/lit/ - Literature

the bible

>>21872203
I can’t stop laughing about how she got cancelled by young feminists for her opinions on trans and made an essay crying about how they “betrayed” her

>>21872203
>Chimp Amanda

>>21872279
>"So somebody who looks like my brother -- he says, 'I'm a woman,' and walks into the women's bathroom, and a woman goes, 'You're not supposed to be here,' and she's transphobic?" she continued.
kek, how many of them has this happened to now? It's so funny watching women especially try to navigate it because women think in "emotion language" not in logic, so they keep saying mushmouthed half-statements in the vain hope that the highly autistic highly male transvestites will let them pass

>w: I mean I just think like if I say transwomen are transwomen like why are you attacking me we are friends we can get along I mean I just don't like I don't um I don't understand why we can't just get along like we're all on the same side here can we just be friends?
>t: SAY I'M A WOMAN OR DIE
Ironically it epitomizes the whole difference between women and men, their brains really ARE totally different

>>21872203
Pic related coupled with robust bank account will enable the most chuds to break free from the cagie wagie slavery and retire off the grid innawoods with harem of trad and fertile waifus and start saving white race by performing vigorous fricton movements inside their virgin vulvas on the bed sprinkled with krugerrands and 9mm FMJ ammunition.

>>21872279
she is an evil nigerian lady who follows her culture instead of 21st century fictions about sex and gender, how fucking dare she

>>21872948
Ahh, I see you too have read the great philosophical works by Saint Rodger of Elliot.

I know this thread was obviously posted sarcastically, and I know this is almost certainly futile to ask on post-2015 4chan of all places, but as a progressive liberal what are some resources to help dechudify people? it seems like the only two poles in the "alt-internet" are right-wing reactionary (or worse) and marxist. there needs to be more space for the social progressive + economic moderate-centrist

>>21873842
TS Eliot, Notes Towards a Definition of Culture

>>21873842
If they could correct their own thinking, they wouldn't be like this. People polarize because they can't process the information they're already getting correctly. The camps they fall into allow them to fit everything into one big superficially coherent theory about who is to blame for their unhappiness. Nuanced stances are for pawns of the opposition.

>>21872330
I dont know what your point is.
Also I don't know if a majority of women really dig the the "transwomen are women" thing, I talk to some of my female friends and privately they think it's ridiculous, but you can't say anything about it publicly or you're fucking done for. The only women who are for it are the kind who are brainwashed to bow down and let themselves get walked over. "Women think in emotion" is retardedly, most women are fully aware this shit is dumb and irrational, but you can't say shit about it. Of course you can't "feel like a woman" being a woman doesn't feel like anything.

>Ironically it epitomizes the whole difference between women and men, their brains really ARE totally different
Not untrue. I don't feel like arguing but sure. This is why transwomen tend to act like men (if you've met them its so glaringly obvious, they don't think like women)

>>21873842
The only way to dechud someone is to offer a vision of masculine racial harmony. Like theose buddy cop movies from the 90s where a black and white guy pair up and do something dangerous. That sort of thing where its seen as like mutual goodwill and just treating people as individuals and whatever.

As far as women go it's a bit more complicated but some kind of "men and women are complementary and each have their strengths" is probably as far as you can go.

And in terms of economy idk welfare capitalism of some sort I guess.

Before the 2010s most guys who are now far right had something like the above set of beliefs

>>21873842
i loathe you and your demonic ideology but convince them to take the fukuyama-pill

>>21873899
I have a family member who is really into the transgender thing. She's a feminist. I've talked to her a bit about it and she doesn't really have a coherent model of it, she just sees people "being mean'" to them and doesnt like it. She thinks I'm some sort of libertarian because I have a "dark view of humanity" lmao. Shes also communist and sometimes I try to point out to her why its incoherent. We eventually got to "there will be administrative groups" and when I asked her who decides who gets to be in the administrative groups she actually appeared to enter a think. So that was some progress maybe

>>21873923
I'm curious, by "demonic" do you mean you're religious and think it's literally demonic, or is it metaphorical?

>>21873937
>she just sees people "being mean'" to them and doesnt like it
this sounds like a dimwit/midwit/topwit sort of thing. she's absolutely in the right.

(unfortunate that she's a communist, though. she may be one of the more tribalism-induced bluepilleds)

>>21873899
>Of course you can't "feel like a woman" being a woman doesn't feel like anything.
of course; all reasonable/non-twitterbrained trans women are very aware of this. you can talk to hundreds of them on this very site and maybe even this board to understand their full perspective. i'm not one myself but i'm friends with many and find it all pretty fascinating

>>21873877
>>21873883
>>21873913
thank you anons for the interesting and practical posts. these are good perspectives

>And in terms of economy idk welfare capitalism of some sort I guess.
that's essentially my own position, though I also don't necessarily care that strongly about someone's broad economic philosophy one way or another. I just am trying to escape the "alt-right vs. marxist" bipole, partly because I'm basically anti-marxist myself (though I can potentially get along with reasonable democratic socialists) and partly because I feel like a lot of right-wingers have an instinctive repulsive reaction to this sort of thing since they often assume anyone left-of-center is a communist or cryptocommunist. though, with the current culture war status quo, I suppose they may be far more repulsed by social progressivism (e.g. my pro-trans position being seen as demonic) than anything else, so maybe this is a moot point anyway

>>21873988
metaphorically. also to the other guy because i'm too lazy to respond, i don't see how Eliot would persuade people to become liberals

>>21873899
The overwhelming majority of people who support transgenderism are women. It's not even close either.

>>21872203
>Chimichanga Gyoza Ceviche

>>21873988
Shes just really conformist but in the typical way where leftists think they're not conforming. Shes very anxious and the idea of someone thinking shes racist or whatever probably gives her a panic attack. Intellectually shes pretty smart though, did exceptionally well academically both in sciences and humanities, though a lot of this was down to extremely high work ethic.

She actually will talk to me about politics even knowing I'm way off the leftist reservation so that is better than a lot of these types. Im also very subtle about how I talk about it though, I never use any buzzwords irl, I always describe things as absolutely concretely and specifically as possible, which tends to avoid people's alarm bells

>>21872203
If everyone should be a feminist, then it holds that everyone should be a masculist as well

>>21874021
yeah, my "people" are the liberals who came to that position independently and aren't just one by default due to social conformance. people like that are tiresome to deal with. I'll take a right-wing redditor or left-wing 4channer over the inverse any day

>I always describe things as absolutely concretely and specifically as possible, which tends to avoid people's alarm bells
this is precisely what I do when speaking to right-wingers as well. one can get a lot farther by avoiding landmine words and anything typically considered as tribally charged. in addition to them being less likely to put their guard up, you skip over endless debates about definitions ("racism", "sexism", "feminism", "incel", "are trans women women", "social construct", "sex is [whatever]")

>>21874071
You're a leftist? What is your model of the stateless, classless society if you dont mind me asking. We can try to be minimally aggressive lol

>>21874084
no, I'm not; at least not by any leftist's definition. (I imagine most right-wingers would call it leftist, but no self-identifying leftists would.) see my position here: >>21873842, >>21873988

I'm a standard progressive anti-marxist capitalistic moderate social democrat liberal

>>21874101
So capitalism but you want a fairly large government with many social programs and so on? And I assume you're good with the federal reserve? What about the civil rights stuff, discrimination and affirmative action etc? Where do you stand on mass immigration?

>>21874112
What sort of revelation are you trying to fish out of this guy?

>>21873842
Your ideology is the current ruling one, as long as life keeps degenerating morally and getting worse financially your not going to convince anyone vaguely intelligent of anything. If you're a true believer I assume you are either in denial of this or think that we are just in a slump right now and the utopia promised to us in the 20th century will come true any day now, so from your perspective you don't have to do anything, either this experiment succeeds and you're already in power or it fails and its irrelevant what you do. I hate to give life advice to someone I would like to see a in a guillotine but you should really just not waste your time arguing with spergs on the internet, thats for dissidents, just live your life and be happy bro.

>your not
/lit/

>>21873937
I mean don't blame her, at the end of the day she just wants to be a good person and if the media is constantly spamming her with "This is what it means to be a good person", she won't question it because questioning it also means taking off the "good person" hat. I think a lot of people end up getting out of it on their own though because the "good person" hat just keeps getting more specific and extreme, and once you disagree with one thing and get kicked out of the "in" group you start to question everything. I used to be full-hardcore lefty until the covid thing where they were talking about forced vaccination based on shaky and obscured data, and my good person hat fell off and I started to look critically at everything I was taught to believe. I've never talked someone into flipping but most of the time I've seen people just eventually flip on their own.

>>21873988
Then why do they do it? I guess if you want to visually look like a woman I really don't have a problem with that, but at the end of the day it's a little offensive to dress like a woman and claim you ACTUALLY are one. I don't know if the non-twitter ones do that. That's just where I draw the line, unless you want to change the definition of what it means to be a woman, then its obviously not true. my womanhood to me is just what the reproduction method my body happens to have. I don't really think about it outside of that, besides maybe certain other societal expectations like make-up and clothes, but it's more like I feel compelled to wear/dress that way rather than actually wanting to. On the common day to day it's about as much of my identity and personality as being right handed. I wouldn't mind a man dressing as a woman if that's what he wants to do, but there's definitely a line it crosses where it gets kind of offensive.

>>21874114
I just want to know his position because he seems reasonable and well intentioned.

I am not an extremist about politics, I dont mind having a society which is way less than ideal. I don't really believe in ideals, but my approximate ideal society would be something more like feudalism. But if we have to live in 1990s american capitalism I'm not going to cry about that either, I don't think it's that big a deal. Communism though I really dont like and would very much prefer to not live in. It wouldnt be literally the end of the world, but I really dont want that to happen.

>>21874112
>So capitalism but you want a fairly large government with many social programs and so on?
kind of, yeah. I'm extremely skeptical of government and government efficacy in general, and yet I believe it's extremely important to provide for people and reduce poverty. "raise the floor, disregard the ceiling" (whereas marxists are more the "crunch the ceiling as far down as possible" type.) there are fucktons of people in this country who put off going to the doctor or hospital for months or years because they can't afford it, and I just think that's unacceptable. I know public healthcare systems in other countries sometimes suck, but the status quo is even worse for so many people

>And I assume you're good with the federal reserve?
I don't have very strong or particularly well-informed opinions on economics/monetary policy in general. I'm relatively agnostic and open. as far as I can tell the federal reserve has helped prevent catastrophe several times and is generally a useful institution, even if it has just as much potential to hurt as to help, but I could be wrong

>What about the civil rights stuff, discrimination and affirmative action etc?
I'm a staunch social progressive and very pro-civil rights and anti-discrimination and anti-bigotry in general. I'm skeptical of and generally opposed to affirmative action and any kind of racial discrimination of that sort (quotas, etc.) since I consider it unfair, but, on the same token of fairness, I'm in favor of slavery reparations and consider it a vast class action lawsuit against the federal government with the goal of compensating the families of those who were falsely imprisoned, just as many falsely imprisoned people receive such compensation through lawsuits today

>Where do you stand on mass immigration?
I will answer this in more depth later since this is a very tricky, controversial, and emotionally charged subject. for now, I'll just say I definitely don't support immigration implemented with the intent done to drive down wages, e.g. to import people from poor countries and pay them a pittance while firing existing workers. otherwise, broadly speaking, I am fine with immigrants who, in my view, believe in western values, respect american culture, and mostly assimilate. I also don't ever judge people by their birth nationality or ethnicity.

>>21874120
>Your ideology is the current ruling one
by certain metrics (some mainstream media outlets and many universities), yes; by others, no. but, as mentioned, there are those who come to it independently and those who are just saturated in it and accept it as a default. Moldbug speaks of "universalism" - I am a universalist (i.e. a humanist and democratist) clergyman who converted in adulthood, while most of the rest were raised in it from childhood

>as long as life keeps degenerating morally and getting worse financially
I can't take anyone seriously if they're unironically using a word like "degenerating" / "degeneracy". this is a thought-terminating cliche that means "anything I don't like or that doesn't conform to my subjective aesthetics"

>your not going to convince anyone vaguely intelligent of anything
kek

>thats for dissidents
I consider myself a "dissident progressive" in some ways. there are many others like me, here and elsewhere. dissident right-wingers are a very different thing entirely, sure, but the general idea will bear more fruit than you may initially understand or anticipate

>>21874182
>m skeptical of and generally opposed to affirmative action and any kind of racial discrimination of that sort (quotas, etc.) since I consider it unfair, but, on the same token of fairness
The civil rights act and ensuing legislation was mostly about affirmative action
>slavery reparations
I get the rationale for this and somewhat agree but it wouldnt actually solve racial disparities.

I still respect your position though. I don't mean to be condescending because I consider that disgusting, but I think you're wrong about several of your prior level beliefs, I cant not say that. But you clearly arent an asshole and dont want people to suffer so as far as I'm concerned you're on the same general side as me.

>>21873842
>social progressive + economic moderate-centrist
What does a neocon want here? Go send death threats to Glen Greenwald and Paul Gottfried.
Are you the tranny that dresses like Taylor Swift on /tttt/?

>>21873988
>my pro-trans position

>>21872203
>we should all be feminists
I can’t breed

>>21874127
>Then why do they do it?
this is a very complex topic that I'm not necessarily fully equipped to handle, especially since I'm not trans myself. you can talk to a lot of articulate trans people in /lgbt/ to learn more about this subject

>I guess if you want to visually look like a woman I really don't have a problem with that
my understanding, from the people I'm talked to, is that "physical dysphoria" tends to be much stronger than "social dysphoria". they're primarily interested in getting access to HRT and altering their body and often gain a lot of relief from this

>it's a little offensive to dress like a woman and claim you ACTUALLY are one
while some trans women may behave or seem to behave this way, and some cis women interpret it this way, I think broadly speaking this is not what's going on. there are many different levels of this - some "womanfacing" with bad or perhaps sexist intentions, some doing it completely inadvertently and with completely benign intentions, and many, in my opinion, not doing it at all and attempting not to come across that way at all

>my womanhood to me is just what the reproduction method my body happens to have. I don't really think about it outside of that
I mostly feel a similar way about being of male sex. I will say I think one important component is that, at least of the trans people I know, what they experience is much better described as "sex dysphoria" rather than "gender dysphoria". HRT, while of course not capable of altering gametic or chromosomal sex, does alter the behavior and activity of a high percentage of cells in the body to be much more similar to the opposite sex's, including in a large percentage of neurons and glial cells in the brain. if someone purely and simply had gender dysphoria, they'd I think likely be fine just dressing differently

>>21874200
>The civil rights act and ensuing legislation was mostly about affirmative action
was it? I thought it was, at least initially, mostly about anti-discrimination laws for the workplace etc., and prevention of race-based voting discrimination and suppression. I don't know exactly what proportion of it concerned things like affirmative action. perhaps I'm wrong

either way, I think affirmative action typically has good underlying intentions but I am very wary of any kind of race-based (or sex-based or pretty much any) discrimination and can think of, and have seen, many different ways it could go poorly, both for minority and majority groups

>I get the rationale for this and somewhat agree but it wouldnt actually solve racial disparities.
it certainly wouldn't, but it could potentially be one step in that direction. it's certainly a complex issue, though, in part because it happened so long ago and no one alive in america today was a victim or perpetrator of true slavery

>>21874214
>Are you the tranny that dresses like Taylor Swift on /tttt/?
nope. she (?) is just a cross-dresser, not trans. (she openly self-identifies solely as a man - just a cross-dressing one. doesn't take hormones, etc.) I think she's a libertarian while I'm pretty much a social democrat. I think "economic moderate-centrist" is compatible with "social democrat". probably. but, again, I am also somewhat agnostic when it comes to economic policies and systems. it's more of a broad moral and philosophical view than anything else. that said, I largely agree with her anti-marxism stances

>>21874249
>anti-discrimination laws for the workplace
It's the same thing. They outlawed iq tests because they discriminated. But I feel almost bad saying this to someone like you

>>21874259
I don't know exactly what the laws may have been in the past, but from what I understand it's not illegal to give IQ tests to job candidates today

>>21872279
100% think that this is what started the "terf" movement

>>21874265
Honestly man I don't think you should look into any of this if you want to remain a centrist. If you really want I can post all the crime thought but I dont think you want that

>>21874182
The federal government fought a war to end slavery. Hundreds of thousands of men died, that's payment enough. If those niggers want more they can earn it.

>>21872203

>>21874277
fret not, anon. my power level exceeds your scouter's capacity. I assure you I'm more than familiar with anything you might intend to say. I've been on 4chan and many, many other places for well over a decade. people like myself just rarely bother to post in /lit/ in 4chan's current era

>>21874307
>One of the most fundamental splits between Conservative viewpoints and Liberal viewpoints is what they view the molecule of society as being. The Liberal views the smallest possible unit of society as being the Individual. Thus, all of their policies and issues stem from this fountainhead.
chadyes.jfif

>>21874327
>chadyes.jfif
You wouldn't be dumping milquetoast non-position essays on 4chan if your cells were as retarded as you are.

>>21874327
It's not really complicated

>>21874332
>t. terminal directionbrain

>>21874327
>>One of the most fundamental splits between Conservative viewpoints and Liberal viewpoints is what they view the molecule of society as being. The Liberal views the smallest possible unit of society as being the Individual. Thus, all of their policies and issues stem from this fountainhead.
This is the point of Othmar Spann's True State

He basically says liberals start from the principle of the radical individual, but this lapses into either nihilism or force no matter how you develop the concept into a social framework, whereas he starts from the Aristotelian and scholastic assumption that while we are individuals we are also inextricably interwoven with one another and "meant" to be socially interreliant

Another way to phrase it is that the liberal sees the individual's rights as primary and really existing, and duties as only arising when individuals make contracts based on rational attempts to maximize their rights, whereas Spann's individual has both rights and duties as part of his primary being

>>21873842
>there needs to be more space for the social progressive + economic moderate-centrist
your kind were handed the world on a silver platter after WWII, and we now have a thoroughly wrecked shithole on our hands because of that. I think youve had plenty of 'spaces' in the real world and online, don't come on here whining that you simply havent been given the time or resources to make your case.

They fear us because they know our ascendance is unstoppable

>>21875463
well put

>>21875467
based and good shirt

>>21875467
you faggots are being stopped at every turn lmao

>>21872203
This book is pretty good and gives a very, VERY basic definition and explanation of what feminism is. Yet, if you feel unsure about the concept, it's a decent read.

It's not only for chuds either, but some people might find it productive just to get their feet back on the ground.

I don't get anything out of women being "liberated," so I will not be a feminist.

>>21875496
They expected one of us in the wreckage...

>>21872203
Wtf you guys i said the author’s name out loud and my roommate turned into a frog

>>21875467
hitler was a gay British Muslim communist