/lit/ - Literature

>>21021977
> Why does every German I come across hate their own cultural heritage and literature?
I’m German and I don’t know a single one that does that

>>21021977
>quotes from Adorno
and there we have it.

>>21021977
>Everywhere I go I meet these staunch antinationalists who won’t even acknowledge that there’s a German culture and when I ask them if they’ve read Heidegger they just shake their heads and say ”waznt ze a nazi?”
I think this happened in your head

>>21021977
>when I ask them if they’ve read Heidegger they just shake their heads and say ”waznt ze a nazi?”
This makes me think of something I noticed some time ago. Out of curiosity, I looked up contemporary German philosophers and all of them seem to be either social theorists or theologians. Is the Heidegger Nazi connection so overwhelming to them as a people that they've just abandoned metaphysics as a whole?

>>21021989
What about Klaas Heufer-Umlauf then?

>>21022011
Where does he state that he hates German culture and literature?

>>21021977

>>21021989
Habermas acts this way, he popularized the Heidegger-nazi thing.

>>21022009
I’m German and I studied philosophy (among other things) in university. We read Heidegger and no one went like „uh but he is le evil nazi“. It’s just that ontology in general went out of fashion for the most part in Germany (except for that weird object oriented ontology phase in the 2000s). The existentialists in France reference him a lot though

>>21022031
Just because someone (rightfully) exposes Heidegger it doesn’t mean that he hates German culture and literature

>>21022018
Duell um die Welt Ep. 6, with Capital Bra

>>21022061
>er schaut deutsches Fernsehen
>noch dazu mit Sprechgesangskünstlern
Kein Wunder, dass deine Intelligenz auf bedauernswertem Niveau ist

>>21022047
Do you know any living philosophers in Germany who do something other that cultural theory? I'm just curious what those kind of philosophers would be interested in.

>>21022079
Germs don’t do anything but criticise racism, homophobia, phobiaphobia today and praise Putin against NATO-aggressors

Arid culture. Dead.

New names
>Rahel Jaeggi (critical theory)
>Byung Chul Han (cultural theory + Heidegger)
>Axel Honneth (marxist critical theory)
>Ulrich Beck (sociology)
>Hartmut Rosa (sociology)
…

>>21022058
Dasein is correct though, at least in a masculine man. Women and children are subjects, a man is Dasein.

>>21022079
Sure
Waldenfels and Rombach fire phenomenology, Tugenhat and Bieri for analytical philosophy, Janich and Mittelstraß for the so called „Erlanger Constructivism“, Karl Otto Appel for neopragmatism, Günter Abel and Hans Lenk for some weird branch of epistemology that they call Interpretationism. I don’t know how much you’ll find in English though, contemporary German philosophy doesn’t get translated often
Btw., not even Habermas does critical theory anymore. Idk why people think that it would be relevant here anymore outside of maybe Frankfurt

>>21022115
Sorry small mistake, Bieri is Swiss, not German

>>21022074
>er sippt keinen BraTee™ während er abends nach einem langen Tag Literatur liest
couldnt be me

>>21022114
You do not understand what you are talking about.

>>21022114
This is jibberish within the context of Heidegger's work

>>21022155
Dasein = there to be = responsible

There is no god or chance, you are a man and you are here to be. Unless you're so diseased that you've lost your ability to will, then you're not a man anymore. Neither are you a woman or child, you're too ugly. You're closer to being a dog, but a sickly one at that.

>>21022115
>Btw., not even Habermas does critical theory anymore. Idk why people think that it would be relevant here anymore outside of maybe Frankfurt
I think it might be because he's one of three living German philosophers known in the English-speaking world. The other two being Sloterdijk and Byung Chul Han.

Because the Jews are liars

>>21022174
"The 'Guilty !' which belongs to the Being of Dasein is something that can be neither augmented nor diminished. It comes before any quantification, if the latter has any meaning at all. Moreover, Dasein is essentially guilty-not just guilty on some occasions, and on other occasions
not. Wanting-to-have-a-conscience resolves upon this Being-guilty. To project oneself upon this Being-guilty, which Dasein is as long as it is, belongs to the very meaning of resoluteness."

Can you say that about a woman or child? no, they cannot accept responsibility because they have none. They are subjects.

>>21021977
German culture is cringe desu

>>21022222
You've quoted B&T but then proved you didn't understand a word of it.

>they cannot accept responsibility
See: Falling, Das Man, this isn't new

>because they have none
Now you're crossing the lines between ontic responsibility (social pressures, expectations, etc) and responsibility as an existential structure, which is what Heidegger is talking about with Dasein.

>They are subjects
I don't know what you mean by this but I can almost guarantee that you've just shoehorned in some concept of subjectivity into a context that it doesn't belong in. Dasein is the structure of our experience as such prior to becoming enmeshed in various ideas of subjectivity through metaphysics. To act as if certain things can be Dasein and others some other thing is to misunderstand both.

>>21022251
You're such a moron I can give you the golden verse and it just whistles through your ear and out the other. I feel good right now, you kneel to me without knowing.

Germany is an insanely cucked country, since they lost the big one the Allies have forced a “culture of remembrance” on the German people so they have to constantly flagellate themselves over the Hollacaust
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Remembrance
Germans are taught to Ben ashamed of their culture an de history they’re not allowed to be proud of Germany’s past or German culture, you’re not allowed to admire Otto von Wilhelm or Schopenhauer or Wagner because hey were bigoted.
DISPLAYING OR WAVING the German flag is heavily frowned upon.
Only Jewish Germans and a few inoffensive ethnic Germans like Goethe or Kant you’re allowed to appreciate, the Allies want to keep Germany as their little bitch in perpetuity

>>21022274
who tf is otto von wilhelm

I assume you are speaking about pre WWII Germany? because if not it's tautological, Germany and its culture died in 1945, modern Germany is populated essentially by lederhosen wearing LARPing anglos

>>21022269
Show me where I'm wrong, using the text, not speaking like an MMO villain.

>>21022274
>Wagner
And that's why there's an entire town dedicated to his music that hosts a huge festival in celebration of it, right?

>>21022269
Stop being a complete retard.

>>21022274
american memes
you dont know anything about this country

>>21022281
Fuck, I mixed up Otto von Bismarck and Kaiser Wilhelm II
>>21022296
You’re not allowed to read, enjoy and especially AGREE with THAT one book he wrote

>>21022296
the poster you replied to is a retarded poltard but i guess they could counter your argumentation with the „eccentrity“ of some of the modern wagner interpretations at bayreuth

>>21022307
>THAT one book he wrote
?

>>21022291
I mock you but the truth is that I am Dasein and you are not. When applied to the common man it is indeed idealism. I have the prerogative and that's what Dasein is.

>>21022307
>Fuck, I mixed up Otto von Bismarck and Kaiser Wilhelm II
it's ok, it further invalidated your already badly written and cringe post

>>21022321
>https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36512501-judaism-in-music

>reading any German literature after the 1930s
Except Arno Schmidt, of course. You should read Arno Schmidt.

>>21022322
You're writing fanfic using Heidegger's words, but you don't understand a single one of them. Notice how you can't articulate what it is you mean? You quote text but can't defend your reading of it? You just keep piling more words on. This act might fool some people but I see right through you.

Turkish Chad from Germany here. Reading German literature gives you guys a very wrong impression of German culture. The great German authors of the past were very rare exceptions and don't represent the culture of Germany in general. The average German is deeply anti-intellectual. In particular the zoomer generation seemingly consists of nothing but braindead tiktok consoomers who don't even speak German anymore but some cringeworthy mix of wrongly pronounced elementary English with some Arabic meme words. My German sister-in-law reacted with outright disgust when I mentioned "Thus spoke Zarathustra". As a university student in her early twenties she doesn't even know who Nietzsche was, but she immediately had to tell me that only freaks or nerds read those useless antiquated books. Then she proceeded to tell me about the newest events in the life of Instagram influencers.

>>21022335
I'm here to be, and you are here to be a slave.

>>21022316
>they could counter your argumentation with the „eccentrity“ of some of the modern wagner interpretations at bayreuth
But that's true of Opera in general wherever it's performed. I've seen some interesting, for lack of a better word, interpretations of Mozart, Handel, and Verdi too.

>>21022338
>The average German is deeply anti-intellectual.
*the average person

>>21022340
i don‘t even hate them.
i’ll might watch that one tannhäuser interpretation with the retard, clown and black drag queen when i have more time again

>>21022353
I don't mind "creative" interpretations of of operas. I've seen plenty of them done to varying levels of success.

>>21021977
Most ethnic germans ate idiots dumber tham your average swabian.

>>21021977
literally because of WW2. they think that anything that was created prior to it may have been tainted. they are not taught to be proud of their heritage and instead to feel guilty. its a mindfuck.

Like obviously it was ww2, op fuckwit
It's clown world, Germans rejecting nationalism are just smarter, for some reason in America where it should be easy af we do not though, I do see it as some ego death thing and people just get used from those.
it is all bait, these subjective issues are just endlessly used for power until you change your mind

>>21021977
German culture is so used to moping that many germans wish they were from or in a country where it wasn't so cliche

>>21021977
>he made it his mission to academically tear down the cultural status of Alfred Döblin by depicting him as a self-hating Jew
can you elaborate on that? I hadn't heard about this.

>reading anything other than Goethe

>>21022672
>tfw you've read anything EXCEPT Goethe

>>21021977
>>21022009
Germany's great men either emigrated, were murdered, or died on the battlefield.

>>21021977
Have you seen their culture.

>>21021977
Pretty sure everyone everywhere hates their own cultural heritage and literature except for the ones who actually should

>>21022009
Bad comment on metaphysics on your end. Heidegger didn't like metaphysics.

>>21026013
He didn't like SUBSTANCE metaphysics that occludes phenomenological access to Dasein and Being

https://www.bitchute.com/video/YMEmv0gZGKol/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqvsEjFAWh8

>>21021977
Don't know if what you claim is true but I wouldn't blame someone for being ashamed of what that Hitler and the Nazis did to further ruin Germany. Nazi sympathizers are lost.

>>21026021
So substance metaphysics is fine if it does not occlude phenomenological access? Might as well just read Guenon in that case because he eclipses Heidegger.

>>21025173
"culture" in general is fake and gay

>>21026026
The worst consequences of Hitler on Germany was from what others did in response.

>>21021977
Nuremberg Regime outlawed anything right of milquetoast, so you have a preponderance of American style shitlibs and shitlib values and status signaling behavior. And if they do engage with Heidegger it is always dishonestly, and with the pretense of 'playing with fire' to 'redeem' the 'salvageable' in his thought. Victors write the history directly into their new subjects minds.

>Why does every German I come across hate their own cultural heritage and literature?
Bonn government is a kindergarten gulag meant to annihilate and oppress the people and its culture.

You can look into the Nuremberg and the Legal system it shows the moral foundation

>>21026141
German culture isn’t far right though. Prussia was the first country in Europe that granted freedom of religion, and all the great German poets and philosophers were humanists and rather left wing for their time. Hell, even Wagner was considered a left wing radicalism by his peers

>>21022227
Post hand mutt

The culture of guilt that was created in post-war Germany, and the fact that their political structure is designed around it. One of the main objectives of the EU was to undermine German nationalism.

>>21022047
Nice to find someone who actually studied philosophy in Germany here.
I've had a big interest in Sloterdijk for the last few years and by now am finished with all his works and listened/attended a few of his lectures. His ontology seems to be very much based on that of Heidegger but it seems correct when you say ontology is out of fashion because he doesn't really do much of it himself.
He is lauded as someone big in German phil. but I wonder if he actually is getting any engagement on the universities? Maybe you can answer that for me.

I'll take a closer look at this >>21022115 post later. Thank you for that.

The real error was not integrating West Germany into the United States. Had the German state been dissolved and folded into the American republic as an overseas territory, Germans would've been able to develop a sense of pride as an important and unique part of America, serving in American civil service, the American military, the American economy, despite the Nazi experiment, rather than a century of guilt for crimes those living did not commit. To be the one not but now Americans that were once wrong but currently right would've been preferable to being the Germans that are eternally wrong.

>>21026734
American pride is worshipping niggers

>>21022112
So they're essentially the same as Dugin?

>>21026743
Your mom worships Niggers too

>>21026732
> He is lauded as someone big in German phil. but I wonder if he actually is getting any engagement on the universities?
Yeah he taught at the university of Karlsruhe until 2017 and before that he was in Vienna I think. He was also part of a philosophical show on German state tv during the 2000s, as well as being a member in numerous foundations.
Besides that, he is very frequently featured in print media
Also, glad to hear that you appreciate my long list of German contemporary philosophers. This thread unfortunately turned into /pol/ memes pretty quickly

>>21026752
>Your mom worships Niggers too

>>21021977
I've never met a german that was even remotely likeable, warm or friendly. I would put them on the same level as russians and the irish.
I have nothing against them, but this is just my experience

>>21026776
I’m German and I agree

>>21026783
I'm not German and I agree.

>>21026743
It's not a matter of American pride, but German-American pride.

Because the Germans have no cultural heritage and everything about their lineage is constructed modern garbage. Which would be fine if they would admit to the tragedy of their culture like the Russians rather than insist on pastoral ideals as though they were French.

>>21026776
Imho Russians are the worst possible iteration of a human being, its unfair to compare Gorms and Irish to them.

>mfw the germans are only superficially cucked and still have enough of their original autism power that they'll flip to some ultraviolent nazism again as soon as the pendulum swings back the other way soon

>>21027441
You do realize France would absolutely rape the Gorms this time around tho, right?
And anyways, France and Germany are the most pro-Russia, or the least anti-Russia country in the area at the moment. Unless the next Anschluss is Germany and France together...?

>>21027441
Do you really believe that they have either the demographics or vitality to make that happen? Keep in mind that Nazi Germany was not so long before a monarchy, and the Nazis had popular support within universities, corporations, and the courts.

>>21027441
> mfw both Slavs armies currently in the midst of a "denazifying operation" against each other have more Nazis on their own sides than the Germans currently have.

They feel more deeply and have felt for much longer what every true Westerner has only begun to feel.

>>21022305
This is how non germans view germany tho #sorry

>>21028400
and what is that?

>>21028633
Not him but read Hugo von Hofmannsthal's “The Written Word as the Spiritual Space of the Nation” (1927) in the collection Hofmannsthal and the Austrian Idea and you will see

>>21028679
I'm going to have to ask you to explain this further. I did not have this in mind when typed that reply.

>>21021977
just realised heidegger looks similar to janacek

>>21026743
holy fuck lmao

>>21026776
Russians are very friendly tho

I can't wait until every Germoid and Eurangutan freezes or starves to death this winter. Feels good living in the greatest nation on the planet. Have fun!

>>21027568
What are you talking about?

>>21029638
>living
Not much longer Ivan. Have fun getting conscripted, a fresh batch of 100 Rheinmetall Maders is on your way

>>21030513
Ukrainians had Azov, Russians had Wagner group. Azov was better known but Wagner were truly the worst pieces of shit, their latest venture before getting fucked in this war was trying (and failing, getting caught in the process) to pin warcrimes on the French troops in Mali. Both heavily larped as Nazis and both got fucked relatively recently.
Biggest irony of the whole war is that as a denazification operation it worked rather well. Just *really* not as intended,

>>21021977
because after grade 5 we learn exclusively about ww2 in history and we're all fucking sick of it.

>>21022115
>Tugenhat and Bieri for analytical philosophy
I'll look into both of these. I have a weird interest in Analytic philosophy done outside of the English speaking world/Austria. It's interesting to see what they bring to it.
I've been really interested in analytic philosophy from France, but it's a shame that so little of it has been translated into English.

>>21022031
Heidegger wasn‘t exposed by Habermas. He was exposed by his antisemitic notebooks which were publicised some ten years ago.
>>21022009
Those are the popular philosophers. It’s obvious that a general audience wouldn’t care for ontology, epistemology, history of philosophy. And what Anglos understand as metaphysics is something else entirely. Philosophy is a German science and the US and UK are probably the only places where it isn’t practised as such, skewing your pov.
>>21022011
… the tv personality…?

>>21022079
Most of the people working at German universities. European academia is different and unlike Anglo academia. That’s all I can tell you without literally laying out biographically that so and so does such and such. Doing cultural, political stuff is frowned upon in German philosophy. It’s basic and involved, has often no depth. German philosophers read everyone.
>>21022112
The only one I know is Han and he’s not even employed as a professor.
Sociology isn’t philosophy. Critical theorists exist everywhere and mostly do not philosophy nowadays.
>>21022114
You don’t know what Dasein is. You haven’t read Heidegger.
>>21022183
Nothing to do with Heidegger. Dasein is just a word he used. If you use it outside the context it looses all meaning. Literally lukewarm IQ my man, go back to int.
>>21022274
>i have never been to Germany and the only people I’ve talked to were right wing teenagers (non germans living in Germany)
>>21022290
Wow
>>21022338
Sounds like a lower class problem
>>21026734
And there we have it. American uneducated cluelessness, even in parody.

>>21031875
>obnoxiously smug but in a stupid clueless way
>autistic and opinionated but in a stupid nearsighted way
>mass replying
>handwaving away every difference of opinion by special pleading and circumstantial ad hominem
Insufferable eurotrash stereotype nigger, the Turk is unironically more German than you

>>21031875
>And what Anglos understand as metaphysics is something else entirely.
Makes sense, I think that's likely what inspired this response >>21026013.

>>21026743
>25 crisis actors paid by Js
>proving anything
What >>21026734 proposes is how functional countries work after great wars. We live in globohomo clown world though and the war was perpetuated by the same "people" who wouldn't benefit from this outcome.

>>21021977
Do you have any idea what the Allies did to Germany after WW2? It was literally years of kidnappings, torture, brainwashing, show trials, and executions. Germans are a horribly-brainwashed people who are suffering under enemy occupation.

>>21031893
lol

>>21032254
Heidegger is commonly called the anti-hegel. but there are many similarities. too many to list here. imo you should read Hegel before reading Heidegger, as a humbling moment, but also to realize how far philosophy has come with Heidegger.
People like to popularize the death of philosophy nowadays and I see why people would say that, but until maybe the 60s and even 70s building on Heidegger, and I'm even counting many of the French philosophers during that time, Philosophy still developed and "progressed", or rather developed different new processes, which had some positive philosophical "value". And in my studies I've not really come upon why people have suddenly stopped referencing all the people who were doing philosophy then (the Heidegger pupils, the philosophical anthropologies and philosophical social anthropologies, the studies following people like Vico, Herder, Scheler, Cassirer, Husserl to some degree even and a personal favorite of mine Gehlen) and have instead taken to studying the ever same texts, turning philosophy into a philosophical history at best, a philology to some degree, linguistics and sociology masking as philosophy (which is as old as the sociologist trying to get the same prestige and respect as a philosophers). It's not like these issues are new, they've persisted in the field for centuries at this point. What happened in the 80s and 90s that we have this clear cut between the last philosophers up to the 70s and everyone else... ever since?

>>21033235
>kidnappings
remember that the cold war essentially started the minute the war ended. what the soviets did had little to with what the americans did.
>torture
proof?
>brainwashing
the anti nazi propaganda was indeed propaganda, but a not insignificant part of German society had been indoctrinated by the Nazis for more than ten years, and the most hardline supporters were in it since the 20s. Remember that Hitler campaigned and was involved in German politics for more than ten years before he got into power. At the end of the war the NSDAP had almost entirely subverted the German state, legal system, executive. Everything in Germany was the party, the party was Germany. The Allies were more infantile in seeing the Germans as evil which had to be righted, that I would sign. The films were very basic, but also directed just as much at the American populace to show them where their money was going, that Germany had to be rebuild, that the German people were shown that they did something wrong or were being mislead.
You can't criticize points like this without outing yourself as far right.
>show trials
do you mean the Nuremberg trials? the trials which established that genocide could be a crime and showed that the Nazis were getting punished after the war for waging said war
>executions
again, are you talking about the SS officers and NSDAP officials, many of the worst ones were pardoned or served only delayed and short terms in prison

>>21033235
How can you be this delusional about the world?

>>21022112
>Byung Chul Han (cultural theory + Heidegger)
This thread is about krauts not fish-heads

>>21033703
>sociology masking as philosophy
Let's not split hairs. There is political and social philosophy is there not? I think what you're more concerned about is the disappearance of serious German metaphysics and epistemology. Im not as versed in German cultural events as I wish I was, but the sudden move to social philosophy might be a projection of other trends in Germany possibly.
>>21033755
>You can't criticize points like this without outing yourself as far right.
Most of those types are ww2 revisionists, and many of them do not think there was a Holocaust. Regardless, I am inclined to say it was a bit much, France after the Napoleonic Wars or the collapse of the Soviet Union I don't think entailed as much propaganda (that is of course unless you want them to move on, which they haven't).

It's really a wonder why every Westerner doesn't hate their culture. Just look at what it's become.

>>21035247
Look up the details of the denazification process and, for example, what you had to do before you could publish a book if you were a writer.

>>21035247
>Statements made by the British and US governments, both before and immediately after Germany's surrender, indicate that the German nation as a whole was to be held responsible for the actions of the Nazi regime, often using the terms "collective guilt" and "collective responsibility".[77] To that end, as the Allies began their post-war denazification efforts, the Psychological Warfare Division (PWD) of Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force undertook a psychological propaganda campaign for the purpose of developing a German sense of collective responsibility.[78] The Public Relations and Information Services Control Group of the British Element (CCG/BE) of the Allied Control Commission for Germany began in 1945 to issue directives to officers in charge of producing newspapers and radio broadcasts for the German population to emphasize "the moral responsibility of all Germans for Nazi crimes".[79] Similarly, among US authorities, such a sense of collective guilt was "considered a prerequisite to any long-term education of the German people".[78] Using the German press, which was under Allied control, as well as posters and pamphlets, a program was conducted to acquaint ordinary Germans with what had taken place in the concentration camps. For example, using posters with images of concentration camp victims coupled to text such as "YOU ARE GUILTY OF THIS!"[80][81] or "These atrocities: your fault!"[Notes 2]

They actually curated the camps to make them look as horrific as possible and then made the citizens tour them while insisting that they were responsible for it, and these sorts of efforts were outlined as a primary objective for the EU to carry on after it's founding. It was literally a state-sponsored psyop to breed generational guilt over crimes the people being targeted did not even commit.

Peter Sloterdijk is the opposite of what OP is describing.

Peter Sloterdijk is the most based philosopher of our time.
>says that Germany should not allow immigrants
>says that German nation and culture should be preserved
>named the Rothschilds and how politicians are their servants
>says that modern psychology is Jewish
>hates Marxism, liberalism, and democracy
>wrote a parody making fun of feminism

>>21036310
based. post links

>>21036310
So another critic stating the obvious? How about some solutions?

>>21036330
>solutions
Ethics of generosity. Building a healthy bubble out of the board. Posting schizoanalytically. Poetry not prose.

>>21036369
agree with the last one at least, but you're sort of failing already if you have to think about it or prescribe it

>>21036508
I also do it. At least, I try to >>21035744 >>21035694
But ignore is why I get. One word:
>hated

>>21033755
You’re a complete faggot desu

>>21029638
Ivan your people are getting fucked in the ass by Ukrainians and you’re gonna be sent to fight in ukraine and you’re going die the second you’re gonna step a foot there but sure worry about the germans “freezing to death”

>>21036540
He could very well be a blue smurf.
This now brings us to an interesting question. The only modern and well trained arm of the Russian army is their online intelligence corp, and it is quite sizeable. Will Putin chose to harm the only effective part of the operation and send his blue smurfs to war, or will maintaining his disinformation arm remain more important?
What a time to live.

>>21036330
The solution is no longer available.
It was for Germany to get over its seething at the French and start a systematic assassination scheme vs the highest ranked anglos/jews of the time, instead of trying the Infernal Columns 2.0.

>>21036514
Yeah, but don't you think it's sort of futile if it has to be a directed active thing and not the organic result of waking consciousness? I don't think medieval poets needed a philosophy that encouraged poetry.

>>21036758
I agree that it cannot be enforced. But at the end of the day I think one shouldn't enforce anything, i.e. moving the center to the periphery. Me just enjoy posting rhymes and I despise philosophy; + my firmest belief is that noble beings shall not quarrel but radiate contagious bursts of joy and through that asserting positivity of the ground. So this: the true philosophy is about generating live love laugh energy unrestrained by law or economy.

they dreaming us bums
scavanging for respect and recognition
while we were just sneeds at the store
observing passing cars, telling anecdotes
'King Chucklemagne', I said
what a dazzling gravitational center
of infinite jouissance: the Midievel aeon never ended
Jan Žižka is a distant relative of Zizek
where does it leave us,..