/lit/ - Literature

>>19905584
>Christian
>atheist

Pick one

>>19905584
>LOTR on a pedestal
I don't blame them, I'm not pagan/christian but I read LOTR when I was a teen and I put it on a pedestal, its just so good.

I feel like LOTR has some pagan aspects to it in terms of the world of middle earth, also some christian stuff in terms of the general story of good and evil.

>>19905586
I don’t believe in God, but I have historical sympathies for Christianity since I love the Middle Ages.

>>19905584
its interesting to hear his interviews, which are on youtube, wherein he answers questions regarding the religion of his characters with absolutely no intelligability. he's notably eloquent, silly, and brief with his responses until pagan questions are raised. i think varg is right.
they arent christian books. people have just been giving tolkien the benefit of the doubt for generations.

>>19905584
I'm Asatru(Pagan) and I have never heard anyone mention LOTR at any blot. It's only Varg who talks about it.

>>19905595
As reference, which other books would you consider as good, if not better, than LOTR?

>>19905584
cringe

>>19905597
>they arent christian books
obviously not, I hate when christians or pagans claim it as their own, its just a fantasy world made by Tolkien, yes it has influences from christianity or paganism but it doesn't mean the work belongs to them or it needs to be categorized as christian/pagan.

>>19905600
varg and all his fans and everyone who listens to the fans but arent cringy enough to call themselves asatru or go to """"blots""""

Saying Tolkien was Christian is the same as saying Emma Watson is Christian.

>>19905595
>some pagan aspects to it in terms of the world of middle earth

A feudal world with mounted knights? The world isn’t even Anglo-Saxon, much less pagan (besides the elves and dwarves). It’s Frankish, which is funny since Tolkien hated the French and their cultural influence on England.

>>19905607
ESL

>>19905606
why do you think tolkien becomes purposely obscure when discussing the lack of pagan spirituality and ritual in-universe?

>>19905584
We can walk and chew gun at the same time. Your preference for gum is noted. Good day.

>>19905611
Yeah lets ignore the ents and all the pagan creatures and focus on the funny knights

>>19905607
>>19905597

I kind of disagree about that. Tolkien seems to have thought England’s chief glory was converting pagans in Europe

> Anglo-Saxon missionaries were instrumental in the spread of Christianity in the Frankish Empire during the 8th century, continuing the work of Hiberno-Scottish missionaries which had been spreading Celtic Christianity across the Frankish Empire. Anglo-Saxon missionary activities continued into the 770s and the reign of Charlemagne, the Anglo-Saxon Alcuin playing a major part in the Carolingian Renaissance. By 800, the Carolingian Empire was essentially Christianized. In the judgement of J. R. R. Tolkien the Anglo-Saxon mission was "…one of the chief glories of ancient England, and one of our chief services to Europe even regarding all our history…."[15]

>>19905613
sorry but its true.
loads of people think those books are pagan even if your retarded club "doesnt mention it."
>im ____ and
you're reddit and your responses belong there.

>>19905616
wow

>>19905615
I'm not saying he can't be pagan or interested in it but I'm talking about his books and the world he created (middle earth), it doesn't belong to political religious fanatics like christians of pagans, Tolkien is not a fanatic like them and if he was he would make it clear in his book.

>>19905617
I’m talking about the way the world is structured. It’s not like the one Tacitus describes about pagan Germanics or the way viking Scandinavia was like.
It’s more like medieval France.

>>19905618
thats a lot of exposition just to show a man providing a few brief words of social propriety.

>>19905626
he actually tries to make it clear in interviews that it's a christian book, but his efforts are superficial. he rightly doesnt think giving it a religious alignment is a political issue at all.

>>19905627
correct mindset, anon. dont let the shallow people troll you

>>19905627
I think you are focusing on one part of the world and ignoring the other, you ignore how the forest elves are structured and how other tribes in the world behave.

>>19905619
Okay drama queen

>>19905639
And the elves being this almost sexless beings who can never divorce. Where did he get that from? They seem more like Angels in behaviour and character.

Tolkien tries to make it clear in interviews that Orcs have BBC and elves are addicted to their big musky balls/

>>19905647
he probably got that idea from Blacked.com

>>19905584
Don’t like Tolkien. Clearly a paganoid burning in hell right now since he has done more than anyone to encourage idolatry. If your work can be liked by extreme anti-Christians then it’s not Christian to me.

I prefer Dante or Milton (no pagans likes them or cares for them) or just normal pagan works like the Iliad and the Odyssey that are genuine and don’t try to be something they are clearly not.

>>19905584
Idiot didn’t understand Christianity. The divide between good and evil in his book was too strict even by Christian standards. Do the Orcs have souls? Why are they portrayed as irremediably evil? No one is beyond redemption.

>>19905600
Do you guys believe in the gods or is it more of a preserving your heritage thing

>>19905595
The story is more like the zoroastrian creation story and dualism than Christian

>>19905611
Return of sacred king is pagan. Warrior aristocracy is pagan

>>19905618
Yes tolkien definitely approves of cutting down sacred trees excellent controbution

>>19905641
weak response honestly.
it is what it is. keep fuming about it.

>>19905584
>As a Christian atheist
Demonic

>>19905584
Do I even need to say that it's literally impossible to be a pagan today?
All you can do is being an edgy atheist (or pantheist without even understanding it's theological implications) and partake in LARPs. Reconstructionism is only a cope for retards.

>>19905597
There’s no doubt that Tolkien was personally a devout Christian from everything I’ve read about him. After all one feels more comfortable speaking publicly to people about something that isn’t very personal and paganism was apparently something not personal for him.

But actual faith is very personal and many devout Christians can be quite personal about their faith to those who they sense aren’t religious like them or know they won’t understand. For instance, I was just reading about the Victorian hero, Charles George Gordon, who was a fanatical Christian, but knew to tone down his fanatical Christianity among people who weren’t religious like him.

> Gordon lived alone. In his solitude, he ruminated upon the mysteries of the universe; and those religious tendencies, which had already shown themselves, now became a fixed and dominating factor in his life. His reading was confined almost entirely to the Bible; but the Bible he read and re-read with an untiring, unending assiduity. There, he was convinced, all truth was to be found; and he was equally convinced that he could find it. The doubts of philosophers, the investigations of commentators, the smiles of men of the world, the dogmas of Churches—such things meant nothing. Two facts alone were evident: there was the Bible, and there was himself; and all that remained to be done was for him to discover what were the Bible's instructions, and to act accordingly. In order to make this discovery it was only necessary for him to read the Bible over and over again; and therefore, for the rest of his life, he did so….Gordon’s tone was not the intimate and religious tone which he would have used with the Rev. Mr. Barnes or his sister Augusta; it was such as must have been habitual with him in his intercourse with old friends or fellow-officers, whose religious views were of a more ordinary caste than his own, but with whom he was on confidential terms.

And one has to remember that both Tolkien and Charles George Gordon were raised in the same Victorian environment so it was probably also just good manners. Either way, I still think Tolkien’s works are a confused mess. They fail to convey the Christian spirit and somehow also fail to convey the pagan spirit as depicted in the Iliad.

Personally I don't really understand why so many of them seem to identify themselves with mordor and sauron

>>19905682
Not enough incest in LOTR for that.

>>19905749
>There’s no doubt that Tolkien was personally a devout Christian
He was not serious about his Christianity at all. He wanted to have his cake and eat it to in regards to indulging in old Pagan myths and conceptions which his church had declared sorcery and stamped out. Christianity is proto-atheism and is a constant conundrum in that it needs to suffocate whatever competing beliefs it encounter, while also vampirically leeching of the same beliefs in order to hide the fact that it is a spiritually sterile and desolate religion in itself.

>>19905785
https://medium.com/belover/no-tolkiens-the-lord-of-the-rings-isn-t-christian-a7d3b34b7677
This

>>19905792
>A book's own author is incapable of describing his work, but a literal hack for a agitprop journal is

>>19905785
>He wanted to have his cake and eat it to in regards to indulging in old Pagan myths and conceptions which his church had declared sorcery and stamped out.
That's an extremely idiosyncratic and anachronistic take.
If, for example, Pagans or Buddhists can enjoy LOTR (or an oriental author can even adapt a Christian Dostoyevsky story in a Buddhist lens), it's hardly strange that a Catholic can adapt other such myths. Moreover, many of the actual myths are post-Christianity. Beowulf, Percival, etc.

>>19905785
> He was not serious about his Christianity at all… Christianity is proto-atheism and is a constant conundrum in that it needs to suffocate whatever competing beliefs it encounter, while also vampirically leeching of the same beliefs in order to hide the fact that it is a spiritually sterile and desolate religion in itself.

I don’t believe that after reading lots of history. Christians have always been more fanatical and serious about their religion because it wasn’t ‘sterile.’ What pagan ever behaved like Charles George Gordon in regards to religion?

There’s a reason Pliny the Younger called Christianity an excessive superstition. The way Christians took their religion seriously was odd. Pagans were expected to sacrifice once every month or something to earn the gods favour, but they weren’t expected to think more about it like the way Charles George Gordon did as an example or the way Tolkien always brought up Christianity among his close friends to talk about.

Just take a look at pagan Japan. Would you really call it a religious society? That’s how pagan society (with no Abrahamic influence) is naturally like. No more spiritual and no less atheist.

>>19905834
Imperial Rome was relatively "secularized" at that time. Previous centuries were different in religious attitudes.

>>19905666
>The divide between good and evil in his book was too strict even by Christian standards.
You neither. Take Schelling's perspective on god into account, for example (pic related)

>Do the Orcs have souls? Why are they portrayed as irremediably evil?
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/1515/1/Nagy_Gergely_disszertacio.pdf
Because the book is an imitation of a medieval manuscript. Ever read any myths?

"mythology seems to function not ‘textually’, myths not being texts but rather (in narratological terms) stories generating innumerable plots, stories that the given culture uses in a specific way (among others, in making them into texts). “We access Greek mythology above all through text,” as Dowden writes, adding: “[b]ut texts were not the only medium for mythology.” Clunies Ross even uses the term “mythological system” to describe myths’ function “as both cognitive and communicative systems.” This network (and the collection of all textual versions of mythic stories) is termed ‘mythology’ – but, as Tolkien would have pointed out, the word etymologically refers to the telling (Gr. legein) of myths. In Classical Greece or early medieval Scandinavia, myths had as many tellings, versions, local variants, as tellers and communities: “Greek religion as a monolithic entity never existed,”"

"Tolkien rightly saw that this was impossible to solve ‘authorially’: finally he decided to make use of the discrepancy as an integral part of the story itself. He transformed the two versions into philological variants, not only in the real world but also in the textual world. “The story as a whole must take into account the existence of two versions and use it”, he wrote in a letter to Stanley Unwin, his publisher. The first edition’s version became the story Bilbo told everyone and “set down in his memoirs”, while the second version was the true account known only to a few people (but as “many copies [of the Red Book, the fictional source of The Lord of the Rings] contain the true account… derived no doubt from notes by Frodo and Samwise”, the second edition of The Hobbit is also explained). “Not what he told the dwarves and put in his book… He told me the true story”, answers Frodo when Gandalf wonders which version he knows. Tolkien thus consciously highlighted (again) the metatextuality of his work, and even exploited it congenially to a dramatic effect. Rewriting, the oscillations of the text (and therefore of meaning) are thus not alien from the fixed texts either;"

Tolkien was a devout Catholic and also was the reason C.S. Lewis converted to Christianity. All the pagans and atheists ITT must understand this fact. Luckily for them Amazon will do a great job of tearing every aspect of Christianity from LOTR so they can consume it with their moral superiority in tact.

>>19905711
Why can't you sincerely believe in the gods?

>>19905842
Seriously find a pagan as crazily religious and spiritual as Charles George Gordon in pagan German, Greek or Roman history

> The faith that he evolved was mystical and fatalistic; it was also highly unconventional. His creed, based upon the narrow foundations of Jewish Scripture, eked out occasionally by some English evangelical manual, was yet wide enough to ignore every doctrinal difference, and even, at moments, to transcend the bounds of Christianity itself. The just man was he who submitted to the Will of God, and the Will of God, inscrutable and absolute, could be served aright only by those who turned away from earthly desires and temporal temptations, to rest themselves whole-heartedly upon the in-dwelling Spirit. Human beings were the transitory embodiments of souls who had existed through an infinite past, and would continue to exist through an infinite future. The world was vanity; the flesh was dust and ashes… [But] Whatever he might find in his pocket-Bible, it was not for such as he to dream out his days in devout obscurity. But, conveniently enough, he found nothing in his pocket-Bible indicating that he should. What he did find was that the Will of God was inscrutable and absolute; that it was man's duty to follow where God's hand led; and, if God's hand led towards violent excitements and extraordinary vicissitudes, that it was not only futile, it was impious to turn another way.

Maybe pagan India can be the only one that can furnish such examples, but a pagan behaving like George Gordon (thinking about the Gods and their will all the time) would have been seen as odd. It was enough to sacrifice to the Gods (just the Japanese burn incense), but doing more like George Charles George would have been seen as excessive superstition by the Romans and Greeks.

>>19905584
>Christian atheist
>more superior
>prefer it over the LOTR

Yep. It's real retard hours.

>>19905596
So then call yourself a middle ages enthusiast, not a christcuck.

>>19905906
Because you are so far removed from the context in which those believes actually took place in every posssible way that it's simply absurd to try and believe. A religion is not something you can pick up as if you were strolling in a supermarket, even if US protestants like to act that way. A religion is an organic part of your life, it's in direct contact with every aspect of your life, it gives meaning to everything that's around you and even to yourself.
There is simply no living culture that lives around that religion. There is no true emotion or feelings around them, it's just a contestatarian attitude towards Christianity or the apathetic agnosticism that is so widespread today.
You are just building the most essential part of your life as a rejection of other thing, in that way you will always be subservient ot Christianity, either in it's favour or against it. This is what makes Varg so pathetic, he wants to desperately reject the only spirituality that is truly European in today's world and in trying to do so he can only get into a barren spiritual state.
You can't simply force yourself to believe. Read Saint Manuel Bueno, martyr by Unamuno. You are either blesssed with the grace of faith or you have to try and find meaning without it, and you simply cannot have honest faith in the Pagan gods (and all of you know that).

>>19905937
But the Middle Ages I love wouldn’t be the Middle Ages that I love if not for Christianity. After all, viking Scandinavia doesn’t interest me in the same way. And just as classical Greece wouldn’t be classical Greece without their paganism.

>>19905611
>It’s Frankish
You sure? Seemed more welsh/Anglo Saxon from the names.

>>19905586
no. and you can’t make me.

>>19905785
>Christianity is proto-atheism and is a constant conundrum in that it needs to suffocate whatever competing beliefs it encounter, while also vampirically leeching of the same beliefs in order to hide the fact that it is a spiritually sterile and desolate religion in itself.
Oh yeah I remember Christianity appropriating human sacrifices from the aztecs so it could stop being sterile.
>>19905834
This is a good post. Christianity was excessive to paganism and I've never really realized it. Partly because we are all looking at paganism from the christian world by virtue of being born when we are. Japan is definitely not a religious country. They do a little thing here and there and then religion is out of sight.

>>19905993
This post really does reveal the crypto-atheistic nature of the Christian. At the end of the day he does not believe in divine beings outside of a shared social context. To the Christian, god lives in scripture and social congregations, and if those cease to exist - so does the god.

>>19906024
pagancuck atheists are this stupid?

>>19905993
This is such a desperate cope it hurts to read. You must truly think your shit smells sweet.

>>19905584
Anon, Im honestly perplexed how youve come to make a claim about yourself as such
>Christian
>Atheist
whats the thought process here. how have you constucted your persona surrounding these two worldviews. I guess to say that you have not confessed that Christ is Lord? What is truth to you?

>>19906190
I'm sorry pal, you will never be a viking, it doesn't matter how many videogames you play.

>>19905584
>atheist
>just likes the aesthetics of Christendom
catholophile?

>>19905711
your religion is dead, and it's a LARP

>>19905711
You can say the same thing about Christianity.

>>19905584
>As a Christian atheist

>>19905711
Based and choppilled but the same is becoming true for Christianity as demonstrated by most Christians on this site

>>19905785
>catholic writer practices the catholic practice of syncretism
>this means that he wasn’t a christian at all in writing
You could argue that syncretism is philosophically unsound (which it is because it’s literally sophistry used to coerce existing cultures into what was to them a foreign Semitic faith) but you cannot argue it isn’t christian when it’s always been a part of the religion.

>>19905857
>When they have introduced American sanitation...
Is he whining about Indians getting toilets?

>>19905584
There were a bunch of atheist professors at that time, especially in STEM and the Humanities, so pretty much no one would have gave a shit even if he was a LARPagan.

>>19905584
Tolkien was a very zealous Christian even for his time.

>>19905656
The Divine Comedy is unironically less Christian in its intent than LOTR

>The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories. They contain many marvels—peculiarly artistic, beautiful, and moving: ‘mythical’ in their perfect, self-contained significance; and among the marvels is the greatest and most complete conceivable eucatastrophe. But this story has entered History and the primary world; the desire and aspiration of sub-creation has been raised to the fulfillment of Creation. The Birth of Christ is the eucatastrophe of Man’s history. The Resurrection is the eucatastrophe of the story of the Incarnation. This story begins and ends in joy. It has pre-eminently the ‘inner consistency of reality’. There is no tale ever told that men would rather find was true, and none which so many sceptical men have accepted as true on its own merits. For the Art of it has the supremely convincing tone of Primary Art, that is, of Creation. To reject it leads either to sadness or to wrath.
> J.R.R. Tolkien

>>19905711
implying modern trad Catholicism/Orthodoxy isn't larp

>>19906852
gigacope

>>19906562
>nooo you can't try to understand god in greater detail that's un-christian!!!
meanwhile
>tolkien steals all his aesthetics from pagan literature

>>19905584
gay ass LARPagans

>>19905857
>Tolkien was a devout Catholic and also was the reason C.S. Lewis converted to Christianity.
Though he was very disappointed that Lewis chose the Anglican Church.

>>19905993
What are your thoughts on missionaries?

>>19906887
It isn't. It's an actual continuous tradition.

>>19905584
>he had to be
If he was only doing it to keep up appeareances, then he would have been a liberal anglican like everyone else at Oxford instead of becoming a Catholic (for which he faced prejudice in life).
>>19905597
Tolkien in his private letters called LOTR "fundamentally Catholic". He freely made use of pagan lore, but the themes are fundamentally Biblical and owe as much to sacramental theology as they do to anything else.

>>19905775
Stupid meme.

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>>>/pol/

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>>>/nigger/

>>19905993
modern paganism is effectively a fandom.

>>19905597
It's a syncretic work.
Eru is the God of the new testament, Valar are you run off the mill indo european pantheon and Maiar are angels.

>>19906503
Most self proclaimed "christians" on this site are LARPers/retards. I wouldn't put much stock in what they have to say

>>19905584
>As a Christian atheist,
Stopped reading right there Redditron.

>>19905785
>suffocate whatever competing beliefs it encounter, while also vampirically leeching of the same beliefs in order to hide the fact that it is a spiritually sterile and desolate religion in itself

If north European pagan literature is so superior by itself than why aren’t the Icelandic Norse sagas like Völsunga saga more popular instead? They usually avoid inserting Christian themes and cosmology more than any other. Yet they aren’t superior to what Tolkien created with his greater insertion of Christian themes and cosmology. So no it’s the opposite. Christianity makes Northern European mythology less spiritually dull when its themes are inserted.

>>19906219
I’ve already said that I simply like Christian history, especially during the Middle Ages. Some of my favourite historical figures have been devout Christians. However, I do not believe Christianity is true. Maybe I’m a little bit of deist. I certainly prefer monotheism over paganism.

>>19905584
>the mentally ill shit tier musician is a larper
no surprises.

>>19907055
>tolkien steals all his aesthetics from pagan literature

I really don’t see this. The aesthetic seems to be firmly medieval Christendom with its castles, knights and chivalry. Not pagan viking or whatever.

>>19909973
that might be true, but literally all of the mythology and lore is straight from norse mythology

>>19905600
My Pfizer SuperVax™ chip is signalling my brain to express extreme anger at this many white people grouped together without BIPOC representation. My Pfizer SuperVax™ chip is also telling me to remind everyone in this thread that diversity IS our strength.

I hate these people so much
it's a fucking book, a work of fiction
and people out there putting so much fucking cultural importance on it to the point as to equate it to

you know what, I don't care
americans=fucked

>>19905584
>Look at how popular the Lord of the Rings is and the film version of it, which is full of a kind of degenerate version of the Wagnerian approach to things. But Wagner is the real artist, and Tolkien a kind of second-rate populariser and yet Tolkien is happily accepted by the mass of mankind today.

>>19905584
Consider the difference in accessibility between something like the Iliad and the LotR. I think in this alone lies our answer.

>>19910328
cry more

>>19905907
have you ever considered that different religions deal with spirituality in different ways and have different notions of what is a spiritual practice ?

>>19906219
means that he is a larper and know it

>>19905586
No.

>>19905857
Ethnic purity is not a goal of Christianity. It replaces ancestor worship

So much low effort Tolkien bait threads being spawned these last few days thanks to Amazons bullshit.

>>19905584
Tolkien was very Christian, but was an avid historian and religious scholar and was English before he was anything else; he's the kind of man who would attend a solstice celebration performed at the site of a druidic rite without a Christian thought in his head and then write off his attendance as "heathen but harmless" and continue attending church and then admiring the green men carved into the pews as historical works of art while simultaneously being completely aware of their pagan origins and not caring.

>>19911045
>he's the kind of man who would attend a solstice celebration performed at the site of a druidic rite without a Christian thought in his head and then write off his attendance as "heathen but harmless" and continue attending church and then admiring the green men carved into the pews as historical works of art while simultaneously being completely aware of their pagan origins and not caring.
I like how half of this thread is people just making up headcannon about Tolkien and protending it's biographical.

>>19911045
>he's the kind of man who would attend a solstice celebration performed at the site of a druidic rite without a Christian thought in his head and then write off his attendance as "heathen but harmless" and continue attending church and then admiring the green men carved into the pews as historical works of art while simultaneously being completely aware of their pagan origins and not caring.
I like how half of this thread is people just making up headcannon about Tolkien and pretending it's biographical. He viewd paganism as essentially confused and wrong.

>>19905584
why the picture of odin?

Tolkien's work is suffused with Christianity, and you can tell because he believes very sincerely in some of the core ideas of what Christianity teaches, and his writing is filled with them, and they especially come out in The Lord of the Rings.

Chiefest among them is the idea of mercy. Sparing your enemies and being kind to them even when you have no reason to do so. This plays out in the story of Gollum. Both Bilbo and Frodo spare his life when it would probably have been wiser to kill him. Why? Because they pity him. Because they choose to be kind to him and have mercy on him. And yet this leads to the destruction of the Ring. The mercy of Bilbo and Frodo leads to the completion of the quest, when their own virtue would have failed. Pagan virtue, heroic virtue, fails in the end. But Christian mercy wins the day, in ways unlooked for.

The Hobbits themselves are very Christian, because they are small and meek, and kind and simple. They are not "the great," as Elrond makes note of in the Council of Elrond. They are not the wise. And yet without the small goodness of the Hobbits the War of the Ring would not have been won. It is the Hobbits that lead to the Ring's destruction. It is the Hobbits that rouse the Ents and lead to the destruction of Isengard. It is the Hobbits that save Faramir from burning and so preserve the rule of Gondor. It is the Hobbits that are responsible for the destruction of the Witch-King, at least in part. The forces of good don't win the War of the Ring without the Hobbits, without the meek, small, lowly Hobbits, with their gardens and their pubs and their simple life. That's extremely Christian, the idea that someone small and meek can make such a big difference.

The Lord of the Rings is not an explicitly Christian story, but it's the sort of story only a Christian could write.

>>19911149
This is the only accurate analysis of LoTR in this site. LARPagans on suicide watch.

>>19911149
>The Hobbits themselves are very Christian, because they are small and meek, and kind and simple
Nice to see Christians making it very plain and obvious that their religion is degenerate slave morality.

>>19905584
>He had to be

Crowley existed before Tolkien

>>19911214
>degenerate slave morality
You grossly misunderstand the relationship between God and his faithful servants. Some larpagan will have trouble even if I explain it to you in easy to understand detail

>>19911278
God’s servants should have massive bulging muscles, not be weak weirdos

>>19911295
Nah dude, the true knight of Christ should be a little manlet with hairy feet.

>>19905584
Varg is retard degenerate

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>>19911391
Holy shit, that is some top level WE WUZ. These people are so pathetic it honestly baffles me.

>>19911404
Varg also wrote a book in norwegian in wich he talks about his beliefs and its fucking insane. He thinks that the fucking ENTS (giant tree-people) from LOtR are REAL. This man is autist supreme

>>19911214
Hobbits aren't displayed as slaves though. Being meek and kind isn't slave ideology. They're merciful and meek yet also brave which is clear by the end.

>>19911128
The way people read a book that they like, and from that decide that the author is practically their best friend and in total agreement with their views is very strange.

>>19905785
>He wanted to have his cake and eat it to in regards to indulging in old Pagan myths and conceptions which his church had declared sorcery and stamped out
By your logic, was Dante Alighieri also a pagan? Is it anywhere mentioned you cannot incorporate FUNCTIONING pagan believes into your understanding of the world? Post-Protestant "culture" needs to be exterminated

>>19905907
We have this impression because of post-"Reformation" era. Catholic and Ordodox culture was (and still is in Eastern Europe) like this. Only saints and monks are associated with zealousness - it is their calling, after all. When I read through the Hagakure and the Life of St. Philip Neri - both recording the same era on different continents - it is interesting to see how similar the religious attitude was. This high sensationalism/emotionalism is only a product of Protestant "culture" as substitute for pretending Divine Tradition and human nature don't exist. They (Catholics and Ordodox) see faith (fide) as loyalty first, doing penance and sacrifice are the primary focus, while for Prots faith sets the primary focus on belief.

>>19905656
i enjoyed the bible and consider myself extremely anti-christian
what is your opinion on this oh wise sage

>>19910263
so this is the famous /lit/ sense of humour

What aspect of LorR is Christian exactly? I guess the good vs. evil plotline but for the most part everything seems pretty influenced by Nordic paganism. They don't really talk about religion in the main series at all, that's all in the bonus material.

i think LotR is influenced by Christianity, but it's way more nuanced than i think is commonly accepted. Simply slapping a "Christian" sticker on the trilogy doesn't really say much, because Christianity isn't a one-size fits all religion (no religion is, really).

Is it a catholic christianity? a protestant christianity? a gnostic christianity? etc.

Personally, i see far more christian gnostic themes in the books. Melkor created matter (hroa), Arda is his kingdom. To get to Valinor, you can't have any melkor-matter within you, one must become pure spirit (fea).

I find that Tolkien is extremely anti-catholic, but to understand why requires one to know a lot about ancient Sumerian/Babylonian culture, as well as to have read the History of Middle Earth (HoME) material.
In HoME, Tolkien mentions that the Haradrim refer to Sauron in their language as "Zigur" (or "Wizard"). Which is a clear reference to "ziggurat", the temple-pyramids of ancient Babylonia. We learn elsewhere that Sauron even built pyramid-like temples where human sacrifice to Melkor was performed.

This is all important, because when you study ancient Babylonian religion, you realize that Catholicism is the inheritor of the ancient Babylonian religion, basically the same religion with a new coat of paint.

So it's not that Tolkien is anti-Christian, it's that he's anti-Catholic, and leans more towards gnosticism (who, incidentally, murdered gnostics in droves).

>>19912224
>catholics murdered gnostics in droves**
worded that oddly, so posting this to clarify

>>19905584

The LOTR only makes sense in a Catholic context. The text is rife with meaning in that regard. People like this who are only interested in the aesthetics of pagan religion would also only be interested in the LOTR in a shallow context.

>>19912224
Tolkien was extremely pro-Catholic, you schizo.

>Christoids ban ancestor worship, magic, sacred sites and entities, "forces", prophecy, etc. as being demonic or idolatrous as they are all supernatural principles that have origins outside of their god
>Their god gets killed by Protestants and to a far lesser degree Marxists
Welp now we have nothing. We can pursue our rational economic interests more efficiently though. Thanks guys.

>>19912378
>Their god gets killed
t. delusional

>>19912284
hmm... maybe, i definitely don't see any evidence of it in any of the books.
if Tolkien had written this during the Inquisition time, he prolly would have been burned at the stake for heresy.

Tree spirits, gods of air and wind, gods of the ocean, the mountains, even gods of underworld and of sleep... this is pagan material in the extreme. There's no reference in the Bible to Elves, Dwarves, etc, but they abound in pagan literature.

Orcs and Catholics have much in common, they both chopped down all the sacred groves of the pagans.

>>19911439
>Hobbits aren't displayed as slaves though
It doesn’t matter if they’re literal slaves or not.
>though. Being meek and kind isn't slave ideology
In slave morality, weakness, kindness, mercy, meekness, those are good qualities.

>>19912108
Eru Illuvatar is literally the Biblical God

>>19912444
Melkor also professed to be "the only God". The Orcs literally worshipped Melkor, and performed sacrifices to him (blood sacrifices)

now who else does a real (or even a mock) blood sacrifice that we know of?

If you're familiar at all with gnosticism, then you'd know that they believed that the Old Testament "God" is the Demiurge, the creator of the physical world, and that he's evil.
>but the Catholics murdered the gnostics, so that makes the gnostics the bad guys, so i won't listen to them.

>>19912467
So Orcs are Jews and Melkor is the Demiurge?

>>19912478
Melkor is definitely the Demiurge, yes. I'd say orcs are anyone that practices blood sacrifice rituals in any form.
Tolkien was very clear in his writings that he's against blood sacrifice, whether of animals or humans.

>>19912467
>>19912478

>>19912534
>Christian gnosticism isn't true gnosticism
>because i said so.
>God approves of the killing of Christian gnostics, it's what Jesus would have done
it's funny how upsetting this is to you, that people don't buy into your Catholic (i.e. Jewish) brand of "Christianity".

besides, Catholicism has very little to do with anything Jesus said or did.

>>19912561
Heretic

>>19912567
>t. has never heard of Martin Luther

>>19912573
Another heretic

>>19911388
Atheist pagans are cringe

>>19912578
>Jesus wants us to murder anyone that doesn't accept the Pope as the spokesman of Jesus

>>19912583
Luther is burning in hell and so are the gnostics.

>>19912591
>Jesus only talks to the Pope. And anyone that says otherwise should be murdered, just as Jesus would want it.

>>19912591
this dude right here sounds like a worshiper of Melkor

>>19912467
Uhh have you considered that "Melkor" might be inspired Moloch, Canaanite deity highly associated with human sacrifice, evil, and a competetor with the God of Abraham?

>>19912633
sure i have.

I'm trying to collate lots of different ideas that Tolkien interspersed throughout his works.
Simply basing an interpretation off of one factor (e.g. human sacrifice) would generate one outcome, that of Melkor = Moloch, or something similar.
But when you factor in other ideas of Tolkien's, like his idea that physical matter (or as Tolkien called it, hroa) was created by Melkor, and that physical matter is evil, hence why only pure spirits can enter Valinor, then the interpretation begins to take on a heavy gnostic theme.

Then factor in Ainur who resemble many of the pagan deities of old (Zeus = Manwe, Hades = Mandos, etc.) and it's clear that Tolkien was not just making a 1:1 rewrite of the Bible. This isn't to say that Tolkien wasn't a Christian, but it's obvious he wasn't a "typical Christian" with "typical" beliefs, his beliefs were far more nuanced, and given that he was extremely educated and studied ancient cultures (to include their myths and beliefs) it's no wonder he doesn't ascribe to a 100% Catholic view.

And these views of his would have gotten him burned at the stake of Melkorish Catholics or Jews had their way.

Tolkien was *extremely* clear that any blood sacrifice whatsoever is to be associated with Melkor. It was Melkor who began that practice, and ALL blood sacrifice are sacrifices done to him.
Even the fact that Elves reincarnate proves definitely that Tolkien was not adhering to "official" Catholic doctrine (Catholics murdered anyone that believed in reincarnation, by labeling it heresy).

This entire argument hinges on whether being a Christian can be something personal and individual, or whether only the Pope/High Priest gets to decide everything. The Melkor-types that are fond of labeling everyone a heretic and then murdering them would take the latter viewpoint.

>>19912467
Melkor is Tolkien’s equivalent of Satan, in keeping with the Christian misconception that Satan is some angel who rebelled against God due to an odd translation in Isaiah. He was created from part of Eru’s mind, just like the other Valar, but was the most powerful of them and coveted more power and to exert his own will over others and the world, unlike the others who were just Eru’s bootlickers. Sounds based desu

>>19912676
People used to sacrifice animals to God and burned someone alive for him at least once.
Melkor did not create physical matter. Eru and all the Valar and the Maiar singing created the physical world, Eä, and Melkor’s influence in the song caused it to turn out tougher than supposedly intended, marred by “extreme heat and cold”.

>>19912676
>>19912702
Also, Valinor is material; just hard to reach. Only the Timeless Halls where Eru Illuvatar lives, are “immaterial”, and maybe the void.

>>19912702
>Melkor did not create physical matter
but he did infuse his essence into physical matter, thereby forever corrupting it towards evil. That's in "Morgoth's Ring", part of History of Middle Earth.

Which eventually led to the removal of Valinor to a spirit realm, where only spirits could enter (this isn't a personal interpretation of mine, Tolkien literally wrote this in clear terms in HoME).

People really need to start reading Tolkien's History of Middle Earth (the posthumously published writings of Tolkien). I'm detecting a clear bias towards Silmarillion as "canon", when that was more Christopher's attempt at getting his father's work published, and not even Tolkien himself who edited it or got it published.

>>19912715
>Valinor is material
not anymore it isn't, it was removed to spirit-realm after the destruction of Numenor.

for the love of god people, read History of Middle Earth. I feel like i'm talking to people that only have played the video games or watched the Amazon butchering.

>>19912718
>Which eventually led to the removal of Valinor to a spirit realm, where only spirits could enter
You literally sail there in a boat. It’s a physical place you can touch and smell. The Timeless Halls are immaterial, not Valinor.

>>19912730
>you literally sail there in a boat
>what is metaphor?

i'm gonna pretend to be as literal as you are., Here i go:
>The Timeless Halls aren't immaterial, they're material, because "Halls" are material things, therefore the Timeless Halls must be material too.
See how that works?

Tolkien literally wrote in HoME that Valinor was removed to a spirit realm, and that magic was used to prevent any hroa (physical matter) from entering in order to prevent Melkor from entering and wreaking havoc.

Read the HoME, you're really missing out, and it's difficult to have a discussion with someone that has only played the video games.

>>19912692
>Misconceprion
Shut up, gnostic faggot.

>>19912534
Actually me lol

>>19912692
Melkor is the god of strife but ultimately part of The Plan which is extremely close to what Christians conceive of Satan's role as
Here's Eru speaking to Melkor after the discord
>And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me...For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined
On hearing Ulmo and Manwe's complaints against Melkor
>Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of the fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
Eru created Melkor as an obstacle for the other gods to overcome because he thinks there's something ennobling in the principle of struggle, also a classical Christian response to
>why doesn't god just make us all happy

>>19912378
>Christians ban shrines and prophecy
Are pagans really this retarded?

>>19912777
Gnostics are just d&d jews

>>19912776
The only reason people think Satan/Lucifer is a fallen angel is because someone translating the Bible into Greek used the word “Lucifer” to describe the planet Venus in its form as the morning star. Lucifer is a Greek god, son of Aurora the Dawn goddess, because the morning star appears shortly before the dawn. Modern Bible translations do not use the word “Lucifer” in Isaiah, and just say the planet Venus or the morning star. The context is that someone is taunting the king of Babylon and compares him to the morning star/Venus/Lucifer.

“ “14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!”

“14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”

Apparently some dude read this and thought it had something to do with Satan. Fuck knows why honestly

>>19912781
I like that. It’d a fucking boring story and lifestyle if it was just “Eru and the Valar made a perfect world and everyone lived in it happily ever after. The end.”
Nobody would read that

>Author leaves extensive notes explaing his themes and choices
>"ACKSHULLY HERE'S WHAT HE REALLY MEANT!"
I fucking hate you people.

>>19912756
Metaphor? Where’s your proof the White Ships aren’t “real” in the story?
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Straight_Road
Do the Elves teleport there from the Grey Havens? Why would they go to the Havens if they don’t actually have to sail there?

>>19905584
>As a Christian atheist
what? wait what? No, no, stop right there. Don't glide past this point. What the heck does this mean? A "Christian Atheist"? I know this is a great wait to bait in readers, but come on

>>19905586

>>19912818
It's not just Isaiah, early Christians conflated all of the badguys in the Torah as a singular figure. The Pharaoh from Genesis, the Persian Emperors before/after Cyrus, Helel (his name means "morning star", which was called the lux ferans, shortened to lucifer, in Latin).

>>19912633
The "moloch" mentioned in the Torah IS Yahweh, anon. The Torah is pretty clear on this. It's a series of redactions and edits at various stages of Jewish history to try and come to grips with being in the double bind of having to make changes to continue existing while also justifying political rule based on rigid adherence to a legal code established from on high. Remember, the Jews were doing human sacrifice of gentiles up until the Greeks stopped them from doing so (abhorrence of human sacrifice is an Indo-European belief that comes from the IE taboo against cannibalism). Same with Baal and El. They all just mean "lord" or "master".

By the Torah's own admission the Jews "falling for Moloch's tricks" was actually just Yahweh afflicting them with a clever ruse for shits and giggles.

>>19912879
Another thing people forget is that Exodus outright says the Egyptian gods are real, and Egyptian priests have supernatural powers comparable to those granted to Moses by God. Henotheism seems to have been the norm in the Bronze Age.

>>19912838
where's your proof that the Timeless Halls aren't physical, actual halls?
>it's in the name!!

>why would they go to the Havens if they don't actually have to sail from there?
>why didn't Frodo just ride an eagle all the way to Mt. Doom?!
just admit you haven't read the History of Middle Earth, lol.


Have fun watching the Amazon remake, it's right up your alley

>>19912818
I'm getting so fed up with you fucking halfwits. Satan as a fallen angel does not hinge on Isaiah 14:12
https://www.catholic365.com/article/2058/the-catholic-teachings-on-the-angels-part-2-the-fall-of-satan.html

>>19912895
No it doesn't, you stupid cunt. False miracles could just as easily be the word of demons tham men call gods.

>>19912906
>false miracles
lmfao

>>19912788
>>19905711
See picrel, sacred sites not shrines. Prophecy only seems acceptable to Christians insofar as it is used to confirm something from the bible. Something like
>the return of the king (aragorn not jesus)
would be seen as witchcraft since something like The Blood of Numenor would be purported as having an independent spiritual reality from god which means it is demonic. Christians hate the idea that there is any spiritual "power" in immanent reality that isn't just a leftover of some act that they can explicitly tie to god. That's why something like the idea of a sacred tree in some forest in east bumfuck is so rage inducing to Christians

>>19912879
>early Christians conflated all of the badguys in the Torah as a singular figure
Or maybe they just made a parallel with the actrual fall for didactic puropses like the Biblical writers did?
>The "moloch" mentioned in the Torah IS Yahweh, anon. Remember, the Jews were doing human sacrifice of gentiles up until the Greeks stopped them from doing so
Nice headcanon.

>>19912911
Read St. Robert Bellarmine on counterfeit miracles and shut the fuck up.

>>19912906
“For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.”

Gods. The hebrew word used is Elohim, which just means gods.

>>19912915
>the bible is wrong!
I mean, yeah, I agree, you have huge stretches of time that are just filled in with demonstrable fictions, the First Temple didn't exist, Solomon is entirely fictitious, etc, but I don't see why you'd make that argument.

>>19911149
good post

>>19912534
>>19912777
https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=read&author=pinay&book=plot2&story=gnostics

>>19912879
>By the Torah's own admission the Jews "falling for Moloch's tricks" was actually just Yahweh afflicting them with a clever ruse for shits and giggles
Kinda random but does the Torah actually conceive of entities like Moloch as real Gods/demons, or are you saying that Moloch was actually just a tricky side of Yahweh who is the only real entity?

>>19912920
Read Michael Heiser. Lesser, created spiritual beings were called "gods" by men.

>>19912879
>Remember, the Jews were doing human sacrifice of gentiles up until the Greeks stopped them from doing so
Ohhh so you're schizophrenic, I see

>>19912937
They still exist, then, and are referred to as being “gods” by the author of Exodus.

>>19912913
They chopped most if not all of the “real” sacred trees down. Kinda gross.

>>19912921
You fucking midwits can't help yourselves, can you? That wasn't my argument. I was saying that that the Bible writers were denouncing rulers by relating them to Satan. But I guess you can't understand writing on multiple levels.
>you have huge stretches of time that are just filled in with demonstrable fictions, the First Temple didn't exist, Solomon is entirely fictitious, etc,
Shut up, faggot.
http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/science-biblical-kings-david-solomon-02371.html

>>19912946
>WHat is irony.

>>19912964
Denouncing rulers by relating them to a Greek god, part of a polytheistic pagan religion without connection to Hebrew cosmology. Yeah that makes sense.

>>19912935
No, what I'm saying is that it works like this
>Jews are doing X.
>some kind of catastrophe occurs
>they need to make a change
>but they can't just change because the Torah says to do X
>so they amend the historical record such that the Torah says Y
>why were they doing X? they were hoodwinked by demons!
"Moloch" is just Yahweh, but we're going to pretend it wasn't Yahweh so that we can do something else. It's not a "side" of Yahweh, because after the editing is done it's ACKTHYUALLY a different deity.

Ezekiel is a good example of this, wherein the Rabbis are wrestling with the problem of human sacrifice. tl;dr the Jews are supposed to sacrifice their own children to Yahweh IN ADDITION TO the children of gentiles. However, this is obviously bad, because every Jewish kid sacrificed is a Jew that isn't Jewing. The way that they get around it is by realizing that, ah, yes, Yahweh DOESN'T want us to do that because we're the Chosen People (and as the Chosen People Jews are actually thus ontologically related to Yahweh, Judaism, and the Torah, so it's actually an INSULT to sacrifice Jewish children!). Really, it was devilish foreign gentile deities that had hoodwinked the Jews into sacrificing their own children.

But gentile children still have to be fed to Yahweh as he sustains himself off of their blood (this is why animals have to be exsanguinated in Kosher slaughter, as Yahweh is the only one allowed to consume blood, as he feeds off of it). This is in Leviticus btw.

As for whether or not there are "other deities" the answer is "depending on if the Rabbi in question can use that to justify doing something". There are certainly other deities to explain why evil Anti-Semitic gentiles oppress the poor Jews by tricking them into sacrificing poor Jewish babies, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there are other deities when the Greeks come in and put an end to the Jews sacrificing gentile babies. You see how this works?

>>19912984
So we're just making shit up now?

>>19912964
Anon Jerusalem was a barren field during the time in which Solomon is supposed to have existed. We know because the Hittites and Egyptians both took turns burning down the Levant for four centuries. Likewise, every single dig on the Temple Mount has demonstrated that no, the First Temple doesn't exist.

Now, granted, the digs are only there because the IDF is digging tunnels under the Temple Mount so that they can genocide Palestinians by collapsing chunks of Palestinian villages, so these digs aren't exactly the most thorough, but still.

>>19912991
That is how the Torah works, yes.

>>19912995
>Now, granted, the digs are only there because the IDF is digging tunnels under the Temple Mount so that they can genocide Palestinians by collapsing chunks of Palestinian villages, so these digs aren't exactly the most thorough, but still.
lmfao and these are the people that christfags believe the universe was created for

>>19912984
Or maybe the "jews" started worshipping moloch instead of Yahweh in the talmud?
>>19913000
You're playing the Jews' game by confusing the Talmud with the Torah.

>>19912898
“Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thence-forward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are it’s life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaded, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshadowing; but now they had entered in the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the world had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it.”
The Timeless Halls are both outside of time and the World, Eä. Immaterial.

>why didn't Frodo just ride an eagle all the way to Mt. Doom?!
Because Sauron would have seen them and had the Nazgûl kill him

>>19913009
What’s wrong with genocide?

>>19912984
do you have sources for these outlandish claims or do you just want people to take your word for it

>>19913010
Ezekiel was written around 580BC (if we believe the Torah's internal dating; this is after the Babylonian Exile so it meets the historical maximum) and Leviticus cites laws and legal theory from roughly 500BC to 300BC (again, roughly, and this too meets the historical maximum). The Jerusalem Talmud was compiled over the 4th century (300sAD) from prior works (some of which are textually confirmed to have existed before this even if the actual events that they describe are obviously fictitious).

So, yes, I personally have no problem agreeing with the claim that the Jews started worshiping some other demon at some point, but it's pretty clear from the Torah that they were worshiping one already, so it's just exchanging one demon for another.

>>19913034
That would be the Torah.

>>19905596
Oh jeez. I feel like this is such a common occurrence on 4chan. Edgy atheists who have been convinced of le based Christianity meme, but can’t shake their actual deep seeded lack of belief. If God is real, he won’t thank you

>>19913067
He should worship Odin and go around killing people. It’s cooler.

>>19912935
They are real demons.

>>19906919
t. man led to sadness

>>19913067
>but can’t shake their actual deep seeded lack of belief
This is definitely true of people here. Makes me disturbed how it seems that social context controls religious belief so definitively. All idealists now are LARPers and all materialists/atheists would have been devoutly religious in the past and it's all defined by what the cool/cultured people of the era are sneering at in most cases

>>19911386
>birth name was Christian Vikernes

>>19913183
Murder is cool tho you got to admit

>>19912224
>Melkor created matter (hroa), Arda is his kingdom. To get to Valinor, you can't have any melkor-matter within you, one must become pure spirit (fea).
i dont remember anything in the books indicating either one of these things

This reminds me of that Tolkien biopic where his Catholic faith hasn't been touched upon at all aside from like one conversation with a priest. Is this where people get the idea of Tolkien not being inherently religious?

>>19913135
I feel like so much of modern belief, especially on the internet is just a fucking LARP. Honestly it’s disgusting

>>19913232
whats the solution

>>19905618
>the reign of Charlemagne, the Anglo-Saxon Alcuin playing a major part in the Carolingian Renaissance. By 800, the Carolingian Empire was essentially Christianized. In the judgement of J. R. R. Tolkien the Anglo-Saxon mission was "…one of the chief glories of ancient England, and one of our chief services to Europe even regarding all our history
Charlemagne was the greatest, only second to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

>>19912846
No. Seethe.

>>19905711
Based

>>19913183
His entire life is a joke

>>19908195
that's not relevant to my post. there's what he says about the books for interviewers, and there's what the books are in actuality.
So, when interviewers ask him about the spirituality of his characters and the absence of religion in his books he becomes completely obscure.
how do you explain that?

>>19905602
My diary, desu

>>19905749
thanks for such a brilliant response but it talks right past my post...i didnt say anything about Tolkien's personal spirituality. i was talking about the books, which, you agree, arent christian, but a "confused mess" - at least partially, but proudly, pagan in nature. a fact he's obviously hesitant to discuss in public.

>>19913619
Why are you using interviews as authoratative when he left clear notes and letters explaining what he meant?

>>19913635
>i was talking about the books, which, you agree, arent christian, but a "confused mess" - at least partially, but proudly, pagan in nature.
Retard. Here's what Tolkien actually wrote.

>>19913220
>i don't remember anything in the books
that's because you haven't read History of Middle Earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgoth%27s_Ring

>>19912941
>Jews weren't doing human sacrifice.
>just ignore all the parts in the Old Testament that talk about how Jews were doing human sacrifice.
>aside from that, they weren't doing any human sacrifice, therefore they have never (*) done any human sacrifice

>>19913909
no i didnt read his son’s fan fiction im sorry

>>19905711
Christianity is withering away, and not even putting up a fight like Muslims do. Good riddance.

>>19913012
wow, you really don't understand sarcasm lol, i see i need to spell it out for ya:
i'm not arguing the Timeless Halls are immaterial, i'm arguing with your literalist interpretation of "sailing into the West" on a boat. They're not literally sailing West, because if a human "sailed west" they would just reach the Darklands or some other part of Arda. After Numenor, the world was made globed. Hence, sailing West involves more than just physically steering west and sailing. It's a journey to Valinor, which isn't even on Arda anymore, it was removed from the confines of Arda.

the "why didn't Frodo take an eagle" reference was a joke, implying that your level of literalist interpretation is akin to the "frodo take an eagle" argument that normies think of.

>i've read Silmarillion, that means i know what i've talking about
well done, now read History of Middle Earth and realize how you know very little about what you're talking about. You don't even have to read all of them, about 3-4 of the books will do (Book of Lost Tales 1&2, War of the Jewels, Morgoth's Ring, Peoples of Middle Earth being the volumes i'm getting my sources from)

>>19913935
i can tell you didn't, because you'd realize it wasn't the son's fanfiction, it was the notes and unpublished stuff of his father's. By your standard, even "Silmarillion" is "the son's fanfiction", since Tolkien was never able to get it published.

thanks for admitting you're ignorant of what you're talking about, you can shut up now :)

>>19913921
Where in the Bible did Yahweh condone or demand human sacrifice?
>>19913959
Shalom.

>>19912224
>Melkor created matter (hroa)
>Tolkien was pro-gnostic
Why do you people think making shit up is an argument?

>>19912224
>This is all important, because when you study ancient Babylonian religion, you realize that Catholicism is the inheritor of the ancient Babylonian religion, basically the same religion with a new coat of paint.
t. Read Jack Chick once.

>>19913982
>where in the Bible...?
where in my previous post did i say that? All i said was that Jews admitted in their own Old Testament to practicing human sacrifice. There reasons for doing so are a different matter.

But right now you're in defense mode, so you'll just keep not addressing the simple fact that Jews practiced human sacrifice, and then recorded that detail in the Old Testament.

>>19913996
how many times have you read "Morgoth's Ring"? If the answer is "0" (Zero) then stfu and let the adults talk, because you have no clue what you're talking about.

>>19914005
>so you'll just keep not addressing the simple fact that Jews practiced human sacrifice, and then recorded that detail in the Old Testament.
Jews practiced all kind sof idolatry in the Old Testament for which they were judged. But at no point was it demanded by Yahweh.
>>19914015
>Morgoth couldn't possibly have fastened a ring out of existing matter

>Tolkien was totally a secret gnostic pagan freemason, let me take two lines out of context and show you a few seconds from a TV interview to prove it.

>>19914018
>but at no point was it demanded by Yahweh
are you retarded? I NEVER said Yahweh demanded anything. All i said was that Jews practiced human sacrifice.
You're the only one trying to find justifications for why they did.
Only thing I see is that they practiced it. All you care about is trying to act like "they no longer do, so it's okay". Not sure i believe that excuse, but i'll pretend just for sake of argument.

I'm just glad you're admitting that Jews did practice human sacrifice. Very anti-semitic of you

>>19914018
>morgoth couldn't possibly have fastened a ring out of existing matter
you continue to display you're complete ignorance of "History of Middle Earth" material.

>i've played the video games and seen the Amazon series, I'm basically a Tolkien scholar.

>>19913960
>They're not literally sailing West, because if a human "sailed west" they would just reach the Darklands or some other part of Arda.
Yeah, because only the Elves know how to find the “Straight Road”. It’s like a wormhole or something.

>>19914050
>the boats aren't actually boats, they're spaceships, and only the elves know the entrance to the wormhole and how to navigate their space ships
is how retarded you sound now :)

>>19914059
and all because he'd rather speculate on stuff instead of just reading History of Middle Earth

>>19914039
Point to the exact page where it was he created matter to forge the ring.

>>19914059
Yes. Lord of the Rings says they’re boats. They go through a special magical route to reach Valinor that only Elves know the location of, or can find.

>>19914063
There is no speculation. Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings says they go to Valinor in boats, so they go in boats. There’s no retarded metaphor for teleportation or however you think Elves go to Valinor

>>19905584
>As a Christian atheist,
>240 replies
haha benis

>>19913960
>It's a journey to Valinor, which isn't even on Arda anymore, it was removed from the confines of Arda.
Yes, it’s removed from Arda and only reachable via the Straight Road. It is still part of Eä, as Ilúvatar stated the Valar are confined to the physical world until the end of it.

>>19905711
*replaces the monk with a sheikh and the tree with a cross*
Heh, nothing personal kid.

>>19914100
Begome gristan athist :DDDDDDDD

>>19914098
>Silmarillion is the only book.
>there are no other books besides that.
fyi, it was Christopher Tolkien that had that book published. If you accept Silmarillion as canon, then why not History of Middle Earth, too?
it all amounts to the same thing, writings of Tolkien that were only later published by Christopher

>>19914093
and History of Middle Earth says that Valinor is a spirit realm that no physical matter can exist in.
The boats aren't even the only way of getting there, there's also Olore Malle.

you really should stop acting like you're a Tolkien scholar when you've only read a few of the books.

>>19914101
>still part of Ea
that's possible, i'll admit. I don't think Valinor was translocated to Timeless Halls, which leaves Ea.
But neither do i think that they just went to a different planet, in outerspace (what Tolkien calls Kuma). Reason being that Melkor was banished to Kuma, and prevented from returning via "the Walls of Night" or somehting like that, basically a barrier around Arda that prevented him from physically returning. Tolkien also wrote in History of Middle Earth that Melkor (while in banishment) destroyed every other planet in Ea, and that only Arda was left.

So where does that leave Valinor? Not in Timeless Halls, not in outerspace? A different dimension of some sorts? A spirit realm, still a part of Ea, at least partially (connected via Straight Road and Olore Malle the Dream Road).

But Tolkien *did* write in HoME that physical matter had become corrupted by Melkor, and that Valinor (after Numenor Flood) was removed from the physical realm and that only pure spirit could enter from then on.