/lit/ - Literature

Has seriously no place in modern poetry.

>>1886834
Oh, and why is that?

Personally, I like it--Good enough for Rimbaud, good enough for me, eh? It's not a requirement though..the other great poet--dylan thomas--didn't rhyme very much..while i'm on the subject I can't help but feel that when hearing Dylan Thomas actually read his poetry, I feel like he is a pretentious dick..i have to ignore his voice when i'm subvocalizing his poetry.

A rhyme, like any other technique in poetry, is a means to an end rather than an end itself (which is why rhyming for the sake of rhyming, a scrub mistake if ever there was one) is usually an awful move. It's just another tool in a poet's kit for, when tactfully deployed, demonstrated his mastery over language.

>>1886821
*demonstrates

>>1886840
>mastery over language
you make a lot of faggoty, mislead statements--but that one is really useless..if you think poets are exhibiting their ''mastery'' ''over'' ''language'' you're really hopeless..luckily I doubt you have the balls to write a poem without irony..you terminal prep BITCH

>>1886840
*demonstrating

FFffff

>>1886845
you seem to have misspelt OCBullshit in the name field

>>1886848
wait..was that..a c-comeback, you little tranny slut? stop. posting. mother. fucker.

>>1886852
you seem to have misspelt OCBullshit in the name field

>>1886837
Because it's not something that's currently taken seriously or valued as a poetic device.

>>1886840
Yeah, poetry is about showing how good with words you are.

What an idiot.

>>1886854
awww go cry more

>>1886858
>poetry is about showing how good with words you are.
That's a very sloppy way to put it, "good with words" is also woefully general and misleading

>>1886860
you seem to have misspelt OCBullshit in the name field

>>1886863
Oh, great. You're nitpicking word choice again instead of responding to what someone is actually saying.

What's the difference between being "good with words" and having "mastery of language"--other than the fact that one sounds painfully pretentious?

You want to actually address the fact that poetry isn't about that, rather than shitpost all over the place?

Oh, wait. You have Deep&Edgy in the name field.

>>1886840
I'm not so sure it demonstrates a mastery over language--rather a playfulness with it and an awareness of it, which seems a very appropriate thing for a poet to demonstrate. What do you think of this?

>>1886855
But why, do you think? And is your own reason for not taking it seriously a developed one, or is it merely because nobody else this day and age takes it seriously either? (That's fine, by the way, I don't mean to make it sound lazy or uneducated to go along with what others think and do--we are social animals after all)

:D:D:D:D

Awaiting the inevitable.

ITT: People will bash rhymes as a device for no reason other than angst.

Rhyme though not a necessity is one of the more essential parts of poetry.

Ability to rhyme not only indicates the ability of the poet to handle the language but also a deeper respect towards the foundations of literature.

>>1886863
>spams copypasta comeback
>doesn't think I'll continue to call him a little bitch
>2011
I really hope d&e doesn't do this

>>1886866
The idea that rhyme demonstrates awareness of language is sort of a no-brainer and a given: I mean, everything in a poem is about being aware of language and aware of time.

It isn't taken seriously because it's just fallen out of use. Trends come and go, and styles change from time to time. Rhyme essentially does disservice to a poem these days because it seems so anachronistic--and anyone who says otherwise probably isn't actually working (whether writing or studying) in the field of poetry today, and is basing their opinion on older, canonical work. But just because it exists, or has existed, doesn't mean it always can or should.

There are simply more interesting things to do with form than rhyme. Especially end rhyme.

>>1886876
Instead of being a slave to trends, shouldn't a poet be driven to derive a stylistic growth from the act of poetry, where rhyme may play a role in the development of the poets scheme? Basically, rules for writing are only useful to those who woefully lack any kind of genius. And they will play down the role of genius, clinging to any rules that proclaim proficiency over talent, skill and beauty

I like it when it's done well, like anything else. I love the way Auden uses it.

>>1886866
>I'm not so sure it demonstrates a mastery over language--rather a playfulness with it and an awareness of it
I never said rhyme demonstrates a poet's mastery, I said it is a tool used for demonstrating mastery. There's a difference. As for this 'playfulness' thing, it's peripheral. Take the following poem:

The cat is fat
Dad has a hat
The cat is fat

Let me tell you right now, I wasn't feeling very playful when I wrote it up. So I can assure you, I wasn't demonstrating any sort of playfulness. So where else could we possibly find this nebulous 'playfulness'; in the reaction of the reader? There are a number of problems here: a)not everyone agrees over poems, what's playful to some isn't to others. b)the old affective fallacy of evaluating a poem on the feelings in inspires in a person. So as far I as I can see, we can't say that I demonstrated playfulness with that poem, nor can we say that THE poem demonstrates playfulness, only to some people. So we are left saying that a rhyme demonstrates playfulness to some people. That doesn't have much to say about the value of rhyme in poetry, or the use of rhyme. In fact, I would say it doesn't tell us anything because poetry and creative of all sorts is an act of textual play to begin with so we're just praising play for being play which is redundant. So I think there is more value to the use of rhyme than it signifying a playfulness and awareness of language, just as there is more value to a painter's brush than that it signifies a playfulness and awareness of paint, or somesuch.

>>1886876
Some very good points to consider, here!

>anyone who says otherwise probably isn't actually working (whether writing or studying) in the field of poetry today

Are you?

And I rather like what this guy says >>1886867
--that rhyme indicates a deeper respect towards the foundations of literature.

I'm not sure that RESPEK is really required to be a poet, but I like that rhyme nowadays seems to reference what is old and established. Is it really best to attempt to sever this link to the history of poetry, pretend no such link exists? Would putting an end to rhyme accomplish something like that?

>>1886879
I mean, if rhyme is seriously necessary for the work, sure.

But the thing about rhyme is that it IS one of those rules for writing you mention. I think rhyme can be useful in a sort of post-modern way of calling attention to itself, but I don't know of any idea or image that desperately needs to rhyme in order to be articulated.

And anyway, a poet should absolutely pay attention to the kinds of writing that are happening around her. I mean, there's something to be said about finding one's voice and not pandering only to the latest trends, but one must still know what's going on out there in the writing world.

Poetry is a community, and the best poems tend to act as a conversation between a poet, her inspiration, her peers, the canon, her life, our lives the world, etc. The text is a tissue of these pressures and influences, not some singly-inspired divine word. It's romantic to think it is, but unrealistic.

>>1886889
Oh god, just fucking anne hiro already your posts are full of self-assured nonsense..I mean you are just generally arguing for a certain uncertainty in that post..how can we be sure? how about why do we need assurance? or more to the point, why do you need assurance? At the end you say, it's play..is it play? Is it not the opposite of play? Poetry is the reality test for your intentions. You give utterance to the derivative detritus of your life, and therefore--you only achieve the act of speech..now should words be praised as speech, for speaking? No, of course not. In fact poetry should be mercilessly torn down from the bottom to the top..poetry is nothing but an act of revenge..of vileness, and lust..therefore when you meet a poet on the street, push him in the gutter! By the way, when was the last time you used an exclamation point? YOUR LIFE LACKS EXCLAMATIONS!

>>1886889
this is off topic as all hell, but you for all the hate you get you seem like a relatively intelligent and articulate person. My question is, do you ever actually write anything yourself? Do you have writing ambitions? This is not some kind of veiled insult or anything, I assure you, I'm just curious to see if you ever level these analytical powers towards the creative end of the spectrum.

>>1886879
>rules for writing are only useful to those who woefully lack any kind of genius

Get a load of this one guys commas and full stops and writing in coherent sentences are no good to geniuses. Changed that name to OCBullshit yet bro?

I think it makes poetry more obviously sonorous and symmetrical. Rhyme is pleasing to speak, ask any child. It's a very effective tool.

>>1886904
Coherency really is for the weak..you need me to hold your dick when you piss too?!

>>1886902
>do you ever actually write anything yourself? Do you have writing ambitions?
Nothing substantial. I used to have aspirations but I'm more focused on Philosophy these days.

>>1886889
>I never said rhyme demonstrates a poet's mastery, I said it is a tool used for demonstrating mastery.

Oh my god give it a rest.

>>1886919

are you writing philosophy books? I think I'd probably read a book that you wrote

>>1886937
Are you joking? Of course he's not. He can't articulate a single point that's not an unnecessary correction to the way something he's posted has been read or a greentext deconstruction of someone else's post so full of fallacies it's painful.

inb4 he greentexts this post and dives into a discussion on the definitions of "unnecessary" and "fallacy" that essentially breaks down into a demonstration of how words have no meaning, which ultimately makes you question why the fuck he would get so wrapped up in denotation in the first place.

>>1886840
For once, I agree.

i think the better question is about structure - closed vs open form. rhyme in poetry should serve a purpose, like any other poetic technique. you may as well ask our opinions concerning the use of alliteration in poetry. i think today there are very few relevant ideas that are communicated most effectively by a closed form rhyme scheme, but that doesnt prohibit the sporadic use of rhyme to connect ideas. the most common example i can think of is "blackberry picking" by seamus heaney which uses half-rhyme in general interspersed with a couple full rhymes for a very specific purpose.

besides, once the closed form is forsaken, rhyme can be used to draw poems back from utter chaos and disorganization, if the relationship between chaos and order is a central concern for the poem. for example the waste land (quote from memory, so sorry for mistakes):

a woman drew her long black hair out tight
and fiddled whisper music on those strings
and bats with baby faces in the violet light
whistled, and beat their wings
and crawled head downward down a blackened wall
while upside down in air were towers
tolling reminiscent bells, that kept the hours
and voices sang from empty cisterns and exhausted wells

>>1886954
Yeah, he usually get's hate in every thread he's in but OCPoetry is dishing it out for no reason right now. D&E has made some good points in this thread...

>>1886876

There are also interesting things to do with rhyme: John Berryman's work is a good example of someone who still used rhyme regularly, but tore the idea apart and reconstructed it for his own purposes.

We also seem to have a limited definition of rhyme - Dylan Thomas rhymed regularly, but didn't necessarily use end rhyme, preferring internal rhymes, assonance and consonance - this is a part of the celtic tradition of poetry, and has as long a pedigree as any other form of poetics.

>>1886972
Yeah, I don't necessarily thing rhyme is a bad thing. it just needs to be fresh, interesting, and necessary.

The thing about formal rhyme scheme, which is immediately comes to mind when you think of rhyme, is that it's none of those things. It's a box within which to orient the work. A box in which some things can and have flourished, but a box that is ultimately unnecessary.

ITT: People are getting mad at D&E because he's right.

I'll just throw in a quick opinion-

Rhyme (when employed well) does demonstrate a mastery of language, which is even more noticeable today because of the steady decline of its use or what is seen as its importance (or lack there of) in modern poetry.

>>1886876
>anyone who says otherwise probably isn't actually working. . . in the field of poetry today
This is blatantly false. Just to take a quick look at influential modern poets since WW2, we see that people like Frank O'Hara, Roy Fisher, Stephen Rodefer, Denise Riley, and Lyn Hejinian who have all used rhyme on occasion to accent their work. It is not a defining feature, but when employed it adds liveliness and depth.

I could go on but I'm curious if anyone else agrees, so I'll leave it here.

>>1886960
>you may as well ask our opinions concerning the use of alliteration in poetry

Indeed! in fact, I considered it. But I decided to keep it to 'rhyme', trusting that alliteration and her friends would turn up eventually in the course of this discussion--so please, feel free to elaborate on other techniques as well.

>i think today there are very few relevant ideas that are communicated most effectively by a closed form rhyme scheme, but that doesnt prohibit the sporadic use of rhyme to connect ideas
>once the closed form is forsaken, rhyme can be used to draw poems back from utter chaos and disorganization

Very good, and thanks for the examples given

I like alot of old, specific forms. Pantoums, trialets, alexandrine endings and so on. They themselves carry their own significance in use. Yes, they are a bit old, but everything old is new again, retro is chic, and so on. Modernizing or making contemporary through change these specific structures is definitely expressive.

>>1886980
Actually, since I started writing this it seems that some other people do agree. Excellent.

>>1886984

You use an awful lot of words to say not much at all.

>>1886987
well, at least I contributed to the discussion, though forgive me for not spending all night proofreading, revising and editing every post

>>1886980

I think people are always and constantly returning to rhyme as a method of conveying poetry - rhymes are almost viral, and they drive poetry into the mind of the reader/listener in a way that no other writing can (but rhyme alone means nothing, scansion, consonance, assonance, and general 'rhythm' are equally important.

Carol Anne Duffy's a good example of a modern poet who's not afraid to use rhyme, but isn't bound to it. To say that rhyme has no place in modern poetry really does show a lack of engagement with poetry today. We're living in the time of the new sincerity - Sonnets FTW.

>>1886980
I'd like you to go on. i'm glad you listed a few names, too.

>>1886984
let's have some examples, then! post what you like. poetry has the advantage of being short enough for us to share here without merely sharing excerpts

>>1886987

What? He made a valid point. I think you meant to post in that thread with the surrealist faggot.

>>1886980
Of course I was speaking in generalities.

Mainly what I'm talking about is end rhyme. And it is absolutely a rarity.

I work for two literary journals, and rhyme is always immediately questioned when it appears in a submission in any way because, usually, it's awful.

But, you're right, some of the greats have done it on occasion, so it must be A-OK all the time.

>>1886996

Simon Armitage - I Say I Say I Say:

Anyone here had a go at themselves
for a laugh? Anyone opened their wrists
with a blade in the bath? Those in the dark
at the back, listen hard. Those at the front
in the know, those of us who have, hands up,
let's show that inch of lacerated skin
between the forearm and the fist. Let's tell it
like it is: strong drink, a crimson tidemark
round the tub, a yard of lint, white towels
washed a dozen times, still pink. Tough luck.
A passion then for watches, bangles, cuffs.
A likely story: you were lashed by brambles
picking berries from the woods. Come clean, come good,
repeat with me the punch line 'Just like blood'
when those at the back rush forward to say
how a little love goes a long long long way.

Fucktonnes of rhyme in there, just none of it at the end of the line - it drives the rhythm of the poem, and brings an immediacy to the whole thing that is exactly like a hectoring comic from back in the day, counterpointing the urgency and stupidity of suicide.

>>1886996
examples specifically of contemporary rhyme? Or specific forms or what?

>>1887008
There's plenty of end rhyme.

I'm not necessarily against rhyme, I'm just saying you should be aware of what it does to a poem. It can't just be a purely formal conceit (well, it can, but it'll be flat because of it).

I'm really into the idea of working steadily against a prescribed form, like Matt Hart's sonnets, which actually aren't really like sonnets at all.

>>1887008

Seamus Heaney,
Act of Union part i

To-night, a first movement, a pulse,
As if the rain in bogland gathered head
To slip and flood: a bog-burst,
A gash breaking open the ferny bed.
Your back is a firm line of eastern coast
And arms and legs are thrown
Beyond your gradual hills. I caress
The heaving province where our past has grown.
I am the tall kingdom over your shoulder
That you would neither cajole nor ignore.
Conquest is a lie. I grow older
Conceding your half-independant shore
Within whose borders now my legacy
Culminates inexorably.

It's a sonnet, but Heaney's not going to get his knickers in a know about obeying some other motherfucker's rules to the letter. Bredrin know how to use him rhyme an alla dem ting. Seen.

>>1887014
Well, anything you think might spice up the thread a bit and contribute to the discussion. Examples of contemporary rhyme sure seems to fit the bill. But hell, go wild, I don't care

>>1887008
>in the know
>let's show

Fabrication of Ancestors
by Alan Dugan

For old Billy Dugan, shot in the ass in the Civil War, my father said.

The old wound in my ass
has opened up again, but I
am past the prodigies
of youth’s campaigns, and weep
where I used to laugh
in war’s red humors, half
in love with silly-assed pains
and half not feeling them.
I have to sit up with
an indoor unsittable itch
before I go down late
and weeping to the storm-
cellar on a dirty night
and go to bed with the worms.
So pull the dirt up over me
and make a family joke
for Old Billy Blue Balls,
the oldest private in the world
with two ass-holes and no
place more to go to for a laugh
except the last one. Say:
The North won the Civil War
without much help from me
although I wear a proof
of the war’s obscenity.

>>1887040
hmm, how about an interesting link I found

http://www.contemporaryrhyme.com/

I'll see if I can't pick some of what I find in there, but for now I'm just going to have a read
But as for older poems, I'm a fan of rondeau type stuff

Jenny kiss’d me when we met,
Jumping from the chair she sat in;
Time, you thief, who love to get
Sweets into your list, put that in!
Say I’m weary, say I’m sad
Say that health and wealth have miss’d me,
Say I’m growing old, but add
Jenny kiss’d me

flanders feilds I believe was a rondeau

We really need to stop having frequent poetry threads.

No one knows anything of the topic, and they are always embarrassing to read.

>>1887062
Not true, I know a fucking lot about poetry.

I'm a published poet and an MFAfag

>>1887062
Well, feel free to enlighten us, dear anon. As I said in OP post, i'm curious about the subject.

I'm okay with rhyme if it's kept to a minimum. But I think it can show a certain mastery that free verse can't always demonstrate. Free verse poems with a hint of rhyme are some of my favorites.

Man and Wife - Robert Lowell

Tamed by Miltown, we lie on Mother's bed;
the rising sun in war paint dyes us red;
in broad daylight her gilded bed-posts shine,
abandoned, almost Dionysian.
At last the trees are green on Marlborough Street,
blossoms on our magnolia ignite
the morning with their murderous five day's white.
All night I've held your hand,
as if you had
a fourth time faced the kingdom of the mad -
its hackneyed speech, its homicidal eye -
and dragged me home alive. . . . Oh my Petite,
clearest of all God's creatures, still all air and nerve:
you were in your twenties, and I,
once hand on glass
and heart in mouth,
outdrank the Rahvs in the heat
of Greenwich Village, fainting at your feet -
too boiled and shy
and poker-faced to make a pass,
while the shrill verve
of your invective scorched the traditional South.

Now twelve years later, you turn your back.
Sleepless, you hold
your pillow to your hollows like a child,
your old-fashioned tirade -
loving, rapid, merciless -
breaks like the Atlantic Ocean on my head.

>>1887069

I'm not him, but I'm also a published poet, and my PhD was on Wordsworth and the Concept of Freedom in the Romantic Poetic.

I still know fuck all about poetry though - I learn every day

>>1887158
MFA guy here. I wasn't trying to sound like an authority or anything, and certainly I learn every day. I still like to think I know what I'm talking about sometimes (not that nobody else does, or that one must have some sort of degree to be qualified).

even behemoth got his poetry published somehow

>>1887020

Heaney uses rhyme a lot in his poetry, and since he is pretty much the guv'nor when it comes to modern English poetry, then to say that rhyme has no place today is absolutely imbecilic. Come back when you can win the Forward prize with stuff you pull out of your arse on the morning of the competition, and maybe we can talk seriously.

>>1887169

I wasn't actually having a dig (I know, 4chan, eh?) - just trying to prove to that other dickhead that some people here have actually got some time under their belt on this subject.

I've spent almost my entire adult life studying poetry, I honestly think it's the most important thing in the world, and even in shit-ass threads like this, I still learn new things. That's the joy of the artform.

If you are forced to choose between food and poetry, which would you choose?

>>1887172

Whereas you've never published anything in your worthless life, other than unlettered and ill-educated posts in /lit/.

and you never will, either, you waste of fucking space.

>>1887185

I was in the bookshop the other day, and I had 10 euros in my account till payday 2 days later, and I found a copy of Anna Akhmatova's collected poems discounted to 9 euros. So I bought the book, then a pack of french fries, and then I ate bread until payday.

So I guess I'd say poetry - although if I hadn't had bread in my house, I may have chosen differently.

I gave the book away to a Serbian girl about a day later.

So I'd chose poetry, then women, then food. Maybe I'm broken?

>>1887186
y so mad?

>>1887196

Because you're such a cunt.

>>1887192
Oh my god nobody reads Akhmatova thank you for buying that.

>>1887203
y so mad?

>>1887210

Wow. You actually deleted your previous post. You really are a cunt.

>>1887226
y so mad?

>>1887228

Looks like thread's over everyone. Fucktardery has arrived. Shame really, because this thread had some interesting posts.

Saged and reported but I doubt it will do any good because I don't know if we even have mods.

Thanks to all who contributed seriously - some food for thought.

>>1887192
>So I'd chose poetry, then women, then food. Maybe I'm broken?

hahah...aw

>So I'd chose poetry, then women, then food. Maybe I'm broken?

He's got his shit together better than Desiderius Erasmus anyway

>>1886821
>the use of rhyme in poetry
essential, but not mandatory

>>1886839

Dylan thomas may not have been massive on rhyming poetry, but one of his best known poems is a perfect example of how rhyme can be subordinated to genius and made into a timeless masterpiece. The Villanelle is one of the toughest forms to write (in my opinion), and Thomas wrote possibly the greatest one ever:

DO NOT GO GENTLE INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

>>1887277

Thomas may have been the better poet (debatably), but I know that I would rather go to bed with Sylvia Plath (fact). So here's one by here as well:

Mad Girl's Love Song

"I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead;
I lift my lids and all is born again.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)

The stars go waltzing out in blue and red,
And arbitrary blackness gallops in:
I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead.

I dreamed that you bewitched me into bed
And sung me moon-struck, kissed me quite insane.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)

God topples from the sky, hell's fires fade:
Exit seraphim and Satan's men:
I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead.

I fancied you'd return the way you said,
But I grow old and I forget your name.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)

I should have loved a thunderbird instead;
At least when spring comes they roar back again.
I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)"

>>1887304

I would take a nice bath
With Sylvia Plath
And sit there and soak all day

I'd give her some lovin'
With her head in an oven
Even then she would be a good lay

-Me

>>1887364