/lit/ - Literature

American popular culture is the default culture in most of the world

US media and pop culture has penetrated deeper into the world and further than Rome ever did

>>21498171

People say America has no culture because we've produced so much cultural output that the majority of countries have it, making it seem like there was none to begin with

>>21498182
Yes we know the USA exported the Kardashians and niggers worldwide. OP stated "quality" cultural output.

>>21498184

>>21498171
Lmao at calling that shit hole an empire.
They are a republic, and not even an independent one, since they are politically subordinate to Israel and politically and economically subordinate to the mega corporations that pretty much ARE Burgerland itself.
Besides no true empire was so weak as to be unable to defeat weak small countries such as Vietnam and Afghanistan despite being much richer and larger.
Stop shilling your shitty pop politics here, niggerican

>>21498171
They are not an ancient culture.
Japan, China, Greece, Rome, - Heck, most of Europe for that matter - all have such a rich history, they were around for so long, especially in the ages of enlightenment, and therefore contributed far more.
The U.S. was late to the party. If you look at every other country right now, they too are contributing little to nothing as of late. The new culture of the world is pop culture, that is the mass of what is being created now-a-days.

>>21498194
Shots fired. Ameritard btfo

>>21498171
No landed gentry.

>>21498171
What are you talking about? The golden arches and the green statue of liberty are plastered across the globe

>>21498235
/thread
aristocracy is the only good source of arts and sciences because only rich bored aristocrats have the time and money for high-level aesthetics

>>21498171
read Chomsky. unpolished brute military might doesn't have anything to do with culture. the roman army was private, you had to pay for your own equip. Makhaira and aquila standard included. State-issued sandals? forget about it. If you want to fight, you have to have 1) something to fight for memento Romane 2) the means to do it. state armies serve the state, the roman armies served Roma aeterna

>>21498171
What "culture" did Rome produce?

>>21498316
roman letters

>>21498266
Ironically, Mark Fisher got close to saying this in Capitalist Realism, when he described the difference in cultural outputs between the USSR and USA. Of course, he attributed this to the profit motive of capitalism and that they weren't "uplifting", even though the American mass culture is only profitable because it's accessible to the plebs. A truly communist state, without a party elite choosing what music they think can educate illiterate serfs, would be no better than American basedslop.

>>21498197
You know he's right. Stop pretending otherwise, you're not hiding your tears.

>>21498316
Aeneids, Meditations, Cicero's writings
Various classical statues such as the Augustus of Prima Porta
A ton of Architecture, from the Colliseum to Hagia Sophia

>>21498380
>3 noticeble writings
>Statues
>Colloseum(I'll place Hagia Sophia in the Byantium culture group)
That's all for a millennium of existence?

>>21498209
Lol the American empire is the strongest force in human history. Where are you from?

>>21498209
>measures his wealth in dollars
>obsessed with American politics
>obsessed with American movies
>every event in the last 100 years includes primary American involvement
>compares his country to America
>compares his countrymen to Americans
>posts on an American website
>>They’re not an empire guys!!!!!

>>21498380
Not even scratching the surface. Catallus, Horace, Ovid. Numerous playwrights. It’s just people stopped reading them after the onset of Romanticism but before then Roman literature was beloved all over the west

Take a look at this short satire by Lucien
https://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/wl4/wl430.htm

America has a culture.
It’s called freedom.
And if you don’t like it, you’re free to leave.

>>21498474
>mfw in America I have the freedom to dislike freedom and there's nothing you can do about it

>>21498184
/Thread

>>21498171
Honestly, what is the "quality output" of the Roman Empire? Im talking post Princeps, not the Republic.

>>21498501
>muh coloseum where plebs could watch slaves and lions tear each other to pieces
Much culture, wow

>>21498184
I wish I could see current western culture through the eyes of someone born few thousands years later after I die

>>21498501
Post-principate but pre-dominate?
Catullus
Ovid
Juvenal
Propertious
Tibullus
Virgil
Petronius
Lucian
Lucan
Martial
Apuleius

>>21498171
their cultural output is made by blacks and jews, who are tiny minority

>>21498526
I can also list dozens of American names from literature, statecraft, history, etc. We'd still be back to square one, supposing OP is true.

>>21498546
>ask for "quality output' from Principate Rome
>gets answer
You dumb glib nigger, I gave you the names of the Principate's major Roman writers/poets when you asked.

Hart Crane
Frank Stanford
Thomas Wolfe
Charles Olson
TS Eliot
Robert Creeley
Pynchon
Henry Miller
H. Thompson
Frank O’Hara
Herman Melville
Henry James
E. A. Poe
Robert Frost
W. Faulkner
Toni Morrison
Carson McCullers
James Baldwin
John Ashbery
William Carlos Williams
Wallace Stevens
Robert Bly
Tennessee Williams
Marianne Hauser
Philip Roth
Don DeLillo
Robert Duncan
Emerson
Alfred Starr Hamilton
William Gass
Hemingway
Fitzgerald
Marianne Moore
Ezra Pound
Robert Lowell
H.D.
Louis Zukofsky
James Schuyler
flannery o'connor
Truman Capote
PKD
David Markson
Gertrude Stein
Emily Dickinson
George Oppen
Langston Hughes
Anne Sexton
Sylvia Plath
Elizabeth Bishop
Adrienne Rich
James Merrill
James Purdy
John Knowles
William Gaddis
Frederick Exley
Donald Barthelme
Richard Brautigan
Steinbeck
Gabrielle Burton
William Lindsay Gresham
Updike
Upton Sinclair
Malamud
Walter Abish

>>21498474
liberté n'est pas dieu

>>21498583
Literal whos. There's like 3 worthwhile names at best on there and they pale in comparison to historical greats.

I love superheroes movie, these are the equivalent of ancient mythology

>>21498608
>

>>21498583
>Langston Hughes
>American
lol

>>21498615
Post 3 names from that list that are superior or comparable to UK's best 3, Russian best 3, German best 3, French best 3, Spanish best 3, Roman best 3 or Greek best 3. In fact, post 1 (one) name from that list that can make it to any of those countries top 3.

>>21498209
>Besides no true empire was so weak as to be unable to defeat weak small countries such as Vietnam and Afghanistan
would be quality b8 if the average /lit/poster was historically literate enough to even see it

nice try though

>>21498620
What are you getting uppity smug about?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langston_Hughes

If you claim blacks can’t be Americans, or that third generation descendants of immigrants can’t be considered native, you get a “lol” right back at ya

>>21498654
LOL
They can't. Niggers can never be American. Get over it.

>>21498583
>niggers
>kikes
>women
Decent list otherwise.

>>21498194
Plus directly and indirectly every musical genre after 1890, the airplane, the internet, the light bulb, the videogame, the iphone, windows operating system, google, the electric guitar, nuclear war, the aircraft supercarrier, ac power, the windshield wiper, the war in afghanistan, iraq, somalia, lybia, yemen, israel, ukraine, vietnam, korea, burma (myanmar)

All of pozzed bugman culture however is thanks to the UN ESG policies, SDG policies, WEF, and Great Reset.

>>21498209
Anon israel, japan, and england are all US vassal satellite states.

>>21498627
Has beens
Has beens
Has beens
Has beens
Has beens

>>21498490
I have the freedom to kick your ass, you little bitch.

>>21498184
This. If someone doesn't see how americanized the world is they're blind.

>>21498583
Lovecraft, too.

>>21498171
because americans are fat retarded subhumans and america is only allowed to be an 'empire' because it functions essentially as a golem

>>21498692
There's plenty of intangible stuff, that we all take for granted that were invented in the US. Supermarkets, in it's current form were invented in the 50s in the us, yet everyone in every country on the planet now has their own version, and everyone goes there probably muttering to themselves how the US doesn't have any culture.

>>21498627
I'm not who you're arguing with, but I'd love to see your list of
>UK's best 3
>Russian best 3
>German best 3
>French best 3
>Spanish best 3
>Roman best 3
>Greek best 3

>>21498713
You have the freedom to try, punk

I know OP is thinking about 'high culture' as a metric of cultural prowess, but in reality the United States is a cultural juggernaut - it just exports race-to-the-bottom capitalism.
>Brazilians drink more coca-cola than water
>Hitler smuggled Hollywood movies into Germany
>China watches American films
>mcDonalds everywhere
it's shit but it's american
Just think about attire people wear, where do you think that style of dress came from? dress shirts? trousers? All from the US fashion enterprises.

OP makes a lot more sense when you see it for the culture war, as with everything else.
>NOOO WHY HAVE THINGS LE CHANGED!
Grow up

America is not a culture, it is the decaying husk of a nation that survived briefly off the culture of those original settlers, English, Scottish, French, German, Dutch and Irish. Now, as the cultural heritage of the original setters is diluted, the creative spark is reduced by until now it is in danger of being smothered in a dirty, mud-hued tide of envy and hate.

>>21498754
We were fine until The UN paid the CIA to kill Kennedy and then have LBJ pass the immigration act of 1965.

>>21498752
>but in reality the United States is a cultural juggernaut
You're confusing culture with consumption. Because you buy and eat specific things does not mean you have a culture.

>>21498747
You're alright.

>>21498759
Not really, there was no culture it was just humanities default state of work-eat-sleep-repeat. There was no national character or cultural differences. It was just excitement of still being a young country and having frontiers to tame.

>>21498761
Literally all of this was good before the UN made ESG take over investment markets and higher education. Now we are as pozzed as Europe.

>>21498766
Good is irrelevant in this conversation. The poitn was all the US had was watered down culture of the original settlers. And now that is gone and it can not be brought back.

>>21498765
We enshrined western folklore into mythology of the land beginning with the romanticism movement and books like Last of the Mohicans and ending with The Outlaw Josie Wales in 1976.

>>21498766
The US is far more pozzed than Europe on all things.

>>21498761
>Because you buy and eat specific things does not mean you have a culture
Oh yes, everyone on the planet eats shitty fast food. Everyone one the planet watches netflix. Therefore, nobody has a culture?
You're wrong, it's a shitty culture - and it's not a high society producing Faulkners - but it's all exported from the leading power of the west, the US.

>>21498786
>and it's not a high society producing Faulkners
Are you saying the plebeians of the Faulkner's time didn't do dumb shit, and were all the higher caste? What kind of ignorant worldview do you hold...They're not mutually exclusive

>>21498786
>Oh yes, everyone on the planet eats shitty fast food. Everyone one the planet watches netflix. Therefore, nobody has a culture?

It is not a culture. It is the absence of culture, an anti-culture. Everything you described is surface level and largely meaningless in the broader understanding of what a people do when they hold tightly to their culture.

>>21498608
fuck historical greats. The list is good. Not every author needs to be super famous in order to be important and interesting. Most people don't know how great American poetry in particular is

>>21498798
the "surface-level" aspects of culture are most easily commodified, and thus exported.
If an empire could export "eye behaviour" then they might look into that as well, but generally deeper aspects of culture will follow surface level aspects. Sell people televisions, they watch more television. Sell people fast food, they get fat.

1960's sci-fi

>>21498583
>>21498805
>American poetry
Who of those in that list would you recommend, anon? Besides Dickinson and Poe, of course.

>>21498759
This
>You can see why [in the 1920s] American felt our borders were out of control. [The immigration law passed at the time] stated a preference for Northern Europeans] ... [Restrictions on] Southern Catholics and Jews—this went on to 1964, so all through [World War II] there were incredible restrictions. 1965 comes, we’re reluctant leaders of the world, we have an economic boom, we didn’t have much immigration, and we have a ton of guilt. First, about the Holocaust. [Rep.] Manny Celler was voted in in 1923…he was Jewish, from Manhattan. He was warning about the Holocaust, and everybody was ignoring him. In 1947, he was head of the Judiciary Committee, and he was able to get jurisdiction [over immigration] changed from the Labor Committee. He had control over immigration reform. There was a huge attitude change. Exodus had been published. Israel was popular. The other thing was the civil rights movement. Black soldiers were coming back, and there were Jim Crow laws. Those movements drove the 1965 law. Philip Hart, called the conscience of the Senate, was passionate about civil rights. ... They decided to do away with preferences for work skills, and have preferences for family reunification. That’s pretty unique to immigration law—they gave green cards to extended family members.
>“Manny Celler managed to get immigration into the Judiciary committee,” Orchowski told TAC in an interview. “That changed the whole focus on immigration from a labor thing to a justice [thing].”
>Following the conclusion of the war, Celler worked to liberalize American immigration laws. He helped pass a bill that allowed 339,000 Displaced Persons to come to the United States, including many Jews.
>Over the next few decades, he continued to work to liberalize American immigration laws, pushed by Jews and others who were discriminated against by the current system. That culminated with him writing and passing the INA, which is also known the Hart-Celler Immigration Act of 1965.
(http://deborahkalbbooks.blogspot.com/2015/11/q-with-margaret-sands-orchowski.html))

See also
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2018/04/05/the-special-jewish-role-in-passage-of-the-1965-immigration-law-a-reply-to-abraham-miller/

>>21498780
So you guys still have a large Christian population, gun rights, free speech, cheap land, hunting culture, massive wild public lands? Because from what I have seen europe is just born-in-captivity buglife where the zoo animala thank their slavers for having clean cages and stealing 60% of their income to clean the cage while it is illegal to question the holocaust.

>>21498826
Secular poetry is fucking gay bro lmao get a load of this faglord

Go read psalms you homo

>>21498171
>>21498194
>why have they produced so little quality cultural output?
We'll set aside all the great shit we produced, like jazz, rock n roll, the Golden Age of Hollywood, the Golden Age of American literature, the Golden Age of American mathematics back in the 50's and 60's. We'll just set that aside.

Name the quality cultural output of literally anywhere since the turn of the 20th century, especially since the 1970's.

Go ahead, I'll wait to tell you that you have subhuman, shit taste.

>>21498812
>If an empire could export "eye behaviour" then they might look into that as well, but generally deeper aspects of culture will follow surface level aspects
You have missed the point entirely. As you correctly read, you can not export behavior or any number of cultural behaviors, you can only export the destruction of them. This begins first of all with the host nation who is destroying them, you. That is the anti-culture that Americans have. You yourselves have no culture, only a surface level appearance of culture.

>>21498855
We don't have drag queen story hour, nor school shootings, nor literal fucking retards running our nation. At least not all them. Much of what you have said as a positive I agree with, but you completely miss the point in describing these as cultural. These are materialistic things and conditions.

>>21498888
Drag queen story hour is pushed by the WEF and funded as a part of SDG. Do you really think that a puritanical and calvinist nation did that organically? School shootings are based. Anything to get kids out of state school is net positive because ojr education is based on the Prussian model of cannon fodder indoctrination. Thanks europe.

>>21498898
>Anything to get kids out of state school is net positive because ojr education is based on the Prussian model of cannon fodder indoctrination
The Prussian model was based on discipline, service, nation and creed. If your educational system was based on anything remotely Prussia you would have a nation to rival the world. Not the melting pot of turds it has become.

>>21498900
Sorry buddy but I'm an anprim not a fascist. Nation is just slavery. Everything here was better before European culture arrived. Cabeza De Vaca described a paradise.

>>21498888
>You yourselves have no culture, only a surface level appearance of culture.
This is nonsense. Anywhere that there is a decently-sized (how many is debatable) group of people there is a culture, whether you or I find it tasteful or not, and the current American "culture" is a putrid disgrace.

>>21498909
>and the current American "culture" is a putrid disgrace.
Thanks globalism. Thanks state.

>>21498627
Since you didn't bother naming who you believe any of those countries' best three are, presumably because they're so forgettable, I'll just assume you won't mind me doing the same.
Melville, Faulkner, Steinbeck = UK's Best 3: (unknown)
Melville, Faulkner, Steinbeck > Russian best 3: (unknown)
Melville, Faulkner, Steinbeck ≥ German best 3: (unknown)
Melville, Faulkner, Steinbeck > French best 3: (unknown)
Melville, Faulkner, Steinbeck = Spanish best 3: (unknown)
Melville, Faulkner, Steinbeck > Roman best 3: (unknown)
Melville, Faulkner, Steinbeck = Greek best 3: (unknown)

>In fact, post 1 (one) name from that list that can make it to any of those countries top 3.
Impossible, because these are Americans we're talking about. Not Germans, Greeks, or Romans. How could an American make it into another country's top three authors?

>>21498905
Try reading this. It addresses many of the same problems Ted did but about sixty years before he came famous but has a more fitting solution than destroy everything with bombs.

>>21498909
A culture that exports a device that destroys native culture is an anti-culture. It is not a better culture, cultures are built up over time, in part by the ethnic people who make them up and in part by the environment in which they were raised. This is then steered, unintentionally (Kings, Princes, Lords, Knights, Shieks, Imams, etc), by leaders of their community.

America did not do this, it outsources all of these things to the lowest bidder and as a result, international business interests have taken them over. Yours is a plastic culture, artificial and manufactured to fit whatever they chose. Rather than a slow evolution of natural beliefs and values over time.

An anti-culture. Don't get me wrong, there is much about the US that I love, I live here. But to say it has a culture is just factually wrong. You are plastic reproduction, like all the shit you buy from China.

>>21498905
>>21498925
Fuck, wrong pic. This one. My mistake.

>>21498925
It does. You're only seeing the stuff heavily propagated and concluding from the pessimism that it evokes.
>This is then steered, unintentionally (Kings, Princes, Lords, Knights, Shieks, Imams, etc), by leaders of their community.
You don't need any of these specific roles to steer culture. They are far more preferable to democratic ones and something I would have preferred we truly.
>Yours
We are both Americans who lament how America's soul has been perverted. This alone proves there is a common thread of an American culture, moribund as it may be, between us. And don't you dare tell me what my culture is, you cunt.

>>21498987
>You don't need any of these specific roles to steer culture. They are far more preferable to democratic ones and something I would have preferred we truly.
You have missed the point, these were the people that shaped the communities outside of America and the New World. Leaders of a nation always steer communities, that is part of their job. Not always intentionally, an example would be the way Washington set an example in his actions which have been followed by every subsequent leaders. Culture flows downward, everything is typically done in mimicry of the upper class. Otherwise what you have is a flat, level hierarchy like Marxist Communist in which things are decided upon by committee and that always turns out well. Culture does not go from the ground up, it comes from the top down.

>We are both Americans who lament how America's soul has been perverted.
While I have American Citizenship I am loathe, now, to call myself American outside of America. As soon as I am able I will return to the country of my birth in Europe for the better quality of life provided. I am here to make money, which I am doing comfortably and will do until things become untenable. I have been acutely aware of the 'Soul' of American culture, it is dead, not perverted. It died a long time ago when the cities where lost. The cities being the heart of any nations culture.

>>21498171
It's not so much that they dont produce good art/writings, it's that they do not celebrate anything which is truly innovative outside of the technical realm.

>>21498925
>>21499021
>An anti-culture. Don't get me wrong, there is much about the US that I love, I live here. But to say it has a culture is just factually wrong. You are plastic reproduction, like all the shit you buy from China.
>As soon as I am able I will return to the country of my birth in Europe for the better quality of life provided. I am here to make money, which I am doing comfortably and will do until things become untenable.
Let's say you're right. What exactly are you doing here, anon? You're writing about how the culture of the US is actually an "anti-culture". What do we stand to gain from this? You live here, don't you? If you are, then there's something else you could be doing, something to better the country, to plant cultural seeds in American soil. If your argument would be that you have no obligation to do so, because this is not "your" country, then are you not exactly what you claim to hate? You're here not for the betterment of anyone's life but your own. You're here for monetary gain, for profit, clearly not for any love of the country. Why participate in the defilement of the country you mourn for being murdered? You're a dog begging for food scraps at the grave of a man not your owner, long since buried and forgotten. You're here to do what? Dig up his grave and gnaw at his bones for deadened marrow?

>>21499021
>Culture does not go from the ground up, it comes from the top down.
It's symbiotic actually. The aristocracy doesn't make the culture; the material of that culture has to be there beforehand for the aristocracy to refine.
>American citizenship
Am I correct in assuming that you were never born in America? Never American to begin? I disagree wholeheartedly that it is dead and even if it is, it can be revived. Pessimists are worthless anchors, so you have blessing to depart.

>>21499060
huh?

>>21499060
>Let's say you're right.
I am right.

>What exactly are you doing here, anon?
Gaining experience, I have traveled their lands that I may learn their ways.

>You're writing about how the culture of the US is actually an "anti-culture". What do we stand to gain from this?
An awareness that what you have is not good, or desirable. That it may be changed, from the top down to embrace something new, better and not built around consumerism.

>You live here, don't you?
I do.

> If you are, then there's something else you could be doing, something to better the country, to plant cultural seeds in American soil.
Oh most definitely, I do try to. I've held Burns Night's, shared folk songs, folklore and traditions. But the longer I am here, the more slips away. It is not a problem with the people, it is a problem with being away from the cultural hub which spawned them.

>If your argument would be that you have no obligation to do so, because this is not "your" country, then are you not exactly what you claim to hate?
Consumerism, multiculturalism, the complete lack of societal bonds between people of near-ethnic background and the imposition of lesser people over better ones.

>You're here for monetary gain, for profit, clearly not for any love of the country. Why participate in the defilement of the country you mourn for being murdered?
Because I had the chance to come here and there was at the time an idealized view of America being the land of hope and glory, but this turns out to be true only to people who are from terrible, third world counties. To people from equal or even better nations, it represents a great step down in terms of safety, quality of life and culture.

I have made a great many friends here and have loved my time but the American experiment has failed, completely. The freedom you hold so dearly is a fuzzy cloud that prevents you from seeing anything and that you are in a barn, waiting to be used and butchered for the betterment of people who don't care about you. I would dearly love to see America reassert itself as an authoritarian ethno-state, one culture, one people, one nation. This can not happen in an democratic plurality.

>The aristocracy doesn't make the culture; the material of that culture has to be there beforehand for the aristocracy to refine.
It most definitely does, in any system. The only ones in which it comes from the ground up is a Marxist system. Historic traditions that we use now all come from what the Master and the Lord left to the poor, almost every national dish came from the scraps they discarded to the poor, Haggis is a good example. This was then re-absorbed and held as ethno-cultural ideal and made popular and celebrated by the upper class and aristocracy. Other cultural events are based on religion and spiritual practices which the nobility led, or the actions of the upper class like Guy Fawkes Night.

>>21499061
>Am I correct in assuming that you were never born in America? Never American to begin? I disagree wholeheartedly that it is dead and even if it is, it can be revived. Pessimists are worthless anchors, so you have blessing to depart.
Correct. You disagree because you have never known anything but this hellish existence that you endure. With no solidarity, no cultural unity, never known what it is like to walk down a road, older than your entire nation, and wave at families that have cared for this land for generations. I am not a pessimist, I am a realist and an optimist. I have a great hope that America will cast off the malaise they embody and ruthlessly pursue a new nationhood, one that can built new traditions from a single people. This will never happen under your current system, which appears to be getting more stupider by the day. You have know ruling class, no guiding principles, no old families with which to steer the way. It is all based on the the democratic principles,which are horrific.

You are ship with everybody claiming equal share of the rudder, despite not having any idea where to go, and the ship is sinking.

>>21498474
DEAD ASS

>>21498925
>you don't have culture you have anti-culture which isn't a real culture because it destroys other cultures
you're huffing jenkem

If you listen to any music made in the last 100 years, you are consuming american culture

>a fucking nation state producing works of art
consoomer thread, avoid at all costs

>>21498696
No wake up to real life you subhuman amerifaggot retard

>>21499243
Imagine not knowing this basic fact. Israel consumed more pfizer vaccines per capita than Americans did. The UK had a 90% consumption rate of the AstraZenica vaccine. Thanks for the free money, goyim.

>>21498194
Literature
>Moby Dick
>The Great Gatsby
>The Old Man and the Sea
>Blood Meridian
>As I Lay Dying

Cinema
>Citizen Kane
>The Godfather
>The Wizard of Oz
>2001
>Vertigo

Popular Music
>literally invented it

What the fuck are you retards in this thread even talking about? America produces the most media and culture by far and although most of it is garbage it has produced great art, mainly in the 20th century but even today there are modern classics of cinema being made in America.

>>21499317
2001 and its 30 minute opener of men playing silly buggers in chimp suits filtered me

>>21498182
>quality
Ops post wasn't about the "reach" of American media, but it's quality

>>21498736
>supermarket
>culture
Lmaoooooooooo

>>21498658
blacks are as native to the american south as whites

>>21498826
Sorry for the late reply. Who I would recommend of those - apart from Dickinson an Poe as you say?

Walt Whitman
William Carlos Williams
Robert Frost
John Ashbery
Frank O'Hara
Marianne Moore
Wallace Stevens
Charles Olson
Robert Duncan
Louis Zukofsky
Sylvia Plath

and if they weren't mentioned - which I'm not sure about - I would add:

Ezra Pound
T. S. Eliot
Hart Crane
H. D.
Elizabeth Bishop
Robert Creeley

>>21498194
You forgot about Johnny Cash, baby

>>21498171
Look at Rome’s output. No science, no philosophy, just a couple of poets.

>>21499396
by the way Pound, Eliot and Crane should also be at the top of the list. I was just naming the ones I remembered from the list first.

In addition to them that I mentioned:

Allen Ginsberg
James Schuyler
Kenneth Koch
Barbara Guest
Le RoiJones/Amiri Baraka
Diane di Prima
Anne Waldman
Eileen Myles
Susan Howe
Lyn Hejinian
Rae Armantrout
Ron Silliman
Bob Perelman
Charles Bernstein

>>21499317
>even today there are modern classics of cinema being made in America
like?

>>21498171
Because everything they do is subjected to capital and commercialism. If it won't sell and make a profit, it won't be made.

>>21499454
There Will Be Blood, Mulholland Drive, Tree of Life

>>21499454
Avatar: The Way of Water

>>21499317
>Literature
Moby-Dick is the only good book you listed
>Cinema
All shit movies
>Pop music
All shit

>>21499472
first two are good, tree of life is overrated as fuck, and none are equivalent to classic cinema.

>>21499464
This is how poor people think. Anything can be made profitable through proper marketing, thus everything is made.
>>21499481
>Moby-Dick is the only book I've read of the ones you listed.
Thought so.
>I don't watch movies.
That's fine.
>I tend to listen to whatever markets itself as underground, edgy... you know, REAL punk, REAL black metal.
This ties in real nicely with what I said about proper marketing.

>>21499116
>It most definitely does, in any system.
It doesn't. As I said it is symbiotic. Take the Reformation: people chose to convert according to a prince's religion or they chose to leave for a different one. Additionally, why did the Puritans not convert to the Anglican church and instead waged war against its aristocracy and later abandoned their country of origin? Those people chose to form a culture around Puritanism, from top and bottom. And take Shakespeare, unless you believe he was someone who derived his lineage from nobility, he was lower class man who became the English language's most renowned writer. While the nobility may have taken this up and trickled down; he was still lower class, not of the aristocracy. There was a symbiosis there.

>>21499496
>Take the Reformation: people chose to convert according to a prince's religion or they chose to leave for a different one
They followed the Prince and the Lords, or were forced to leave. This would be an example of what I said, the leaders directly or indirectly influencing what happened.

>additionally, why did the Puritans not convert to the Anglican church and instead waged war against its aristocracy and later abandoned their country of origin?
Priests, anon. The Priesthood that separated from the Anglican Church before they departed, they were still led by the same category of leaders. Only here they are one step lower as they are not typically the greater leaders, but the lower ones. There was Aristocracy in the Puritans, many families departed with them over time. These fulfilled the same obligations and duties that leaders in the Old World did, they shaped the Culture.

>And take Shakespeare, unless you believe he was someone who derived his lineage from nobility, he was lower class man who became the English language's most renowned writer. While the nobility may have taken this up and trickled down; he was still lower class, not of the aristocracy.
What are you talking about here? Nothing about this is true. Shakespere was a memeber of the lower aristocracy, he was a member of the land-owning gentry. His family has one of the oldest coat of arms in Britain. He was educated at a comprehensive that taught Latin and received a sterling education. He was not some common pleb blessed with genius and creativity. His father was an Alderman for god's sake, a cursory glance at a Wikipedia page would disprove everything you said.

>There was a symbiosis there.
There is not, there is a headwaters and a river which flows downwards through the castes and groups of people. I am not saying rural traditions and peasants (in the Germanic sense, warrior-peasants) are not unimportant, but they are not the directors of culture, nor the First Movers. They react to what happens above them.

>>21499331
Kubrick is a fucking hack. He never should have been more than a DoP. Great shots, bad movies.

>>21499521
>John Shakespeare worked as a glove-maker, but he also became an important figure in the town of Stratford by fulfilling civic positions. His elevated status meant that he was even more likely to have sent his children, including William, to the local grammar school.
https://www.shakespeare.org.uk/explore-shakespeare/shakespedia/william-shakespeare/william-shakespeare-biography/
A GLOVE MAKER

>>21499481
Bro if you don't like Bill Evans or Willie Nelson you might just be mentally retarded.

>>21499569
To add, he was a middle class commoner, not nobility and William Shakespeare bought his coat of arms.

>>21499569
Check out his mothers side too, they were not humble peasants. His father a skilled professional that curiously did not need his only son to follow in his trade. They were junior aristocracy and local leadeds on one side, and well established gentry on the mothers side.

>>21499317
Don't mind them. Its always Europeans or Aus/NZ tards saying nonsense about Americans. The Asian powers dont have that cultural pissing contest due to the language barrier and independent spheres of art, and they plainly observe the superiority of American cultural contributions relative to the rest of the west. It is not a coincidence American art dominates. It is better.

>>21498474
Yeah thats why we've had so many slaves, prisons and cancel culture

>>21499636
Cancel culture is pushed by UN ESG bullshit.

>>21499521
You're missing the point. People of the lower classes converted and chose to follow those people and die for them and their beliefs; according to you they should have simply been shaped by the prevailing aristocracy. Additionally, without them, the aristocracy has no culture to impress upon people because it first has to be accepted by the lower.
>>21499582
And they weren't aristocracy. They would never have been members of the royal court.

>>21499650
What's ESG?

It's a shitlib/neoliberal/fascist ploy to control the narrative. The UN has zero control over anything but themselves and limited controls over the blue troops

>>21499654
>People of the lower classes converted and chose to follow those people and die for them and their beliefs
As they have done throughout history for charismatic leaders, these were uneducated peasants. They followed people, not virtues or values.

>according to you they should have simply been shaped by the prevailing aristocracy.
Which they were, America was gradually shaped by the bourgeoisie of the new nation, which was largely comprised of the petite-bourgeoisie of the previous one.

>The Aristocracy has no culture to impress upon people because it first has to be accepted by the lower.
Of course it does, the culture in Europe has been developing over centuries, keeping some and discarding others over a vast timescale to create unique European cultures. But all trends came from above and all began with the upper classes/aristocracy, bourgeoisie, landowners, whatever you wish to call them. I do not strictly mean, members of the inner court of the royal family. There is, like in the English tradition, a wide spread nobility that covers most of the country.

>And they weren't aristocracy. They would never have been members of the royal court.
I do not know where you are equating aristocracy with members of the royal court, please tell me where and why you think this. This word has a broader meaning, that of a small elite of a nation. That does not preclude the royal court but does not stop at its edge. The Upper Class is a far better word of it. Only now as we plebianisation of all forms of culture, do we see the fruits of the lowest class. As plebeian culture must meet the broadest of audiences, it must by necessity be of less sophistication to reach the largest audience.

>>21498171
English derived cultures are bad at everything but literature

>>21498474
>Americans are so devoid of culture that they conflate it with freedom

>>21499701
>Honor
>Heiarchy
>Notions of Justice and law
>Aesthetics and beauty
>Enviroment
All these are well established in the culture. British cusine is garbabe, but that is surface level. Go beyond the shallow depths and you will see it is vast and great, and largely a derivitive of Germanic values. Of whom which comprise the majority of the upper class.

>>21499723
Ok, we're talking about actual output rather than moral values - again, Anglophone cultural output outside of literature is BAD. It's not just America. Look at British composers for example - oh wait there's nothing there.

>>21499731
Is there anything in film outside of bong and burgerstans?

>>21499723
Anglos are notoriously terrible at all of those things what the absolute hell are you on about

>>21498583
Glad you didn't put that faggot Hawthorne on the list. As the other anon mentioned, you're missing Lovecraft though.

>>21499377
Culture doesn't just refer to high art. It includes mundane objects, traditions, and institutions

>>21498171
Books are for faggots but beyond that american cultural output has dominated the world in a way that no single nation's ever has in the past. I will start with jazz and see how many art forms it takes for you to drop this stupidity.

>>21499485
>and none are equivalent to classic cinema.
There Will Be Blood was a perfect movie. It is beyond reproach. Aside from that, the majority (not even plurality) of great movies in the last five decades have been american made, written, or directed.

>>21499481
>All shit movies
Compared to what? Just know in advance that I will rightfully call you a pseud if you go the tarkovsky "it's shit if it isn't arthouse" route.

>>21498209
>since they are politically subordinate to Israel
We, along with those stupid limeys, created israel.

>>21498266
Times have changed. Starving artist devotes himself to his craft in hopes he'll make it big and then become a bored aristocrat. They're usually at least middle class to begin with, but whatever, the american system has a big carrot for success and a big stick for failure.

>>21498339
>basedslop
Is this the first new wordfilter in like five years?

>>21498608
>TS Eliot
>Herman Melville
>Poe
>Frost
>Emerson
>Pound
>""""whos""""

When you do things right people won't be sure you've done anything at all

>>21500761
>Starving artist devotes himself to his craft in hopes he'll make it big and then become a bored aristocrat
Believe it or not, there exist people for whom economic success is a side effect of doing what they love, rather than the focus of a materialistic lust for objects and social status.

>>21498209
>Lmao at calling that shit hole an empire.
How is it not an Empire? No, de jure names or ideologies do not count.

>>21500761
No one denies that American cultural output is dominant, we deny that it's any good.

Technological civilization suffocates culture. We basically gave it up for economic efficiency.

Now that efficiency is failing and there seems to be no way to fix it, maybe culture can come back to us one day.

Americans have done more in the culture department than any other country on earth since the 19th century. It just doesn't come in operas and novels so you pretend it doesn't exist, even though the modern equivalent of those is clearly film.

>>21501593
>More to destroy it
In no way does film compare to reading. One is passive and utterly recpetive while the other requires full engagement and focus to find meaning and deeper themes.

You are the anti-culture. You propagate a culture that is the death of culture. You commodify it and in doing to cease to make it a socio/ethno/cultural unit and have now made it an economic unit, which will be made cheaply, packaged and sold at profit.

You do this with everything you touch, even abstract actions like rebellion or love is a commodity and part of the system. They can only be shown with economic displays. Buy this ring to show how much you love them, buy this hate to show how much you hate the system. Literal fucking animals.

>>21501678
Buy this hat

>>21501678
>>21501593
>You are the anti-culture. You propagate a culture that is the death of culture. You commodify it and in doing to cease to make it a socio/ethno/cultural unit and have now made it an economic unit, which will be made cheaply, packaged and sold at profit.
Couldn't have put it better. Americans are demons.
>muh film
Film is not Art. If all Films were destroyed tomorrow nothing of value would have been lost - on the contrary, the world would be better.

there was a golden age of pop music from 1945-2001. then the critics embraced something called poptamism and music became nothing but negro rap and white women whining, so music started to stagnate, just like every other art stagnates once white men are done with it and it gets taken over by white women who have bad taste in everything.

good thing AI is coming along to end this putrid age

>>21501593
The US had a brief heyday in film in the 70‘s riding primarily on artists who retained their old world identity and a few good artists from the 90‘s on. Well, PT Anderson really.

Other than that it‘s been roundly stomped by Europe in various postwar waves and even South/Central America is gaining ground. The only worthwhile Best Picture winner of the last 15 years was by a spic.

....why are the euros so mad?

>>21499713
You're just a bitter europoor practically forced to take our culture. Good goy

>>21501678
>>21501689
Neither of you watched any good films i can tell

>>21498171
we don't make culture, we consume it

>>21501678
maybe your just mad that your culture is boring

>>21501779
everything in europe is steeped in the past, everything about traditional culture is about things that occurred hundreds of years ago, you couldn't sell your ideas to modern audience if you tried.

further, you never analyze the themes of your pictures based on the merits of today, always some antiquated notion of values or morality that you know would make you a laughing stock if you presented them as contemporary.

>>21501689
>Americans are demons
I am not saying that, at all. Most (white) Americans i have met are amongst the most welcoming, hard working and generous people i have ever met. I have travelled more than the average man too.

Their problem is the society they inhabit, it is an economic engine, not a cultural one and so cares nothing for that which can not be bought or sold. If they awaken to this, and i hope dearly they do, a new America can establish a culture and people that has value and that can not be measured by the money-lenders as Roosevelt called them.

This can not happen in a multi-racial, multi-cultural democracy, all of this creates what you have today. It must be one race, one culture, one nation.
Whatever expression it takes, it musr burn away all the old, everything, and create something new and vital.

>>21501767
I don't watch any movies. I will watch comedy panel shows, stand up and documentaries. The rest is goyslop for your brain.

>>21501779
A sterling retort, milord

>>21501784
you have great stories, great tradition, but your stories are all so dated and worn out, and you 'gatekeep' them with the same passion as the most ardent consumer pop culture obsession.

Maybe the world is ready for a more advanced take on the classics than you are willing to admit, and you keep running them through the culture mill trying to breed 'refinement' when your students have already absorbed your lessons, and rejected them.

>>21501790
i'm sorry, i'm not really invested in either side of this debate and just wanted attention.

did i successfully stir the pot?
am i to be punished?

>>21501785
American society is a product of Americans.

>>21501893
It was an experiment in affording ultimate permissiveness and freedom to the greatest number of people. It failed, terribly. People need structure, behavior patterns to follow and the stability that one culture, one people and one value system provide. We did not fully understand this upon America's founding, smart and educated men are capable of self rule, the elite. The rest are not and need direction, duty, obligation and reward. America has shown us this.

America was an experiment, it failed. Even when it was largely white it was not preserving any culture or values, it breaks down and destroys and replaces what it has every few decades. What one (white) group cherishesn, another (non-white) group wants to destroy because it is loved by the former (white) group.

These should be the lessons learned from America.

>>21499351
>"and who the fuck are you to judge that what the people embrace and willingly pay money for is shit? Are you not mr liberal populist democracy guy? Are you not mr subjectivity and mr different folks for different strokes guy? But you are in fact mr hypocrisy guy, who has no more respect for the subhumans than we do — and indeed a lot less (which is why you reflexively hate all "Mane Streem" aspects of culture — i.e. all popular culture itself, which is merely democratic culture — merely the cultural manifestation and ultimate result of your very own democratic principles)."

>>21500510
Well sure in the broad anthropological sense but it's pretty clear in the context of this thread people mean culture in the more narrow sense.
When someone asks what are the best products of American culture they aren't asking for supermarkets..

>people still use "culture" but never, ever define it
>and when they DO attempt to define it, they essentially mean consumer culture

Snore.

>>21501924
>angry at anons not providing definitions
>uses heavily loaded term such as "consumer culture" without providing a definition

Snore.

>>21501924
The material and abstract expressions of an ethnic group on the land and how they navigate it. I think that is a good definition of culture.

This is what is meant by culture, >>21498761. Most people focus on simplistic things like food and dress, these are largerly worthless as all surface level culture can be copiee within minitues of seeing it.

>>21501911
>>"and who the fuck are you to judge that what the people embrace and willingly pay money for is shit? Are you not mr liberal populist democracy guy?
One can support democracy in the political sphere without believing democratic principles should apply in every sphere. There is no necessary contradiction.

The entire world has been overrun by American culture. This thread doesn't make any fucking sense.

>>21498182
>>21498184
fp+sp bp
Earth is America

>>21502607
How does it not make sense? The PROBLEM with the world is that it's been overrun by American culture. American culture is all of the lowest quality in (civilized) world history bar a few novelists.

>>21502838
Quality is subjective, much as I am loathe to admit. That American culture has taken over every country and people around the globe is proof enough to me of its superiority in some sense. The people speak with their feet and with their wallets. It's unironically over.

>>21502891
It's not.
>That American culture has taken over every country and people around the globe is proof enough to me of its superiority in some sense.
This is a degenerate mindset. It is superior only at appealing to the most base impulses of man, which explains its popularity - right-thinking people should utterly reject it.

>>21502891
>That American culture has taken over every country and people around the globe is proof enough to me of its superiority in some sense.

Marxism also spread easily, that does make it true, good or superior. It means people can easily be manipulated by good things, or even the promise of good things.

>>21502891
It spread because of the economic conditions, i.e., the supremacy of the US empire in the world stage. Even if I'm not a Marxist, I will say that something better or superior will take over from the inherent contradictions of the US-led market (mainly from nations states contradicting globalisation).

>>21503024
>does not make it true, good or superior.

Fuck me this talk ro-text stuff.

>>21498463
>>measures his wealth in dollars
>>obsessed with American politics
i dont understand, do americans think this of non-americans?

>>21502919
>>21503024
I am right-leaning.Things can spread purely on the basis of material circumstance >>21503077, but it's ultimately irrelevant. I am not personally qualified to make such judgment. Nor are you. We can deduce the quality of this thing merely by the symptoms of the disease and it's terminal this time. There is something fundamental here and we are fucked. Do not underestimate the Great Satan.

>>21498171
cultural Is for fags

>>21503193
>I am right-leaning
I doubt this, i suspect you are slightly right leaning in that you are just to the right of modern democrats. That is not right-wing on a larger scale.

>We can deduce the quality of this thing merely by the symptoms of the disease and it's terminal this time
What are you talking about? We are able to see the entire process in action, from beginning to end. From commodification and manufacture to retail and consumption. We can see and view all of its affects in real time.

>There is something fundamental here and we are fucked. Do not underestimate the Great Satan.
What does this mean? You have said nothing but empty words. Something has happened, yes. But what makes it fundemental? You have made a vague and obfuscated attempt to be insightful and have failed.

>>21498474
>european
>buy this meme for years
>actually go to america
>security guards everywhere, unbearably strict and anal about everything, not allowed to do anything
>adult, can't by alcohol or enter a bar (20 years old)
>get stopped by police, strictest and most unbearable policemen i have met (granted, i am from western europe, eastern european policemen are probably much worse)
>apparently walking on privately owned land is a crime?

kek

>>21503242
>get stopped by police, strictest and most unbearable policemen i have met (granted, i am from western europe, eastern european policemen are probably much worse)
The US has 40 million nogs living there. Never forget that.

>>21503235
>I doubt this
If your definition of right-wing is something like: "agrees near universally with Schmitt", then I am not that.

>What are you talking about?
As much as I might not like their blue jeans and picture screens, I do not think any individual can really judge "quality" objectively. Our language is limited and quality suggests something subjective. Personally, I like Jack London. I think his novels are well-written and deserved their popularity even though I do not agree with his sometimes negrophilic views? Can that be called quality?
Conversely, all American literature is Judaified, so I would thereby describe all of it as low-quality in certain situations.

>But what makes it fundemental
It's success indicates that there is something deeply rooted.

>>21503250
Just imagine how great things were before they were let off the leash. Pre-WW1 America was certainly no paradise, but it was heading there. America today is a shadow of what it should have become.

>>21503317
If you want a major blackpill look up Victorian-era crime statistics in the US and UK.

>>21503326
Oh it was certainly very bad. I made basically your exact post in another thread just a moment ago, but that was merely a blemish. The overall picture was promising.

>>21503317

>If your definition of right-wing is something like: "agrees near universally with Schmitt", then I am not that.

No, but 'Right Wing' would be agrees with many of his values and the means by which society should be arranged. Undemocratic and with less focus on decision by commitee and building concensus and more with authority and responsibility.

>I do not think any individual can really judge "quality" objectively
Most things can not be, because their are too many variables to measure with terms like good/bad. Beauty? That can easily be measured. Truth? Also can be measured. If this fiction vs that fiction is to be judged it needs to be done in specitic and objective terms, not vague subjective ones like pleasant, enjoyable or fun.

Quality is a vague term, it needs a qualifier. The quality of what? The quality of the exploration of human behavior and psycholpgy? The quality of the dialoge? You compare apples to oranges.

>Personally, I like Jack London. I think his novels are well-written and deserved their popularity even though I do not agree with his sometimes negrophilic views? Can that be called quality?
I like Moorcocks work, deplore is libertarian mindset and his no gods, no masters philosophy he has placed in the works. They are written to my liking but that is not an objective assessment, some things can not be measured objectively but some important things can.

>It's success indicates that there is something deeply rooted.
No, it does not. The entire free market/international market system is hitting crash after crash. It is the most fragile we have ever seen it right now and promises to get weaker. This is not fundemental nor deeply rooted.

Bad take. Except for the Judaized comment, they have installed themselves by chance or design in to many key decision making positions in the creative industries and so have an undue amount of influence over what is released. But, people are waking up to this and i am pleased to see the turn against them.

>>21503399
On a two dimentional political spectrum right wing is anarchy and left is totalitatianism. This narrow field of accepting an overreaching state as a given and then just thinking how do we regulate the slavery with it is so boring. It's like yes we are slaves but how will we be treated? Should we be houseniggers or fieldniggers?

>>21498171
Probably largely due to survivorship bias. Surviving literary works from Ancient Greece were those that people found worth copying over and over and over for more than 2 thousand years. More recently, do you think most English-speaking people could name any English writers from the 1600s aside from Shakespeare and Milton? Maaaybe Francis Bacon?
Most of the chaff of contemporary American culture will be forgotten 5 years from now, much less 100. Fast forward 2000 years and the lasting cultural achievements of the USA will paint the country in a much better light than you or I can see it now.

>>21498627
> UK
> German
> France
> Spanish

Get real. Russian literature is the only decent competitor and Russian literature falls off hard after their top 5 authors. Roman and Greek literature is only notable because it's the foundation of philosophy.

>>21503592
Scripture and mythology > literature

>>21503399
>Undemocratic and with less focus on decision by committee and building consensus and more with authority and responsibility
I support limited (and strongly hierarchical) democracy for the white man.

>Beauty/Truth
I suppose we fundamental disagree then, despite that I suspect we would understand "Beauty" similarly. I do purport to measure these in common argumentation, but there are limits. I really have no standing to decry the person who empathizes greatly with the cast of Maya Angelou books. I will definitely attempt to undermine their attachment to books like hers, but I can't challenge their understanding of truth.

>Quality is a vague term, it needs a qualifier
Strongly agreed, but any sort of "quality" carries an element of subjectivity.

>some things can not be measured objectively but some important things can
I certainly agree with that, but while we can measure precipitation or say that a certain policy is totally useless, quality of any sort is basically subjective. My own subjective take is that "Woke Baby" cannot be said to be quality by any reasonable person, but many aren't reasonable. We must accept that we all live on planet Earth and any sweeping political project requires these people to either do nothing or be removed from power/existence.

>>21503450
>On a two dimensional political spectrum right wing is anarchy and left is totalitarianism
What do you mean by this. I agree that "just thinking how do we regulate the slavery with it is so boring," but "right-wing" definitely does amount to supportive of some sort of hierarchy, even if merely the atomized corporate sort envisioned by Rothbard.

>>21503668
>I support limited (and strongly hierarchical) democracy for the white man.

What would makenit hierarchical? Democracy is horizontal as each person has the same vote, worse still nobody is held accountable.
What prevents the same things that ruined the West from happening again? What you want is originally how every democracy in the West began as. It does not work.

>>21501914
because they are cunts who dont want answers just seek to ridicule

>>21503730
>What would make it hierarchical?
Weighted voting according to lifestyle, family size, perhaps something economic, and an ideological measure.

>Democracy is horizontal as each person has the same vote
Historically, many countries did not accord by that. For a particularly complex example where there was also universal suffrage, see the Austria after the Badeni reforms (not saying I wish to model anything off of Badeni, but he does offer a complicated and thus illuminating example of such a system).

>What prevents the same things that ruined the West from happening again?
Genocide.

>>21503668
>>21503763

Rephrased my poorly worded questions and added another.

>21503668
>I support limited (and strongly hierarchical) democracy for the white man.

What would makenit hierarchical? Democracy is horizontal as each person has the same vote, worse still nobody is held accountable.

What prevents the same things that ruined the West from happening again? What you want is originally how every democracy in the West began as. It does not work.

What makes you sure that the person elected is even qualified and what prevents corruption, back room deals and profiteering?

>>21503668
>What do you mean by this.
I mean if you reduce politics to a 2 dimentional spectrum it is reduced to more or less government. Calling the kissing cousins of fascism to socialism a ***spectrum*** is laughable. It's like calling C# C and Cb the audible spectrum. The common definition is propaganda.

>>21503772
>What makes you sure that the person elected is even qualified and what prevents corruption, back room deals and profiteering?
Establish an absolute minarchy with the push for any growth of the role of government labeled treason and punishable by death. Governments only legitimate role is defense of personal property.

>>21503763
>>21503772
Forgot to address:
>worse still nobody is held accountable
Accountability is a definite shortcoming of any system, but I do not see how a democracy is much worse than an autocracy. An individual autocrat can certainly be killed, but a politically engaged populace can learn and make a society better without disruption.

>What makes you sure that the person elected is even qualified
This tends to be much better in a democracy. Qualifications both academic and otherwise help individuals be elected. In an autocracy, things tend to devolve into power passing in a hereditary fashion or from one partynik to the next.

>what prevents corruption, back room deals and profiteering
Voting people out of office. Beyond that, the Examination and Control Yuans (two additional branches of government) of Taiwan offer a model imo.

>>21503763
>Weighted voting according to lifestyle, family size, perhaps something economic, and an ideological measure.

That is barely vertical, it still results in the same problems. Voting will gradually be opened to more and more people as it is in the elected officials best interest to do so. Democracy is a race to the bottom, every time.

>Historically, many countries did not accord by that. For a particularly complex example where there was also universal suffrage
How do you preclude voting blocs and parties from forming? Again, this results in the same problems that are present in all other democracies. Us vs them. The goal becomes not to serve the people, but beat the other team and look good doing it. Results no longer matter as focus changes to an elaborate PR game.

>Establish an absolute minarchy with the push for any growth of the role of government labeled treason and punishable by death. Governments only legitimate role is defense of personal property.
What a wild position you have. If the only job of government is the protection of human property, what is there to vote on? And what keeps big business in check from ruthless exploitation of the blood and soil of your nation? When big businesses get so much social and economic capital , they can easily exchange this for political capital in their own soil, which could be huge swathes of the nation.

I do not mean to be rude but this has not been thought out at all, it would be worse than what we have now. The idea that some form of Anarcho-Kiddie-Fiddlerism can resolve all the issues is just not true, I invite you to go live in the hood in any US city, that would be the most accurate representation of a minarchist society.

This thread was created by a seething eurofag who is STILL upset about US hegemony.

>>21503798
>politically engaged populace can learn and make a society better without disruption.
This is the role of public education and state media to manufacture consent and make people believe government is legitimate. Government by definition is nothing more than the dominant criminal organization in a given reigon. Mob rule over individual decisions of the criminal organization is no different than any other mob deciding to burn a witch or lynch somebody. There is nothing about 51% of people thinking something that makes it legitimate or objective and in fact considering 50% of people are at least as or more stupid than average, manufacturering this mob via programming is far easier than doing so to a philosopher king.

>>21503775
>I mean if you reduce politics to a 2 dimensional spectrum it is reduced to more or less government
I'm not a libertarian, so I do not do this. I will say that socialism inevitably leads to state domination, but I am not against a strong state properly constituted.

>>21503817
Intelligent people on both the socialist left and libertarian right both believe in anarchy or minarchy. The state is at best the devil you know and a necessary evil. It cannot be good because it is a monopoly over violence. At best it is a necessary and extremely dangerous and treacherous tool.

>>21503798
>how a democracy is much worse than an autocracy. An individual autocrat can certainly be killed, but a politically engaged populace can learn and make a society better without disruption.

A dedicated leadership class, call them nobility or elites or administrator or even Gauleiter. A politically engaged populace only asks for more provisions and things, they care not for anything outside of their sight. The men in the north do not care if the men of the south need a bridge, those in the East do not care if those in the West need new roads. Population is a terrible means to guide public policy.

>This tends to be much better in a democracy. Qualifications both academic and otherwise help individuals be elected. In an autocracy, things tend to devolve into power passing in a hereditary fashion or from one partynik to the next.
I strongly disagree that things are better in a democracy, Empires were built on a meritocracy and the best man finding the best position for his skills. With special old schools erected to train the families of the ruling classes in the government and administration of an Empire or nation.

There are no qualifications for running a nation, there is nothing but specific dedicated training from a dedicated institution who's soul purpose is to train young leaders to replace those in power. The average man on the street is not able to do this, they need to be shaped from birth.

>Voting people out of office. Beyond that, the Examination and Control Yuans (two additional branches of government) of Taiwan offer a model imo.
What if they aren't voted out and one side enjoys what they are doing? This is another pitfall of the democratic system, it falls in to a two party system and then you just have a game of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

>>21503802
>How do you preclude voting blocs and parties from forming?
Banning political parties and not using FPTP will keep thing more civil.

>Us vs them. The goal becomes not to serve the people, but beat the other team and look good doing it.
This is the point of having something like the Taiwanese control Yuan and establishing it properly. Such a system would be strongly hierarchical. Nothing more overt is needed. In fact, lulling the citizen into a false sense of the system will keep them more passive. Autocracy breeds resentment.

>Establish an absolute minarchy with the push for any growth of the role of government labeled treason and punishable by death. Governments only legitimate role is defense of personal property
I did not write this, that was someone else's comment. I agree with your position that it is stupid.

>>21503274
Weird, I just saw them shilling this drug on 60 minutes as well.
I lold when the journo legally was forced to admit that the drug company was a sponsor of the show.
They paid some doctor to come on the show and argue that obesity is all genetics, and has nothing to do with fast food so we should like totally buy these pillies.
What a weird world we live in.
What world.

>>21503845
Or just don't have a state put a gun to your head and rob you and instead just volentarily pay for things that you need.

>>21503857
American children need to be on an ssri, a stimulant, a diet injection, 2 mrna gene therapy anti-common cold injections a year, and hormone blockers by age 12 to be allowed to attend their manditory state-indoctrination programming facility. They must learn the sdg and esg goals by age 7.

>>21503858
>Just trust the free market to fairly agree to prices without any coordination

>>21503873
Yes. That's literally how free markets works and what they do best. All current problems are a result of our quasi-fascistic system of state intervention. From health care to housing literally everything is the governments fault.

>>21503884
No they don't, they work in homogeneous, ethnic communities with high trust and at the local level. When you go beyond the local town all rules are off, nothing matter and there is absolutely no accountability. When you get even higher, to supra-national corporations and entities then all that matters is a race to the bottom to get the cheapest product for the best product. Then, you have the Big Business entities becoming the de-facto government like entities. The human being becomes a commodity, like under Communism, they are a mathematical calculation how many bodies do we need to move to manipulate the economy to our greatest benefit?

>>21503830
>Intelligent people on both the socialist left and libertarian right both believe in anarchy or minarchy
I will not dismiss libertarians out of hand, but I also do not put a lot of stock in your ideology. "Left-libertarians" are downright laughable.

>The state is at best the devil you know and a necessary evil
The state provision of many things is a value-add. Competition in many sectors adds nothing and serves to undermine social unity.

>It cannot be good because it is a monopoly over violence.
Someone needs to hold a monopoly on violence, it just must serve some purpose. NAP doesn't work in the long-run. In a larger or multiracial society, it won't work for five seconds.

>At best it is a necessary and extremely dangerous and treacherous tool
In my opinion, a state can be a very good thing.

>A politically engaged populace only asks for more provisions and things
There should be a channel for the populace to ask for things. Some will understand the natural limits to that while some won't: The white man is a net contributor while nearly everyone else takes.

>The men in the north do not care if the men of the south need a bridge, those in the East do not care if those in the West need new roads. Population is a terrible means to guide public policy.
That is the purpose of education/propaganda and the creation of a sense of national and racial unity. It is only right that a man should care first about his own area and people. The goal is extend his sense of place and self sufficiently.

>Empires were built on a meritocracy and the best man finding the best position for his skills
And then one day Commodus is the sole ruler of the Empire. His tutelage and noble father don't matter. It would take many generations of selective breeding to get anywhere all imo. Noble houses and imperial examinations fail in the end. The state falls and the Huns come in.

>Empires were built on a meritocracy and the best man finding the best position for his skills
Some will be shaped from birth by the school of hard knocks or something more enlightened that would otherwise not be part of the governing track. Many raised from birth will become idle and abuse their power. If properly made, the voting process picks those hallowed few off of the streets and discards such princelings.

>What if they aren't voted out and one side enjoys what they are doing?
In a multi-party system this is less of an issue. The overton window will just shift a bit and new lines will be drawn. If need be, the Control Yuan can step in and diffuse a crisis as a final check.

>>21503857
I lost 70 lbs in a few months and now am around 20 bmi. I tried to get my father to follow me, but he instead sought out a doctor to buy expensive pills. This is how our society works.

>>21503830
>Intelligent people on both the socialist left and libertarian right both believe in anarchy or minarchy
I will not dismiss libertarians out of hand, but I also do not put a lot of stock in your ideology. "Left-libertarians" are downright laughable.

>The state is at best the devil you know and a necessary evil
The state provision of many things is a value-add. Competition in many sectors adds nothing and serves to undermine social unity.

>It cannot be good because it is a monopoly over violence.
Someone needs to hold a monopoly on violence, it just must serve some purpose. NAP doesn't work in the long-run. In a larger or multiracial society, it won't work for five seconds.

>At best it is a necessary and extremely dangerous and treacherous tool
In my opinion, a state can be a very good thing.

>>21503845
>A politically engaged populace only asks for more provisions and things
There should be a channel for the populace to ask for things. Some will understand the natural limits to that while some won't: The white man is a net contributor while nearly everyone else takes.

>The men in the north do not care if the men of the south need a bridge, those in the East do not care if those in the West need new roads. Population is a terrible means to guide public policy.
That is the purpose of education/propaganda and the creation of a sense of national and racial unity. It is only right that a man should care first about his own area and people. The goal is extend his sense of place and self sufficiently.

>Empires were built on a meritocracy and the best man finding the best position for his skills
And then one day Commodus is the sole ruler of the Empire. His tutelage and noble father don't matter. It would take many generations of selective breeding to get anywhere all imo. Noble houses and imperial examinations fail in the end. The state falls and the Huns come in.

>Empires were built on a meritocracy and the best man finding the best position for his skills
Some will be shaped from birth by the school of hard knocks or something more enlightened that would otherwise not be part of the governing track. Many raised from birth will become idle and abuse their power. If properly made, the voting process picks those hallowed few off of the streets and discards such princelings.

>What if they aren't voted out and one side enjoys what they are doing?
In a multi-party system this is less of an issue. The overton window will just shift a bit and new lines will be drawn. If need be, the Control Yuan can step in and diffuse a crisis as a final check.

>>21503897
This is completely incoherent. If somebody is willing to pay for something they will pay the lowest the seller will take. If someone is trying to sell something they will take the highest the buyer will give. Simple as. If something sounds any more complicated than that it is a scam.

>>21501908
So you think because a few races, not even races but bad actors that happen o be in a certain race, were destroying whatever culture you had so you think all of these different ethnic groups are out to hunt you down?

>>21503884
Not every problem is the government's fault, but the American government has certainly made the housing and healthcare situations worse.

Other governments provision healthcare effectively and regulate mixed-zoned communities in a smart way. These are to the one homogeneous or were when these system came into being.

I actually will defend the US housing policy somewhat in light of the negro issue. Suburbs allow for escape and make it hard to live as an itinerant. We may have been able to price blacks out of early-gentrified city centers, but they could have survived easily by begging. The spread-out and car-centric nature of suburbs puts most out of reach. Amenities essential for the homeless would need to be grouped together.
If we were homogeneous, however, none of this would be defensible and we could have structured our built environment to support our own who end up on the streets.

>>21503902
>"Left-libertarians" are downright laughable.
All libertarians are laughable, they ignore that all signs point the idea that men need duty and responsibility. They need a strong and clear hierarchy, and only some men are able to occupy the highest points of this pyramid.

>The state provision of many things is a value-add. Competition in many sectors adds nothing and serves to undermine social unity.
Everybodies conceptualization of the State is different depending on what ideology you follow. Myself I like Schmitt's one that the State is an expression of the will of the native people and their land. That it should be the vanguard of uplifting the people, mentally and physically. It should be encouraging families and supporting them with realpolitik.

>Someone needs to hold a monopoly on violence, it just must serve some purpose. NAP doesn't work in the long-run. In a larger or multiracial society, it won't work for five seconds.
Fully on board with you here,

>In my opinion, a state can be a very good thing.
I agree, but only one that has as it's core a blood and soil ethnic imperitive. Anything else be it economic, a virtue or value, or anything else and it turns in to something else. Without the racial, flesh and blood, connection with the people it can not accomplish it's primary directive.

>There should be a channel for the populace to ask for things. Some will understand the natural limits to that while some won't: The white man is a net contributor while nearly everyone else takes.
Public forums and such are utterly fine. There should always be an open dialogue between the elites and the non-elites. You keep mentioning white man, I am speaking strictly from the perspective of a white/European ethno-state. Anything less and no system can survive.

>And then one day Commodus is the sole ruler of the Empire. His tutelage and noble father don't matter. It would take many generations of selective breeding to get anywhere all imo. Noble houses and imperial examinations fail in the end. The state falls and the Huns come in.
You ignore the early foundations of Rome wherein families banded together to rule justly and autocratically for four hundred years, if not longer. So too did they rule in Greek City-states for centuries. When I say elite families I do not mean a hereditary position, far from it. But a caste of many families with whom leadership is given and they may raise their children as the almost every single past polis has done. With dedicated training, upbringing and values that are conductive to leadership.

The British Empire too was able to rule the greatest empire in the world without too much trouble, was able to administer peace and justice all over. Yet now it remains unable to keep its own streets safe, the correlation is obvious to me.

>>21503918
I have extra income so I buy local mostly and eat a lacto-vegetarian diet. Supply-demand is a rule, but widespread buy-in for an exception can easily undermine even such a simple economic calculus. States are useful for creating these widespread exceptions where it could be socially good.

>>21503906
Social cohesion is enforced by market forces. Women seek stability because there is no state safety nets. Communities build because there are no state safety nets. Families stick together because child-rearing isn't outsourced to state-indoctrination facilities. Literally all loss of social cohesion benefits the state. Two income households? More income tax plus the kid must attend state bugschool to train them to be a consumer slave. No bailouts? A company with shit products actually fucking fails. No telecommunications act? Actual musicial and artistic communities form locally.
>>21503928
Higharchies form in spite of the state not because of them.
>>21503935
Vegwtarianism is mentally retarded and all of our agricultural problems are a result of state intervention from fertilizers to subsidized onions and corn to killing all of the fauna of the plains.

>>21503924
>I actually will defend the US housing policy somewhat in light of the negro issue. Suburbs allow for escape and make it hard to live as an itinerant. We may have been able to price blacks out of early-gentrified city centers, but they could have survived easily by begging. The spread-out and car-centric nature of suburbs puts most out of reach. Amenities essential for the homeless would need to be grouped together.
>If we were homogeneous, however, none of this would be defensible and we could have structured our built environment to support our own who end up on the streets.
Suburbs were invented by a jewish family named the Levitts and they were made possible by a government grant to ex-indentured mercenaries. Suburbs are completely fucking retarded and cities are for bugmen. The suburb housing market is propped up by the federal reserves artifical interest rates. The US has basically unlimmited land. Why the fuck would one of our shitty particle board houses appreciate? Because they keep lowering the interest rates and raising the money supply. A house should depreciate like a car as the rotting piece of pine it is. The land in a suburb is completely fucking useless. You cannot have beef, goats, sheep, chickens. It's completely retarded.

>>21503906
>Some will be shaped from birth by the school of hard knocks or something more enlightened that would otherwise not be part of the governing track. Many raised from birth will become idle and abuse their power. If properly made, the voting process picks those hallowed few off of the streets and discards such princelings.

Strongly disagree with this. A great NCO, a critical position in any modern military, will make a terrible Commissioned Officer. The reason for this is that what makes a great NCO makes a terrible Commissioned Officer and vice versa. A good Sergeant knows people individually, they know names, they know personal details, they lead by example and have a practical hands on knowledge on a great deal of squaddie lore. The Officer on the other hand is concerned with the bigger his training is utterly different to the Sergeants, yet he will rely heavily on the Sergeants and sNCO for a good while after leaving the Factory.

You are correct though, many raised from birth will become idle. Those who do are easily spared and found out in a meritocracy, the British Empire was fond of this. However, rarely will somebody 'from the school of hard knocks' be able to outperform a man who comes from a good background, was raised with the desired traits (Upper class ones as opposed to working class ones).

>In a multi-party system this is less of an issue. The overton window will just shift a bit and new lines will be drawn. If need be, the Control Yuan can step in and diffuse a crisis as a final check.
There are very few multi-party systems, power consolidates in fewer and fewer hands until there is only two parties. The Overton window can easily keep going in the wrong direction, all it takes is popular support and well drawn out campaign to encourage the populous to keep going. The Control Yuan, which I have never heard of before today, can easily be compromised and encourage this. The only reason it does not is because they have a huge enemy on their doorstep and nothing unites two sides like an external enemy threatening invasion. Ukraine is a clear example of this.

>>21503918
I'm sorry anon but I just can't debate with libertarians and anarchists, you are the dumbest, stupidest and most naive people in the whole political space.

>>21503923
I think that in a multi-racial democracy ethnic-blocs become very important, us vs them mentality written large across society. Whatever personal reasons I have, the outcome is clear that whites/Europeans are far better served by removing those who do not meet that criteria out of their land.

>>21503949
>Social cohesion is enforced by market forces.
Then why is Africa a literal heaving hell-hole? There are places that are An-cap central and the places is a literal war-zone. No, socio-cultural forces keep a community cohesive

>Hierarchies form in spite of the state not because of them.
Hierarchies form everywhere, using them in support of an efficient state is the clear option.

>>21503923
Not him, but: when the problem is too widespread, drastic action is needed. We have too many jew and niggers. Drastic action is needed.

>All libertarians are laughable
I consider the right ones slightly more coherent only because their system wouldn't just become the exact opposite of what they imagine in five seconds. Hail to the Boждь!

>Everybodies conceptualization of the State is different depending on what ideology you follow
For sure, agreed. I like Rawls' general framework the best, but obviously disagree with him on just about what makes a thing "just".

>blood and soil ethnic imperitive
Agreed, but I support an expansive definition of common blood and native soil. Nothing else can work in muttmerica founded on conquered Red Indian land. I would also say that a state conscious of race and place does not assure success. If an ethnostate does not deliver increasing prosperity, it should be replaced or reformed into a differently structured ethnostate. Only blood and soil must be a given.

>You ignore the early foundations of Rome
And eventually the kingdom was replaced by something better: the republic, which also lasted a long time. We can learn from the mistakes of the past to ensure a better breed of consuls in our time and have no Caesars to spoil it.

>The British Empire
The crime rate was even higher under By The Grace of God, Her Majesty the Queen, Empress of India, Lady of such and such.

>>21503973
>I'm sorry anon but I just can't debate with libertarians and anarchists, you are the dumbest, stupidest and most naive people in the whole political space.

>>21503973
>>Social cohesion is enforced by market forces.
>Then why is Africa a literal heaving hell-hole? There are places that are An-cap central and the places is a literal war-zone. No, socio-cultural forces keep a community cohesive
Read Cabeza de Vaca. America was an anarchist paradise before Europeans arrived and destroyed absolutely everything. The funniest thing about both fascists like you or communists is your obvious desire for tribalism that you allow to be completely perverted by a gun to your head worship of the state that enslaves you. I'm sure Africa was also great before Europeans got there and introduced states as well.

>>21503994
>America was an anarchist paradise before Europeans arrived and destroyed absolutely everything.
With our wheels and domesticated horses and life expectancy of above 30. It is apt that you use the Native Americans as an argument for anarchy, they were as children to the Europeans, who had Empires, City-States and more. If your ideology was correct they should of been flying those pyramids around like Mhoteb.

>The funniest thing about both fascists like you or communists is your obvious desire for tribalism that you allow to be completely perverted by a gun to your head worship of the state that enslaves you.
Enslaves me to what? After long consideration and thought I have concluded that Fascism, more National-Socialism, is the best way to achieve what it is that I value in life and can safeguard it for the longest time in the face of mounting opposition to me and my way of life.

picrel is cringe as it gets. But, I think accurate.

>>21504012
>With our wheels and domesticated horses and life expectancy of above 30. It is apt that you use the Native Americans as an argument for anarchy, they were as children to the Europeans, who had Empires, City-States and more. If your ideology was correct they should of been flying those pyramids around like Mhoteb.
Horses died off in the Americas in the Younger-Dryas though they evolved in the steppes of North America. Empires are not a good thing. Neither is the wheel. You are bragging about being a born-in-captivity bugman with a zoo keeper to clean your cage. I just wan to hunt all day everyday with my bros.

>>21504012
huge x on your back when you post like that. I'm sure that was really worth it.

>>21504019
>Horses died off in the Americas in the Younger-Dryas though they evolved in the steppes of North America
They had the most idealized conditions for horses, long open plains and lands, yet they managed to butcher them all without domesticating them. On the whole they failed to domesticate any animal larger than a dog, and even that is debatable. Likely dogs just followed them around.

>>21503949
>Women seek stability because there is no state safety nets
They aren't wrong to do so, and white women have their place, regardless of stupid "trad" idealization.

>Literally all loss of social cohesion benefits the state.
Really irrelevant to my position. The state must benefit the people. It usually does given homogeneity. Mutted governments are the problem and aren't reigned in.

>Vegetarianism is mentally retarded and all of our agricultural problems are a result of state intervention from fertilizers to subsidized onions and corn to killing all of the fauna of the plains.
I'm white - I care about animals.

>>21503971
I don't disagree with you, but I can think of some justification in our mutt society.

>>21503973
>Strongly disagree with this
The specifics of a job can be taught, just as they are to a promising enlisted man or a man who seeks a commission. When commissions stopped being hereditary, the officer corps improved greatly around the world.

>There are very few multi-party systems, power consolidates in fewer and fewer hands until there is only two parties
I propose we ban political parties and undermine the ability of informal working groups to form, but two party systems are indeed not always the end result. Look at the nations of the European continent. Other examples like Australia or Sweden show that removing FPTP does not ensure a multiparty system, but a two-party system is not assured.

>The Control Yuan, which I have never heard of before today, can easily be compromised and encourage this
It could be, but it introduces a strong element of meritocracy and hierarchy. Its doors should only be cracked slightly ajar.

>I'm sorry anon but I just can't debate with libertarians and anarchists, you are the dumbest, stupidest and most naive people in the whole political space
Based, but I prefer to engage with them from time to time, personally. I should like to be familiar with their arguments. It's how I knew he might pull out mixed zoning and other urbanist arguments when he brought up housing policy. I've seen that argument a million times before and it usually ends up there, often with criticism of the approval process for development writ-large.

>Then why is Africa a literal heaving hell-hole?
Not him, but not all of Africa is complete hell. Homogeneity and resource abundance can lift even the basest nigger out of his natural condition. See Botswana for a conservative democracy with mineral wealth and a small population. They are still ridden with AIDS even so though. Resources and homogeneity don't keep a monkey's dick in its pants.

>>21504039
There is no evidence that humans are all the horses lmao. Nobody knows why so many megafauna died off from Bison Antiquas to the Short Faced Bear to the 3 megacats from the American Cheetah to the Scimitar Cat. We assume it was the climate catastrophe and the ice age following the younger-dryas impact.

>>21504041
>The specifics of a job can be taught, just as they are to a promising enlisted man or a man who seeks a commission. When commissions stopped being hereditary, the officer corps improved greatly around the world.
Not everybody can be taught every job. Especially ones that have a rare and uncommon temperament needed. For most people, making hard decisions that affect millions are almost impossible to accomplish, it is made easier in the Liberal Tradition because they are not held responsible. Sandhurst, the most prestigious military school we have, men (and sadly women) have to qualify repeatedly to earn a spot. There is a good reason why most average men join the military they go in as general enlisted, regardless of what branch. Every single military has a shortage of Commissioned Officers because it is difficult to attract people to such a difficult position.

>I propose we ban political parties and undermine the ability of informal working groups to form, but two party systems are indeed not always the end result. Look at the nations of the European continent. Other examples like Australia or Sweden show that removing FPTP does not ensure a multiparty system, but a two-party system is not assured.
Your minarchist government is spiraling out of control, this is the problem with them. One issue begets another, which begets another. The problem is entirely solved by removal of the democratic system, when it is removed, issues can be solved once and for all and other ones tackled.

>Not him, but not all of Africa is complete hell. Homogeneity and resource abundance can lift even the basest nigger out of his natural condition.
The vast majority of Africa is a dangerous, hell pit of AIDS, violence and child-rape. Even before our arrival on the continent it was horrific. I grant you it can be beautiful and the most safest places coincide with the highest number of Europeans.

>>21498235
That’s wrong. There was landed gentry. What do you think people like the Roosevelts were? Read de Tocqueville.

>>21504067
If you read first accounts of European explorers of the Americas, Africa, and PI they were all great until Europeans ruined them.

>>21504079
Don't lie, you nigger.

>>21504073
>Descended from does not equal being
You are no doubt descended from earlier hominids, you are not a Sahelanthropus

>>21504089
Literally read a book. Lewis and Clark stab a wolf just because they could.

>>21503994
>America was an anarchist paradise before Europeans arrived and destroyed absolutely everything
I studied the Red man a lot in college (Indigenous History was my UG minor). There was a lot about pre-contact NA that was noble, but that is a stretch.

>I'm sure Africa was also great before Europeans got there and introduced states as well
Lmao. Study history. Only the Sahel and Niger Delta states were decent, and they were Slave Empires. Most of Africa was disease-ridden and Tsetse Fly + Mosquito Malaria infested hell.

>>21504019
>Neither is the wheel
I hate lolberts so much. Non-reader take.

>>21504067
>Not everybody can be taught every job.
This whole bit is why I support institutions like Sandhurst, West Point, etc. Only a small percentage of both the elite and general populations are cut out for it. Broader access means more who are cut out have a shot.

>removal of the democratic system
How do you intend to ensure state stability and the lack of popular resentment?

>I grant you it can be beautiful and the most safest places coincide with the highest number of Europeans.
Gone with the wind, and never to return.

>>21504140
>the Sahel and Niger Delta states were decent, and they were Slave Empires. Most of Africa was disease-ridden and Tsetse Fly + Mosquito Malaria infested hell.
>states
>malaria
Bro I just want to hunt all day with my boys and the negro has resistance to malaria. Literally not a problem.

>>21504119
The white man's state civilization brought on longer lifespans and a higher quality of life than that enjoyed under Indian rule. Just about any conquering people would have caused ecological panic, including if things went the other way. The tradition of plucking Eagle feathers thrice only existed among some of the plains tribes. Many just killed the birds. Such destruction is part-and-parcel.

>>21501472
Sure, but the desire to make it big is much greater in the united states where both the carrot and the stick are so big. Very, very, VERY few talented people who "make it" are so far above material and social concerns that they're affected by neither. 99.9% of them become at least a little more in the vein of the bored aristocrat once they have wealth and recognition. Bucket Head and to some degree Frank Zappa are like two of the only exceptions I can think of.

>>21504152
What if like we just got to enjoy hunting all day instead of gay bullshit like jobs.

>>21504151
>states
In the Niger Delta they were states, a few of them even evolved beyond the proto-state.
The Sahel states were definitely states. Some were quite well organized and complex.

>malaria
The sickle-cell nigger also suffer because of his condition. Negro you would hunt for an hour and then run out of breath and need to rest.

>>21504157
Jobs will ensure greater access to leisure activities like modern hunting. It also won't be a life-or-death thing for the human hunter.

>>21504119
I have no doubt the lands of Africa and North America were beautiful and bountiful to behold. That does not mean the people are anything but barely sentient.

>>21504170
Nah that's gay.

>>21498171
Read Spengler

>>21504174
The Red man was noble, if uncivilized. Personally, I think he should have his reservations or even a state and be allowed to continue on with his culture, even if he cannot carry on with building civilization. My heart bleeds.

>>21504174
>>21504174
>not mean the people are anything but barely sentient.
Based. Imagine thinking in nature metaphor and being completely in tune with your peoples mythology in the day to day instead of this koyaanisqatsi bullshit.

>>21504140
>This whole bit is why I support institutions like Sandhurst, West Point, etc. Only a small percentage of both the elite and general populations are cut out for it. Broader access means more who are cut out have a shot.
Fully agree, the idea that the upper class and the lower class should be seperated by anything but ability is against everything I believe in. For an elite to stay viable they must recruit the best from the lower class and eject those in the elite that does not perform. This is paraphrased straight from Darré.

>How do you intend to ensure state stability and the lack of popular resentment?
By continual improvement of the people and the land. Blut und boden, Blood & Soil. People do not protest a job, a duty and an obligation. They protest when they receive inadequate reward for their trouble or see no gain in performing it. Give them them incentives and abilities to be healthy, remove that which is unhealthy (Fastfood, mass media, politics) and things will begin to improve. If the ruling class proves unable to successfully lead and navigate a nation then it proves its is nonviable. That said, I believe it would be if it had the homogeneous community it needs to begin.

>Gone with the wind, and never to return.
I firmly think it will return, at least in Europe. The crisis' they are facing day after day, in all major cities can not continue much longer. They can no longer hide that everything they have striven for has failed.

>>21504185
I refuse to consider people noble if they failed to discover the wheel. They may have been pleasant to watch, like animals in the zoo, but they are far from noble.

>>21503317
>If your definition of right-wing is something like: "agrees near universally with Schmitt", then I am not that.
kill yourself

>>21504203
>inadequate reward for their trouble or see no gain in performing it
Totally agree, but this not enough. Subpar economic growth is a very recent thing in the west and we have still had revolutions, even in times of relative economic prosperity. You need to trick the people in some way. I propose a democracy with elitist additional branches of government and specific controls + propaganda. Do you only intend to get them to buy in with propaganda?

>I refuse to consider people noble if they failed to discover the wheel
Fair enough, but I'd like to be able to keep watching them in some capacity. They actually dindu nuffin except be weak.

>>21504246
>They actually dindu nuffin except be weak.
They would have been fine without the biological warfare killing off 90% of them.

>>21504203
>I refuse to consider people noble if they failed to discover the wheel.
I guess you'd consider Africans to be more noble than Native Americans? Seeing as Africans discovered the wheel, only they chose not to make use of it for travel because it was pointless in their environment.

>>21504263
I don't get what the point of a wheel would be without horses.

>>21504246
>Subpar economic growth is a very recent thing in the west and we have still had revolutions, even in times of relative economic prosperity.
My problem with this thinking is that everything is reduced to an economic problem, when in fact if most people's needs are taken care of locally, they are able to support themselves, a home and a family by their labor they won't ever have reason to revolt. All that needs be done is bind them together in a Völkische Bewegun, a Folk Movement that can provide community, events and levity, around which they can coordinate their social lives. The firm pursuit of economic matters is detrimental to this, not that a functioning economy is important but a system based on consumption and infinite growth is always going to become danger.

>You need to trick the people in some way. I propose a democracy with elitist additional branches of government and specific controls + propaganda .Do you only intend to get them to buy in with propaganda?
We have existed for centuries, thousands of years without propaganda, if you do not count bread and circuses. I propose you judge the validity of a Government by its ability to govern without coercion. If the government is able to resolve disputes, encourage the continued welfare of those within he State it has justified sovereignty. The government supports the people and because ultimately it is there to support the growth of the native people and the improvement of their land. The State does not exist to provide a higher economic value to them, nor provide all of their wants.

>I guess you'd consider Africans to be more noble than Native Americans?
Sure, if that helps you. Personally I have no time for either of them. So long as they remain way the fuck over there, away from Europe.

>>21504273
A hand-drawn cart you fucking window licker.

>>21504289
For what exactly lol grains? Bruh we have unlimited meat everywhere.

>>21503616
shitty scripture and two dimensional mythology isn't even fit to wipe the shit from my ass crack

>>21499454
Once Upon A Time in Hollywood

>>21504394
Post wrist, gayboy.

>>21498929
Thank you for this. Why this place, while not remotely as good as it was 7-8 years ago, still has value.

>>21504554
This is a quote by a man who inspired the world-view of the author.

>>21498171
We invented wrestling.

https://youtu.be/x24d0ABXeTM

>>21503903
Everything is commercialized. Don't take the hard route, dieting or exercise, just indefinitely take this pill instead. Don't mind the side-effects btw.
The absolute worst thing about the segment was they tried to market their pillies as some kind of progressive social justice activism: obese people are super discriminated against / stigmatized .... it's just like being a minority.
While at the same time, completely denying the reality that this is a contrived epidemic, one manufactured by companies making a profit, and one they themselves are profiting from by selling pills to people.
It's a completely ludicrous claim too, that obesity is purely genetic, while ignoring the reality that it's a uniquely American issue. It's genetic but other countries aren't suffering from it any where near to the same extent, so it can't really be mainly genetic..
So much bullshit passed off as science in mainstream media, just to peddle shit to people.