/lit/ - Literature

>>22241144
Max Stirner

>Dante
>Bach
>Michaelangelo

They were all intensely religious men. To produce works of towering genius like you are talking about a man needs to believe in God, or at least the transcendent.

Did you really think atheists living in an entirely materialist context could produce great art? LOL.

>>22241150
looks like you got spook'd

>>22241162
da vinci was an atheist. but i think he believed in some form of sublime grace as evidenced in his most famous paintings.

>>22241144
it's because the old aristocracy was generous to artists and patronised talent whenever they saw it. Nowadays you have multimillionaire spendthrifts who don't give a shit about beautiful art. talent ends up going to waste. western americanised culture is geared towards hating art, look at how people make fun of liberal arts graduates saying "haha you're gonna work at mcdonald's". modern society does not deserve good art, all it deserves is profit margins and non-directional scientific "progress"

>>22241144
Crapitalism. You have all the stuff you mentioned, they're just Cathedrals™, brought to you by Mountain Dew, and they're meant to host sports

>>22241144
Hurr durr appreciating classic art while ignoring modern art makes me smart.
Dumbass. Old genius was appreciated because there were only a few people that had both talent and the opportunity to have that talent appreciated. There's probably a hundred Bach clones who died in obscurity. Nowadays it's the opposite problem, everyone has a platform so insane talent just gets scrolled over to the next insane talent. You not longer have an institution telling you who "the greats" are anymore, they'll just push whatever is the perfect mix of cheap to produce and attention drawing. You've gotta dig out the real stuff yourself which is its own problem.

>Why don't people make 16th century art until the end of time
Times change, people are making better art now than even in my opinion.

>>22241189
Old money and generational wealth dried up, modern rich people are almost univerally nouveau riche industrialists who don't give a shit about art, all they care about is sex and drugs

>>22241192
>. You've gotta dig out the real stuff yourself which is its own problem.
Name the Bach, Dante, and Michelangelo of today lol

>>22241144
Because photography and mobile phones exist

>>22241209
t. zoomer

>>22241162
Caravaggio was not driven towards religion, you can tell by his later paintings how tired he was of drawing jesus

>>22241144
but people paint, sculpt and compose operas even nowadays and it's not all just postmodernism

>>22241144
The artists had rich aristocratic backers with reasonably good taste who wanted prestige to show off to other aristocrats.

For example why were there so many classical composers in Germany? Because Germany was a hodgepodge of small kingdoms, and every little king or count or earl wanted to have his own royal composer, since music was the big thing in the 17th and 18th centuries. This was a huge opportunity for composers.

You can never get that kind of output with the common people being the consumers or even *gulp* governments subsidizing it. Because in that case you get lowest common denominator slop.
It's actually amazing that from the 30s until the 50s cinema output was so relatively high-quality. I mean, people today watch a Film like the Maltese Falcon and it's high-brow to them.

There won't be good art so long as art is produced to the taste of the unwashed masses. And even as our society turns to neo-feudalism it won't solve anything, because the new aristocrats are just degenerate pedophiles and not people of refined taste.

>>22241162
This guy is a fucking idiot. You could still find people with talent, it's just that no one's backing them and the masses just want slop.

>>22241144
Warrior-aristocrats got fucked by merchants. Merchants erode culture to make more money.

to be an artist you have to be homeless. other wise you make it a business and have to be held hostage by your consumers, so your art eventually turns into a run-on gag of itself, or you have to work which takes time away from your art

>>22241261
Retard. The most influential family of Renaissance Italy, the House of Medici, who financed Brunelleschi, Leonardo, Botticelli and Michelangelo, were bankers.

>>22241267
>b-but muh bankers financed them!
Bankers don’t give a fuck about art except insofar as it is profitable or they think they can make a profit from it. Where are your bankers today?

>>22241242
Yeah and it all sucks

Unless you have rich backers, things like this just aren't feasible anymore. Do some research on how much of painters and sculptors lives were devoted to high art and what their financial backgrounds are. You'll see a pattern, they were all insanely rich or had big backers throughout their lives.

Now look at how much a Cathedral or a Palace cost to make, no individual person has that kind of money anymore, Versailles for example costed the GDP of France for half a year, money is much more spread out these days. Wait for individuals to get rich and you'll see great art produced once again. But the truth is 99% great art was and will be produced by nepo babies or massive autists.

>>22241277
Yeah, sorry, The Florence Cathedral is basically Disneyland

>>22241243
>You could still find people with talent
Where?

>>22241243
Why aren't the rich patronising great art?

>>22241209
T. funkopop millennial

>>22241296
t. wrong generationer who will never be able to relate to anything that actually captures the period of time they live in

>>22241297
Yeah

>>22241277
>Bankers don’t give a fuck about art except insofar as it is profitable
If you're so desperate for people to basically throw money away then you should probably do it yourself. What's stopping you? You don't care for "profit" after all

>>22241286

>>22241297
t. spend five hundred buckarinos on plastic last month
STAR WARS DUDE HAHA

>>22241301
Yeah a picture of breezeway really captures the artistic landscape of the 21st century

>>22241318
Yea. People aren't staying in one place for too long so everything must be uniform and soulless. The only colour modern cities offer are from brands. Architecture is dead.

>>22241144
There are, they are just hidden/unknown

people like op have zero clue about the contemporary art world

>>22241369
Oh you do name the "Name the Bach, Dante, and Michelangelo of today?"...... doesn't respond like the other guy I asked... fuck yourself retard

>>22241371
Nicola Samori for example

>>22241183
Unlikely he was an atheist. His last words were “I have upset God and Humanity, because I didn’t live up to the standard I should have.”

>>22241372
Ah yes comparable to Bach!

>>22241371
>bach
king crimson
>dante
cormac mccarthy
>michelangelo
idk not a huge art guy, i like Anselm Kiefer

>>22241375
bach is a composer retard

>>22241389
anon...

>>22241144
>Almost nothing of substance is made anymore.
>Will it ever come back? What will it take?
Um aren't things like sculpting, operatic music, or things that u assume to have substance, limited in its degree of freedom? Don't get me wrong, the classical arts may be fantastic and could've required extreme ingenuity & hardwork to make the best of the best works, many of which are still cherished to this day, however many good ideas may have run out. if u think I'm coping by saying that low hanging fruits have already picked, fine, claim that we're too low iq & dumb to continue along the footsteps of the legends. However u can't deny the fact that modern forms of art, which was possible only due to advances in STEM, have given us new avenues to make art. Best examples are cinema & vidja, of which the latter has some seriousl potential that is totally undertapped thx to corporate profits. Cinema & vidja are the natural continuation of the classical arts.
>>22241162
>Dante
>Bach
>Michaelangelo
>They were all intensely religious men.
would be interesting to see their art made in modern format

>>22241375
you don't want to discover art, you don't want to learn about painters or sculptors you might like, you just want to whine how we are all fucked
why do you even assume the classical form is dead if that's what you like, just use the google, there are academic painters/sculptors using it in every country, even yours for sure

>>22241385
What are you niggas on

>>22241144
If you are asking literally its because people moved on, theres no point in making stuff that was already done and better 800 years ago
If you are asking in the sense of why artworks arent grandiose anymore than idk what to answer to that perhaps a cultural shift? But at the same time, are the things that were considered grandiose back then still are nowdays? Think about it Michalangelo was the best of his era but nowdays there are hundreds of people who can replicate his work perfectly same could be said about alot of other things not just painting and sculpture.

>>22241401
None of it is sincere. The guy you posted is an edgelord trying to be unique. It's still postmodernism just with a "classical' twist. The most you get is those autists in like Poland or Russia or whatever who make real classical paintings and it's not bad but it still doesn't feel real. Feels more like those guys on the beach doing caricatures than a real artist trying to show something

Oswald Spengler...

>>22241437
wow almost if like art evolved or something and painting realistic portraits doesn't make the same sense it did 600 years ago

>>22241448
It's one thing for things to progress and innovate it's another to completely disregard the concept of beauty in all aspects of art.

>>22241437
>It doesn't feel real
I think the beauty of those kinds of art has something to do with the world those artists were living in, and the culture we live in today is just unfit for such works as we're deviating from romance more and more

>>22241455
what kind of art would that be if there wasn't any artistic expression in it
there are sculptors capable of making a huge detailed realistic aphrodite statue out of marble nowadays but it would be just a big insincere larp, same as those polish/russian guys you described
michelangelo made sense in the context of his era, copying him nowadays would never have the same effect, that's why we don't build gothic cathedrals anymore and so on

>>22241462
I don't know I'm not an artist or innovator but just something better than this?? You don't have to make the sistine chapel but at least try to make something pleasing to look at.

>>22241419

>>22241162
SPBP

>>22241467
you are looking for something like this then? that's contemporary too

>>22241462
You ever listen to Joanna Newsom? Maybe better example. It's not Bach. It's not classical music. It's contemporary music but it's beautiful. Lots of flutes, violins, harp and other instruments. Lyrics are inspired by a mix of classical and modern literature but the music feels real and sincere. It has meaning. It's not just empty imitation. This is rare but it doesn't have to be. We can't make St Peter's Basilica today but why can't we make something more beautiful than what we have now?

>>22241484
Yeah I like this. Not bad

>>22241492
so just search for a contemporary figurative art, that picrel is from here where it was sold for 1700 gbp https://www.panterandhallarchive.com/
you have lot of galleries and auction houses like this where you can endlessly scroll through artists and art in any imaginable style

>>22241217
>all they care about is sex and drugs
exactly like old money

the difference between nouveaux riches and old money is that old money never cared for virtue signaling, because they never cared to pass as the plebeians.

>>22241144
The Talmud could be a good place to start.

Cool paintings and sculptures and all but buildings do be ugly still.

>>22241144
Decline of the West volume 1

>>22241144
Think about how fast life is paced now, even in artistic circles. There is no longer any room in life for perfection. The reign of quantity applies to time as well as matter.

>>22241144
jews
tiredly and unironically
its always the jews

ok, jewtards are here, time to close this thread

>>22241189
People hate (post)modern liberal arts graduates because they are talentless commie whiners begging taxpayers to fund their bad decisions. Or they infest some industry or company and inflict their awful writing and dumb ideologies on content that you might otherwise have enjoyed. That's where the hate comes from.

>>22241144
We can't build what they built because we do not believe what they believed.
>>22241162
SPBP. It's taboo to say it but deeply Catholic ideally and Christian if not product unbelievably cohesive societies politically and beautiful monuments architecturally.

>>22241282
>Now look at how much a Cathedral or a Palace cost to make,
>A book published in 1694, by Carlo Fontana, the final architect of the basilica, records the total cost of the construction as 46,800,052 ducats.[1]
>So in today’s terms, that would put the cost of the original at at least $6.59 billion in gold (at today’s value).
>40-50B based on labor
https://www.quora.com/How-expensive-was-St-Peters-Basilica-to-build?share=1
Unfortunately beauty is unbelievably cheap but the collective morality, dedication, and drive fequired to create it via being Catholics in a state of grace is exceedingly hard. The Basilica Cathedral in St. louis, one of the most beautiful buildings in North America and it only cost $92M in today's money from $3M in 1914. It's just because our souls are hideous and we sin, watch porn, and fornicate.

>>22241144
The Traditionalist/cyclical view of history would account for this.

>>22241144
There‘s about a 200 year gap between each of those three. Is the question of whether any hood art has been made in the last 200 years?

I hate brown people too but please try much harder.

I was in the contemporary art museum of barcelona once and i couldn't believe how bullshit boring and empty it was.
The thing is what do you want to make art about? There is nothing really left, it's all replaced by an empty void carved by money. No dreams no collective believes etc..
The only thing worthy of portraying is the void and the despair that's left.

>>22241209
Give some examples then.

>>22241243
>This guy is a fucking idiot.
Not the same anon, but you're the idiot here if you dont see that the magnum opus of each artist mention in OP is a religious piece, Bach - Mass in B Minor, Dante - Divine Comedy, Michelangelo - Pietà, Sistine Chapel, Last Judgment.

>You could still find people with talent
Talent is not even half of what's needed to produce truly good and aesthetic art

>>22241162
Caravaggio was motivated by his intense lust for every beautiful person

>>22241225
>>22241371
>>22241375
If, from the outset, you are prejudiced against the idea of a modern artist ever being comparable to your classical idols, then who will ever convince you? Seriously… how could someone ever convince you when it’s likely that you’ll just shoot down whatever they offer up.
You’re just one floating opinion among a million others. Bach, Dante, and Michelangelo have prestige because their work has been around for centuries. It’s hard arguing against prestige so obviously you have authority on your side.

Regardless, it is clear to me that you have a very infantile understanding of the modern art world.

Picrel is a random Beksinski. He makes me feel more than most Michelangelo I have ever encountered. But I am only one floating opinion among millions so I’m sure you don’t care.

>>22241225
Banksy
Hunter Biden

>>22241225
Polyphia, Well Cormac just died so I'll give you that, Sam Hyde

>>22242305
People who like this shit are nerds who like Magic the gathering and CRPG's. I know a guy like you. Do you like Aphex Twin or post punk or whatever mbv shit or ambient?

Do you not find value in anything unless an authority tells you it's "great"? Why is Bach better than Outkast? Taste is objective and if you need to rely on old world aristocratic values to decipher what's good, you can't think for yourself.

Can people post great contemporary art or artists please?

>>22242513
Giger

>>22242513
Whoever the art director for Suzume is. God damn that anime is beautiful

>>22242554
>>22242556
Thanks anons. I'm trying to become more of a 'man of the times' and I have no idea where to start.

>>22241144
It's very simple, after the contagion and mental conquest of capitalistic ideas on the human mind all things have been guided by profit and a race to the bottom for profit, thus spending a shit ton for art that reflects the light of the divine is no longer seen as profitable.
It shall be like so until we learn how to use capitalism without being consumed by it.

>>22241144
>Is there a book that explains why there are no artists like Dante, Bach, or Michelangelo anymore?
History decides, there will be 21st century greats.
>No cathedrals
The West isn't religious anymore.
>No operas
Opera has been dead since the 1930s.
>No paintings. No sculptures
There are plenty, too many actually.
>Almost nothing of substance is made anymore
Yes.
>Will it ever come back?
Maybe.
>What will it take?
Nobody knows.

>>22242456
Taste and judgement are subjective, the quality of art is objective.

>>22241144
Semi-related stuff but The Shock of the New: Art and the Century of Change by Robert Hughes offers an insightful analysis of modern art and its evolution from the late 19th century to the late 20th century; the cultural, social, and technological forces that have shaped art over time.
Seven Days in the Art World by Sarah Thornton provides a behind-the-scenes look at the contemporary art world, examining the different facets and players involved. It offers an understanding of the art market, museums, art fairs, and the broader context in which contemporary art is created and consumed.
The $12 Million Stuffed Shark: The Curious Economics of Contemporary Art by Don Thompson delves into the economics of the art market and explores the motivations and factors that drive the prices and valuations of contemporary artworks, shedding light on the contemporary art world and its relationship with commerce.

>>22241144

I am sure there are. If your question is a legitimate book - none. You have painters, artists, and others who are all just as talented as these men, you have a handful of "greats" who get remembered for different reasons, some I'd say legitmate, others flukes etc. across time.
As other have pointed out - the logic, and methods of patronage changed, and the Scale of the global economy means that you simply are ignorant of the vast majority of everything produced, no matter how intune you are with a given art area. It is easy to be remembered as "a great" when the scale of the economy is nothing, and you are one of perhaps a 100 or so people tops doing what you do.
There will be no response that satisfies you because you are asking this in bad faith, you have already accepted that the works of the past cannot be matched by the works of moderns, and you want someone to give you some swill about post-modernism, or some other garbage that will not actually address your question. You could read some media theory stuff, a lot of the early pioneers of that field were grumpy old men who felt that things were in decline too, but you won't like them because - they are mostly commies who argue what they do because they felt Capitalism was killing art which won't fit your myopic world view.

>>22242677

The criteria of what is quality and what is done well though is in fact based on judgment, which is always shifting you mongoloid. There are many, many contemporaries of "great" artists who were also seen as great, and had really the same talent and abilities who have fallen into relative obscurity.
I'd say a lot of ancient art is rather simplistic, to the point of almost being childish - it is impressive because of time, context, and other factors. If I made a fertility idol now most people would think I was a hack with no sculpting talent even though that was all the rage at the start of civilization...

>>22242771
Quality and what is considered well-done can involve subjective judgments, but there are objective criteria and standards that can be used to evaluate them. Many fields have established standards and guidelines that define quality, developed through consensus among experts and scholars through knowledge and experience. While judgments may shift over time, they reflect an evolutionary process of improvement and advancement in fields, driven by new insights and standards. Personal preferences may play a role, but the existence of established standards, expert judgment, consensus-building processes, and the progressive nature of quality assessment indicate the presence of objective and reliable criteria for evaluating what is done well.

>>22241183
Leonardo was a great fucking painter but he was more interested in conveying intellectual meanings than grand ideas with his paintings. That's why they don't carry the majesty of Michelangelo. Nothing cam really tell us whether he believed in something or he was an atheist

>>22241318
Contemporary and modern "art" is shit. It's something entirely different than classical art as it shifted the focus off the aesthetic and order, proportion in favour of the meaning. The meaning became the sole focus of modern art, one could say. The issue is that the aforementioned quality is also the most subjective out of them all, therefore art thus devised is fickle to the core and unable to be appreciated unless you masturbate your brain and convince yourself that the one interpretation you have it's right. Contemporary art is just an artist ego boost that requires external elements to be somewhat enjoyed.

>>22241385
>cormac mccarthy
literally who?

>>22241144
As an uneducated and frankly stupid incel who sits around on 4chan and chud twitter all day, how would you know? You know that that's what you are. Your counterpart from 300 years ago wasn't an aristocrat aesthete, it was an illiterate farmer.

>>22243213
Someone is mad they have bad taste in art

>>22243201
Something you people are too ideologically motivated to understand is that a painting of a scene from the Bible or classical mythology, no matter how skillfully rendered, requires much more context and understanding of meaning to appreciate than say a Kandinsky painting, which are literally nothing but form and order.

>>22242387
>polyphia
bruh

>>22242425
No. I’m a guy who likes the exact opposite of those things. KYS

>>22242554
I second this

>>22243227
Of course, but what you are missing is that modern art enjoyment is close to 100% meaning while classical doesn't require knowledge to be appreciated. If you also know the lore behind it it's even better, but in case of architecture anyone can be amazed by a gothic cathedral or a fresco while not knowing its symbolism

>>22241217
>nouveau riche
>Translates directly to 'new rich', one fewer syllable and several fewer letters
Why are people like this

>>22242215
no he wasn’t retard

>>22241144
>
>>22241144
Double dubs checked.

In his lifetime, Bach wasn't considered a genius; if anything, he was seen as old-fashioned. He wasn't "discovered" until the 1830s.

If there isn't such a book, maybe you should write one?

>>22243525
I have no talent

>>22241144
There are plenty of brilliant artists alive like Giovanni Gasparro. The problem is their works are suppressed ever since the bad guys won WWII.

>>22241144
We live in the most artistically rich and perfected era in human history. Modern art dwarfs all prior accomplishments of Man, and is the natural peak of all artistic and cultural thriving of Mankind. All the ideals of human culture are to be found in this art, from the holy to the profane, and it towers over all of human history as its highest accomplishment. Yes, it includes sculpture and music as well. The problem? You're too blind to see it and have no interest in it because you are plebeian.

Anime is the high art of the modern world and the culmination and perfected form of all aesthetic, artistic, transcendental, erotic etc. striving of Man. Anime is Art itself.

>>22241243
It’s clear the customer is always wrong. That’s why music critics can’t handle eloquent stuff like Emerson, Lake & Palmer and put on some 3rd Ramones record on to cope.

>>22243574
ELP sucks bro. King Crimson is good tho

>>22243589
It was a placeholder. I could say “early Genesis”, “Yes” or “Rush” and the same conclusion could be drawn. I should that ingenuity rarely goes hand in hand with adept social climbing. Those words are very often opposed.

>>22243609
Worlds* not words and I should say “that”

I really need to look over my posts before hitting the send button

this whole thread

>>22241162
Why are modern christcucks incapable of it? Are they lacking faith too?

>>22242554
>>22242305
>>22243544
Cringe low IQ art desu.

This is indeed a difficult topic. But well there's still some good art being made today, you just gotta dig a bit deeper, this is all commercial stuff. Who hasn't heard about Giger? his illustrations had a commercial purpose even, it wasn't picture in a flat surface like painting is. It's not about technique nor about muh surrealist ideas like in the examples above. It's beauty and human soul. It's been like this throughout the centuries no matter the epoch or style. They always strove for beauty, like a decorative dance of colours, values and shapes all balanced together, unlike what's happening with the classic realist school of today where they aim for realism and optical illusion.

It's true that painting has been dying since the 60s but who knows what may come about.

>>22241487
I love Joanna Newsom and definitely could be from other epoque, I can think of the triptic garden of delights by Bosch listening to her music. Dreamy and feeling like hearing tales.

>>22241243
This anon is right

>>22241397
>limited in its degree of freedom?
Limitation leads to great art. A guitar piece is limited by the 6 string poliphony, and yet you can build whole universes within it, and it feels alive and breathing. Give total pitch, rhytmic, tonal and timbral freedom and at most you get IDM, full of sound and fury, signifying nothin, and most often than not you get horrendous music
>would be interesting to see their art made in modern format
No such thing. The world is not a pick and choose buffet. Those artworks were expressions of their times and their culture as much as of their authors. Today they would be making wojaks and shitposts and would be agnostic at best

Art is a reflection of the ethos of those who possess the means to appropriate the institutions that create and curate art for themselves. There is no such thing as value-free art, therefore there is no such thing as art with no ideology...art is the way it is today because it is what those people at this current time and place think to be desirable as art. It is what pleases them the most, what caters to their tastes and ideology the best.

>>22241144
The Decline of the West

short answer: globalism

>>22241162
while this has some truth to it, it is more important what the patrons believe. today, they believe nothing.
>>22241243
you are mostly right
the elite need god, to want to honor god, and to sponsor good art to do so

Decline of the West

Capitalism has been perfected
no more ostentatious characteristic
everyone can own anything

>>22241144
Capitalism

>>22241189
>look at how people make fun of liberal arts graduates saying "haha you're gonna work at mcdonald's".

As they should. Lord knows da Vinci needed a B.A. in Liberal Arts from Yale before he was even allowed to paint...

its retarded to blame capitalism. Art Deco, the finest art movement of modernity, was very much a product of capitalism

>>22244327
Liberal arts are taught in schools now. There are no more masters, apprentices, guilds, and shit. Got to work with what you have. If you don’t want liberal arts students to have opportunities then don’t complain about the lack of good art

>>22243684
Often yes but they're also a small minority in a vaguely hostile pagan society

>>22241752
Are you seriously valuing ducats by the modern value of the gold in them? Let me tell you a little something, gold is way more expensive nowadays than it used to be, because it's a popular hedge asset in a huge economy. To get a better idea of how much it really cost people, translate the ducats to cows or wheat, and the cows or wheat to dollars.

>>22241401
Protip: OP is an autistic forever-spammer who isn't interested in changing his mind.
The image he uses in the OP and the phrase "atheist materialist" or variations on it are his giveaways.

Ultraprotip: every board on 4chin has 15-20 regulars, tops. And they just post the same shit day in and day out like robots.

>>22241225
Odd Nedrum

>>22241261
Finally another anon pointing out the merchant-class.

>>22244253
yeah and currently art is the entertainment industry and this industry is just clever accounting and money laundering

>22243572
You need better bait.

I'm not paying 5 million dollars for some retard artist to paint a painting or carve a sculpture I will look at most a couple times per day when I can spend that money on other stuff.
Nobody is interested in art. I went to an art gallery, it was a hole in the wall in some overgentrified inner city neighborhood. There's only so much to do in every medium before it gets tired and you start seeing the same things. Art is gay anyways, I hate to break it to you but it's just not that interesting. Artistic expression was always a meme rich fucks tried to tell everyone was important until everybody could try.

>Almost nothing of substance is made anymore.
Just play video games.

>>22241162
/thread

>>22245675
>I'm not paying 5 million dollars for some retard artist to paint a painting or carve a sculpture I will look at most a couple times per day
we'll see when you have to launder money

>>22245700
>just consoom, we're all retarded manchildren

>>22241144
Christianity.
Remember, European music is the best in the world thanks to people finding ways to better express their love for Jesus. Only place with musical harmony.

Don't even get me started on the beautiful paintings and cathedrals

>>22241183
>The ledditard has to make shit up to try and steal from Christians
Pathetic

>>22245718
You could just as well say you're "consuming" historical forms of fine arts. You're using a magic word to condemn something.

>>22244865
/thread

>>22243684
They get censored by jews like you all the time

>>22241144
The answer is capitalism

>>22245724
EEEEEE, WRONG. Consumption (derogatory) is a modern method of being. Classical forms of art were created with specific cultural, historical, or philosophical contexts in mind. They often carry deep meanings and messages that require a certain level of knowledge and understanding to appreciate fully, they provide profound insights into the human condition, addressing universal themes that remain relevant across generations. Unlike modern media, which is often created for entertainment or quick consumption of manchildren who can afford it, classical arts demand patience, contemplation, and a willingness to explore their historical and cultural significance. But of course there is no tangible difference between playing video games 16 hours a day in your mother's basement and experiencing good art to the modern consoomer. Or rather, there is, they prefer the video games because their brains are too fried already.

>>22241144
>What will it take?
TOTAL

>>22241350
some pseud always gives this answer to cope with the fact that we've declined so far. Please point them out then.

>>22246051
Any answer given will not change your mind though.
see
>>22244865

>>22243544

https://www.timesofisrael.com/prominent-italian-painter-unveils-a-work-depicting-anti-semitic-blood-libel/amp/

His art is a little soulless though. It’s like strict realism imitating the greats but never reaching their level. It’s technically good painting though.

There was a book by an Irish woman that talked about how the loss of aristocracy and this aristocratic patronage led to a collapse in visual art. I can’t for the life of me remember the title or name of the author and Google is turning up nothing. But it was a very interesting book.

>>22246136
>Irish woman
two red flags

>>22246136
>>22241569
These books have contextualized my view of modern art. I think Oswald Spengler did a good job of arguing that in all cultures, art eventually detaches from the culture and becomes a hollow imitation of its formerly great self. But that alone doesn’t explain why Western Art dissolved so much relative to art in other cultures. This book I mentioned does a good job in explaining that much of the dissolution is the result of a loss in aristocracy. Without aristocratic manners, aristocratic tastes, and other things like this, art falls first into socio-political-economic critique and then is subsumed into commercial art. From there, it just dissolves further into a sort of nothing and all that’s left is a game for certain groups with money and degrees to talk about art. That explanation makes a lot of sense to me.

>>22246145
If I recall, she was a trad cath that had become disenchanted with her higher art education and sought to explain how art schools and circles went from renaissance masters to pomo schizophrenia. The book was well-written and well-researched in my opinion. I wouldn’t dismiss it because of an ad hominem.

>>22241183
>>22243173
Do you guys actually know anything about Da Vinci? He only has 20 paintings under his name and half of those arent even finished. He wasnt known as being an artist in his time and if you actually looked at his paintings they're nothing impressive. Hitler was unironically a better artist. The only reason the Mona Lisa is famous is because its been stolen so many times. If you actually think its "beautiful", you are an npc.

>>22243497
you are literally on the literature board dumbass

>>22245138
and he got immediately disproven too

>>22246149
>Without aristocratic manners, aristocratic tastes, and other things like this, art falls first into socio-political-economic critique and then is subsumed into commercial art. From there, it just dissolves further into a sort of nothing and all that’s left is a game for certain groups with money and degrees to talk about art. That explanation makes a lot of sense to me.
aristocracy has nothing to do with art being good
for art you need emaning and atheists took power by saying there is no meaning, in order to base society on commerce alone, during the day, and and sex and drugs during the night (this part is exactly like in the previous society). there that's all there is to it.

>>22246255
It does, because art needs patronage. In anti-aristocratic regime, your patrons are either bankers or the broader market. You make at best commercial art with commercial interests. Art which eludes that is reduced to non-aristocratic concerns, the strictly socio-economic. I think the idea that atheists just sort of convinced everyone that everything is meaningless because they said so and art fell apart as a result is sort of ridiculous.

>>22241144
Let me guess, you think Hegel is just some meanie obscurantist and you never took his thesis about the historical purpose of art and its completion seriously. Why indeed. The world will never know.

>>22241371
>Bach
Yellow Swans
>Dante
Jon Fosse
>Michelangelo
Jackson Pollock

>B-But splatter paintings aren't ar-*GUNSHOT*
Heh, there's a splatter painting for you...

>>22241144
It's a phenomenon from the early 20th century with abstract art that began with Dada.
Dada wasn't the problem, it was made a counter protest to art exhibitions during the first world war. The problems began when the American art complex and galleries realized they could sell shoddy abstract art pieces for hundred of thousands and that quickly scalated to conceptual art. So, artists who learned how to draw, paint, sculpt, etc. became part of the entertainment industry as only certain kind of "artists" were allowed in art galleries and museums.
Nowadays, the problem is that millennials consider criticism toxic, so there's no reason for improvement as everything is subjective and everything has to be inclusive.

>>22242305
The guy isn't contemporary, imbecile. He's from the modern era.

>>22243572
Even as bait this is in poor form kindly commit violent suicide.

>>22246051
Is not thay we have declined (there should be more artworks than any time in history), in classic times patrons liked to show they had great artists at their disposition as a display of power, now (true, really rich) patrons don't like to show their artist and their artworks as the same display of power only just for their pleasure, artist comply with this because money. Is that easy.

>>22246576
That*

>>22241144
It's because God is dead and was replaced with environmentalism, sex, and SSRIs

>Dante
The Divine Comedy isn't that great. Lots of it is boring. Oh wow, he's really sticking it to that party in 14th century Italian politics I don't care about either way.
You can claim all you like that you enjoyed the Paradise section, I'm not going to believe you.
It's got some good bits sure. But it's hardly the flawless masterpiece it's made out to be

>>22247020
So what is a flawless masterpiece

>>22241144
There are. You just don’t think that highly of them.

>>22242387
i lold

>>22241144
There are 12 year old chinks out there more talented than all of them combined

>>22241209
B8

>>22242513
Nicki Minaj
>I'm the terminator
>Bitch talk slick, I'ma have to terminate her
>These little nappy-headed hoes need a perminator
>You my seed, I spray you with the germinator
>Move back, bugs
>Matter fact, you know the queen could use a back rub
>If you could turn back time, Cher
>You used to be here [pronounced as "hair"], now you're gone, Nair

>>22244336
Art Nouveau > Art Deco

Art, architecture, and music reached peak in the rococo period and we should have packed it in after that.

>>22241144
There are a few brief passages in Gay Science on this. Basically the logic of industrial production is quantitative whereas fine art is obviously qualitative. There's no time to nurture excellence because it's not productive, and recall that in medieval Europe artists were often in guilds rather than being processed through a school.

>>22241144
all those guys believed in a higher calling and made art for something bigger than themselves, that is absent today. Robert Eggers has a good quote about it

>>22242513
beksinski
henrik uldalen
max ernst

any of the retards ITT saying there is no good art, are not looking.
these retards are looking for good music in the radio, when you actually have to look for the good music yourself with research.
most of the classical greats were not appreciated during their time, it was only decades after they made their art were they appreciated.
history is the greatest filter, which is why we only have select few good artists despite the millions/billions that lived during those times.
if you want to insult contemporary art, insult it for the culturally bankrupt rich people using it as speculative trading.

>>22241144
They just built The Sphere in Las Vegas, the architects of old could scarcely conceive of such a structure. In 200 years the neo-Mormon cultists will make pilgrimages to it like it's the Kaaba.

>>22246283
it's not atheism per se but both are symptomatic of the same broader cultural shifts that make nietzsche say god is dead

>>22247553
>most of the classical greats were not appreciated during their time, it was only decades after they made their art were they appreciated.
The artists listed in the OP made public works, but strictly speaking it's questionable whether they were appreciated in the same sense we imagine today (as an act of private consumption).

>if you want to insult contemporary art, insult it for the culturally bankrupt rich people using it as speculative trading.
We agree on this at least.

>>22246255
>aristocracy has nothing to do with art being good
Yes, it definitely does. Art requires a patron, who acts as a guide to the artist. The art of hundreds of years ago was patroned by the church or aristocracy that were church or history minded. "Good" modern art is still cultivated by patrons but its treated as a tax evasion money laundering scheme so they dont care whatever the person makes.

modern art exists
its stuff like hyperion, neuromancer, bester's tiger tiger, vernor vinge, etc
its also stuff like planescape:torment, fallout 2 and new vegas, system shock
im having fun
i like those things
i have found deep meaning in them and i am happy when i experience them

there is basically no issue here, only angry virgins raging on 4channel to pass the time, half of you retards go full contrarian in this same thread next week because what you really think is the popular opinion in this thread or on some reddit retard website, so like a good little (you) farmer, you wake up early in the morning, and you tend to your rage reply crops, every day is the harvesting season for you virgins

>>22247553
also blame the CIA for pushing pollocks garbage to push expressionism during the cold war
you can find many contemporary artists who were inspired by and build upon romanticism.
as well as the probably contemporary trend of artists engaging in expressionism and relying on an explanatory passage to give you meaning.
go to your local art museum, folk art is usually a bit better than contemporary that you see online.
>>22247599
>The artists listed in the OP made public works
sure, that level of spectacle usually means some sense of appreciation. however, there are still many artists who were only greatly appreciated after their time.

>>22247607
>but its treated as a tax evasion money laundering scheme so they dont care whatever the person makes.
Another reason they don't care is they simply have no taste, as there's no correlation between having lots of money from selling vacuum cleaners and a taste for high art.

The fact that the world no longer produces geniuses or great movements, when every past generation had dozens of them and at least a handful of true supergeniuses, even in dark ages, should be as scary to people today as would be a doctor telling an individual person "we can't figure out why, your body just isn't producing neurotransmitters anymore." It's literally a death sentence. Any normal person would react to hearing that diagnosis by saying "what the hell do I do?" They wouldn't put off treatment or thinking about the problem for a week or even five seconds. For all they know they have four seconds to live.

But we have collective, spiritual equivalent of that diagnosis going on right now, a much worse version of that movie Children of Men in which people continue being born but it's like their souls aren't there or are asleep, and yet nobody is doing anything. There are no real books about this, nobody really cares, no one can even get a clear grasp of the problem to at least start yelling about it.

Imagine finding out your soul is dying. That's what's happening to us. EVERY other generation got its Beethovens and Wittgensteins. Even if you don't like specific ones, they're still important. Even if an era only has "middling" geniuses, or was a dark age, this still means incredible unattainable genius by today's standards. Scratch the surface of any century and you'll find men whose minds were like a Brueghel the Younger painting of a Dutch village compared the greatest of today's minds which are like a postage stamp of an abandoned shithouse.

>>22247630
>sure, that level of spectacle usually means some sense of appreciation.
Yeah it's an interesting question whether the sense of appreciation may have changed from a kind of religious or ecstatic appreciation of art historically to a more private meditative experience today.

>>22247636
which is what made the church the greatest patron of all time

>>22247652
well, i'm right here actually. still waiting for people to care

>>22241144
They were all genetic dead ends.

>>22241144
Yes: the cantos of Ezra Pound.

With usura hath no man a house of good stone
each block cut smooth and well fitting
that design might cover their face,
with usura
hath no man a painted paradise on his church wall
harpes et luz
or where virgin receiveth message
and halo projects from incision,
with usura
seeth no man Gonzaga his heirs and his concubines
no picture is made to endure nor to live with
but it is made to sell and sell quickly
with usura, sin against nature,
is thy bread ever more of stale rags
is thy bread dry as paper,
with no mountain wheat, no strong flour
with usura the line grows thick
with usura is no clear demarcation
and no man can find site for his dwelling.
Stonecutter is kept from his stone
weaver is kept from his loom
WITH USURA
wool comes not to market
sheep bringeth no gain with usura
Usura is a murrain, usura
blunteth the needle in the maid’s hand
and stoppeth the spinner’s cunning. Pietro Lombardo
came not by usura
Duccio came not by usura
nor Pier della Francesca; Zuan Bellin’ not by usura
nor was ‘La Calunnia’ painted.
Came not by usura Angelico; came not Ambrogio Praedis,
Came no church of cut stone signed: Adamo me fecit.
Not by usura St. Trophime
Not by usura Saint Hilaire,
Usura rusteth the chisel
It rusteth the craft and the craftsman
It gnaweth the thread in the loom
None learneth to weave gold in her pattern;
Azure hath a canker by usura; cramoisi is unbroidered
Emerald findeth no Memling
Usura slayeth the child in the womb
It stayeth the young man’s courting
It hath brought palsey to bed, lyeth
between the young bride and her bridegroom
CONTRA NATURAM
They have brought whores for Eleusis
Corpses are set to banquet
at behest of usura.

>>22241162
but you exist on an entirely materialistic plane. art inspired by transcendence is still material

>>22245982
>don't worship jews
>christcuck calls you a jew
kek every time

80 iq types need BIG HOUSE
BIG SOUND operas
BIG STATUE
LOUD
ATTENTION
SHINY
LARGE
my pseud brain needs BIG LARGE SHINY LOUD

we still have 'the substance' to quote op, but retards arent getting the invite because unwashed retards are not gonna make it
modern greats are euler mascheroni constant, they admire large cardinal theorems, birch and swinnerton-dyer conjecture, riemann zeta etc

modern 'dante bach' etc doesnt want to talk to average retard on the street, he is working on hypersonics at raytheon or nsa, in his free time he is doing stuff mentioned above and doesnt have social media, and average pseud retard who is on social media belongs on social media

>>22243385
*forces your face against the screen of your gayming PC*
You're lying.

>>22241162
>>22241243
These posts both get different halves of the answer. When you remove the guidestones of shared values (usually rooted most easily in religion) from society there is no decent basis for art that will have transcendent appeal.

At the same time art was objectively hurt by the loss of the patron class because most people are fucking dumb and incapable of properly appreciating or commenting on culture. Most American children can barely even fucking read anymore--nevermind the years of humanities education needed to appreciate high culture.

>Every natural gift must develop itself by contest. Thus the Hellenic national pedagogy demands, whereas modern educators fear nothing as much as, the unchaining of the so-called ambition. Here one fears selfishness as the "evil in itself"—with the exception of the Jesuits, who agree with the Ancients and who, possibly, for that reason, are the most efficient educators of our time. They seem to believe that Selfishness, i.e., the individual element is only the most powerful agens but that it obtains its character as "good" and "evil" essentially from the aims towards which it strives. To the Ancients however the aim of the agonistic education was the welfare of the whole, of the civic society. Every Athenian for instance was to cultivate his Ego in contest, so far that it should be of the highest service to Athens and should do the least harm. It was not unmeasured and immeasurable as modern ambition generally is; the youth thought of the welfare of his native town when he vied with others in running, throwing or singing; it was her glory that he wanted to increase with his own; it was to his town's gods that he dedicated the wreaths which the umpires as a mark of honour set upon his head. Every Greek from childhood felt within himself the burning wish to be in the contest of the towns an instrument for the welfare of his own town; in this his selfishness was kindled into flame, by this his selfishness was bridled and restricted. Therefore the individuals in antiquity were freer, because their aims were nearer and more tangible. Modern man, on the contrary, is everywhere hampered by infinity, like the fleet-footed Achilles in the allegory of the Eleate Zeno: infinity impedes him, he does not even overtake the tortoise.
t. nietzsche (similar vein: burckhardt: muh agon, huizinga: muh homo ludens)

>the sheer number of Renaissance treatises tells us something about the nature of a cultural movement. One tends to think of what goes by that name as comprising a handful of geniuses with a group of admirers, patrons, and articulate supporters whose names appear (so to speak) as footnotes in smaller type. Actually, it is a large crowd of highly gifted people—the mass is indispensable. This is a generality. And these many co-workers must be great talents, not duffers. They may be incomplete or unlucky as creators, their names may remain or turn dim, but in retrospect we see that this one or that contributed an original idea, was the first to make use of a device. Together, by what they do and say, they help to keep stirred up the productive excitement; they stimulate the genius in their midst; they are the necessary mulch for the period's exceptional growths.

>It takes hundreds of the gifted to make half a dozen of the great. The late-discovered genius who by mischance had to work alone in a remote spot is a sad survivor of solitude and is often maimed by it. In the best periods practice precedes theory—works before notions.
t. barzun

>>22241144
You are just to lazy to search for art that interests you. If you were to live in the age of Michelangelo you still cry about the good old time. Narcisstic ignorant prick, the usual anon.

>>22246130
>>22243701
Case in point, the bad guys won WW2 and you're parroting the opinions your masters are telling you to have

In no shade of this world is Gasparro considered a "cringe, low IQ" artist or "soulless"

>>22246344
>pretence of art without substance
When are you cutting your dick off?

>>22241144
Do we really need another Mozart who composes literal shit eating symphonies?

>>22241144
Things are not built to last anymore. The West civilization's beauty canon is now considered evil.

>>22249543
Too bad that kind of art has no place in public spaces anymore. Pic rel is what they want the common people to be inspired by.

>>22241144
>>>/his/
Zero books mentioned. Retards can go back to their containment board.

>>22241243
>The artists had rich aristocratic backers with reasonably good taste who wanted prestige to show off to other aristocrats.
You mean just like now, it's just that the aristocrats want slop and nonsensical contemporary art?

>>22241144
The beauty is hidden. It's not dead, just underappreciated because "art" became a social construct. There are no connoisseurs to understand, only artists themselves and goy slop consumers. There are no critics, only profiteers and investors. Art is not dead, the society that would build the Sistine Chapel for a Michelangelo to paint is dead.

>>22249647
Go to commie china if you want to live in faux classical era my nigger

>>22241144
>No paintings. No sculptures. Almost nothing of substance is made anymore
like you would know

>>22243497
exposing yourself as a midwit but at least you bothered to educate yourself

>>22245675
>Art is gay anyways, I hate to break it to you but it's just not that interesting. Artistic expression was always a meme
ahh there it is
remember this is the core animus motivating all these soul-deadened art skeptics

>>22247652
>the world no longer produces geniuses or great movements
there are more autistic savants walking the earth than ever but all the doomers like ITT told them to learn coding not art

>>22249647
proving his point /pol/brained dimwit
should've gone with the globe trotting giant selfie ducks

>>22241243
>There won't be good art so long as art is produced to the taste of the unwashed masses. And even as our society turns to neo-feudalism it won't solve anything, because the new aristocrats are just degenerate pedophiles and not people of refined taste.
Uh oh, you can't say this

But seriously,
/thread

>>22246161
Bait

>>22249951
>remember this is the core animus motivating all these soul-deadened art skeptics
pic rel

>>22247553
>beksinski
>henrik uldalen
>max ernst
all from the modern era
>most of the classical greats were not appreciated during their time
soillennial revisionism

>>22241190
you're not acting in good faith. a stadium is not a cathedral, despite their similar size

>>22250579
The unwashed masses want wholesome happy endings and heterosexual love stories, not whatever is being made these days... of course, unless you're of the opinion the masses don't matter and will go along with whatever wokeslop gets produced for shlomo and his friends.

>>22250689
>henrik uldalen
>modern era
>born in 1986
???
don't give me this "its figurative surrealism so its technically late modern"
by that token, art went to shit after WW2 and late modernity and most of the qualms against contemporary art began then.

>>22250772
Serious answer: they produce good low culture works, but they can't produce high culture works.
Like you said the current elite are "shlomo and his friends" who also can't produce high culture and mandate terrible low culture work.

So now we are stuck with the worst result of both worlds.

No books, but an article:

https://www.theintrinsicperspective.com/p/why-we-stopped-making-einsteins

>>22241144
There was fucking centuries between each of those guys. Be patient, become one of those great artists, or just come to terms with the fact that you live in a creative lull.

Also, this >>22241162

>>22247941
The kinds of people who work at Raytheon and the like are careerist bag chasers and as such are incapable of producing great art.

>>22241144
They grew up as apprentices in ateliers with other masters. Now all you need is to have tons of gay sex at some east coast art school and grift some old rich jew into sponsoring your shitty art.

>>22250936
Is patronage dead or not?

>>22243684
The Christians who believe the deepest are also the ones part of churches that don't exactly value the arts anyway.

>>22250956
patronage could be exactly identical to renaissance and early modern style patronage and it wouldn't matter because the worldview underlying it is not a renaissance (platonico-christian piety-based morality + pagan nature-worship) nor early modern (christian-stoic "gentleman" morality + pagan nature-worship + bourgeois self-sufficiency + protonationalistic civic pride & healthy public sphere), it's the modern worldview: a decadent oligarchy's "embedded wealth or family connections are all that really matters" morality, hollowed-out husk of bourgeois self-sufficiency & hollowed-out husk of romantic expressionism turned into merely hedonistic self-stunting "individualism," nature is a meaningless material substrate to be turned into sugar cubes for disgusting fucking pigs some of whom are wealthier/connected than others, but if you criticize any of this the whole will react against you with righteous indignation in the name of THE LIBERTY OF THE INDIVIDUAL and the sacred DROITS DE L'HOMME (de manger batonnets de fromage nu et devant la tele), as if the creators of these ideals weren't all early modern protonationalist stoic robinsonadians and christian pietists who saw mass democracy as a fate worse than death and even a contradiction in terms

>>22241144
Brian Wilson, Adolf Hitler, Kanye West

>>22251003
You will probably retort that only a cynical modern mind could think this way, but you're fucking retarded if you think all those high ideals were anything other than a mask for the same extractive nepotism we have today.

>>22249625
And his operas?

>>22241162
I agree but Michelangelo was a bisexual pagan on the down low. Most of the Renaissance men were.

>>22250860
oh yeah I remember reading that, mostly about the decline of aristocrats with dedicated tutors to make their kids fit for being ruling class elite teaching everything that doesn't fit in school
artist often come from the leisure class due to privilege and it makes sense for great intellectuals to be the same. no way I'd be as well read as I am if I were punching in 40 each week and I'm a midwit

Maybe I should find some rich kids to tutor

Because their food was better. The top of the top people in the renaissance Italy had access to far fresher ingredients than even the richest men today do. You can't grow food like that today because every piece of soil is contaminated with parasitic materials and the air with electronic entropy. When a great artist like Michelangelo bit into an authentic Tuscan tomato he saw things that would blow your mind, things like natural harmony and the making of a complete sculpture out of nothing. This anon >>22241162 is right in the sense that they believed in God, but God wasn't just a person with a God-shaped hole in their psychology, he was a wild, free cosmic presence that must have had a human body. And even though they didn't know a single thing about the proper sexuality of the mythological nature of the deity, they could see that the pine trees that grew in their forests, far from the shores of the Mediterranean, looked like human faces, which was weird enough to be miraculous. They studied science. They meditated and prayed. And it must have been enough to fill their souls, their spirits with the glory of being truly human, and to give them a taste of immortality that is unique to human beings. This has been stolen from us.

>>22241162
Based truthteller

>>22241243
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_addition_paradox

I'm just going to leave this here.

Most of what you said seems true, but I think there's a deeper more subtle and systematic problem. When you subject art to commodification there is a constant gravitational pull not just towards mediocrity, but a lukewarm mash potatoes mediocrity that is actually bad to nearly everyone, just not bad enough. Commodification here meaning something that is equalized or homogenized no matter it's individual characteristics (action movie or just movie for Friday night), and subject to qualification standard of money and mass consumption.

No one is conscious of this or has a counteraction to prevent it, outside of the kind of environment you stated.

>>22241144
Its because art was always about imitation of the past and trying to change it little by little into new forms. With just a round arch and an ogival arch you can basically create anything you want in western architecture from the classical period to the xixth century. Then that framework totally collapsed after the 1910s, and keep in mind that the new modernist styles were proposed by the same guys that were keen on drawing gothic revival town halls a few years before - its not "le degenerate society" that kills the artists, its the artists themselves many times who get saturated and sabotage when they no longer can innovate inside the self imposed limits of imitation.
Also, if we consider architecture to be the frame and setting against which all other forms and objects of art stand in a given epoch (architecture as the basis of the arts, which i believe was the general view in the past, and i agree), our modern paintig and sculpture turned into line-texture-color based (more like decorations) because our architecture itself got this exact treatment into line and fluidity rather than element-based (buildings are not a series of arches that repeats and come with the accompanying human-figure sculptures, buildings are one block grass skycrapper so it makes sense to fill the insides with paintings of simple black and red lines etc)
I also used to hate contemporary art but unironically adopting a chill attitude and viewing it in the same way as pieces of "fashion that you cant wear" -fashion is not art, but it has patterns, colors, combinations that are better than others - made me appreciate contemporary art much more.

>>22251887
Also this of course, if art works by imitation, you need to know your betters before you well and this is best achieved with these classical tutor based education models.

>>22252121
great post, and painting of course
reading just a little about the philosophy and art of architecture helped connect a lot of disparate dots across many domains

Goethe's brief pamphlet 'On Gothic Architecture' is a good one for new anons
----
Several factors set Goethe’s essay apart from the general eighteenth-century
interest in the Gothic revival. Goethe is not interested in the Gothic cathedral as
an actual building with specific purposes. Instead, he discusses the cathedral as if
it were a work of art, and explores its powerful effects on the subjectivity of the
beholder. The innovative thrust of Goethe’s essay must be sought in the way architecture rather than painting or poetry allows him to discuss the effects of a work
of art. In this respect the brief pamphlet far exceeds its various contexts and
becomes legible as an important contribution to aesthetic theory, asserting a profound paradigm change in the arts. Goethe turns to architecture as the model
object of art when art is no longer to be considered primarily a matter of representation. At stake in this essay from 1772, as well as in Goethe’s later essay “On
Architecture” from 1795, is the programmatic exploration of aesthetic experience
through architecture as a medium of emphatic presence

Both On German Architecture and “On Architecture” consider the effects of
architecture on the beholder. The earlier piece focuses on the subjectivity of the
beholder; the latter on the beholder’s sense of embodiment. To reconfigure the
function of art, Goethe introduces architecture as an art that is situated in threedimensional space and bound up with a particular place. The polemical turn
against the then-reigning representational paradigm becomes even more evident
8 Grey Room 35
in a review of the work of the well-known art critic and philosopher Johann Georg
Sulzer, which Goethe wrote around the same time as On German Architecture.

>>22249620
It's the opposite you philistine. Splatter paintings, noise / experimental music, and po-mo literature are so dedicated to substance that they forgo form entirely. They're not constrained by the need to look / sound / read well so as to appeal to a general audience (the actual pretense of art: compromising your work to make it more marketable and still pretending its true art), thus they can say whatever they want.
These forms of art are the most direct forms of expression yet conceived because they have no bounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmhttDpAxk8

>>22242513
Will Toledo

>>22241144
>Is there a book that explains why there are no artists like Dante, Bach, or Michelangelo anymore?


If there is, it would be from the same lens of your myopic scope.

>>22241144
they were a part of the old world. many such cases with old world architecture. you will notice that it is all divine, it is all grand, and advanced. the era in which these were made is clearly distinct from today. there was some sort of sabotage, some demoralization, and corruption of humans. we are not capable of replicating it. sure we have arvo part, he is a divine composer, but that is pretty much it. there is no beauty being made today, beksinski is not beautiful you retards.

>>22242513
StableDiffusion and Midjourney

>>22249647
Sculpture alongside with architecture has always been the most political form of art since sculpture is created to be seen and in the case of buildings, to be used by many.

Plus it's not that they want you to feel inspired by it, but to evoke the feeling in the viewer that this is what their overlords think to be the crystallization of their values and you are absolutely powerless to stop it because it is them who decide what gets put up and what gets demolished, not you. Sculpture and architecture are tools of demoralization among other things.

>>22241144
We in the West, as an ethnix group, have welcomed groups, blacks, indians, africans, arabs, who have no concept of beauty. Or whos concept of beauty is made in opposition to ours which can only be ugly, anything made to refute beauty can only be ugly, therefore we as a culture no longer produce beauty because it upsets/offends those who only see inferiority in themselves when they look upon objective beauty.

>>22248177
Forces my face against? That's quite the literary masterpiece an insult you concocted just now.

>>22253928
>>Sculpture alongside with architecture has always been the most political form of art since sculpture is created to be seen and in the case of buildings, to be used by many.
Anybody who crams politics into anything follows the atheist propaganda by the revolutionists.

>>22254183
Look, I dislike these people as much as you do, but the inherent nature of ideology to any work of art (historiography included) is an undeniable fact of its existence. Being in denial about it is just averting your eyes from the truth, concerning yourself with art while not acknowledging it would be like trying to play basketball blindfolded. Especially considering that the people you dislike are so keenly aware of it, why would you want to give them the massive advantage of you not being aware of the fact of its existence? Why would you want to throw a chess game by pretending there is no game to begin with?

>>22242305
Beksinski has a lot of good footage on youtube. Did you know?

>>22252644
based

>>22243497
>nouveau riche
term was popularized in french. In english we say new money/ old money.

>>22254339
Nouveau riche has different connotations than new money, though. Like it gives off an air of bad taste and conspicuous consumption.

>>22247941
>modern 'dante bach' etc doesnt want to talk to average retard on the street, he is working on hypersonics at raytheon or nsa,
you live in a TV show

>>22254183
It's because millennials are unable to think outside of politics. The idea that someone has to be judged based on their political aligment instead of talent or skills is deeply rooted in their brains.

>>22247553
>muh dystopian war trauma generic surrealist heavy metal cover art
>muh I do classical paintings but its like psychological trauma they are all blurry and turn into cum mid portrait
>Dali wannabe
Yeah truly 3 great modern arts, to the canon they go

>>22249543
this really isn't that good. It's a naked caucasianized asian woman holding a flute. It's not bad, but you should find something better to make your point.

>>22246419
that post only talks about modern not contemporary, dumbass.
also all of the posts ITT are only asking in terms of time and are asking "what are good artists now" not "what are good artists in the contemporary movement", using surrealism and late modern is fair.
also contemporary surrealism still exists. if you want to be a cunt that abides by contemporary categorizations of art, go look at contemporary fantasy art and magic realism.
>>22254376
anon asked for good, not canon defining. don't get your panties twisted.
be contrarian all you want but even normies like beksinski.

>>22252233
Brain Eno is a fucking moron who's only ever produced fuzzy sound slop to placate air-heads. Don't confuse his opinion for one that means anything.

>>22254352
>it gives off an air of bad taste and conspicuous consumption
so does new money, really

>>22254361
>taste is political
>the education of artists is political
>the education of art historians is political
>curating and exhibiting art is political
>art is somehow not political
???

>>22249895
This doesnt even look like a iron or stone sculpture this looks like a plastic RPG figurine that grew too big

>>22254425
The trouble with the "everything is about politics" guy is that you can sya that about anything
Evefything is swxual
Everything is psychologicak
Everything is physical
Everything is religious
Everything is biological
Everything is chemical
Everything is historical
Etc
Which begs the question why prioritize this lens to talk about art, instead of "everhthyng is about aesthetics and beauty"?

>>22254566
Do you really need to ask why the politics of art are prioritized over other aspects in an age where artists and works of art past and present are shot into the mainstream or memory holed completely based on nothing else but how well they fit into the political consensus?

>>22246161
>anon proceeds to post wikipedia facts about da vinci that everybody knows
Peak dunning-kruger effect.
He has around 20 paintings because he was a tard, he couldn't ever focus in finishing his projects. It's not that he "wasn't known as an artist", he just didn't brand himself as mainly an artist when looking for work. In Italy he was very often commissioned by nobles and rich people to paint walls, portraits, draw things and do other artistic work.

>>22249589
It is soulless. He is just aping greater artists but his art is entirely devoid of that higher thing which made their art so great in the first place.

>>22249673
No? Which aristocrats are you even talking about? There aren’t any.

>>22249680
I agree with this sentiment but it’s not the whole truth. Sure, you could imitate the beauty of traditional art but it’s still somehow missing something. Bad soil just doesn’t grow beautiful flowers. It’s not that the flowers are hidden. They just can’t be grown as beautiful.

>>22252121
>>22252233
It’s far more likely that art and architecture proceed from the same source than art from architecture in a vacuum. Even if true, it doesn’t explain the decline in architecture.

>>22241375
>t. retard that doesnt understand art

>>22242075
Marvel cmu. The big lebowski is our Sistine Chapel

>>22241144
Because nobody will pay them. Elite taste changed. Every medium sized city has at least one guy who is capable of making rich oil paintings or designing Gothic cathedrals. Even Catholic and Orthodox churches prefer gimmicky modern styles.

>>22241144
Thinking like a white man is copy right infringement and literally anuddah shoah

>>22242513
Lalit Pandit Brothers Bollywood Musicals
Misukichi Dragon Ball OST
Skyrim OST
Danny Elfman and Hans Zimmer
Arvo Part
You're not gonna like the package. There is no way to legally package greatness as greatness.

>>22241375
>Truth! there can be no merit, no craft at all, without that. And further, all beauty is in the long run only fineness of truth, or what we call expression, the finer accommodation of speech to that vision within.
Walter Pater

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPJ9g-GPa2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuO2PNxGC5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_alU-o_qDt8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2ikvX9UB-Q

>>22241144
Music publishing law
>>22241547
>>22241578
The Hills are NOT alive with the sound of music, my friends
They're going to twerk when the iPad dollar says so

>>22241144
Mein Kampf by Adolfo Carlos Chipilín DeIsrael
Myth of the 20th Century by Alfredo Rosas Vergudo

People already complain that music/movies lost their soul since like 30 yrs ago. Usually it boils down to laziness and ignorance. Deep dive into any art and find a niche that suits you and its almost impossible to not find something worthwhile. Architecture is fucked though.

>>22241144
There's so much made. The problem is that you don't even think about it, because it isn't brought to you. The sheer volume of cultural output presented and the fractured nature of the presentation surely isn't helping either.

>>22255874
>implying quality means quantity

>>22241144
There are, you just don't know of them. You don't really care, you just want to romanticize the past, which I suppose makes sense, because great works were made in the past, but they're still made now. They're all made by Christians, however, which adds another layer of obscurity to them. Be honest, anon. Have you ever really searched for modern masterpieces, or have you just looked at the ugliness of abstract and conceptual art installations and written off all of their contemporaries as being just as uninspired?

>>22255999
Quality doesn't sell for the effort, so it isn't necessarily made for money. Only the people after your money are willing to actively seek passive receivers. You wont come across quality by being passive when all of the venues for passives are manufactured with blinders included.

>>22241375
If you're gonna act like there aren't great living composers you're either disingenuous or ignorant. Even more if you're going to do the whole "muh modernism ruined everything" shit because picrel is literally a traditional Orthodox Christian and it features hugely in his work.

>>22241144
Suppose that there was a Dante living today. Would you care to read him? Would you care to sift through thousands of books in order to discover him? I don't think you will.
Also, speaking as an extremely autistic man, personally I don't get the point of architecture, painting etc. Good literature is a good thing, but no one actually cares about good literature anymore.
>>22241189
I think more importantly than that, old aristocracy used to *read* good literature. I can't be fucked to tryhard and spend 20 years of my life polishing a work if it's not only going to make me starve to death but also will not be read or appreciated by anyone.
>>22241267
The Medici were originally a peasant family. Their caste origins may be vulgar but they are at least not financial.

>>22256049
He's okay I don't know about great

>>22254608
real sick of you bloviating blowhards that like to hear themselves whinge regurgitating the same weapy hand wringing trite over and over. your post added 0 to this discussion

>>22254403
as if your doggerel is worth anything?

>>22241183
He wasn't an atheist he was actively involved in some heretical group who held John the Baptist super high. Why would an atheist risk his life like that? This is just some reddit "all scientists are godless idiots" myth based on nothing

>>22256326
You've misused the word doggerel and you've terminated a declarative sentence (fragment) with a question mark. That's a lot to get wrong is so few words. Have you considered suicide?

These fools were made to be what they were. Their forerunners set everything up so there could be greatness in their blood. Bach, Michelangelo, Mozart, all grew up in environments, strictly to foster them.

>>22241144
Capitalist mindset. Maximizing profits is not really conducive to the time it takes to make something brilliant. This is only made worse by the de-emphasis on arts as something 'less than' the soulless shit of STEM-faggotry or other normie core professions.

>>22256430
And we were too. What do you think our grandfathers and great-grandfathers were fighting for? We just let them down.

>>22256439
You grew up in an art school forced to practice?

>>22256410
thanks that answers my question

>>22256450
too embarrassed to punctuate any more? Mald harder (I'm a grammy award winning composer btw)

>>22256434
this. currently rich people only see art as either a flex in their home or a speculative trading asset.
rich artists only care about trying to start new movements to fuel their ego.
also consumerism has reduced culture to market trends, experimenting is too much risk.

>>22256449
Most of us here on this site grew up with the internet, a world of information and resources at our fingertips for free, and we used it to shitpost on image boards, jack off to porn, and act smart by rewording arguments made by men much more intelligent than us. We could've been the greatest autodidacts, but we chose comfort instead.

>>22241144
The actual answer is that you have to go through miles off red tape to build a wooden bridge let alone a statue in the town square or a cathedral. "Intellectual property" laws has stifled creative output.
But deep redditor-pol nigger analysis has boiled it down to just le rich people and/or le jews and not any particular systemic reason.

>>22256468
You're not even talking to me. This is either a bot, or an idiot.

>>22256507
Whatever, if you're going to be this stubborn, then I won't push it any further.

>>22256461
>I'm a grammy award winning composer btw

thanks for topping the thread with a laugh

>>22256551
not everyone's a loser like you

You can try Hippolyte Taine "Philosophie de L'art". Will not give you simple answers but maybe will help you extrapolate.
It pretty much confirms what was already said, that art requires metaphorical fertile land. That art can only exist in conditions that support it. That's why full of optimism renessance allowed art to bloom. What art can exist in the capitalistic hellhole ruled by psychopaths? Only the one reflecting the society in which it was created: quick, forgettable, ugly and fetishizing suffering.

>>22247398
LMAO THIS NIGGA SAID ROCOCO WAS THE PEAK!! Yall mfs love yall gluttonous excess of bland ornament so long as it's "beautiful"/divine (has gold and is extravagant as can be) huh xD

>>22243572
cant think of anything else that can enrapture people as much as anime

>>22243572
this but unironically