/lit/ - Literature

The first half of Spinoza's Tractatus Theologico-Politicus somewhat

>>19447522
Magic is real, the problem is transvaluing the value of magic.

>>19447533
ah yes, it makes sense

>>19447533
This is not a question of being real or not, and I didn't said that magic (whatever you might call with that name) is necessarily wrong but the attitude which I explained in the original post is what I reject. To give some examples, this attitude is obviosuly present in the new-age trend but also in certain authors like Carl Jung for example, some anon posted a quote from his memories which confirmed that he should be added to this list.

>>19447522
Marx and dialectical materialism refutes supernatural nonsense, religious phooey, magick, and other crap once and for all.

>>19447559
I am in favour of religion, this was about the modern new-age approach to it, so stop shilling your marxist garbage on my thread.

>>19447522
>It seems that people were so devastated by atheism that they started to embrace any sort of supernatural experience, without any discernment or purpose.
Do you really need a book to refute retards role playing as sages and wizards on twitter?

>>19447522
Magic is not real except demonic posession with the appearance of magic. Miracles real and well attested. Even skeptical scientists cant come up with explanations for certain phenomena which results in two mechanisms: massive scientific cope or trying to sweep the phenomena under the rug and hope it gets forgotten. Jesus is coming back so repent and change your life.

>>19447522
Cicero

>>19447522
Rene Guenon approached this topic in some of his books but you will only find a few chapters on it in "The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times" and a chapter on ceremonial magic in "Perspectives on Initiation". He might be what you were looking for.

Yeah, Dawkins wrote a lot on this. The Magic of Reality goes over this. If you want some stuff on materialism and physicalist theories of the mind, go check out Daniel Dennett.

>>19447618
not interested in atheist garbage
>>19447614
I will check him out, thanks

>>19447522
You might want to take a look at this then. I know you’re not a practicing Christian but I think you’ll be able to understand Rose’s framework.

Get your UFOs and Machine Elves ready cuz they gonna get BTFO’D

>>19447578

Why aren't miracles magic?

>>19447625
>not interested in atheist garbage
But you said
>Is there any book which refutes the experience of magical, psychic, subconscious, etc. phenomena?
that's what atheism is all about.
>no i want gigabased trad stuff
Then you're not going to get it. Rene Guenon defended the ancient and very trad Medieval Christian practice of Crystal Healing. Hell, Guenon plagiarized Blavatsky, who is the founder of Theosophy. The Church Fathers believed that touching a Jew's skin would heal all of your wounds. Cromwell practiced hermeticism, as did Martin Luther. Every single Pope after Honorius III is confirmed to have been a user of the Picatrix. Evola hung out with unironic hollow-earthers.

>>19447635
To add on to this: Seraphim Rose, who >>19447632 brings up, was a drug using hippie and a homosexual prostitute.

If you just want low-IQ prot stuff talking about how wicca is evil but Israel is amazing, skip LARPers like Rose or Kent Hovind and just go to church. The people you want to engage with don't write books that aren't pic related.

>>19447635
>The Church Fathers believed that touching a Jew's skin would heal all of your wounds
Lmao. When did they say this?

>>19447559
...and replaces it with its own brand of nonsense, phooey and crap... and now also behaves like a religion to boot. Congratulations retards.

>>19447632
I will take a look, thanks.

>>19447522

What do you mean by refute? What was considered supernatural a century ago isn't even considered preternatural today but point-of-fact. In ye olden times there were only a few words to describe the whole spectrum of color and a it lead historians to believe antique humans were colorblind. What sort of language, if I could provide it, would you feel accurately describe the fringes of what can be know?

>>19447635
You just mix together everything which is not material. Medieval theologians also believed in reason, something which new-agers ignore and there are also refutations of sorcery and other practices like that in the holy books (including non-abrahamic btw). I haven't read Guenon so idk what to say about him.

>>19447647
>”Le Rose was a Homosexual prostitute and drug addict. Therefore his opinion is invalid”

Cope harder. The blood of Christ heals and redeems all, even the filthiest of Men. Rose returned to our blessed Lord in the end, and his guidance is truly a blessing to the world

>posts a pic of Joel “muh prosperity gospel” Osteen

ROFL.

>muh Larp
Pic rel.

>>19447522
The phenomena are real, but in most cases, their interpretation is retarded (spiritism, occultism, new-age, etc). And you're right, when people stop practicing traditional (revealed) religions, they get more superstitious because they don't have a 'filter' that can put everything in its place. But besides all of that, magic has its function and application (the psychic world, with some interference on the corporeal), that's why magicians have existed everywhere. In the middle ages, everyone consulted astrologers, but they knew that astrology had its place and religion was superior. You may find some answers in 'The Spiritist Fallacy' and other works by René Guénon.

>>19447522
bump (no atheists please)

Cracks in the Great Wall (combines Rene Guenon and Jacques Vallee) but it may make you schizo

Fr. Seraphim Rose, of course

>>19447647
>Seraphim Rose, who >>19447632 brings up, was a drug using hippie and a homosexual prostitute.
Another prodigal son found the truth and returned to Christ. Blessed

>>19447665
You seem unhinged.

>>19447522

>being scared of "supernatural" experiences
Just see things for yourself and form your own ideas instead of looking for an authority figure to give you answers you can latch onto because you lack the initiative and confidence to confront direct experience

>>19447522
Probably the story of King Saul, the witch and Samuel.

>>19449564
>Just see things for yourself and form your own ideas instead of looking for an authority figure to give you answers you can latch onto because you lack the initiative and confidence to confront direct experience
I am interested in the impersonal truth, not in individual opinions. I am also not a relativist.

>>19450041
>the impersonal truth
Good luck with that.
You will never be able to be certain that you've found any kind of truth, the only thing you can ever rely on is your own experience.

>>19450052
>>19450041
Also
>not in individual opinions
Then why ask for author recommendations? Everyone that's been mentioned so far is just some dude giving his personal opinion on what truth is and what you're supposed to believe.

>>19447522
>i want to refute phenomena
Might as well start with the jeets.

>>19447522
i love DMT but i also love that image haha

also if youve never done psychs, dont talk about them.

>>19447578
cringe

imagine actually saying any of these things in 2021 lmao

>>19447522
I would say that your best bet would be to read books regarding reincarnation, the alien phenomena, pedophile rings ran by people within the government...all of that will eventually lead you to believe that our everyday life is more less influenced by non human entities.

From my understanding, there are humans that aren't truly human. Shapeshifters if you will.

>>19450083
I have DMT but I'm a bit spooked by it, not sure if I'm ready
What were your experiences like?

>>19450228
varied, depending on dose. i have a kid now so havent done it in a couple years. prior to that id do it a couple times a year, always alone by myself. treat it with respect, like a sacrament of sorts

few stories:

>first time i was nervous as absolute fuck, having heard about machine elves, ego death, bla bla. i hit a smallish dose through a glass vapor genie, laid back and felt relaxed. colors in the room hue-shifted and i felt a little light headed. laid back and closed my eyes. felt myself drifting down a river of a crystal palace-type place. everything was made of sparkling glass. an angelic woman/angel/being massaged my entire body while i drifted down the stream. after a few minutes i snapped out of it and came down

>another time i accidentally dosed more than i thought. basically resin from previous doses in my pipe had built up and combined with the normal-size dose i had loaded in. it was my first breakthrough experience and it was shocking. took the hits and everything around me started buzzing with electricity. everything i saw in my room basically exploded in electric patterns and the wall i was facing opened up into this realm of electric light. this weird monkey-god type being made of electricity greeted me and i was in this fucking weird realm of all these transforming beings dancing around me. everything happened so fucking fast and everything transformed constantly. one of the strangest experiences of my life.

>another time a being VERY similar to the jester in op's pic formed out of black and white floor tiles and scolded me. when i say very similar im not joking...add a body to that head and that's what i saw. it had a shrill voice and told me i had done too much dmt that day and it was shutting doors i would have otherwise been able to go in. in this weird checker realm it kept slamming doors saying "cant go in here!" "cant go in here!" in a shrieky voice. definitely a creepy trip.

ive done dmt probably 30ish times...not all trips were breakthroughs, some just relaxing. incredible experience each time. my descriptions probably sound pretty grounded but trust me when i say 99.9999999999999999% of each experience is absolutely fucking indescribable. i tend to come out of it just repeating WHAT THE FUCK over and over because its so fucking weird.

>>19450269
Interesting stuff. Never had a bad trip so far?
And how do you deal with the smoke's horrible taste

>>19450269
What are your religious beliefs?

>>19450292
you shouldnt be tasting any smoke....dmt should be vaporized, not burned. properly vaporized dmt just has a light, flowery aroma. quite pleasant

hard to have a bad trip when the trips move and evolve so fast. ive had scary moments (mostly terrifying images popping into vision as the trip progresses), but no trips that i feel were "bad" in retrospect

>>19450293
grew up evangenlical christian, no longer a believer. i would classify myself atheist, but not materialist

>>19450303
Do you think good and evil exist

>>19450303
>you shouldnt be tasting any smoke
I don't know man, I extracted it myself and it's quite pure but I tried vaporizing it in a crack pipe once and the taste was so fucking awful I couldn't even inhale

>>19450321
they exist in minds as ideas, not objectively as things out in the world though

>>19450339
So "one person's evil could be another's good" type thing?

>>19450335
yea crack pipe is not the right way. itll get too hot in the bulb and burn. thats why 'the machine' is always recommended for homemade methods, and a glass vapor genie for 'proper' way. for proper vaporization you dont want any direct transfer of heat from lighter-to-glass-to-dmt...the dmt should be vaporized purely with hot air moving over its surface.

in later years i moved to an atomizer which, imo, is the absolute best way. no fucking around with lighters and such, just load in the dmt, hit the button and inhale. tastes like warm, flowery air.

>>19450321
Evil is just suffering

>>19450343
that could be one way to put it

there's no "fact of the matter" about what is moral/immoral. its just preferences

>>19450346
I can't afford a vaporgenie so I'll try the sandwich method since apparently it works pretty well. If it doesn't work I'll try building the machine but it's tedious since I don't have a drill

>>19450357
sandwich is ok, not great but less of a chance of burning

>>19450355
Thank you for participating in my survey

>>19450369
lol based anon surveying druggos to prove they are all soulless

>>19450381
>t. no knowledge or life experience

>>19450389
"good and evil are just preferences" is straight up retarded, sorry anon. really sounds like something a 16 year old would say after getting high on weed for the first time.

>>19450396
well give me your best argument for the alternative. i dont dogmatically hold my view, it just seems the most reasonable given the world we see around us

>>19450381
I get high every week and like psychedelics but very much acknowledge the existence of evil unlike christians lol

>>19450419
what does evil mean to you ?

>>19450381
I don't think they're soulless. I just heard someone say once that people who do psychs end up thinking good and evil dont exist, and it's all relative, so since then I ask every person who does psychs if they think that. It does seem to be a fairly consistent pattern though not universal

>>19450440
neat but i thought they were relative long before trying any drug, including alcohol

>>19450424
A substance that corrodes good

>>19450450
It could be that they just attract people who think that as well. They definitely attract people who want like a "totally different way of looking at things"

>>19450440
It's just because the psychedelic experience tends to promote nondual ways of perceiving reality which inevitably comes with a rejection of good and evil

>>19450440
/lit/ should ask /sci/ before trying to do statistics.

Drug users have a huge self selection bias, you can't deduce that they "ended up" with some notion from their answers.

>>19449021

Who is the author?

>>19450457
yea i agree with that

people who believe in objective evil tend to have lots of weird beliefs...including things like "drugs are evil" and such

>>19450466
I note that here >>19450457

>>19450477
Yeah, I was too slow to post.

>>19450482
I think probably both those things are true. Some people really do change their minds about things from psychedelics

>>19450490
Sure, it's just that you can't tell when only asking them after the fact.

>>19450396
geez that must be one hell of a robust account for objective morality that youre typing up. beware the post character count limit!

>>19447578
>Miracles real and well attested. Even skeptical scientists cant come up with explanations for certain phenomena
kek

>>19447578
lol

>>19447664
>you're just demonstrating that once you reject materialism you open the door to all sorts of immaterial stuff and have to argue it away individually because otherwise you have to go back to materialism!
Yes. That is true.

>>19450626
Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism have very well attested bodies of miracles and evidence for them, anon.

>>19447522
Paranormality by Richard Wiseman is pretty good

>>19450469
That's not a weird belief if drugs make you stop believing in evil. In that case it is perfectly logical to think drugs are evil.

I did psychedelics and the druggies in here sound exactly like typical druggie retards. I got a lot out of it but man when most people talk about it they sound like such fucking childish idiots.

>>19451074
who are the druggy retards in here? all i see is a friendly discussion

maybe you should seethe a bit more?

>>19450626
lel is this the necro music video?

>>19447665
Based. You BTFO that guy.

>>19451074
>being high...bad!
All religions used drugs, cope.

75% of the replies are crap, made by retards who don't know shit about religion. Free-speech was a mistake, non-qualified people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions publicly.

>>19447578
absolute state of Millennials, what the fuck happened to you guys

>>19450396
one coin, two sides. git gud and stop embarrassing yourself with dualistic noobery.

>the ruling world elite confirmed to be deeply invested in occult magic
>how can we stop normal people from researching this, it interferes with my christlarp.
You really, REALLY need to kill yourself.

Just watch matrix dude, they explain it really well. Buddhist sutras or Zen masters are okay too.
Visions and enlightenment are fake. (Which basically means magic is real, as far as you believe in illusions anyway)

>>19447522
There is no such book because you can't refute what is objectively true. You may be able to dismantle shakey evidence/arguments, but you can't disprove the truth itself.
Psi is substantiated with more empirical evidence than the efficacy of most drugs you use.
Of course some normopath is going to screech at this, but it doesn't matter. They have made up their minds already. They don't care about evidence, no matter how much you show them. They just live to sustain their own hubris and arrogance.

>>19447559
>Marx and dialectical materialism refutes supernatural nonsense, religious phooey, magick, and other crap once and for all.

>>19447633
magic is human will, miracles can only be god's. that's why if you pray for something and it happens, you didn't perform magic because it was entirely up to god whether to do it or not. and if you're working hard to follow the word of god you'll have no need for magic because anything that went contrary to his will would be repulsive to you

>>19447559
>>19447578
Two sides of the same onions.

>>19452790
You're actually angry because you think you're better than these people but clearly have nowhere else to go

>>19447559
Marx doesn't refute the super natural at all
Neither does materialism.
Materialism just states that if the immaterial exists it doesn't effect the material world enough to influence analysis

>>19452977
>watch my jewlywood movie instead

>>19452884
A better question is why do YOU feel compelled to follow in the footsteps of the Satanic elite that wants nothing more than to perpetuate the endless suffering of the World?

>>19455855
A better question is why do YOU think that doing exactly what the Satanic elite that wants nothing more than to perpetuate the endless suffering of the World wants is at all beneficial? Evangelical Christianity was created by them to lead people astray, after all.

>>19447522
Good thread

>AAAAAA IM GONNNA REFUUUUUUUUUUUTE