/lit/ - Literature

>>19048607
IM DEBOOKING OH GOD

What happened to platonism general can't find anything in the archives wtf.

>>19048616
The fact you have that picture saved and canned response ready is more S O Y than anything than I have said.

>>19048607
Based. Still fucking twinks, though.

>>19048607
It makes perfect sense. Thanks for sharing these crucial facts brother.

>>19048607
To my reading, I can somewhat agree. the relationships described are not just male-female sexually bonded pairs copypasted to two men. its phenomonoly and conceptually seperate unlike what homos seem like today.

However, there was, depending on the relationship, some aspect of eroticness too it, though again, distinct from the concept of today, so I believe it causes misconceptions both ways with pro homos and antihomos.
In many ways its more similar to a master-aprentice relationship, but not always, again its distinct.

>>19048607
>noooo don't look at the scholarly consensus look at this unsourced rant on an infographic I found randomly on /pol/
>noooo sexual morality couldn't possibly have been divergent from Abrahamic law in Ancient Greece because that's icky
>yes my argument is based on some vague feelings about some translations I read and not exegesis, no I don't know no greek, and if you call me out I will call you a pozzed fag
Cringe

IIRC, the greeks fucked eachother out of respect and admiration and teachers usually fucked their students, same way that that philosopher from lesbos held orgies with her students.
Either way, there were plenty of faggots in the greek myths, according to the collection by Robert Graves, Apollo lusted after a young teen, who was also desired by one of the winds, but since the wind couldn't have him he kills him, Narcissus was also desired by men, Orpheus preached gay love (while also diddiling 13 year olds) and Zeus had a gay lover named Ganimedes.

>>19048607
>we wuz str8

>>19048868
>scholarly consensus
>meaning fuck all

>>19048896
>the greeks fucked eachother out of respect and admiration and teachers usually fucked their students, same way that that philosopher from lesbos held orgies with her students
do you even comprehend how delusional that sounds

>>19048607
In many ways yes. But Athens WAS a hotspot for pederasty a bit before, during and a bit after, the Peloponesian war.

>>19048868
Modern day scholars can't even come to a concensus on gender pronouns. Why should I accept their word as law?

>>19048944
That said, Sparta and many other city-states did outlaw/ban homosexuality/pederasty.

>>19048931
>waah wahh scholarly consensus doesn't mean anything because it goes against my fees fees

You're the equivalent of baby in a supermarket throwing a temper tantrum. Get a life.

>>19048945
Do you know the difference between a prescriptive and a descriptive statement?

Sexuality is as much an artificial construct as morality

>>19048607

>>19048930
>>19048868

Tell me, back before the systematic desensitization of homesexuality, what would be the average man's reaction be to seeing two men kissing each other? Your average man would look away in disgust. This is an instinctual reaction. You're telling me instinct wasn't present 2000 years ago?

>>19048995
>This is an instinctual reaction.

>>19048607
Cant believe an image with a wall of text and no sources with words like 'leftist' and 'libtard' could be so convincing that someone saved it.

Fuck /pol/. Please leave, faggot.

>>19048931
They were keen on admiration.
Where do you think the term lesbian comes from, anon?

>>19048995
your post demonstrates that it's possible to completely condition someone's "instinctual reaction" to homos (systematic desensitization).

how do you know that the opposite case, ie: systematic sensitization of homosexuality isn't the reality? You could easily make the argument that we systematically made homos a target and now nobody follows that tradition anymore.

>>19048607
Of course, it's marxists and trannies projecting because everything needs to conform to their delusions by obfuscating and lying about nuances of translations

>>19049056
Think back to when you were a child or adolescent. Do you remember the gay kid always getting picked on? This is before we really understood what "gay" was. I don't condone this type of behavior but it definitely occurred and it didn't appear to be taught.

>>19048964
*outlawed it in the public

Straightness is the mark of a barbarian.

>>19049046
Lesbos (Sappho) - Lesbia (Catullus)
Swinburne: Sapphics (Poem - 1866)
Thespis (Actor/Dramatist)
Tribadism (Scissoring)
>>19049066
Why not just accept that a portion of their population would he considered homosexual by modern convention? Does it really diminish us (or them) to acknowledge a predilection for intercrural romance with Ganymede?

>>19048985
this btfos poltards and homophobic lit diletantes

>>19049103
>Why not just accept that a portion of their population would he considered homosexual by modern convention? Does it really diminish us (or them) to acknowledge a predilection for intercrural romance with Ganymede?
Oh I'm sure there were a few genuine homosexuals, as in every society, but the claim that is often made that among the Greeks homosexuality was common practice and encouraged is disingenuous.

>>19049108
>/pol/ infographic
>omg so true
jfc

>>19049108
You can be homophobic and recognize there are great gay artists. Everyone knows alcoholism is bad but there are countless great alcoholic artists

>>19049130
>Greeks homosexuality was common practice
It definitely was.

>and encouraged
You had to slip this in to strawman the opposite position. No one has ever said it was encouraged. But it was definitely a common thing and accepted to some degree, thereby proving that the mid twentieth century neuroses around homossexuality (that still carry over to today) weren't some innate fact about humans as such, but had a very high degree of social conditioning behind it.

>>19049139
nice cope my man
>>19049142
well, obviously there are great gays, only absolutely shitfaced poltard could deny it, but thats not the point

>>19049156
No, this is what I meant. This is disingenuous anachronistic garbage spouted by marxists and trannies. All of this is based on wrongful translations of terms that have no direct equivalent in modern language(s) and wishful thinking by degenerates.
>>19049160
Seethe, tranny

>>19048607
>a complete exaggeration
Yes, but not entirely one. There is some truth, stretched out to pad the pockets of garbage classicists with nothing to write about. It's a matter of interpretation, and classicists are fags.
>>19048868
>scholarly consensus
lmaoing at your life. pseud midwit go back to STEM.
>>19049156
It wasn't. It was an urban and an elite practice, even if you do accept the more broad belief. We have virtually no indication of homosexuality's acceptance across all of the states and among the lower or slave population.

>>19049178
>on wrongful translations of terms
example?

The Greeks invented love; the Romans introduced it to women

>>19049180
Homosexuality was tolerated in some Greek Cities, even Plato affirms that and he was on the opposite camp. And even in Athens the legal penalties were not enforced in the Classical period at least.424ky

>>19049180
>among the lower or slave population.
Wellll, I reckon they best done learn to accept it

>>19049084
even if it was true that childhood/adolescence was a pure and natural state untainted by adulthood and social opinions, kids pick on each other for literally anything they can get their hands on. I do remember the faggy kids that hung out with girls getting picked on. But, I feel as though if you liked or did anything that wasn't the norm, like read books or talked about computers, you were picked on, even if everything else about you was normal. I don't think it's instinctual to hate books and computers, so much as it is instinctual to follow the opinions of the majority.

>>19049178
>This is disingenuous anachronistic garbage
nope

>marxists and trannies
I'm the most milquetoast soc-dem you can find and I happen to hate commies. Do you believe in the boogeyman too?

>All of this is based on wrongful translations of terms
like what?

>>19049180
>It was an urban
no shit, we're talking about the CITY of Athens

>We have virtually no indication of homosexuality's acceptance across all of the states
So? That doesn't change anything. The fact it was somewhat accepted by the citizens show's that hatred for homossexuals is not an innate drive.

>>19048607
>not unlike soldiers
>soldiers are gay
based retard

>>19049004
>>19048995
>projecting cultural response onto a different culture under the guise of instinct

>>19049218
>we're talking about the CITY of Athens
Then why the fuck did we say GREEK homosexuality? Y'know, talking about ANCIENT GREECE. Stupid fuck. You trying to make /pol/ look smart or something?
>That doesn't change anything
Sacrifice was a common practice. Local god worship were common practices. Homosexuality was not.

>>19049218
>nope
Yep, have you ever translated Ancient Greek?
>I'm the most milquetoast soc-dem you can find and I happen to hate commies. Do you believe in the boogeyman too?
You are no different in this regard from them. You believe in the same ideals as they do, you just differ on how to get there. You live within the framework they have established.
>like what?
Different notions of love. The fact that there is still a debate on the nature of the relationship between Achilles and Patroklos is ridiculous since the form of their oath-brotherhood is very common among pagan Indo-European warrior troops and did not have a homosexual element to it.

>>19049046
The term lesbian is only applied to dykes starting in the early 20th century.

>>19049245
>Then why the fuck did we say GREEK homosexuality?
Because Athens was part of greece you autistic fucking retard.

>>19049245
>Homosexuality was not.
You can keep repeating this all you want. It still won't make it true.

I know you want to find some solace in hating gay people because you're just overall shit at life. But believe me, that won't cure your autism or your retardation. Back to /pol/ faggot.

>>19049249
>Achilles and Patroklos
what does this have to do with anything?

>have you ever translated Ancient Greek?
yes, you sure as shit haven't

>You believe in the same ideals as they do, you just differ on how to get there.
what ideals? not hating gay people?

>You live within the framework they have established.
lol

>>19049303
>>Greeks homosexuality was common practice
>>we're talking about the CITY of Athens
>Athens was part of greece
You are literally actually fucking retarded. I'm not convinced you've read a single ancient greek text.
>literally no response
as expected, just a lost redditor with no grasp of the subject trying to cling to 'scholarly consensus' and /pol/ accusations without even an ounce of understanding of the subject. You ought to go to /pol/, considering you only care about modern faggotry and defending your poop dick fetish.

>>19049303
In Plato’s Phardrus, Plato says that the working people are not gay. Lysias says via a letter that the non lover is noble, as opposed to the lover, and Socrates says that one ought to tell the working men that quote. Pretty obvious he’s implying that because only the elites engage in pederasty the poor feel themselves to be inferior. Only the aristocrats were homo, as was also the case in 19th and 20th century europe

>>19049303
>what does this have to do with anything?
Are you retarded? They are Ancient Greek characters of whom woke academians love to speculate if they were lovers
>yes, you sure as shit haven't
Too bad for you, I have. Also a few other ancient languages.
>what ideals? not hating gay people?
Your ideals of how humanity/society should function, fuckface. Where do you think your morals come from? What are the origins of social democracy? Not the ancient Greeks, I can tell you that. You (and not only you, the same goes for liberals, libertarians and conservatives - don't think I'm singling you out) live within the same framework, you just have internal disagreements.

It's the common mistake where people conflate the aristocracy or a small influental group with the whole population

>ugh men have had so much power and privilege in history...
>*ignores swathes of low-value men who get drafted and killed in wars*
and so on

>>19048976
You write like a colossal faggot

>>19048607
>I really don’t want the greeks to fit under the modern understanding of homosexuality so here’s my elaborate cope

>>19048607
I wish “non serious intellectuals” would go home to pol.

There is abundant evidence of gays throughout history ESPECIALLY in intellectual pursuits like literature and the arts. Nevertheless some of you midair pol lovers with dick aversion come to this board and try to gaslight others and deny our existence and our heritage. We’re the ones who belong here not you.

Do you see us trying to argue everybody on the Cowboys or Man-U is gay…the way they grab each other’s ass. No because it’s not true.

Now if it hurts your sensibilities that there’s a bunch of authors that you read who like dick then put their book down and get the fuck out of here.

>>19050099
>Gaslight
Concept Creep in action. You mean you were emotionally invalidated. Not gaslit. Let's use the words as they're defined, hmmm.

>>19048607
>that images
Post the fucking quotes from Aischines or anything other than retarded rhetoric.

>>19050099
Post your evidence instead of this retarded rant

>>19050299

someone post the debunking the debunking graphic

>>19048607
the wiki page for homosexuality in ancient greece is mostly full of citation needed and dead links, very curious indeed

>>19050299
Evidence…if I told you I was devoting my life to carve statues of naked men. What would you think? Is that was heteros do with their free time?

You can find plenty of examples in this thread but you have to have some serious flat earth mentality to think this culture didn’t have some serious gayness going on.

>>19048931
>>19048945
>>19049180
>Muh scholars is dumb n' we autodidacts is smart haha! Academia is for big dumb dumbs! Schopenhauer and Nietzsche said so!
Yes, the men who get paid to read Plato in the original ancient Greek and spend their entire academic careers thinking, writing and formulating consensuses regarding the interpretation of preeminent philosophers, know less than a bunch of pseud's who read Penguin's Plato in translation. Good one.

>>19048607
it's a grain of truth stretched and exaggerated to make you think ancient greeks were mincing faggots and so you must accept trannies today

>>19048607
Sometimes you'll find bullshit like the homosexual encyclopedia being used as references for baseless claims with regards to this particular topic.

>>19048867
The only ancient reference that I know off-hand which mentions men taking men as bedfellows the way a man would ordinarily take a woman is in the story of Lot, which is in the Bible and Qur'an.

>>19050428
>>19051586
>no evidence

There was no love relations from homosexuals in ancient times, rather, there were groups of friends experimenting with each other, treating each other as toys. There was also sexual affirmation of hierarchy and superiority in society. Curiously, both of these actitudes have been found on most species, specially primates, and etologist have been recording them since the start.

>>19052829
Only the Athenians were mincing faggots

SPARTANS WERE HEROIC HOMOSEX

>>19049466
Seethe more you dumbfuck nigger

>>19048607
In order to understand ancient homosexuality you've to understand the distinction between gynephilia and androphilia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androphilia_and_gynephilia
I would say that practically all ancient homosexuals were gynephiles. i.e that they were attracted to femininity, which is why they were attracted to boys but not men. This is a form of warped heterosexuality, which explains why cultures with enforced heterosexuality like Christians or Jews were so vehemently opposed to "homosexuality". It was essentially a learnable fetish which could be forgotten by focusing on not being a degenerate.

Notice that there are barely any records of adult men loving and having sexual intercourse with masculine adult men. Androphilic "masc4masc" or "gay bears" did not exist in the ancient world, which are a product of pre-natal environment and genetics, something that could've changed in the past 150 years or so.

And thus even if homosexuality did exist in the ancient world, it was of a different type and could be easily cured through conversion therapy unlike modern homosexuality which is much more innate, so it's dishonest to compare both.

Boy fucking will never be homosexuality and is the domain of degenerate straight men, cope seethe and dilate.

>>19049156

0 proofs homosexuality was a "common" practice among common folk or the aristocracy. By common, I mean more than maybe 3% of the population. And the recorded commentators on homosexuality in the ancient world are mostly intelligent men of high social standing, as manuscripts were rare, expensive, and unlikely to last over time. So the dispute over "instinctive" disgust towards homosexuality doesn't mean much since contemplating and writing about the issue is the purview of contemplative men. The common rabble do not usually herd abstract, ethical or aesthetic concerns. Psychological studies not only demonstrate a regular disgust reaction, but further disgust towards male bottoms over male tops. That is a male performing the passive sexual role is looked down upon much more than the active role. This comports with the classical contempt for sexual passivity for men, and is likely instinctive since it's a marker for secondary sex characteristics (a lack of masculinity).

>>19053534

There were definitely degenerate fuckheads in Rome. But probably no more than 1-2% like in America, or probably 5-10% if we're including all abnormal sexual vices. Maybe more than that, normies practice sodomy regularly so I guess it depends where you set the bar

>>19049189
>anon btfo at the first gentle suggestion that he provide sources.

>>19052817
>desperate tranny depressed xir appeal to authority no longer works

>>19053288
Here’s the book. You still won’t read it though. Like trying to prove to a flat earther that the world is round.

>>19053545
Theres plenty of proof. You refuse to read any of it. Why don’t you pick up literally any academic book on the subject.

Why don’t you cite some evidence that there was disgust towards homosexuality in the Greek world. How come there was so many statues of baked men. It was only the Jesus lovers in their disgust of the male body that had the statues castrated and a leaf put over them.

>>19053835
>nude bodies = prevalent gays
come on man. greeks worshipped fitness not your asshole

>>19053827
Post some evidence from the book

>>19053827
posting a book cover that says gay Greeks means nothing, you're not even citing it. Probably haven't even read it yourself

Doesn't matter. We have a direct continuation of exactly what the Greeks meant into periods were records were more common and often enough well preserved. Medieval and Renaissance era homosexuality was considered Grecian.

>>19053845
From The Symposium

>>19053845
From Greek Religon by Walter Burkett

>>19048640
Jannies hate good threads

>>19053845
From A Brief a history of Ancient Greece

>>19048607
In Phaedro Plato describes the love of young boys as something good. He says that celibate love is better than sex but, that, when carried out properly and without hubris, pederasty won't chain the soul to the body and that only a sage or true philosopher could have the willpower to resist it.
While greek homosexuality was different to the modern pozzed conception it's undeniable that master-apprentice relationships frequently involved sex.

>>19053971
there's zero mention of anything gay here, he's going to a dinner
>>19053976
what's he citing

>>19053982
posting some modern person asserting greeks were homos isn't proof

>>19053995
>post source!
>posts an scholar who refers to original texts
>no, this is not a valid source!!!!!!
cope levels too strong

>>19054000
it isn't a source, it's a modern scholar asserting it. might as well be a 4chan poster for all its legitimacy

>>19054002
>who refers to original texts
did you miss this part or willfully ignored it?

>>19048868
>appeal to consensus fallacy
Yikes

>>19048868
>>noooo don't look at the scholarly consensus look at this unsourced rant on an infographic I found randomly on /pol/
If you are a STEMbug, then explain the scholarly consensus on phlogiston, or better yet on the geocentric model.
Worse yet, there is NO authoritative "consensus" in value-ladden humanities, ESPECIALLY so in history. You can have three neighbouring countries have mutually exclusive consensus on interpreting the exact same number of material and textual findings, for centuries. Even inside the same country - see Normanists and Anti-Normanists in Russia, who can't agree on the role of Norse men in early Russia for 200 years already.

>>19054005
>How much physical sexual activity actually was involved is unclear
wow cool evidence
>sexual relationships of this type were so highly valued that respectable women would in fact have love affairs with unmarried girls
right, right after it's stated that they don't actually know the sexual situation of those relationships, and they know even less of the female ones. not evidence

>>19054005
He's only quoting Plutarch who lived many centuries later and only talks about women not men

>>19053995
Let’s just get to the root of the problem. You’re straight and you have no understanding of what it means to like men. It’s imaginary to you. Imagine if I were your friend and I drew naked men would you say I just appreciate beauty. Or if I described a man as beautiful….would you still think I’m straight?

Try reading “philosophy between the lines” by Arthur Melzer. You have to allow for some interpretation. Historically people have not been as forthright as they are today.

>>19054046
don't assume you know jack shit about anyone you dumb fuck

>>19054046
The root of the problem is that you've been shitposting all thread and have not yet posted any evidence for your claims

>>19054021
>>19054023
>ignores Ephorus, who literally talks about how men would woo boys and would go into countryside for honeymoon
yeah sure greeks were hecking wholesome straighterinos!

>>19054066
any evidence this countryside retreat involved gay sex?

>>19054066
You mean when men were teaching boys to hunt? Post your evidence already dumb fuck

>>19054059
I’ve given you a book on the subject (which I don’t own so I can’t post quotes). I’m given you modern authors whom you say are irrelevant because meh modern. I’ve given you some “homo conversation” from Plato which you deny. Just like the moby dick threads….it’s normal back then to sleep with your friends. Lol.

Upthread there’s an entire catalog of ancient books with gayness which you deny.

You’ve given absolutely ZERO evidence good or bad that homosexuality was condemned.

At this point you’re the flat earther. I could build a time machine and you could go back in time and witness it yourself and you would still deny it (oh that doesn’t count their balls aren’t touching….lol)

>>19054084
it's pretty clear you, and the people you're citing, are applying your own assumptions to ancient men's behaviour and assuming they must be having gay sex. there's no evidence, only conjecture. and then you have the gall to call him a flat earther, as if you haven't been making shit up this whole time

>>19054084
>I've provided no evidence why are you not convinced it are you a flat earther??
Take your meds

>>19054076
>>19054077
we are talking about whether greeks were homos, not if they buttfucked each other. Stop moving goalposts

>>19054105
>ohh a hunting lodge means they were gay
real cool i'm convinced

>>19054096
What is your standard of proof? What would it take for you to be convinced that homosexuality existed in some form and was accepted?

Apparently the word of those who’ve studied it their entire lives isn’t enough.

>>19054105
Hunting together is not gay retard

>>19054116
my standard of proof is evidence that what they were engaged in was gay and that it was pervasive and widely accepted. you've provided excerpts either with no references at all, or citing passages that describe male bonding and are applying a homosexual lens to it, for no reason. there is no evidence in what you are posting, only conjecture. those "scholars" are just as bad if not worse

>>19048640
Eventually ceased to be active when it got moved to /his/. Even the discord is not that active anymore.

>>19054116
Written evidence from Archaic, Classical, or even Hellenistic Greece condoning homosexuality explicitly.

>>19054114
>>19054117
>men kidnapping boys in analogy of Zeus gayness and giving them presents is just neutral initiation to.... you know.. just hunting
lmao, Theognis literally complains about his male lover, Plato often refers to gay sex that is done right etc. You have to be acting blind on purpose.

>>19054125
prove it was initiation into a homosexual relationship. fucking sick of repeating it, these excerpts are not evidence they're extrapolation and assumptions

>>19054125
You're just googling random crap and pasting it here. Post your evidence instead. Primary sources

>>19054125
>it was normal and openly accepted but I can't find one document referring to it explicitly because... IT WAS NORMAL OK?!

>>19054130
Theognis
25. [lines 1341-1350]

Alas, I am in love with a soft-skinned boy, who to all my friends
Reveals that this is true, though he does so against my will.
I shall endure without concealment the many outrages done in my despite,
For not ill-favored is the boy whose conquest I am shown to be.
The love of boys has given delight ever since Ganymede
Was loved by Kronos' son himself, king of the immortals,
Who seized and brought him up to Olympos and made him
Divine, possessing as he did the lovely bloom of boyhood.
So do not be amazed, Simonides, that I as well have been
Shown to be conquered by love for a handsome boy.
>These verses are excerpted from Andrew M. Miller (transl.), Greek Lyric: An Anthology in Translation (Indianpolis: Hackett 1996)
Also, >>19053986

>>19054143
He literally says it's controversial and not accepted and he wishes to conceal it, so then you admit homosexuality was not approved of in ancient Greece and you managed to find evidence for it too

>>19054143
i feel like you're fucking trolling. a poem about a beautiful boy is not evidence of a cultural practice and the poem even goes against it being common

>>19054084
>You’ve given absolutely ZERO evidence good or bad that homosexuality was condemned.
Here you go >>19054143

>>19054122
I know this is slightly off topic. But you’re an atheist right? I would assume if you have this standard of proof there’s no way you can believe Jesus was the son of God.

Brazillian here. Normalfags are degenerate fucks who will fuck everything. Conservatives talk about how they fucked some gay sissy whe they were 16 like it's a normal conversation. Romance cultures are degenerate homo shit.

Yeah OP, Alexander definitely did NOT fuck Hephaiston. The Sacred Band of Thebes were just good chums too.

>>19054162

>>19054162
So you admit believing homosexuality was widespread in Greece is just a matter of blind faith right?

>>19048868
>Abrahamic law
Natural law ftfy

>>19054149
>>19054150
>>19054153
I didnt say it was all pervasive, my argument is that there were cases of homosexuality that werent viewed so negatively as to be outright banned. How then would you explain Plato's passage in Symposium, where speakers hold gay sex higher than hetero, or the passages in Phaedrus where Socrates talks about giving in homo sex?

>>19054170
That texts have meaning or specific meaning is a matter of blind faith. Stop pulling hermeneusis out when you’re losing like its some kind of trap card.

>>19054178
>my argument is that there were cases of homosexuality that werent viewed so negatively as to be outright banned.
I don't disagree with this. But this thread is about it being pervasive

>>19054170
It’s nothing about faith. We have to draw conclusions with limited information. I think you’re demanding an unreasonable burden of proof. Talking about male beauty, making statues of naked men, poems about men. I think this indicates some gayness was going on. We do t know how prevalent it was. That’s impossible to measure. But to deny it and say it didn’t exist or was not likely is to deny the evidence right before your eyes.

>>19054179
Losing what retard? I'm not even that same guy and no one posted evidence for homosexuality being pervasive only some idiot posted by mistake evidence that homosexuality was condemned

>>19054186
Not my fault you're a retard who can't follow a conversation. This thread is about it being pervasive not if gays existed. Obviously they did we have some stuff even in epic of Gilgamesh.

>>19054178
>that werent viewed so negatively as to be outright banned
Very, very few things could actually be banned back then to any effect. No pre-modern society was strict legalistic. Even Roman law was a fucking mess. And the existence of laws doesn't necessarily mean they were upheld or regarded well or didn't have extra context.

>>19054188
I see you have the taste to be ashamed of going meta but not the courtesy to apologise to everyone.

>>19054218
Meds

>>19048607
>I started down this path after reading Plato's Symposium. They were speaking about being "lovers" or some other synonym and it just didn't align with the context of the sentence. It more aligned with friendship than homosexuality.
I think you're just misunderstanding the nature of ancient pederasty. Laws about the practice differed from city to city (look back at Pausanias' speech in the Symposium), and in some cases sodomy was supposed to be punished by death (though scholars of ancient laws point out that punishment seemed to be inconsistently carried out). Pederasty, understood as an ideal by the Greeks, was supposed to a loving relationship characterized by lover-beloved, usually between an older established man and a younger one on the cusp of manhood, with the older teaching the younger how to be a man while nonetheless having a wife (otoh, Phaedrus and Eryximachus in Symposium are close in age), so there wasn't necessarily the kind of exclusivity we find today in hetero or homosexuality.

By the by, the term in the Symposium translated as "love" is "eros", which is the kind of loving desire one feels for a beloved; it usually has sexual overtones but it doesn't have to. "Friendship" translates "philos", which is the kond of love one has for friends and family, though it can be translated as "love" (that's how it usually gets translated in a logic chopping passage of the Euthyphro).

Look back at Alcibiades' speech in the Symposium. He bristles at the fact that sleeping with Socrates was totally unsexual; he was expecting to gratify him somehow (usually it was fucking the thighs).

>>19054226
Post evidence that homosexuality was illegal

>>19048867
>unlike what homos seem like today.
Honestly anon, what do you even know about this? Nothing, is my guess.

>>19054238
>>>/lgbt/

>>19049353
Are you talking about 243c? If so, that's not what that passage says. Socrates is saying that Lysias' thesis that the beloved should gratify the non-lover instead of the lover would sound absurd to nobles who would think Lysias was hanging around sailors who behave like the crazy jealous lovers Lysias characterizes.

>>19054197
I’m sorry the sexual census records from the 3rd-5th century bce were lost in tte great fire of Alexandria.

>>19054230
I didn't say homosexuality was illegal, I said there were laws punishing sodomy that scholars of Greek law agree was inconsistently carried out.

>>19054258
Yeah post evidence of these laws

>>19054241
No one who browses /lgbt/ (or rather /tranny/ as it should be known) has any right to comment on reality.

>>19048607
>trying to rewrite history to fit your christian agenda
>on a cambodian fishing message board

>>19054264
Don't have it on hand to cite, but Dover's Greek Homosexuality discusses it for at least Athens. It was limited to "free men", no one gave a shit what slaves or foreigners did.

>>19048607
How about a truce. The gays will give back the rainbow that they stole from Noah and the Christian heteros will acknowledge that the Greeks were gay af. Deal?

>>19054297
How about you post your evidence or fuck off

>>19054302
Lol no one's preventing you from downloading books off of libgen you can search function through you lazy faggot

>>19048896
>Apollo lusted after a young teen, who was also desired by one of the winds, but since the wind couldn't have him he kills him, Narcissus was also desired by men, Orpheus preached gay love (while also diddiling 13 year olds) and Zeus had a gay lover named Ganimedes.
Could you quote the Greek authors?

>>19048607
>Could all of this be a giant misunderstanding because of poor translations?
Learn Attic Greek

>>19054320
Zeus and Ganymede is well known and mentioned in Homer but these myths had nothing to do with Greeks. They existed long before them.

>>19054297
The rainbow belongs to all the peoples of the book not only the Christians

>>19054302
I’ve posted evidence. Wasted a lot of time. Was hoping I would convince you.

Alas, we live in a post-truth world. You want an exceptionally high standard of proof one that frankly isn’t possible. Instead of looking at the myriad of indirect evidence and making reasonable conclusions it’s easier to believe that there’s an “agenda” pushed by the invisible hand behind the stage who are conspiring with others to push the “globohomo” agenda.

>>19054369
Where's the evidence that Greeks were gay as fuck? Your posts are mostly arbitrary rants against imaginary opponents. The evidence in this thread says homosexuality was frowned upon.

>>19054393
they were gay enough to discuss making love with boys and homosexual love openly at drunk parties, you wouldnt be able to do that today and you wouldnt be able to do that if it was frowned upon "generally".

>>19054393
The problem is you want something explicit and direct and there now how people have written for millennia. The idea of direct on point communication like we’re doing now other than the last century has not been the norm.

You’ve denied every evidence put before you as not being homosexual even though if any of this was done today you would say gay. With respect to prevalence how are we really supposed to know…and I’m sure you would raise the bar for what it means to be gay.

You’re the one being unreasonable.

>>19054404
>>19054432
You only have cope and no evidence. You're delusional and you're imagining things. Everyone ITT has been patient with you and you've failed to provide anything else than conjecture. Don't be upset people don't entertain your baseless fantasy.

>>19054454
have you read symposium and phaedrus?

>>19054456
Yes. You've been doing this all this thread. I suggest you go compile your definitive list of evidence that homosexuality was prevalent in ancient Greece and you can post about it and people can discuss your evidence. I suggest you stop using secondary sources and provide the best primary evidence you can find and people can read your arguments and the counter arguments and they can arrive at their conclusion.

>>19054488
well, we can not know for sure whether it was pervasive, but we have textual evidence of greeks discussing boy love openly, which would be absolutely prohibited today. If that is not enough evidence for you that they were at least somewhat more open about boy love than we are, which is a lot, then dont reply to me.

>>19054505
If you concede the argument about it being prevalent and you're just arguing about this weaker version that man-boy love was less taboo than it is today then that's not controversial. We're very strict against anything resembling pedophilia in any way and it has nothing to do with homosexuals but with fighting pedophilia.

>>19054527
well, a lot of misunderstand itt stems from the fact that one group of people is arguing agaisnt what op wrote and another agaisnt op's imagine, I'm in the latter group. I dont think anyone, except maybe a couple of coombrain trannies, believe in the meme that gay sex was pervasive in greece. In any cay, we should bring back the same kind of youth worship found back then, bring down aoc to 14~ y/o like it was in greece.

>>19054550
>pedo argues against imaginary positions for the whole thread because he feels personally attacked
Seek help

>>19054568
well, you are also arguing against imaginary positions, we are in the same boat, sorry, shouldnt have said that, sounds too gay hihi

Yes ancient peoples be gay, but their idea of "gay" is much different then today's version. Anal sex was probably very uncommon due to the health concerns; only slave boys would be subjected to it, where as things like oral, frotting, and intercrural sex being much more common.

>>19054581
Show evidence of oral being common

>>19054454
Is this another example of no homo?…sleeping with the young “spearman”?

>>19054581
Why are people so fucking obsessed with anal sex?

>>19053971
This right here is why I'm asking if homesexuality is exaggerated or mistranslated. "Good-looking" could be synonymous for "important". If someone important invited you over wouldn't you make an effort to look presentable? Or does that make you gay?

>>19054595
Open your mouth and I will

>>19056413
Bruh, Agathon florts with Socrates and tries to scoot up to him when he gets there, and Socrates and Alcibiades argue at the end over who should get to lie down next to Agathon, this isn't university faggots blowing things out of proportion with Patroclus and Achilles in the Iliad, fuck Socrates pops a boner in the beginning of Charmides when the latter's robe falls open

No. Ancient man love was based and true. Christianity was a Jewish psy-op. And every “achievement” of the modern gay rights movement has been a compromise towards Christian ideals (marriage, adoption etc.) instead of embracing the unique beauty and exclusivity of our existence.

>>19054696
SO;

Back prior to video taped porn, pornography involved camera set-ups and lighting, which forced fixed mid-shot angles with portrayed the woman's body as the engulfing visible and the vulva/vagina as the invisible secret of femininity to be penetrated.

We may take it as read that the men wish to penetrate the secret of the woman? Yes? Yes. If you missed last week read Lacan until you understand penetrative sex in general.

So with the introduction of video and ultra-close-up the woman's vulva is revealed to be a visual object which is penetrated. The vulva takes the place of the woman as the site of femininity in general, as a visual symbol, but THE REAL SITE of femininity is now a new undisclosed penetrable. Cunts are now cocks. We are okay with cocks fucking cocks as heterosexual, as long as the cock has a hidden woman's secret. Vulvas, exposed to the male gaze, become objects, all objects are cocks. Women must have a non-object.

Enter the anus as undisclosed territory, difficult to film. As soon as you put a cock in an anus, the anus disappears. This is unlike the vulva where the vulva remains as a visual reminder that women are objects and therefore cocks. The anus is an object which disappears when conquered, and thus is permanently conquerable. The anus is the ultimate site of a guarantee that the person you are fucking is a woman, because it disappears and becomes undiscloseable.

The fetish with anal sex is inherently heterosexual, because men desire to see cocks, but fuck invisible cunts.

>>19057562
Thanks for the explanation, I guess. I'll have to get back to you regarding Lacan, anon.

>>19057562
It makes so much yet so little sense. It is a philosophical anus that I cannot make disappear with my reason's member...

>all of these people and acts are straight until proven gay
>instead of "all of these people are ambiguous until proven straight or gay"

>>19054238
I do think that was a little reductionist, but I dont think I was wrong. it seems like a lot of homo relations today take various aspects of more m-f relations. As an obvious example, marriage.

>>19057720
>instead of "all of these people are ambiguous until proven straight or gay"
the fact that they were born a priori predisposes the thought towards at least straightness.

>>19048607
No, it was definitely gay.

Thing you gotta realize is that Athens WAS in fact more anti-gay, it was Sparta where pederasty was more tolerated. But Alcibiades's family was "in" with the Spartans you might say, so him and other affluent Athenians might partake in the practice anyway (usually because of the power and prestige it could bring).

I believe Plato explicitly says their relationship never had penetration, which implies that penetration might be expected in such situations.

The Greeks were far less gay than faggots today like to imply but they did have flairs of it.

yeah no shit. also has nothing to do with with western LBGTetc because it's literally systemic pedophilia where it does exist and there is no notion of exclusively being attracted to males much less marriage.

>>19048995
Men used to kiss each other in Europe all the time.

>The fact you have that picture saved and canned response ready is more S O Y than anything than I have said.

>>19048607

I'm seeing a lot of words and no sources. Which I'm going to assume you're full of shit.

>>19049103
>Why not just accept that a portion of their population would he considered homosexual by modern convention?
because I thought by modern convention we don't have the right to append labels to people they themselves don't identify with. Isn't that the equivalent of misgendering someone? And since we can't ask them since they're all long dead, we should just refrain from appending modern labels.

>>19058637
Yeah nah historiography and classics don’t work like that. Fuck off bourgeois cunt.

>>19048607
The Athenian definition of gay love was having an old dude grooming some teenage twink into fucking him. If that isn't gay, I don't know what is.

>Greeks had laws against sodomy
>Plato hated faggots
>there’s no proof of faggotry being prevalent in Hellenic society other than modern faggots making conjectures
why is this thread still going on

>>19058843
There's a saying from medieval legal historiography:

If you have to keep making laws against it, it just keeps happening.

The gentleman does protest too much.

>>19058868
Oh look more conjecture who would’ve thought

>>19052817
>Yes, the men who get paid to read Plato in the original ancient Greek and spend their entire academic careers thinking, writing and formulating consensuses regarding the interpretation of preeminent philosophers, know less than a bunch of pseud's who read Penguin's Plato in translation. Good one.
Now apply this to fundamentalist bible scholars.

>>19058873
>Greeks had a law against sodomy
Sodomy existed
>Plato hated faggots
Faggots existed and were newsworthy in their number of impact.

You're an engineer aren't you? A self-loathing engineer. It is okay honey, its okay to want daddy's cock.

>>19053971
Literally 17th century aristocrats trying to outdo each other, Socrates is wearing his most expensive suit and whig because he us going to the home of a fashionable and good looking man.

>>19048896
even if you're not pulling that out of your sodomized asshole, the examples are for imparting certain things about the gods and not proof that everyone or even anyone was a sodomite.

>>19058885
False analogy because to believe the Bible requires either faith in the impossible or being a complete retard.

>>19058873
More conjecture. Which is more likely:

1. Straight person fails to see subtle signs of gayness.
2. Gay person wrongly categorizes straight person as gay.

The answer to this question determines who’s most likely right.