/lit/ - Literature

>>20336884
>Is magic real?
Yes.

Of course it's not. Grow up. Currently reading Eliphas Levis' "Higher magic" and it's just an endless string of unprovable and ridiculous affirmations built around random analogies (this planet means this, this sign means that) that the author ASSURES us can bring one to a higher level of consciousness. It's like a huge sales pitch for a product that doesn't work. Also, it's overly Satanic and says it bases itself on the Kabbalah (Jewish tradition).

>>20336911

*overtly

>>20336911
lying british robber

No, it isn't.

harry potter is disclosure of the wizarding world and those who seek to keep it secret.

>>20336936
Is umineko worth reading?

>>20336911
>Satanic

Satan is as real as magic.

>>20336884
>About one in twenty women are possessed of this thing I call magic. They can be of any age, any nationality. They are aware of the power of creation, the love force, and they remind mankind that its soul can recall golden times

>>20336911
Wait, do you mean to tell us, you DON'T believe in magic?

>>20336911
>Of course it's not. Grow up.
glow harder

>>20336884
Don't even bother reading it in translation. Most scholars in this field say that even in the original you cannot know wtf is going on because these types of works are always written in code. Even if you are fluent in Latin, as the scholars were, you will never go beyond the veil.

>>20336884
>Is magic real?
Yes. Don't fuck with it.

>>20336884
Obviously magic isn't real but reading contemporary books on the topic can provide really interesting insights into how they thought the world functioned and show some precursors to modern science

>>20336884
There is a lot of types of magic. This isn't what you want to hear, but it's the truth. Illusion, music, hypnotism, drugs, imagination, compounding interest.
What do you think magic is? You will find something real in it and maybe in the mysticism around it.

>>20336884

Yes, it's very obviously real to anyone that pays even the slightest attention to the world. I've been down this rabbit hole - Don't do it, just accept that Christ is God to save the trouble.

Here's the thing: Magic is appealing because it promises to offer secret, deep knowledge about the cosmos. In many cases, there are some true spiritual principles sprinkled in there, that make the world make 500% more sense than just rank dumb 0 IQ materialism, and give you the beginnings of a comprehensive idea of history deeper than "monkeys do meaningless things and then do more meaningless things lul".

At the highest levels of any type of magic, it always involves direct participation in demonic possession of some kind - Godforms in Postmodern Occultism (derived from classical gnosticism), Yidams in Tantrayana, "surging with the energies of lucifer" in Manly P. Hall, and "Yeah, you're getting more and more overt suggestions from demons, don't worry about that bro" in the Evola-Ur Group's introduction to magic vol 2.

Don't do what I did and open yourself up to demonic influence through delving into this stuff - Skip to the end, accept Christ as God.

>>20336911
>endless string of unprovable and ridiculous affirmations built around random analogies (this planet means this, this sign means that)
Filtered

Magic defies causality, so there are no laws of magic, therefore no system.

>>20338848
Demons don't want to be here in any more than you. Why accept prison planet?

>>20338885

They have no choice, and are eternally seething at how they know they're damned, and want to drag as many people down with them before the end times.

You know people who fall to despair, want to kill themselves, and try to bring down as many people possible with them? That's a small taste of the mentality of demons - now lock that mentality into the same being that has lived for thousands of years, surrounded by beings with the same mentality, constantly seething, unable to die, and constantly wanting to drag people down into the same constant pain they're in.

>>20338848
This about sums up my experience, nicely worded

>>20338848
Why not Allah?

>>20338950

Many reasons, but the theological reasons are that Islam falls to either deism(in most confessions) or pantheism(in Ismaili Islam, and sufism).

Deism makes it impossible to actually know God directly, making any claims about God indistinguishable from fiction by the standards of the deistic framework itself, and pantheism is what is at the core of most occultist belief systems.

>>20338899
it makes sense their suffering?. they just need a hug?.

>>20336884
Maybe.

>>20336945

>>20339225
yawn

>>20337520
It really is if you're willing to have patience with it

>>20338824
I get the idea, but omg, that's probably the gayest thing ever written

>>20338878
No it doesn't, it's just faulty/unexplained logic how A causes B.
For example in sympathetic magic if I create an artistic representation of your face and I jizz on it while I'm in a liminal state (altered consciousness or on a crossroad etc), you'll supposedly wake up with salty taste in your mouth. This is what filtered OP, je didn't understand why analogies are important in magic.
So the system is pretty clear, but the only difference between anthropological and occultist perspective is whether it works *really* or *not really* (placebo, magic has latent functions etc).

>>20338969
Wow, this is exactly what Shia Imams said. Without the Imam, it would be impossible to know God without falling into ta'til ("agnosticism," believing an empty concept of God) or tashbih ("assimilationism," believing God is similar to His creation). If this is genuinely your only problem with Islam, then I would say check out Twelver Shi'ism.

>>20336884
Yes

>>20336911
>magic isn't real
>thinks god and satan are real
holy fuck you're pathetic

Define magic

>>20339348
>logic how A causes B
Your understanding of causality is flawed. Logic only applies to propositions.

Idealism being correct means magic is real, just not something you can do because you don't have the right ideas :^)

>>20339619

Can you recommend a good book to read about it?

I'm settled into Orthodox Christianity, so I would be looking into this for curiosity - but I am interested in reading what Twelver Shi'ism makes a case for if it correctly identifies the problem of both of those sides.

>>20338878
>believing in causality
And what's the first cause?

>>20339663
You can't believe in laws if you don't believe in causality.

>>20338950
>>20338969
>>20339619
Allah and the Catholic God are the same one, those are just two names for the same thing

>>20339663
I could always ask why the first cause happened.

>>20339669
I can believe in laws that begin and end, existing temporarily, being non fundamental.

>>20339672
I don't actually believe in first causes nor causality, I'm just baiting.

>>20339671

I know they're the same name, Allah is just the Arabic name of God. I've heard Arabic Orthodox Liturgy before.

It's not honest to say that the Catholic God and the Muslim God are the same - you would have to subordinate one doctrine to the other to make that claim, and you cannot be a Christian and believe in Islam because the Quran makes countless repetitions that it's not fitting for God to have a Son.

I'm Orthodox btw, and so from one perspective, I would be happy to say that in many ways the RC Church and Islam have the same God, but not for nice reasons.

>>20339675

>I don't believe in causes
>Explains the final cause of his actions

Anon...

>>20339673
They're not laws if there is no necessity involved.
>I can believe in laws that begin and end
How? How can a law begin and end without a cause or reason? How would you know the law has begun or ended? How would you even know there is a law at all?

>>20339681
>>I don't believe in causes
"Believing in causality" in this case would implicate believing in causality as an exclusive fundamental way for things to happen, rather than causality at all?

>>20339659
The best academic introductions I knew of are "The Divine Guide in Early Shi'ism" and "What is Shi'i Islam?" by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi (I highly recommend reading both). If you happen speak French, I would highly suggest En Islam iranien vol.1 by Henry Corbin (unfortunately not translated to English).

>>20336907
i dont know but its fun to read

>>20339692

Could you rephrase your post to be less ambiguous? I don't understand how to parse it.

>>20339704
Meant to reply to >>20339687

>>20339685
>How can a law begin and end without a cause or reason?
From my view, reality without any causes or objects existing that are necessitated is the cumulative attainment (per individual) of all creativity that has passed or happened. Things that exist simply cascade and utilize causality because, it's possible to make things whose consequences are not just in linear interaction but rather their varied flux, not because they have to. The actual fundamental nature of reality would be ineffable creative spontaneity that creates things that are (can be) consistent, observes and infers consistency of them and then moves on to something else. All "things" would be possible, they would simply need to be reached first and aren't already contained in a perfect God, because such a thing contradicts the creative potential of infinite creative progress that is, in it's truest word "infinite". This creative fundamental is completely elusive and isn't in any way hindered by it's creativity, otherwise it would require a creative-destruction aspect that would make reality incredibly pessimistic and chaotic or would lead to a possible "annihilation" of all reality. Every phenomenological experience (can) contributes to it. It is also not causally deterministic, and instead all things that seem causally deterministic are simply observed and logically simplified parts of the creativity, but the fundamental doesn't really need any of that. Hunger or primitive desires and needs are creative objects that man tries to fully observe and usually fails, and until they do so they relive them because creativity and infinity existing don't negate the possibility of patterns and repetition, quite the opposite.

>>20339710
Things can follow causality, but they don't need to. You can use a computer to make a program that loops infinitely but you can also make one that closes immediately, and even the looping program can eventually shut down, just needs to be done by a higher "authority" (ie Admin permission, or pulling the plug on the PC).

>>20339761

> just needs to be done by a higher "authority" (ie Admin permission, or pulling the plug on the PC).

That's a cause.

>>20339671
So is Muhammad the seal of the prophets or not? Is Jesus a god, yes or no?

>>20338848
in which part of introduction to magic volume 2 it says this? tell me the chapter(s)

>>20339792
In which case, the higher authority needs to cease without causality otherwise it remains active. If you don't have a non causative cessation, you end up with some kind of infinite regression.

>>20336884
No.
Neither in the pragmatic nor the spiritual scene does magic bring result.
If viewed from the pragmatic viewpoint, that is, the viewpoint of hard science, then a quick rundown through history will show that magic never EVER worked as an apotropaiic, cursing, love and money bringing, healing practice.
Magic and its ambassadors, the cunning men, didn't bring much solace, in the form of victuals and health, to medieval English peasants. Only the advances in medicine - the abandonment of the humoral theory for correct anatomy and the acceptance of germ theory with the concomitant development of vaccine and antibiotics - improved the lot of peasants, not some old wise woman Jenny who stole wafers and healed in the name of Cain, Divell and Christ.
And where was the power magic in that fateful 16th century, when Spanish conquistadors decimated hundreds of thousands of natives who are now regarded as incredibly spiritually advanced (the wise Indian trope)? Where were the Kanaima hiding and why, instead of attacking invaders, they beat up women and children, sodomized them with sticks, stuffed them with poison and, after their inevitable deaths, drank through a straw their putrefying flesh? Is this the power of magic? Necrosadistic raping of women and kids, mass murders in Tenochtitlan, pulling ropes through your dick, and all for nothing - is this what the awesome magic of America has to offer? The beating of children by the Anashinka - who believed that the best way to get rid of a sorcerous attack, their codewords for crop blight and disease, was to abuse children till they cried out of pain because their suffering implies release from black magic - didn’t help against famine, smallpox, and revolutions. And right now there are occultist in Western world, modern and civilized, who are attracted to this, literal and moral, shit. The Cultus Sabbati, has Witehead’s anthology and his book about Kanaima as recommended reading.
Why didn't tantric gods, dangerous, awesome, promising boundless power, failed to provide in the middle ages at least one ruler with enough shakti to destroy his enemies and erect an unified kingdom either in India or Tibet? Why didn’t they help the Indian kings, by tantrikas into their mandalas initiated, to repel the peristaltic waves of Moslem diarrhea? Why didn’t fierce tantric deities help Tibet against the read death of Communist China? Such awesome power, sequestred behind initiations, that amounts to less than dust in a wind. The tantric initiators who acted as power brokers in the medieval India and promised power to local petty kings via submission to their initiations make contemporary con men and their schemes look like kindergarten play.

>>20339934
And what about the famous magician of the 20th century, Aleister Crowley? Why didn’t the gods and spirits help Crowley acquire funds after he had squandered his inheritance? You would think the spirits would treat such an important asset as the “prophet of a New Aeon” with care instead of leaving him, penniless, to the vicissitudes of ordinary life: a sea in which many brilliant men had prematurely perished.
Or even the latest magical special kid Chumbley. Why didn’t the Sabbatic spirits, who have the power to kick inappropriate aspirant off their current, warn Chumbley that it’s not wise with his asthma to engage with animal material and incense? Why didn’t they help him with finding a job and getting rid of welfare? If the spirits had chosen him to initiate the Sabbatic current, why did they allow him to die at the age of 37?
If you try to analyze the spirit logic, you’d get a picture of something even more incompetent than human politicians, of something so dumb it’s a miracle it exists, if it exist at all: something that promises power but has none to give, something that chooses special people for special vatic missions but fails to guide them through life unharmed. Even the dumbest parents care more about their dumbest offspring than the all powerful, all wise, all knowing spirits about their chosen prophets.
To sum up this part, magic didn’t and doesn’t amount to anything in the hard physical world of matter and in the ineluctable sphere of the economical and social.
As a cope occultists focus on the spiritual, the Great Work, which results are even more ephemeral than the virginity status of an eighteen year old roastie. Even here, however, their claims amount to nothing.
In matter spiritual there is, in fact, a control group - people such as Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, Chogyam Trungpa, Adi Da, Muktananda, both Krishamurtis, Ke Wilber, and their Western, educated followers who have experientially verified the teaching given to them - and the problem with Western magic, be it as a democratic system as Thelema or ultra-elite one like the Cultus Sabbati, is that it yet had to produce someone of the same caliber as Ramana Maharshi. Sure, magicians get a lot of vision, cross the Abyss on the reg, receive the benefice and malefice of Azhdeha, but neither of them, as is obvious through their teachings, has reached the same permanent state of realization as Wilber, Adi Da, or Maharshi.
And the reason is because they’re engaged not in spiritual enlightenment, but in self-hypnos and self-delusion.

>>20339678
What I mean is that they were the same originally but them people separated them as the religion spread. Then the old testament and the quran were written and the became even more different, then they fought against each other, etc. But essentially they are the same because there were only one religion at the beginning

>>20339938
What set Eastern religion apart is that the main method they teach - different forms of mindfulness meditation - works without the doctrinal superstructure. You don’t need to believe in the Buddha, avoid cows, eat grains and rays of the sun, in order for the meditation to work. You sit down, perform the meditation and, in proper time and depending on the severity of the practice, get results. I remember /lit/ posting articles about roasties who went to a meditation retreat to think about life and stuff and ended up psychotic because they got more than they asked and because they didn’t know that meditation was always used as a method of spiritual development and inquiry rather than stress relief: an obvious example that meditation works even in people who know nothing about Eastern faiths.
While doing magic, however, you are always engaged in system that direct your visions. You’re never in a vacuum as with meditation. Being engaged with magic means reading books and, most importantly, learning about the gods, deities, demons, whatever gaseous invertebrates you want to invoke: a form of incubation: a subtle process of adjusting your expectations about the result. In magic you’re never dropped in the middle of action and given a practice to learn without careful long winded pedantic instruction. First, you read the books, then you do the work. The result of this obvious indoctrination is that every magic current sees whatever it is trained to see. You’re deeply in Thelema; you’ll have vision of Horus and Nuit. If you’re Typhonian, you’ll be haunted by the Qliphoth. If you’re in the Cultus Sabbati, you’ll receive the grace of Azhdeha and the Mothers and Fathers of Witchcraft. Never, NEVER, you’ll experience visions that are outside the bounds of the system.
Even the received texts betray that influence of the system. The Book of the Law is dripping with Crowley’s Golden Dawn training and Egyptological interests - it’s a reflection of Crowley, endogenously generated, not a text from some transcendental above. If it did feature material unknown to Crowley - like, for example, Newari tantra, Bon mantras, Buryat chants - then it would’ve raised some questions. But it doesn’t. This apply to every received occult text. They never bring anything innovative but seem a garbled gumbo of whatever boiled in the occultist’s head. And if there’s such a proliferation of systems, all with their prophets clamouring that they have the truth, then a certain question imposes: is it more likely that insignificant Earth has a an astral sphere as crammed as a Chinese slum, or is it more likely that all these vision and cults originate in the inflamed brains of the magicians?
The next point directly from this one: if visions are so personal and so obviously influenced by the host system, why do they must be real visions of real spirits? I

>>20339948
In order to accept the spirit model you have to dumb yourself down and forget the simple fact that human brain can generate lifelike hallucinations and imaginary worlds. Imbibe belladonna or datura and see for yourself how much power the brain has over altering reality. No one, even people with a below average IQ, accept that dreams are real no matter how realistic they are, and someone who had met people suffering from delirium wouldn’t believe that the victims are witnessing an alternate reality. Yet, the occultists, who drive themselves into hypnotic and hypnagogic altered states of consciousness by repetitive kinetic and mental actions - often using psychedelics or, in case of the Cultus Sabbati, deliriants like atropine - believe that what they see is real: an incredible example of cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics.
Another thing that further confirms that occultism is about self-hypnotism and nothing else is their training into seeing synchronicities and believing they’re guided by ancestors, angels, spirits, or whatever. Once engaged in a system, you’ll see details that you have previously screened out as relevant to you - like numbers or letters or names that are important in the cult - and they, in turn, will create a feedback loop that will further reinforce your belief. You’ll go into Thelema and in a matter of weeks you’ll be drowning in the feeling of being chosen by noticing 93 and Crowley’s everywhere. I myself had fallen into this trap when I read the Cultus Sabbati material and started noticing AZ everywhere…until I stopped reading and moved on. The whole premise is the same as the coin exercise of Prometheus Rising and the 23 noting of the Discordians - you attune yourself to receive certain signals which were always there but weren’t previously relevant to you. A step further and then all your life events will be filtered through the prism of successful/unsuccessful rites and angry/benign spirits.
And this is what high magic and occultism is about spiritually: self indoctrination and self-induced hallucinations.

>>20339807
No and no. They are just people who wanted to take advantage of the already existing religions

>>20336884
It's just as much real as any religion or ideology

>>20339955
If you’re really serious about spiritual work, then choose an Eastern discipline and stick with it. There’s a less chance to fall into delusions of grandeur because both modern masters - Ramana Maharshi, who said that visions happen when one loses connection with the Ultimate Reality - and old alike - Buddhist tradition speak of visions as connecting with the fault of dullness in meditation, which they equate with torpor close to sleep - agree that spiritual work isn’t related to any kind of visionary experience, no matter how grandiose.
The only thing that magic and occult produces are shoals of cancerous selves, each one a prophet, always warring with each other - it’s usual to meet a fat Cultus Sabbati practitioner who badmouths Thelemites for arranging rituals in a mall while believing that drinking menstrual blood from a skullcup and cumming in jars makes him superiour to them - and who are as far away as possible from what it defined as enlightenment in Eastern systems.
There is interesting material in the occult that can be employed in writing in the same way schizo rambling and dreams are a fertile ground for the imagination but, at its roots, the occult is spiritually barren, empty.
And not Nagarjuna empty.
Simply empty.

>>20339934
>>20339938
>>20339955
>>20339960
tldr
>if you want magic go east instead of west, westerns are INT builds while easterners are WIS builds

>>20339650
>Idealism being correct means magic is real, just not something you can do because you don't have the right ideas :^)
Elaborate or recommend me a book on this connection between idealism and magic.

>>20336911
High magic to low puns

>>20339979
Just do some introspection and (pseudo)Scientific inquiry, question (and practice) seeing
>what idea causes movement in my body and why
>how much of what I believe causes it can I isolate so that it still works, and what can I not isolate to make it work
>what happens when I have simultaneous conflicting intent on moving my body
>realize that thoughts do not have to exist purely in a single moment, but can "extend" across time. Think of a dot for 5 seconds, it's an idea that is constant and ceases when you stop.
>then think of a dot that doesn't cease until you cease it, instead of depending on you giving up on it
>try to discover all possibilities your mind can have that you previously ascribed to external phenomena, and never stop finding new possibilities, feed it with your observations or intuitions
Then extend the answers and ask questions again, but for your own thoughts, feelings, emotions, basically stuff that is only visible to you. Eventually, use this knowledge as building blocks for creating any thought/feeling/emotion, stuff only visible to you that you want. Then create ones that you feel will give you more wisdom or insight into all possibilities of reality, like freedom to be creative of anything or to recognize any pattern unknown to you. After all that, recognize all things that are not necessary and find what is fundamental. And at some point, if you're lucky you might, on occasion experience an (or a lot of) overly specific Jungian synchronicity that you cannot ascribe to anything, which may at some point become precise enough and become potentially a "prediction".
>connection between idealism and magic
You have a mind, other people have a mind. Matter would just be something that can arise from the interaction of two subjects, instead of being objective, just "consistent" instead of short lived like most thoughts and interacted with through ideas and systems of transferring ideas. You have no mind-which-is-not-mind, just mind. Necessitating the existence of something that has absolutely 0 mind and is an arbiter and intermediary for subjective minds is really unnecessary.
>recommend me a book
The Pali Canon. Not saying what I describe is Buddhist, but this is the best recommendation I can make. Western introspection feels like a meme compared to what Buddhists and Yogis do.
>inb4 schizo
Works on my machine.

>>20340057
I see. Thanks.

>>20339934
magic bad even tho tibet conquered china

>>20337537
Satan isn't real but Satanists are, and they do some really wicked shit

>>20340493
>working out is bad because a guy with a gun can kill you

>>20339960
hey bro. ironically evola says mostly the same thing as you.
He says and repeats in intro to magic etc how visions, etc are just illusions. It's all controlled by your own mind, which is the same way trungpa thinks.
This is also why tibetan buddhism has lucid dream training: you play with the illusions, you observe themc to realize they're not real.

>>20339944

Then answer the question directly: Which one is the faithful continuation of the original worship of the one true God? The religion which worships God, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, or the religion that says that it is not fitting for God to have a Son?

>>20339831

Part 2, chapter to, Iagla, Subterranean Logic.

It's written like a guide to awaken you against the influences of demons making suggestions to your mind - and that part is true, demons do plant suggestions to blindly follow base pleasures, and even refined pleasures. The article is accurate about describing that reality.

But, that should raise an extremely concerning question: Does the magician have any sense of pleasure or pride at all about being a magician, about holding secret knowledge, about being initiated, about being above the plebs? Is it possible that demons are pushing subterranean logic through occultists, through the passion of pride? If the mechanism of action of suggestive magic is demonic influence, since demons are not bound by a fleshly body, why would it not also be the secret mechanism of action of other kinds of magic that aren't chalked up to demons?

Nah. Don't think about it too much. Just continue to bathe yourself in demonic energies to manipulate others with subterranean logic, to assert yourself as the superior Magus - you won't be opening yourself up to the demons you think you direct, and those demons certainly aren't communicating subterranean impulses to fulfill the pleasure of pride in you.

>>20339907

In which case the highest authority himself can be uncaused - and everything downwards is caused.

>>20336911
Damn, that's alotta pretty words for sayin' absoLUTEly nothin'...

Magic is real. Once you go deep enough into the forest you start to see the trees as they really are: a part of the forest.

>>20342130
>Iagla
That's one of Evola's aliases, and his view here on demonic or infra-psychic influences is consistent with his thoughts on mediumship and divination. Basically he held such practices in a very low regard, and he also scolded the author for attending a seance in The Sufi of Rome.

>>20336884

Occult means "hidden from view."

These people are confused.

>>20342149
what is magic for
the original purpose for magic ?

>>20342368

Confused means "mingling together."

Yes, these people are mingling together in this thread.

(Don't be autistic with etymology.)

>>20342174

Did you read the post you responded to?

>>20342608
Yes, point out where I am wrong.

>>20342618

You didn't say anything wrong, but you also didn't address what the post brought up.

It's like if someone asked "How tall is this bridge?" and you said "Bridges are what people use to cross bodies of water, or chasms.". You didn't say anything wrong - but you didn't respond to the core question or point.

>>20342734
Alright, I see your point. To refute the point of magicians being prideful, the essay Serpentine Wisdom in Introduction to Magic vol. 1 points out real magicians will never reveal themselves as magicians or boast about possessing occult knowledge.

>>20343010

That doesn't address the forms of pride brought up in the post - private pride.

Private pride can then overflow and demand shows external pride, revealing themselves as magicians to others, boasting about occult knowledge, etc, which the essay "Serpentine Wisdom" addresses, but it's certainly possible to stay quiet, and revel in pride inwardly without making any outward shows.

>>20338969
How does Islam fall to deism?

He is Allah, The Hearer of Prayer, The Responder to Prayer.
He is Allah, The Omnipresent.
He is Allah, The Witness, The Ever-Watchful.
He is Allah, The All-Encompassing, The All-Pervading, The One whose Knowledge, Might and Mercy has encompassed everything.
He is Allah, The One who has Power over every affair.
He is Allah, The One, The Helper, The Friend, whose help is certainly near.
He is Allah, The Inspirer of Faith, The Guide, for the one He intends to guide, none can misguide and for the one He intends to misguide, none can guide.
He is Allah, The Most Loving, The Adored One, The One who declares war on those who are hostile to His Chosen Friends (saints).
He is Allah, The All-Sustainer, there is nothing in the heavens and the earth but that it receives sustenance from His Lordship and His Decree.
He is Allah, The Omnipotent Sovereign, the preservation of the heavens and the earth is carried out by His Lordship.

...

>>20336884
>Picatrix
Replace 'magic' in your thought with 'the mysteries'. Or accept Newtons and Einsteins and materialists whole cloth.

>>20338848
>christcuck
dropped

>>20342134
>can be
So can his actions, otherwise you fall into a paradoxical determinism. The highest cause not being an arbitrary God.

>>20342130
I admittedly haven't read the Introduction, but for a related work, even from a Christian point of view, on the relationship between the sin of pride and magic, Meditations on the Tarot touches frequently upon the effect of "inflation" and its consequences.

>>20343344
>newton
>materialist
he was heavily into /x/

>>20343526
Also, it's irrational to imply that there is a "person" who isn't uncaused and who didn't reach dependence on causation through the uncaused. Nor is there a reason he still wouldn't be capable of uncaused just because caused things exist.

>>20343329

In many Islamic confessions, to protect Tawhid, they will say that it is impossible to experience Allah directly in the created world, since that would involve composition of some kind in Allah, and violate his absolute one-ness. Thus all manifestations of Allah area actually created intermediaries, and the message of Allah is transmitted through either prophets, angels, djinn, writings, or other configurations of created matter - and no direct experience of Allah is ever possible.

This is one way in which I can say Catholics and Muslims worship the same God - since the Roman Catholic dogma states the same thing. Orthodox Christianity doesn't fall to that error.

>>20343612

>capable of uncaused

C'mon. That implies a caused movement from potential to actuality for a capacity to be actuality. Will is a cause.

The causal cannot comprehend the a-causal. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

>>20343621
Hey Orthodox anon, you seem pretty well versed in all this stuff. What are the essential orthodox reads besides the bible itself for a pleb like me?

>>20343637
Then that's just fundamental determinism. Having only the first thing ever happening be uncaused is irrational, no reason this "possibility" is lost with time.

>>20343710

Most essential thing is to get the "flavor" of Orthodoxy, especially what the struggles of the recent Orthodox saints are. I've got some recommendations:

1. Fr. Seraphim Rose's original biography, "Not of this World". The revised version, while still mostly good, has been heavily censored when Platina came under new management. Here's a link to a PDF transcription: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XF8B98HwlTHeft0BU05rS0sbgy2qBmdR/view?usp=sharing

2. Russia's Catacomb Saints. PDF and blog form is here: https://russiascatacombsaints.blogspot.com/, bootleg printing is here: https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/a-turner/russias-catacomb-saints/paperback/product-2dzwp8.html?page=1&pageSize=4

3. For the modern native English speaker, anything by Fr. Seraphim Rose is good, since he comes from an American background, died a Holy Saint, and is a good bridge between the Western mindset into Orthodoxy - God's Revalation to the Human Heart, Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age, The Soul after Death, Genesis Creation and Early Man, his translation of St. John Maximovitch's "The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God", etc.

I know this is pretty Fr. Seraphim Rose heavy, but I think he's probably *the* Orthodox Saint to read for contemporary English speakers, since he is a native English speaker, as well of stressing the importance of the right priorities in Orthodoxy. This is why it's a good idea to read the lives of the Saints, and the lives of the *recent* Saints in particular, to get a taste for what an Orthodox life is. The temptations on the left and right in modern Orthodoxy respectively, is to either discard philosophy altogether and fall prey to modernism/ecumenism by not thinking about the real differences between faiths and the world, or to emphasise philosophy too much and end up forgetting really basic Orthodox attitudes to life in favour of being technically correct in increasingly niche and abstract doctrines.

For other good general reading, you can't go wrong with reading St John Chrysostom's homilies on Genesis, or really anything by him - they're fantastic, and if you buy the editions printed by modernists, just ignore all the footnotes.

>>20343802
Thanks man. God bless! :)

>>20336884
Do you ever notice patterns among different subjects?

Nothing else to be said. Best of luck anon.

>>20343621
>it is impossible to experience Allah directly in the created world
I'm unsure of what you mean by "experience Allah directly", invoking Allah sincerely means believing that He is near and listening for He is The All-Hearing ("There is no one to share His dominion, nor does He take an aide or supporter from His creatures. He is nearer to man than man's own jugular vein.- Quran 50:16"). It's part of faith itself to know that you are indeed (directly) interacting with God, you need no intermediary, no angel or saint is needed for a believer to invoke The Exalted Lord.

I'm guessing you mean directly in a different manner. If by "in the most direct manner" then yes, "Know that you will not see your Lord until you die"- The Final Messenger (pbuh). Also, “…His veil is the light. If He were to withdraw it (the veil), the splendor of His countenance would consume His creation as far as His sight reaches.”- Muhammad (pbuh). I'm unsure of what you mean honestly, even "experience directly" is so broad, for example, Moses (peace be upon him) spoke to God directly, he even has a title for it and he is one of (if not the only) person to ever do so (in this life). This is undoubtedly experiencing God directly, Moses asked God to show Himself and a mountain was eliminated to show that no one will see God Himself until the Last Day. Furthermore, there is The Face of God, God's Beauty, this is considered to be the greatest reward in heaven, when God will descend and people will be able to see His Glory, Majesty, Splendor, Beauty... There is also Muhammad's Night Journey, "And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer."- Quran 53:9. This is referring to proximity to God in the final stage of that journey. This is also related to muslim saints (sufi sages) (Chosen Friends of God) who have or claim to have interior unveilings or other experiences (some of these experiences can cover the direct experience category) where they learn and understand truths through gnosis.

There are too many ways to approach this, I'll try to cover some of them, firstly, what kind of person would be able to "experience God directly"? Do they have to be 99.999999999th percentile in terms of faith, character, virtue etc? God bestows His Mercy upon whomever He Wills, so it is the muslim belief that it's up to God who He interacts with and to what extent and through what medium etc etc. "Sufism, mystical Islamic belief and practice in which Muslims seek to find the truth of divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of God." Allah is both The Hidden and The Manifest, God's Transcendence and His Immanence, these are both real, His Mercy exists and so does His Wrath. God annihilated many peoples, no? So was that a direct experience of His Wrath? Is Hell a direct experience of His Wrath?

>>20343621
>>20344165
My thoughts were quite scattered, I'm extremely tired, I hope you can narrow down the scope. From how I'm looking at it now, it is impossible to see God in the most direct way possible, I mean it is possible (if God Wills it) but God Himself made it this way and, in a a way, this is the only reason faith even exists, this is faith. This is Allah, The All-High, there is no way to describe Him unless He does it for us, the intellect cannot hope to grasp Him. An aspect I didn't cover at all but is very much relevant, Allah's Signs. Would God giving someone a sign not be a tremendous thing? Also what about dreams?

Ultimately though, the meeting between Allah and Moses (pbuh) reveals that you can't see God Himself, at least not yet.

>>20342130
Thanks. Very interesting chapter. I don't think your interpretation is corrept though. Not of the chapter, and not of the attitude Evola reccomended in general.

>>20338848
You fell into another mind prison, good job

>>20343802
>Seraphim Rose
lmao

>>20344165
>>20344195

>Moses asked God to show Himself and a mountain was eliminated to show that no one will see God Himself until the Last Day.
>the meeting between Allah and Moses (pbuh) reveals that you can't see God Himself, at least not yet.

That's opposite to the understanding we have in Orthodoxy - we hymn Moses as the God-seer. He saw the glory of God directly, as light and holy fire - to the degree that Moses was able to handle God's glory, and without Moses seeing his essence, since no creature can experience God's essence. This is why Moses's face shone after he came down from Mount Tabor - it wasn't the light of his own soul that was shining forth, it was the light of God Himself that was shining through Moses, since you cannot come into direct contact with God without either being burned if you hate him, or deified if you love him - and deification is being a living temple of the Holy Spirit.

>What kind of person would be able to "experience God directly"?

Like you said, it's ultimately up to God, but those who are striving to come close to God have more experiences of God than those who strive to distance themselves from God. The Orthodox Elders and Ascetics, in particular, have very frequent direct experiences of God - Elder Joseph the Hesychast of Mt Athos in particular is one that comes to mind. His biography details the continual visions he received from God, as well as gifts of clairvoyance, as a reward for his rather extreme asceticism.

>Is Hell a direct experience of His Wrath?

Yes - In the Orthodox understanding, in the days of resurrection, when everyone is resurrected into the full Glory of God, hell will be direct experience of God's love by those who hate God - just like how a liar is burned by the truth, so those who hate God burn in God's presence.

>>20344195

What you said is true for the majority of people's experience of God - through secondary, created effects. But, if God is only experienceable through these secondary created effects, then from a purely first principles perspective, it is impossible to actually tell which effects are from God, and which are deceptions by humans or demons. Even if, by first principles you allow direct experience of God, you must deal with the problem of deceptions - but at least it is now possible to have direct experience of God and communication from God, instead of that being categorically impossible.

Believing in God without seeing God directly is a rational part of faith - but the deeper part of faith, is loyalty, love, trust, and closeness with God. The fulfillment of that closeness is a direct closeness with God - to the point that a Saint becomes a living temple of the Holy Spirit.

>>20338848
>____ is good
>____ is bad
>do not do ___