14][15]

>>18821624
You omit the fact that all the Christ copes have been described as debunked on the wiki article

>>18821644
I linked you two videos plus the fact that the there is no conclusion regarding fabrication of the piece.

>>18818266
I would sincerely like an explanation for that, too. It sounds even worse in Dennis MacDonald's reonstruction of the Q Gospel (Logia of Jesus) which had a positive reception among scholars (pic related)

>>18821615
>Ah yes, pagans are based but fuck jews right? but wait fuck pagans too for writing about Jesus!
Nobody said anything supporting paganism. Not everyone who doesn't automatically believe christ literally came back to life is a pagan or a satanist or whatever. Learn to read.
>The mythical element is not historical, that means someone like Aventinus is fictional. You can't distinguish myth from history that is why you are so deluded.
Yes, and the exact same applies to Christ. You do not have a single plausible piece of evidence to support your claim that any of his supernatural feats actually happened. This makes your claim that he is actually a god totally irrelevant, and it makes it far more likely that all the elements of his supposedly godly origins are just fiction, which is why they have parallels in prior myths.
>>18821676
Yet you've brought it up as supposed evidence for something impossible despite you admitting it's inconclusive at best.

>>18821615
>The mythical element is not historical
You mean like a chick giving birth while claiming to be a virgin? Or like a dude coming back to life, waltzing out of his tomb like it was no big deal, but somehow only his super secret club noticed and he conveniently vanished later anyway?

>>18821676
That is the case for many old artifacts. Scientists can't perfectly replicate the shroud they also can't perfectly replicate loads of shit.

>>18821720
I think >>18819002 is the only plausible explanation that isn't a giant cope. It's probably a rare moment where we're shown jesus the man when he may have been short tempered or tired or just not in the mood for whatever reason, and he briefly lashed out.
All other explanations seem to be some form of cope about how it's totally just a test bro while trying to ignore that god seems to be rather racist towards the goyim here.

>>18820568
Worship is an inextricable part of human cognition.

>>18821809
Mark is full of odd, human and fallible moments that get smoothed over in later gospels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcan_priority#Hard_readings

>>18818331
He didn't allow her to die, though. Which was the point. The strength of her mother's faith literally allowed her to transcend tribe in the eyes of God.

You're the one who always needs some excuse.

>>18821830
Honestly I'd like them if only they were acknowledged properly. One of the things I do really like about the gnostics was how christ was acknowledged as someone who wasnt always nice, sometimes he was rude, sometimes he mocked people who followed him, sometimes he said they just weren't good enough, and it's much more compelling to have people not try and deny everything by trying to say its all just some weird test of faith despite that not really being a good reason for anything.

>>18821852
Except she had enough faith to ask him the first time. Clearly she had faith since she was already begging.
But she gets turned down. Only accepted after she puts her people down compared to Israel. You seem to want to ignore that part and only focus on the fact that he healed her kid in the end.

>>18821852
>The strength of her mother's faith literally allowed her to transcend tribe in the eyes of God.
Why did she need to "transcend tribe?"
Oh, right, because the passage implies Israel is to the master of the house as the goyim are to dogs.

I don't care about response and I'm not here to debate but since it was brought up I think this is a beautiful read. https://www.orthodoxroad.com/the-canaanite-woman/

>>18821731
So you reject every kind of account? Or just christian, jewish and pagan accounts? You want atheists studies? You’ll still have to select for there is no unanimity even among atheists. We are talking about the historical evidence of Jesus as opposed to the mythological accounts. You don’t even understand the issue here.

>You dont have evidence
The difference is that of historicity. Compare the jewish history and its traditional accounts with that of Christianity. Consider the witness proof by the first ones to see the miracles. Also why are you so afraid of the shroud?

>at best
At least, retard. If scientists to this day haven’t concluded anything it is obviously because they can’t simply debunk it. Watch the videos and see why they can’t.

>>18821772
Prove these didn’t happen

I don't need a 10000 lines from a book to tell me how retarded the Jewish books are. I just need to read the first 10 lines of the Bible to see how asinine one has to be to take is seriously in modern day and age. It's easy to dismiss for people not indoctrinated since birth.

>>18821921
>Prove these didn’t happen
kek
Thanks for conceding.

>>18821921
When you read Suetonius and you see miracles associated with the birth of Caligula why don't you believe those? Also, the pagan testimonies you talk about just refer to the fact there is a Jewish sect that believes in someone called Christ. There are no attestations to Christ's miracles outside the Gospels.

>>18821946
*and Paul's letters

>>18821921
>So you reject every kind of account?
Yes. If you believe every kind of hearsay you will fool yourself into believing anything. I have still not seen how your religion has more evidence for it than any other. Why not join a UFO cult? They have many eyewitnesses, apparently, and there is at least some videos which show some very suspicious things that could be aliens. Why not follow those people? But somehow you will say you want more than just stories, won't you?
I accept that these religions have value for spiritual teachings, but I see absolutely no reason to believe these stories are literally true.

>>18821921
>Prove these didn’t happen
Wow atheists BTFO
Isn't this argument lifted from God's Not Dead btw?

>>18819641
>its members stand firm beside one another
lel

>>18821941
>>18821995
>didn’t read the post
I showed proofs from my part now you show yours. I’m waiting.

>>18821946
How many people were witness proof and died for what they witnessed? Where is materiality? We have materiality (hint Shround).
And no, it is not only in Paul’s letters the miracles are related. Read the thing.

>>18822111
>I showed proofs from my part
No you didn't. You claimed a guy came back from the dead and the best piece of evidence you had was "some guy said so 2000 years ago so it must be true"

>>18822131
Evidences: OT accounts of Messiah, Virginal Birth; Witness Proof + dying for it; pagan/non-christian accounts; Shroud of Turin.

>>18822111
>Where is materiality? We have materiality (hint Shround).
No you don't. A burial shroud doesn't prove anything, when the remarkable claim isn't that he's dead, it's that he supposedly got back up. The fact that he died isn't in dispute.

>>18821980
Yes that is why you don’t reject things: not to believe anything. Try reading everything I said repeatedly here in this thread and then you’ll know why it is totally different.

>>18822147
>OT accounts of Messiah, Virginal Birth; Witness Proof + dying for it; pagan/non-christian accounts
You said "hearsay" 3 times and stated a virgin getting pregnant with no evidence for that.
>Shroud of Turin
Is not proof of anything and its legitimacy is in question anyway.
By the way, if a woman is a virgin and tells you she's pregnant, run. You're way too willing to believe that without question.

>>18822149
You don’t even know what the Shroud is. Try watching the videos seriously.

>>18822161
>Try reading everything I said repeatedly here in this thread
Bro you literally believe in a woman getting pregnant with no father without any evidence except someone told you so.

>>18822188
Explain how the image of a dude's face on a burial shroud proves he came back to life.

>>18822173
>dying for what one witnessed
>hearsay

>accounts that are literally the historical method of everything we know in history
Literally just ignore half of humanity’s history then

>legitimacy in question
Yeah we are still waiting (how long have we been waiting?). Until then the inconsistencies for fabrication proves the other side.

>virgin pregnant
A sign was announced. Read the Bible.

>>18822197
>without evidence
Lmao how many times have I showrd and need to show again? You people are literally npcs repeating the same things. You are programmed not to accept it, ok I won’t waste my time.

>>18822219
>>dying for what one witnessed
>>hearsay
Yes. Or you will need to admit martyrs of other religions are equally valid, and then you're still back where you started.

>>18822225
>A sign was announced
I'm being had. There's no way you're not pulling my fucking leg.
>I won’t waste my time.
Thank god for that.

>>18822216
If you don’t want to watch what I linked above then read pic related.

>>18822228
It depends. What martyrs of other religions? Ah I need to remind you that we are talking about the apostles giving their lives for what they experienced directly.

>>18818187
Big Black Cock

>>18818696
I love this image because it makes it clear that christshits and their faith are extremely superficial and surprisingly postmodern
>they died for it therefore it couldn't have been imagined
Is the same as
>trust all women with their rape accusations because no women would ever willingly expose herself to the shame of being a rape victim

>>18822290
what exactly did the apostles have to gain by lying about the resurrection?

>>18822257
>What martyrs of other religions?
Islam would be an extremely obvious example to anyone with their eyes open in the past 30 years.

>>18822334
right. 9/11 was done by muslims who personally witnessed muhammad

>>18822396
And the Muslims who personally knew Muhammad were all just mistaken about what they saw?

>>18822439
What persecution did they suffer for it and how did they die?

>>18817068
For me, it was Ancient City.

This one worked for me.
GOTHIC VIOLENCE is a fictional dark comedy by author, Mike Ma. Though is a continuation of the first work, this book stands alone. GOTHIC VIOLENCE follows a gang of jihadist surfers who use insider trading profit to disable the national power grid and capture Florida amid total panic
Get it here: https://www.amazon.com/Gothic-Violence-Mike-Ma/dp/B096Z7J6C1

>>18822539
Answer the question. Were they mistaken?

>>18822396
You're jumping through a lot of hoops to say you're relying almost entirely on someone just telling you it's true. You can believe whatever you want but let's not mix up religion and fact.

>>18818778
Deut. 4:19

>>18822563
Dying for belief is different from dying for what you witnessed. We are talking about different things. Apostles were literally persecuted for whay they witnessed while, as christians, martyrs die for their faith.

>>18821920
Honestly this was a great read. I'm not an Orthodox Christian anymore, but it's always a pleasure to hear their positions on Biblical stuff, I mean look at this thread, just a fucking dumb mess of idiots who can't make sense of the passage with the Canaanite woman. Thanks for sharing anon.

>>18820093
This. If anything it was a test of faith and the woman's faith was approved by God/Jesus.

>>18818331
>>18818445
>>18818498
Anon, the fact the answer doesn't convince you or is satisfying for you doesn't change the truth of the answer. During the New Testament Jesus constantly fullfils the prophecies of the Old Testament and also is aware of what the old scriptures said. There's a purpose and meaning behind all of His actions, including in His final moments (See for example : My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? which is Jesus quoting Psalm 22).

>>18818596
>Guided by the Holy Spirit
>fanfiction
Anon...

>>18821880
Essau was the one choosen to receive the inheritance and instead went to Jacob. In the same way the blessing of God was with those that recognize him and those that denied Him were also denied of His blessing. This is not just about the tribe of Judah, but about everyone that either rejects or accepts Christ.
This parallelism and comparison is quite common and you are a complete brainlet if you fail to see it and even worse, to understand it.

>>18822302
Assuming that they existed in any way even approximating what the stories that postdate their deaths by centuries say, which is an already incredibly tenuous claim? They were literally (re)creating their society from the ground up after it had been rocked by centuries of gentile conquest. God's Chosen People, for whom the whole world was made as a larder; Yahweh, the creator of the universe, made gentiles to act as their slaves. And then for over 200 years the Greeks, Romans, and Persians had been stomping around, just ignoring that. Didn't these filthy goyim know that they were slaves? The Greeks and Romans turned the holiest place on Earth, the Temple, the place where Yahweh physically dwelled with the Jews, into a temple to Zeus/Jupiter like, three times.

If the Resurrection means so little to you, then why do you act as if it's important? If you can't even think of a reason why someone would want it to happen, then why pretend as if you believe in it? You obviously don't.

>>18822548
Are you referring to this?

And this

>>18823432
/Thread
Jews are notorious plagiarists and always doing advanced psyops involving controlled opposition. Antisemitism, white supremacy, and liberalism are all supported by Jews, for example, to create an oppressive web for goy. Read Christopher Jon Bjerknes.
There is no such thing as a European Christian. You are all Jews. Likewise, there is no such thing as an Islamic non-arab (eg Persian or Turk). You are all Arabs.
The history of West Eurasia has been reduced to the petty squabbles over Semitic nonsense.
There is no such thing as a good Christian or Muslim at this point in history when the great Lie is finally being dismantled.
Both Jews and Arabs have the blood of evil and they are the rulers of the West, both inner and outer.

>>18818266
that wasn't the point.

>>18823334
Wow nobody's ever heard that cope before

>>18818308
He probably said that in order to refute the idea that the lost sheep of Israel was a race or tribe and not people who have faith in God. She was saved through her faith. Like Matthew 3:9. If she was not one of the "lost sheep," He would not have helped her if what He said is to be interpreted in the old, Judaic "Gentile vs Jew" lens

>>18819423
>THINGS ARE... SIMILAR?? WOAH!!!!

>>18817068
1. There is no Christianity without the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. We do not come to the Father except through Him.
3. The Lord already conquered the world, and its ruler, Satan, who spawns lies and wraps the truth in them.
4. YHWH is the demiurge.

None because I'm not a fedora tipper.

>>18821720
People cope about this but its a form of spiritual racism basically
There's another part where Jesus says that a centurion has more faith than all of Israel, he used biological racism as a bridge over to spiritual racism basically

>>18821880
>>18821862
And now you're on to moving the goalposts.

Keep tippin' bros.

>>18823724
That isn't moving the goalposts that was exactly the original posters issue with it right from the start. You just ignored that part.

>>18823724
>why is jesus racist to this woman who needs help and only helps her after she shits on her own people?
>well he helps her in the end so it's ok
>but why was he racist to her at all
>woah woah woah why are you moving the goalposts, fucking atheists

Stop explaining yourselves to fedora tippera and larpagans. No amount amount truth will ever convince them to abandond the pre-conceived delusions they have concocted about christianity. These people do not have any intention to learn about christianity. If you prove their basless assumptions and lies wrong they will simply move the goal posts. Heed the words of Christ : do not cast pearls beforw swine. You know what the truth is and these people cannot convince you otherwise

>>18823851
The most explanation ITT is some total brainlet who just said the bible must be true because those people wouldnt lie
But everyone else is LARPing right?

>>18818266
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet sent to the Jews in particular. In which case it makes sense.

>>18818187
bbc

>>18823458
Good recc.

>>18822147
>OT accounts of messiah, virgin birth
To this day Christians still have to mistranslate 'almah' in Isaiah as 'virgin' in order to make it seem like prophesies Christ (and the idea to make Christ the product of a virgin birth was probably just based on the mistranslation of this line in the Septuagint available to contemporary Greek-speaking Jews at the time anyway).

>>18822219
Some of the Mormon 'Eight Witnesses' died for what they witnessed too

>>18822539
There were several people close to Mohammed that were martyred for Islam. This is well known

>>18822302
>what would people who had left their families, their jobs, and sold all their belongings to follow around a messiah for several years have to gain by convincing themselves and their followers that he was resurrected after an apparently humiliating death

>>18826177
Retard learn how to read and interpret things correctly. There is the word “sign” in that passage. Either learn to read or go read patristric commentaries if you’re too dumb.

>>18826335
It is certainly a prophecy, but not of Christ. Emmanuel is a different figure entirely. The Gospels inserting "Emmanuel" as a title of Jesus is a cope. The whole prophecy is only relevant to the direct political context of Ahaz, king of Judah, and the wars his country was embroiled in at the time.

>>18826349
>it was a mistranslation
>it was not of Christ
>it was a contextual passage
Keep coping retard (btw the fact that patharnos is the translated term tells us that jews obviously changed it to try to fuck with christians)

>>18826184
Read >>18822636

>>18826442
Except as >>18826184 pointed out these include people who actually knew Mohammed personally. You don't have any argument here that Islam doesn't also have.

>>18826433
Everything you just greentexted is true. How are those "copes"? The real cope is asserting the Jews intentionally altered the Hebrew Bible in order to render the Christian prophecy void. You consider conspiracy more "obvious" than mistranslation.

>>18826450
Again: they dies for what they believed not for what they witnessed which was contestee by others and defended with their lives.

>>18826485
You are literally affirming there was mistranslation when the Septuagint renders the term by parthenos, literally virgin. The “hebrew bible” aka masoretic text you mean right?
It is very clear, the prophet says there will be a sign that a virgin will give birth.
End of discussion.

>>18826511
The prophet says a young woman will give birth, not a virgin.

>>18826522
First: Septuagint term is not young woman, it is PARTHENOS.

Second: Consider the following again:
> Moreover, the prophecy, ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,’ was uttered respecting Him. For if He to whom Isaiah referred was not to be begotten of a virgin, of whom did the Holy Spirit declare, ‘Behold, the Lord Himself shall give us a sign: behold, the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son?’ For if He also were to be begotten of sexual intercourse, like all other first-born sons, why did God say that He would give a sign which is not common to all the first-born sons? But that which is truly a sign, and which was to be made trustworthy to mankind,—namely, that the first-begotten of all creation should become incarnate by the Virgin’s womb, and be a child,—this he anticipated by the Spirit of prophecy, and predicted it, as I have repeated to you, in various ways; in order that, when the event should take place, it might be known as the operation of the power and will of the Maker of all things.

>>18826544
Who care about the Septuagint? It was a mistranslation of the Hebrew almah.

>>18826578
What is the text that has almah in it? Also almah can even mean virgin, in case you don’t know. However the SIGN in the text also points to the extraordinary event.

>>18826641
Even so, the sign is given to Ahaz, as something he can witness. It is not a sign for a much later age.

>>18826670
Holy shit you wicked fuck, the thing concerns what the sign signs.

>>18818187
just pick an immortality project at random

>>18826716
What? Can you please explain what you mean? So far as I can tell, the 'sign' is that a young woman will give birth to a boy called Emmanuel.

>>18826728
If you still can’t understand, read the greentext from here: >>18826544 and look up the meaning of the name Immanuel.

>>18818266
b a s e d

>>18826787
That analysis is perfectly cogent assuming the truth of Christianity, but without it, said explanation is nothing more than a 'just so' story. There are two things in contention: 1. whether the OT prophecy referred to Christ, in any sense. 2. whether Christ actually fulfilled it. That the Gospel writers said he was born of a virgin is not convincing evidence he was. This may all seem like sophistry to you, who accepts Christianity, but remember this is exactly how you, personally, would reason with Muslim and Hindu apologists. That is, unless you accepted every holy text automatically.

>>18826953
It is very simple, you are the one making winding reasonings.
We are talking about the passage in Isaiah, precisely that it refers to a virgin giving birth, this is settled, I assume, since you’re now taking issue with Christianity itself and not the analyses of that passage per se.
>1 whether OT prophecy referred to Christ
Do you doubt that? You can only doubt it if you simply reject the Gospels and the accounts about Jesus.
Your second point is superfluous, it is the same as the first one.

If you take into consideration the OT why would you deny the NT? Why there was no “attempt” to do the same before Jesus? Why was this prophecy fulfilled exactly with Jesus?

>>18827016
I don't think it is settled since most academic and Jewish translations + commentaries say young woman not virgin. Even Catholic Bibles use 'young maiden' now. But I am willing to put the point aside.

Well I think the default position is not to assent to the Gospels before the authority of the Gospels can be verified. I have no way of knowing whether or not Jesus was actually born of a virgin and was resurrected after his death, unless I trust that the Gospels are inerrant. I believe, of course, that the Gospels reflect some historical truth: that a man named Jesus was born in Nazareth, preached for several years, and died in Jerusalem. However, I can only assent to the proposition that he was born of a virgin if I trust that the writers of the Gospels are conveying accurate information to me. And I have no reason to do so.

I don't take the OT into consideration as if it were true. I critically analyse it in light of the claims made by it about Christianity. Namely, that Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament. Jews and academics (even Christian ones) are sceptical of these claims.

The prophecy was "fulfilled exactly" with Jesus because either the writer of the Gospel or one of his sources added in this detail about Jesus to give him messianic authoirty. He may not have been being dishonest. He might have thought that he was divinely inspired to know some specific truth. Or he might have heard a rumour and then connected it to an Old Testament verse (which he would have known only in Greek translation).

>>18827064
>jewish translation
Exactly! The piece we have of Isaiah’s passage is parthenos, not almah (which is the translation here). That the septuagint translation rendered it virgin says a lot either about the original hebrew text or the prophecy itself. Also, the term almah is ambiguous insofar as a young maiden is an open description. What is the state of a girl who just entered puberty? But yeah you ignore the SIGN detail completely.

>willing to point aside
Of course you will.

>I have no way of knowing
You have, see this post >>18821252 for example.

>>18827064
>jewish and academics
If you don’t accept christians’ take because they are christians why would I accept jews’ and academics’ takes if they are not christians? What about christian academics who vouch for it?

>the prophecy was fulfilled exactly with Jesus because
Ok but why not earlier or later? Why not with Apollonius?

>>18818187
Take an educated guess faggot.

>>18817068
Jesus preached that there was no difference between the Jew and the Greek. Mohammad preached that there was no difference between the Arab and the black.
Judaism as we know it has been warped and preserved by Jews is a clannish and racist religion. It is one in which an atheist is still considered a Jew, while a convert isn't considered a real Jew. Conversion to it by non-blood-descendent Jews remains controversial. The Jews continued to abandon God's message and messengers, including Jesus and Mohammad, out of narcissism and worldliness. Jesus was sent to the Jews, but was not sent only FOR the Jews - he was sent for mankind, and so the Jews rejected him. Mohammad too was sent for mankind, much more explicitly, and was also rejected by the Jews because he was not sent to them, but sent to the Arabs. The Jews believed prophethood and religion were a monopoly for their people as the chosen people. Some Christians also believe this due to the Judaification of Christianity after the reformation and the mistaken view that Jesus is God's son. Martin Luther wrote that Jews were the family of God, and that goys were intruders

>>18827303
The retard who made that pic doesn't even understand how mirrors work

>>18827404

>>18826721
lol this poor sap actually took the denial of death seriously

>>18826511
>Again: they dies for what they believed not for what they witnessed
Except that's wrong because they did claim Mohammed did some absolutely bonkers stuff.
You have consistently ITT made the most absolutely braindead arguments I've heard in defense of christianity in a long time. While /lit/ in general seems to have some reasonably intelligent christianposting from time to time, I can actually feel my respect for Christianity as a whole dropping each time I have to read yet another boneheaded post of your circular reasoning claiming christianity is true because people say it's true and we know they're telling the truth because they can't be lying or mistaken.
Reply whatever you want to this. I won't read it, because I can't take reading more of your absolutely mindbending lack of logic.

Christianity is obviously false, but which religious philosophy do you think is closer to the truth?

>>18827615
I think it even took too long for someone to notice it. My point is so simple, it is fruit of that epistemological premiss which can only be affirmed by faith, or rather will.
I'll tell you also that I am far from establishing what I believe on something as the Shroud, for example, even though it is a pretty curious piece and makes me laugh every time at the lack of any legitimate retort, affirming again a hidden faith on the part of sceptics.
We are not talking about the metaphysical superiority of Christianity, the anthropological revelation, we are talking about historical matters, this is enough to know—and to affirm—my point.
Far from trying to convince anyone of anything, I was merely mirroring yourselves.

>>18828108
The Shroud has been dated to the Middle Ages. The idea that the results were contaminated by repair has been debunked. The first bishop who saw the Shroud wrote a letter to the Pope calling it a fake, saying he knew the artist responsible.

>title tries to sound like an old timey history book
>cover image is in no way related to early indo-european religion
yup im thinking larpers

>>18828153
The examinations are still inconclusive as said here: >>18821624.
Watch the videos on the Shroud, I tell you again:
https://youtu.be/M5NEY0NkPrw
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhlqx0sy05LBr5fJz8A-DeY2PNui_UwZc

Why be so dishonest about it?

>>18828153
>>18828257
Ah also forgot to quote this: >>18822243

>>18828257
Why does the Shroud show Jesus having long hair when Paul said it's a sin for a man to have long hair (1 Corinthians 11:14)?

>>18828685
Ever considered that your definition of long hair might be different to that of a 1st century Pharisee Jew?

>>18828685
Jesus isn't just any man, besides, see the reason for which long hair was considered a shame (the context)

>lit is full of christfags
Surprising, desu.

>>18822243
Whoops, sorry, forgot the part two.

>>18817068
never started. I was raised irreligious and that is one of the greatest gifts my parents ever gave me.

As for what book convinced me there was no magic sky man, it was a kids' book on the solar system that I read when I was in elementary school.

>>18830481
thank you for wasting my time reading this blatant fabrication

>>18817068
>semitic desert demons
you are using a christian framework to criticise christianity

>>18830719
Demons predate christianity by millenia.

>>18830861
the term having a necessary negative connotation or it being wrong to worship them in some way is a semetic idea

IMO I think Christianity is true largely because I think you can see God directly acting in the world. Prayers getting answered, people getting altered, history getting changed. Obviously I think miracles are 100% real. Bleeding Eucharists, the Marian apparitions, healings, prophecies, these all seem very real and some of them are very well documented. But even ordinary people have somewhat miraculous things happen to them by relying on Christ. The idea that God is just silent isn't borne out by the lived experiences of Christians. Christ is actually real and He actively works in the world, in either mundane ways or miraculous ways. I feel like a lot of the rejection of Christianity is just a refusal to acknowledge that materialism is incorrect, even when there's a preponderance of evidence that it IS incorrect.

>>18830880
And Semites predate christianity by millenia.

>>18830906
are people speaking in tongues truly speaking with god?

>>18818187
Science

>>18818187
yourself

>>18818187
the void

>>18819423
>Replying to a 2 day old reply

I know, but the fact people are still regurgitating this shit from that Zeitgeist movie is hilarious. All the religious stuff in the intro was complete bs lol.
> "X figure was born to a virgin on Dec 25 too!"
No he wasn't. That shit was made up by some German egyptologist iirc.

>>18818669
I remain agnostic, I try to be a secular Christian.

>>18818266
>departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
The woman was probably a practicing religious pagan, which is indicated by the historical contexts.
Another issue: why did Jesus not say similar things to say the Centurion? And that story is earlier in Matthew. And why is it that Jesus never condemn practices of the pagans in any specific way, like he does with the Pharisees? Or that he openly tells the the chief priests and the elders that "that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." That's also in the same Gospel. Before he gives the parable of the tenants, which contextually involves the Jews collectively.
Of course, all you care about is your political paradigms. You don't actually care about religion, if it's true, or even if the Jews of 2000 years ago have any meaningful continuity with those of the last few centuries. Most wignat pagans don't care about actual, original Germanic or Hellenic religious practices. You see what you want to see.

>>18825380
Yeah but then they substitute in Mohammad and we're supposed to believe that the prophet of all of humanity was an Arab and that the immortal Word of God is in Arabic? That's just as unbelievable

>>18819406
Israelis were Canaanites. Canaan was a melting pot of mostly Semitic peoples.

>>18827303
People don't do what the top two images claim they do though.
No one has alters in their homes where they pray to the spirit of Karl Marx.
Ethos =/= religion

>>18821514
This is my issue with Christianity. It is anti-nationalist and pro egalitarian, which is in full accordance with the jewish plan to replace whites with mudslides and nigs. "the meek shall inherent the earth" - more like African zerg spawns shall inherent the earth with the jews sitting in wizard towers controlling everything. Wake up christcucks

>>18818308
>>18818266
But—the woman at the well!
>>18818331
You people always have an excuse for why you shouldn't believe
>>18818365
Based Jesus
>>18818498
>the bible honestly seems like a book which has been selectively edited and just isn't a coherent story anymore.
That's because it is a compilation of different selections of text that didn't appear until hundreds of years after the events being told in it
>>18818544
Cringe desu.
>>18818669
Yes.
>>18819641
Sodomy is still unnatural and against Logos. Cringe post.
>>18820568
Yes, lest you worship carnality and descent into degeneracy; otherwise, your hubris will lead to your downfall
>>18820150
Cringe desu.
>>18821558
You don't need "proof", autist—it's about faith. If you do not seek faith, you should not pursue it. However, God is Logos and a reflection of the natural world. Although there may not be literal "proof", there are logical reasons why God must exist, etc.
>>18823608
So Sathan is not the god of this world?
>>18823839
Everyone was racist in ye olden days
>>18823851
True
>>18823888
Everyone is literally unwilling to be open-minded. I was at that point once myself as well.
>>18827665
Lol
>>18830906
Based
>>18830949
Cringe
>>18833407
Obviously not literal

Christcucks in this thread
>Jesus was supernatural because the bible said so
>Jesus was supernatural because Christinaity is such a big religion and so many other people believe it!
>Paganism is less real because the religion died out while Christinanity remains a big religion today
Literal sheep. Why even have a religion if you need to cope so hard to hold onto your faith? I have full faith in God and that His plan is for the best, and I play my part as best I can. That's all the faith I need. Organized religion is cope, with the sole purpose to unify people through myths and supernatural laws. Therefore the 'legitimacy of the myths' are a redundant subject to discus. Instead we should be discussing the values and morals which the myths inspire. And as we've seen, chistendom is fucking white Europeans in the ass. HAIL ODIN

4chan "pagans" are as superficial and lazy as their christian counterpart. I've been on this website for 4 years and haven't seen a single pagan who dares learning ancient philosophy or apply its principles to their sketched out beliefs.
>inb4 christcuck
No, I'm a polytheist and a neoplatonist
>inb4 neoplatonism is monotheism
Read Proclus/Iamblichus

>>18818266
You are conflating jews with isrealites.

>>18821920
Great read, very eye-opening – thank you for this
>>18822722
What made you turn from Orthodoxy? Are you still Christian?

God, I hate this autistic evidentialist wrangling so much. "Evidence" for foundational beliefs are rarely if ever the reason someone trusts in them. This is about the much more interesting question of temperament and fundamental values. Christianity has powerful implications, implications which to some are so beautiful and moving they are gripped from the core of their being and cannot help but believe. It is the completion of their nature. For some (those who aren't simply ignorant of Christian doctrine beyond the surface level), Christianity is repulsively weak, sappy, blindly optimistic, or closed. It's qualities are being appraised by different people from different standpoints. Those for whom racial consciousness is THE fundamental value will of course not be inspired by Christianity, in which those racial bonds are at the very least cast in a dubious light. This is a conflict between PERSONS, not professors.

>>18833699
What should I do if I find some (not all but some) of the deeper implications of Christianity appealing as well as the racial bonds of the pre-christian gods?
What should I do?

>>18834355
Just call yourself a Nietzschean. "A free spirited reevaluation of all values." that's what I do

>>18834355
Catholicism or any Christianity whole having an appreciation for the old gods and recognizing their symbolism without worshipping them. Or maybe old gods + God of Logos

>>18833676
what about Plato and Plotinus?

>>18818187
huge BBCs

>>18818594
>God was partially ignorant
That sound pretty retarded

>>18818279
this but unironically.

>>18833676
You don't know anything about paganism nerd.

>>18819477
you’re the only one who got digits, present them master.