/lit/ - Literature

Pic related to counter OP's faggotry.

I wrote ~700 words yesterday and I feel bad about it desu. Takes me so long for such minimal output.

>>22392943
How do I get a gf like this, bros?

>>22392977
Write 700 words today and feel bad about it

Publisher said they'd love to have first dibs on any poem i write next but everything i've written over the last 2 months has been crap

>>22393030
Just take the best thing you see posted in a poetry thread

Giving it another shot.

> Crimson Dawn Part 1
> Prohibition era, Crime, Supernatural, Action, Suspense
> 6,985 words
> ~25 min read
https://files.catbox.moe/s17x8d.pdf

This is not a final draft so please provide feedback if you give it your time.

When our life fell apart, I kept telling myself things could only get better. I thought we'd grow out of it, and in some ways, we did.
We managed to grow, but it didn't last. In the end, she only got worse.

Looking back, I wasn't always bad. Smoking weed at the back gate only became appealing when a girl invited me to join in. She didn't drag me down; it was entirely different. She was sliding into hell, and I jumped in after her. I wasn't there to pull her up, I wanted to join in on the ride. I wanted to push her faster and see how many levels of hell there were.

The issue with growing up a nerd and a dork and a loser is your parents grow stagnant. They never learn to detect lies if you spend your early years telling only the truth. When you do start lying, your parents are too complacent to notice. They spend a decade and a half tracking ability compared to progression guidelines. Can he touch his toes at two months? Can he recite his ABCs by the end of grade one? Does he score in the top percentile on the state exams? Check, check, check. They know kids change but forget it happens in ways they can't read on a report card or measure with a yardstick.

I walked past the kitchen one night, a while after I'd met her. My mom was talking to my aunt, and they were drinking tea. My aunt complained my cousin was sneaking out to college parties. She asked if my mom thought her son would turn out the same. My mom said no. She knew her son was too much of a dork to be invited to that kind of thing. I went to my room and sat on my bed for a long time. I sent a message saying I'd be there at midnight. She'd been asking me for weeks.

Before then, our hangouts consisted of cigarettes and weed and lukewarm beers downed in the forest near school. I was always home before evening club hours ended. Moonlight increased our range and allowed us to make more discoveries. We were no longer bound by a 4:30 pm curfew.

She didn't get into college. No surprise there. That's what several years of drug use does to a university application. Haha, I'm joking. That would imply she'd sent any applications at all.

My insistence on a gap year was the first time I'd stood up to my parents. I had a stack of acceptance letters but told them I'd reapply later. Universities liked when you took a year off, I said. They liked when you took some time to get life experience and make sure you were interested in your field of study. Neither of them had been to college since you could afford it with a part-time job at a grocery store, so they accepted. It meant they could put off student loan applications for another year.

Fortunately for them, they'd never have to apply for those loans. They didn't realize it at the time, and I didn't either, at least not in a way I could conceptualize. But somewhere inside, I knew it wasn't only a delay in my academic career.; it was a murder. A suicide, maybe.

But damn, it felt so good at the time.

>>22393326
Enjoyable read

>>22393386
thanks. Hoping to turn it into a short story.

>>22393386
thanks. its the start of a short story im working on.

>>22393251
Okay. I enjoyed this. I found the characters interesting and felt that the scenes were driven effectively by a sense of conflict and character motivation. Jackson has a solid motivation to move up the ranks and become independent, and his past in the orphanage hints at a trauma he is trying to overcome. Striking a deal with Ringo was an interesting twist. Supernaturally gifted mafioso is a fun concept. I also enjoyed the Prohibition-era setting and felt that the atmosphere was effectively captured. I want to know what happens next. Now here are my criticisms:

1. I noticed that you sometimes don't use certain punctuation marks when you should, especially in dialogue. I wasn't sure if this was an attempt to capture dialect in some way or just a proofreading oversight. It didn't distract me too much, but other readers may get hung up on it. Examples:
>"I am Jackson Starr but I am not here to work for you.”
>"That bottle used to have the finest rum from out of the Caribbean but you would be lucky to drink anything better than shoe polish out of it by now."
In both examples, there should be a comma before "but".
>“I insist Ringo.”
Should be a comma before "Ringo".

2. What is happening on pages 9-11? We already saw Jackson get the job from Ed during the previous bar scene. Yet for some reason we travel back to "earlier that night..." and Jackson is sitting in his apartment again, receiving the briefing from Ed again. But now Ed is offering Jackson $5 instead of $10. Is it just me, or does this not make sense? Did I miss something here? Was this a different draft of the same scene that you forgot to delete? From what I can tell, nothing is accomplished in this apartment scene that isn't already accomplished in the bar scene. Maybe I completely missed something, but I found this quite confusing.

3. Maybe it's because I was skimming a little bit, but I found the action during the barroom fight somewhat confusing (up until the point where Jackson and Ringo start diving behind the tables, when it began to feel clear again for me). I was thinking that it might be improved by giving a clearer idea of the barroom's layout whenever it might benefit the reader.

4. Your writing style is clear and straightforward, in my opinion, but it might benefit from more varied sentence structure. At times, it seemed like you were using a lot of simple sentences in succession. Try to set up some more intricate sentence structures here and there. Relying too much on one kind of sentence structure runs the risk of monotony. However, I appreciate the fact that you keep the language fairly straightforward. It feels appropriate to the mood and setting. Just a little more variety might help.

>>22393860
>But now Ed is offering Jackson $5 instead of $10
*$10 instead of $5

>>22393860
I was thinking some more about point #2. Were you trying to convey in a flashback that Ed initially offered $10, before lowering it to $5 later at the bar when he briefed Jackson again (a sign of dishonesty and disrespect)? If so, I feel like the scene shouldn't reiterate so much of what we already learned in the bar scene. Ed repeats many things that Jackson already heard in the bar scene. Why would Ed repeat all of those things again at the bar, as if Jackson didn't already know? For instance, the name of Ringo's bar, the password to enter the bar, etc. It just feels like a repetitive scene at best, confusing at worst. I'm not sure why it's there, is all. There might be a good reason that I'm missing, but I thought I would point it out since there's a chance it could confuse others if it confused me.

>>22393326
Paragraph 2 needs a rewrite imo. It's choppy, and you're focusing so much on the "dragging to hell" aspect that we're not seeing how these two fell in love or even had a good time.

>>22393326
Sounds like a guy bitching to his therapist

>>22392775
Thoughts on this anons?

https://pastebin.com/ZP6nJweq

How's my prose? How's my ability to conjure imagery? Is it scary? Is it difficult to read without wincing (which is my aim)? Would you say the writing is professional quality?

Thanks for your time. :)

If you guys want more, I can post more two. The draft is totally done-- about 16k words.

Anons, I remember finding a word bank of sorts that had a bunch of different character expressions.
>He furrowed his brow
>He blinked
>He tapped his foot
etc. I can't find it and was wondering if anyone knew of something like this that they could link. It would be much appreciated.

I need your opinions
Here's the situation (a little vague, because context doesn't matter too much and would take a long time to explain in full)
>main character makes a huge mistake that kicks off the story
>as a result of said mistake a team of people he is working with (some he likes, some he doesn't) will most likely die (it is ambiguous, but implied)
>even though it is too late, he realizes the mistake he made and quickly gets on the way to tell his boss (who he doesn't have a good relationship with) about it
would do you think it would have more impact in terms of guilt, if he arrives at his team, has an unpleasant confrontation with the boss, has to go get something to start mitigating the consequences and on his way to do so, the consequences start unfolding on the way and he never sees any of his team again; Or if the consequences unfold earlier and he never even gets to his team?
I feel like the latter is better at showing instead of telling, there is no need for his boss to yell at him that he fucked up if I can just show it immediately. But I think it could also be interesting if the last interaction he ever had with his team was an unpleasant one, that might weigh on his conscience a lot more

>>22394546
>But I think it could also be interesting if the last interaction he ever had with his team was an unpleasant one, that might weigh on his conscience a lot more
Go with this. The what ifs and maybes and coulda woulda should've are always poignant

dialog sucks
I just want to describe places and things and feelings

>>22394622
Then why don't you try writing a story without dialogue? Lean into your passion.

>>22394639
I'm sure when I get more practice in and feel less lost, I'll start enjoying it
But right now I'm finding it very hard to 1) give each character a distinct voice and 2) writing dialog that advances plot without feeling like it only exists to advance the plot

>>22394622
dialogue is just an extension of thoughts and feelings, treat it as such and it becomes much easier.

>>22394622
That's funny because I don't want to describe any of those things.

I'd prefer the reader be able to pick these out from the dialogue.
I mean, what conveys the idea better?
>He was exasperated and furious
or
>"Wha- Seriousl- You stupid motherfucker"

>>22394649
>2) writing dialog that advances plot without feeling like it only exists to advance the plot
You know your characters (presumably), the reader doesn't. Presumably, neither do other characters. Do these characters have any reason to care or want to know something about themselves? Or are they all antisocial introvert assholes? You can reveal as little or as much as you want in dialogues.

>>22394622
Descriptions suck. I just want to write pure dialogue. I don't care what anyone is wearing or what kind of furniture the room has

>>22394841
>I don't care what anyone is wearing or what kind of furniture the room has
Does anyone? That's what I'm wondering - does anyone actually care what flooring or IKEA furnishing the place you are reading about has? I only leave vivid descriptions if it's actually important to the character.

>>22394861
>>22394841
Most books are read by women and women care about these things.

>>22394803
>He was exasperated and furious
>"Wha- Seriousl- You stupid motherfucker"

I'm sure you could think up other, better ways. The top isn't good, but the bottom is dumb anime writing too.

>>22394841
>>22394861
Setting the scene is an art form. It's not about listing pointless furniture for the sheer hell of it. You indirectly establish the whole mood and importance of the scene through the things you mention and the way you describe them. You can reveal countless things about the characters' personalities and tendencies, or details about the world and the state its in through a couple of lines about linoleum and flowerpots. A sterile chatlog can become a soothing afternoon break, or an intense test of nerves, depending on how the environment is built around the characters involved. You will never be worth anything as a writer before you understand this.

https://pastebin.com/u6qFebyz
I'm new to this, any advice? Thanks in advance.

>>22394974
Exposition-heavy, not engaging. Also, I could swear I've seen at least a dozen samples here that include "as the sun's rays..." I think I'm going insane.

>>22394841
Write plays then.

>>22394508
It's clearly written and easy to read. The imagery is strong and gets you wincing, sure. But...I think you ham it up a bit too much. It feels like the narrator laughs at Neville alongside his tormentors and it gets more comical than scary.

>>22394508
Hard to picture what's happening. I though the boy was on the ground outside. Then there is a dinner table, so I imagined them in a living room, maybe they come to his place to torture him. Then there is a crowd? Wtf how big is that living room.

Same with the finger, they got carved off, with what? It seems too easy, described too rapidly.

>>22394953
>You can reveal countless things about the characters' personalities and tendencies, or details about the world and the state its in through a couple of lines about linoleum and flowerpots.
No. You really can't. Because you can't do that in real life.
You wouldn't get much more than "a man lives here" from my room. It's messy. Cramped. Full of clothes, various food items stack off to the side. What does this tell you? Nothing. Describing this is pointless.
I describe the abject poverty most people live in, and then describe how one character has a nice, clean and rich-looking apartment. This is indicative of something immediately.

So why should I describe everyone's fucking flowerpots or lack thereof? So women are happy? I don't give a fuck. I write for myself, for people who will enjoy my writing, and maybe everyone else who wants to give it a read, women included. Ironically, I think a lot of women would enjoy what I write, but I'm not going to browse through a fucking post-civil-war IKEA catalogue to furnish one shitty room the story won't return to with no further relevance to the story.

>>22394930
>The top isn't good, but the bottom is dumb anime writing too
Well good thing I used exaggerated off the top of my head examples to illustrate a point.

>>22395065
>What does this tell you? Nothing.

I really hope you're only pretending to be retarded now. There are probably birds more intelligent than you are.

>>22395088
Hang up more Live Love Laugh plaques on your wall, traveloid.

>>22395074
>I-it was bad on purpose!

>>22395092
>on purpose
More like I'm not going to try for a 30 second post.

>>22395094
If you're gonna be this insecure about other people's opinions of you, then maybe you should put more effort into your examples next time. If you actually are capable of any better, that is.

>>22395101
I'm smelling a projection here.

>>22395018
Thanks so much for your feedback, anon! I am very glad so much of it worked. As for it becoming 'comical', I definitely am trying to make the villains as astonishingly vile as possible (for thematic purposes). That being said, I think it would seem less hammy had you read the 10k words leading up to this point. Time is spent making Neville sympathetic.

I will revisit the section though, to see if there's anything I can change to prevent the sequence becoming silly. :)

Thanks again for your feedback.

>>22395061
Probably a symptom of you just being sent one paragraph from the final act of the piece.

Prior to the paragraph you were sent, there is a whole paragraph describing the enormous, opulent dining room Neville's torture takes place in.

Thanks for your time and your comments anon, I really appreciate it. :)

>>22395194
>:)
>>22395201
>:)
Knock it off.

>>22395263
.

>>22395263
Nigger

>>22395279
>>22395288
You don't belong here.

>>22395279

>>22395297

>>22393326
>two clichés in the first two sentences

>>22394841
“Wanna bang?” she asked.
“Depends,” I said
“Depends on what?”
“Depends on who will do the banging.” I looked at the bump on her skirt.
“Scared?”
“Somewhat.”
“Never been with someone like me before?”
“I have.”
“It didn’t go well?”
“Don’t remember.”
“Who did the banging?”
“I try to convince myself it was me.”
“Drunk?”
“Wasted.”
She laughed. “No wonder.”
“No wonder what?”
“No wonder you don’t remember me.”
I raised my brow.
“You don’t have to remember tonight either if you don’t want to.” She poured me a glass.
“Do you always get men wasted before you fuck them up the bum?”
“Only the uncooperative ones.”
“Somebody ought to throw you in jail.”
“For trying to fuck you up the bum?”
“For lying.”
“What am I lying about?”
“Don’t know. Haven’t decided yet.”
I emptied the glass and tried to keep it empty as she kept filling it. By the time I was seeing double she had already cleared the tab.
“Somebody ought to put you in jail,” I said.
“For lying?” she asked.
“For trying it fuck me up the bum.”
“Is it working?”
“Depends.”
“Depends on what?”
“Depends on whether I’ll remember tonight.”

>>22394508
It's silly. You are presenting a horrific situation with no build up, so the reader is not invested in the character at all. Strange word choice and excessive adjectives make it seem comical.

>>22394861
>I only leave vivid descriptions if it's actually important to the character.
I feel for fantasy or sci fi, it's required to describe the setting. Just 'an apartment' is fine, because the reader has been inside one, but 'a castle' or a 'space ship' need more details.

>>22393251
>rapping of a fist beat
>muffled roars
>muffled voice
>The man’s eyebrows perked up.
>His eyebrows perked.
>He stood his ground like they told him to and now he had a broken hand and he would pay out to a protection racket
Faggot.

>>22395418
>statement
>laconic question
>laconic answer
Gotta vary up the rhythm a bit. I know this style of "snappy" dialogue comes easily and sounds pretty good, but it becomes monotonous after a while.

>>22395458
>it's required to describe the setting
Not necessarily. Depends how fantastical the place is. Most anyone knows how a a castle looks like. Most anyone knows how a peasant house might look like.

Now, how does a dwarven castle look like? An elf peasant house? What's the difference between a wyvern and a dragon? Do the people dress in a manner that stands out?

Do not assume the viewer (reader) is retarded, but also do not assume he's all-knowing. If you have sword and board fantasy with a little magic, you can safely assume people dress in a fashion (heh) coherent with medieval times. Unless you strictly say otherwise. Do your elves NOT have pointy ears? Are your dwarves NOT short? You might want to mention that. Otherwise everyone will just assume they're rough-languaged bearded midgets with a penchant for axes and mountains. And that your elves are faggy and love trees and bows.

>>22395799
Are you an ESL? Honest question. Not making fun of you.

>>22395065
>What does this tell you? Nothing.
It tells us you're depressed and have no purpose in life.
...you DID realize that, didn't you?

>>22395886
>you can't create a narrative or character from environmental context!
>accidentally does both
Kinda funny
>>22395065
If you don't instinctively and automatically make assumptions about another persons life and personality from how their home looks, you probably have the tism

>>22395458
We've all read books and seen movies and tv shows, we know what a castle look like, we know what a spaceship look like, however there can be many different types of castles, is it a cold dark medieval fortress or a luxurious, renaissance palace, and there be many different types of spaceship, is it a realistic thing like the ISS where directions make no sense, is it a meandrous labyrinth like in Alien, or just an analogue of a boat, a plane or a military base like in Star Wars

>>22395885
Yes, I am. And I'm aware it's the lack of the.

>>22395906
I don't make assumptions about anyone except by how they act.
I am simply not easily deceived.

>>22395886
>It tells us you're depressed and have no purpose in life.
Congratulations, you got it completely fucking wrong.
You know what it tells you? I prefer organized chaos and I'm fucking lazy. That's it. You don't need 1000 IQ to figure this out.

>>22395934
Weird quirk I started to notice

>>22396113
Interesting. But you can safely chalk it up to groups like young slavs having a good grasp of english but not being perfect.

That being said some native speakers actually handle it worse than ESLs.

>>22395938
>I am simply not easily deceived.
The world must certainly look like a deceitful, random place in the eyes of someone with room temperature IQ

>>22396193
Yeah. Imagine having opinions of someone because of how they look. Or what furniture they picked out.

Can't believe retards like that exist.

Just finished our latest project. If anyone needs a cheap editor, shoot me a message saying you're from /lit/ so I can give you a discount.

https://www.fiverr.com/matthewg42

>>22395523
Ah, repetitive. Noted.

>>22396201
What kind of person lives here? Hint. An author.

>>22396344
>An author.
An author lives in a bugpod or a van. You're deluded if you think you'll make money off writing.

>>22396356
That narrows it down then, doesn't it?

>that feel when some random person in the world liked your book

>>22396408
It is a comfy feeling.

>>22396227
May I shoot you this: >>22393251?

It's not a complete book but if you could help me hammer out early flaws that I can carry forward for the rest of the book.

>>22396555
I have a feeling it's a stinky 'jeet desperate for $5 otherwise he'd do it for free.

>>22395945
i think you lack self-awareness
what motivates the laziness, then? not depression?

>>22396356
Andy Weir sure made money off writing.

>>22396344
You mean a dead author.
That was Terry Goodkind's house.

>>22396581
>what motivates the laziness, then?
Probably high IQ which makes me try to do least work possible to retain energy.

Again, I smell projection. Try assuming shit less. You say retarded shit like someone's house being indicative of who they are and then you wonder and complain that writing dialogues is hard - you literally don't interact with real people whatsoever outside of your family. Hell, maybe not even your own family.

>>22396600
>complain that writing dialogues is hard
not that anon
are you sure about that high iq?
in my experience, people that talk about how smart they are...tend to be insecure midwits.

>>22396674
>asks for possible cause
>I give possible cause
>YOU ARE DUMB
Okay nigger.

>>22396600
>You say retarded shit like someone's house being indicative of who they are
what the fuck are you talking about
conveying subtext is basic stuff, anon

>>22396696
so you're not concerned that your slovenly living conditions are a breeding ground for silverfish and bedbugs?

>>22396707
>silverfish and bedbugs?
Do you realize that you have to bring both in? And I'm not some sort of filthy beaner?
>>22396698
Conveying subtext works if there is subtext to be conveyed. I'm not about to write an entire paragraph consisting of furniture and flowerpots on a character's room that will show up exactly once to deliver some exposition and progress the story.

>>22396752
>I'm not about to write an entire paragraph consisting of furniture and flowerpots on a character's room that will show up exactly once to deliver some exposition and progress the story.
This is holding you back as a writer and you will never improve until you get over whatever retardation makes you think this is unacceptable.

>>22396778
>This is holding you back as a writer
Said the guy who literally didn't see my fucking writing.
Seriously are you baiting me? Or is this retardation legitimate? If you want to stuff a room full of beautiful descriptions of furniture and dress your characters in Gucci shit feel free, but that's not my writing.

I feel like character's homes and clothing is implicit. Nobody is naked. No room is unfurnished. In cities, there are people, outside of cities, there aren't. This is all implied, and the default state until you as a writer make it not be so.

If how the character's home looks is unimportant, why the fuck would I write it? Have you ever heard of Chekov's gun?

>>22396591
Should have said image search is cheating.

I remember seeing a pic of him at his house in some magazine article and thinking 'That is the house of a serial killer. There is definitely a sex dungeon in the basement.'

I sat around for 2 hours and wrote a single page. I'll never finish this story

>>22396787
Chekov only wrote plays and short stories though. In short forms parsimony is essential, in long forms it's constricting.

>>22396863
Erroneous detail with no bearing on the story is tiring. As a writer you have to juggle attention vs detail. If you pack your book with shitton of detail about completely meaningless fucking shit, nobody will read your thing to completion, let alone past first few pages.

>>22396874
Completely wrong, of course, as most classic literature can attest.

>>22396983
>classic literature
I'm not trying to write some pseud "intellectual" masturbatory aid. I'm trying to get a good story across.

I've been writing 1,000 words for the past two weeks. It's rough, it's a patchwork, but it's progress.

When should I take it to the next level?

>>22396752
>>silverfish and bedbugs
i tire of this argument with an obvious pseud, so here's my last reply.
silverfish can get in through your attic, or inside of books you bring from outside.
bedbugs can hitchhike on your shoes.
not to mention any mold that may be growing in that unkempt pile you're so fond of. do you live in a humid area?
bottom line...you're a midwit slob. plus you seem to be racist.

Doomsday Clown Time is Up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg2pS9KN28U

>>22397064
The world isn't the problem. And I'm not going to flee from the world and country I love like a goddamned coward. The problem is the haters. Always has been, but won't always will be. Haters are an infinitely small percentage of the world. How they work is by falsely magnifying their importance. When people find out they're nothing, they will be exterminated. Zero sum losers is what they are. Play zero-sum games, win zero-sum prizes.

They can't create and cooperate, so they turn creative and cooperative games into competitive ones, manufacturing division so they can exploit it for power and profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzlyUZoVPGU

THEY WILL ALL BE EXTERMINATED!

I do not know the form The Final Harvest will take, but I know that it will happen, because it must. Life is finding a way. You reap what you sow. Simple as. Reality's rules, not mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0msq79ai7c

>>22397059
>get in through your attic
Don't have one.
>books
>paper
Lmao.
>hitchhike on boots
I don't walk through shitholes.
>you seem to be racist
I'm not, I just hate niggers.

Doomsday Clown Time is Up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg2pS9KN28U

>>22397080

>>22397080
The world isn't the problem. And I'm not going to flee from the world and country I love like a goddamned coward. The problem is the haters. Always has been, but won't always will be. Haters are an infinitely small percentage of the world. How they work is by falsely magnifying their importance. When people find out they're nothing, they will be exterminated. Zero sum losers is what they are. Play zero-sum games, win zero-sum prizes.

They can't create and cooperate, so they turn creative and cooperative games into competitive ones, manufacturing division so they can exploit it for power and profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzlyUZoVPGU [Embed]

THEY WILL ALL BE EXTERMINATED!

I do not know the form The Final Harvest will take, but I know that it will happen, because it must. Life is finding a way. You reap what you sow. Simple as. Reality's rules, not mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0msq79ai7c

>>22397085
I just went on a walk to the lake near my house. I watched a solitary duck 20 feet away from me just enjoying life in harmony with nature, bathing, washing herself, just chilling and doing nothing but enjoying the beauty and serenity of life. I broke down in tears of complete sorrow from the ongoing systematic destruction of our biosphere and the priceless living beings it is comprised of. All I could think is "I am so sorry." All of these billionares and their politicians will be pulled out of their mansions and slaughtered in the streets like the pigs they are. Their entire families will be exterminated - wipe their precious bloodlines out, utterly destroy every trace of their legacy.

Death to the life haters and world destroyers! Death to the Republican traitors! Death to all fascists and straight supremacists! They all deserve to suffer infinitely for all eternity. It will be the kindest act of mercy that they are merely erased instead.

>>22397096
https://old.reddit.com/r/NarrativeDynamics/comments/15qcnkl/i_am_the_original_memetic_warrior/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmwXkJV_B-w

>>22397096
>>>/pol/ is that way

>>22397107
Please do not send schizophreniacs to /pol/. Direct them to /b/, /x/, nearest train tracks or a mental institution instead.

>>22397085
>replies to himself
schizo

The least unhinged leftist.

Reads "virus 45", thinks it's about an actual physical virus and not ha ha funny quip towards Drumfpmftfy, proceeds to masturbate to the word zero-sum with no grasp what it actually means, has 0 grasp what memetics mean or are.

>>22395523
How about this?

It was after noon at Paddy’s Roaring Twenties Tavern when a fist beat on Patrick “Paddy” Brennan’s door. It broke the muffled roars of the automobiles on the street. A drop of sweat trickled down the cheek of the frozen “Paddy” Brennan. He looked over and grabbed a cheap five-shooter he bought earlier that week.
An el train ran by with its blowing horn. The rapping picked up and a voice shouted from the other side of the door. The el train was gone and the voice became louder by comparison. Whoever it was, he would wake the dead or worse, alert the cops. Paddy pulled back the hammer and walked up to the door. He slid open the peephole and pointed his revolver at the door but out of sight.
A tall man in his mid-twenties stood there wearing a rich, dark red fedora and a grin on his face. He looked down from the last step before the door to the bar.
“Paddy Brennan?”
“No. There’s no one here by that name.”
“Oh, that’s strange.”
“Strange?”
“Yeah, I been looking for a Paddy Brennan for a good hour and then what do you know I found this alleyway tucked back here away from the street. Maybe it’s just a coincidence but I might suspect that something fishy is-”
“Okay. Fine. Just get in here.” Paddy shut the peephole and opened the door. The man stepped in. He wore a rich, deep red vest with matching Oxford bag trousers. The first thing to greet him was Paddy’s five-shooter. The man’s eyes widened. He raised his hands to his shoulders, palms out, “Hey, whoa, aren’t we in a rush?”
Paddy sneered and clenched his teeth. “I’ve had enough of scum like you coming here trying to cut into my business.”
The man turned his chin up. “Well what a coincidence Paddy. I want to help you, that’s all. My boss wants to help you.”
Paddy leered. “Who?”
“Boss is Ed Bononi. I bet you heard of him. Me? Jackson Starr, at your service.”
“What service?”
Jackson pointed to himself with his thumb. “I keep the bad guys out of this joint. You join Bononi and he’ll have this place protected 24/7 and the cops won’t ever know.”
“I know what you’re trying and I ain’t falling for it.” Paddy backed away from Jackson for his bar.
“Falling for what?” Jackson followed Paddy. “I’m-”
Brennan shot Jackson. Jackson stumbled back. He caught a pool table to keep on his feet. His grin was gone. His eyes could have glowed red.
Paddy kept his aim on Jackson. “I’m not paying out to nobody! This is my bar! Get out of here!”

>>22397132
“Why the hell did you do that Paddy?” A deeper hue of red formed underneath Jackson’s vest. Jackson ran up to Paddy. Paddy took another shot but Jackson diverted Paddy by turning his wrist to the ceiling. The two men struggled for control of the revolver. More shots fired.
“You idiot!” said Jackson. He pointed Paddy’s aim at a window, “You want the cops to hear us?”
“Get out!”
“You made me do this, Paddy!”
Something in Paddy gave. For a moment he did not understand what. He let go of the revolver. It was Jackson’s now. Paddy looked at his fingers. They each knuckle popping out of place and turned all the way backwards. The pain was so intense he had no voice for a few seconds.
Jackson punched Paddy in the mouth, knocking him on his rear. Jackson pointed the revolver at Paddy. Paddy broke and cried at the pain of his hand.
“You could have said, ‘Yeah,’ you know, but then you had to shoot me.” Jackson squeezed his eyes shut and groaned for a moment before continuing. “You made me do that to you. Now I gotta do this.”
Paddy watched as Jackson held the five-shooter between his palms. He squeezed the revolver and crumpled it like a wad of paper. This display destroyed the last of Paddy’s will to fight.
Jackson held the ball of crumpled revolver up, ready for an overhand swing, “So what’s it gonna be, Paddy? Me, or the bulls out there?”
Paddy threw his arms up to protect himself. “Bononi! Bononi, dammit, Bononi!”
“Damn right,” said Jackson. He threw the balled up revolver at Paddy, knocking him in the ribs. It would leave a bruise but Paddy’s hand was another matter. Every joint was in pain but he did not want Jackson to offer to reverse it.
Jackson winced as he walked to the door. He clutched his chest. “Bononi will send somebody here within the week. Better have that first payment and it better not be in lead!” Jackson opened the door with a bloody hand and slammed the door shut. Paddy heard him walk up the steps and vanish into the hustle and bustle of Chicago. Paddy curled up in pain, tears welling. They told him to stand his ground but now he had a broken hand and still lost control of his bar.

>>22397129
Mind viruses are much worse than biological ones.

https://vimeo.com/129609470

Meme Wars I: Memetic Entities
Published June 2, 2015.
14 days before Trump announced his presidential bid.
Before the meme war catapulted Trump into the White House and conjured a memetic pandemic of apocalyptic proportions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbdhr7fZVxI

>>22395418
>“Depends on who will do the banging.” I looked at the bump on her skirt.
>“Scared?”
This doesn't work all too well if you ask me, because the point of this writing is to convey a dialogue in the most direct and unfiltered way possible, but the speaker becomes ambiguous at times like this, which detracts from the clarity and directness much more than a slightly more verbose description would.

I get goosebumps reading the stuff I've already written, it's just so cool.

>>22397204
Based!

The setting is two people having lunch with fruit and tea in an encampment deep in the rainforest.
Does this exchange sound too unprofessional considering it's supposed to be happening between professionals?

>>22397221
That first line after the quote is terrible. It may be my impression, but narrator going "you" is extremely jarring. You? Who? Me? Do I know you? Do YOU know me? How?

This works in stories that are supposed to be records or logs, but not traditional stories.

Also literally anything goes "between professionals", it's a matter of character, environment and personality. In an office, I think most people would raise an eyebrow at this.

https://discord.gg/N37M9Ny

>>22397246
Why did this slow general suddenly fill up with trannies and schizos? Are you faggot trooners raiding from somewhere? You will never be women. Your parents will use your real name on your headstone and archeologists will be able to tell from your bones you were a man. Give it up. Accept you are a man. Be manly.

>>22397236
Thanks for the input.
I've used the "made you believe" there as a turn of phrase, "you" referring to someone hypothetical, though I'll be sure to look into it and see how common it actually is.

>>22397304
Use hypothetical "one" instead of "you". Much less jarring.

>>22397132
Better I guess.

/wg/, I keep feeling like I have too much information to convey in my novel and not enough space in the already-solidified plot to include it all before it becomes relevant.

like, for example, my current chapter is pretty basic in principle: the mc is being given magic lessons as a friend when a bitchy girl shows up to drop off some treasure she found, and leaves it in the hands of her bullying victim. the mc is pulled away to help with some chores but he hears a scream and runs back to find that the valuable was a mimic and has ransacked the house and escaped. the chapter ends on him convincing the bullying victim to help him hunt it down. however there's so much else to convey on top of that

>the friend's obsessive attempts to explain magic using phd-level physics
>a brief overview of how the mc's transmutation magic works, and how it could potentially replace his amputated arm
>the mc's ongoing attempts to make his rations not taste like ass through mundane and magical means, all of which ended up with him going to bed hungry
>an explanation of a painting in the team leader's room
>the bullying victim's panic attacks and fear of being thrown out.
>like 20 other characterization details

>>22397304
It's the 'generic you' and it's the least jarring part of that sentence.

>>22397347
I'd love to hear your thoughts on what sounds jarring and why if you can be bothered to type it out.

New draft. Cut it down by nearly five hundred words. Cleaned it up.

> Crimson Dawn Part 1
> Prohibition era, Crime, Supernatural, Action, Suspense
> 6,511 words
> ~25 min read
https://files.catbox.moe/lcpepf.pdf

>>22397372
The banana thing is weird, but I assume there's something earlier to justify it. The sentence is too ungainly. Mix of a participle "devoured" with past perfect "having been thrown"sounds bad. Excessive words.

>She asked more casually than the first banana would make you think. The soft bits were devoured, the peel thrown to the earth.
Something like that.
Say it out loud to check if it's a tongue twister.

Also too many gestures and actions after every bit of dialogue turns it into a pantomime. It's tiring to read.

>she had an expression that made me think passive aggressive and a tone that betrayed that expression
What is going on here? Whatever you're trying to say, there's a better way to do it.

>>22397221
They're fucking devouring bananas and it's really distracting. You could have entire conversation set along (slowly) eating a single banana let alone three. These people sound like professional idiots.

>>22397438
Thanks for taking the time to type it out.
The banana thing, together with a few things that she said before the snippet, is a way to show that the colleague has a bigger appetite than the narrator.
The two are sitting at a table, and the descriptions are of the colleague devouring bananas.
>mix of participle with past perfect sounds bad
Point taken.
>excessive words
I disagree, I don't only want to describe what's happening plainly and in general terms, and I believe it's worth using more words, even if it means ending up with a lot of them.
>too many gestures and actions
Do you have an example of a dialogue where both the words and actions of characters are reported that doesn't read as stiff/exaggerated to you?
To me what I wrote seems like a somewhat description of what the characters are doing during their conversation, with hardly an abundance of gestures and actions.
>what's going on here?
The colleague is taking offense to the fact that the narrator has done something that seems to her like he was slacking off while she was hard at work, but she doesn't want to confront him all that much, so instead of telling him that she's angry at him she keeps looking down at her banana and her teacup, asking the question with a passive aggressive tone and an annoyed expression, which the narrator can see, because he's looking straight at his colleague, and he can correctly interpret her tone as passive aggressive, solidifying the interpretation that the expression on her face was, indeed, of passive-aggressiveness.
>>22397468
Thanks for the input.
Only the colleague is devouring bananas, while the narrator is slowly going through one, which he later finishes as his colleague's finishing her fourth.
>it's distracting
Why?
It's easy enough for me to picture them having that conversation while eating, so I honestly don't get why it's distracting.

>>22397346
strip it down to the bare minimum and divulge anything else only when its needed. you don't need to explain everything

>>22392775
I always found it hard to believably write characters that "drive people away with their cynical and mean-spirited jokes out of fear of intimacy and getting close to others". Because do people like that even exist irl?

>>22397547
Yes. Me. But it's also a filter.

The people who can put up with me are really nice.

>>22397532
>Only the colleague is devouring bananas, while the narrator is slowly going through one, which he later finishes as his colleague's finishing her fourth
So, I have to ask, is the whole banana exercise just a way of you telling the reader in a roundabout way that the girl is a slut?
Antonio is the first banana she devoured. Smith was the second. The narrator was the third banana, but when she was outside he was inside so she thinks he cheated on her. He then insults her so she's going to be moving on to the fourth banana.
Anyway there's way too much movement after every single line of dialogue it's like they're covered in fire ants.

>listen to Sanderson's lectures
>he cannot go 5 minutes without spoiling events in his own books
>I haven't read them

>>22397645
he's doing you a favor
probably. I haven't read them either

Is there another word for "Execution Grounds"?

>>22397662
the area itself, not sure. you could use gallows, or gibbet, or headsman's block

>>22397662
Chopping block. Gallows. Whatever.

Is there anything wrong with the format of dialogue-heavy scenes, characters moving from place to place (places implied far apart, unless not) and then more dialogue-heavy scenes with a little exposition and worldbuilding inbetween?

>>22397662
You can do something with Golgotha if you're into that
Probably not though

>>22397755
Golgotha was a trashpile.

>>22397680
>>22397678
none of them work for my story. I can't think of a name where leaders send people to get whacked.

>>22397641
It's not, the girl is a slut but that's beyond the point, Antonio is their employer and Smith is the narrator, she hasn't had sex with either of them, she definitely won't have sex with the former and probably also not with the latter even as the story progresses.
They're just bandanas, what's important is that the colleague has an appetite and gobbles down food at an almost comical rate, which is important to characterize her as an unrefined woman who doesn't care about being seen as unrefined, at least by the narrator.
>too much movement
Do you have an example of a dialogue where both the words and actions of characters are reported that doesn't read as stiff/exaggerated to you?
To me what I wrote seems like a somewhat accurate description of what the characters are doing during their conversation, with hardly an abundance of gestures and actions, less than one per line on average in fact.

>>22397803
*they're just bananas
I don't know what I was thinking.

>>22397777
If it's a well know area, even if only to the leader and those he sends to execute people, he could colloquially call it something simple like the "place" or "spot". I can picture a mafia boss or similar telling his subordinate to take someone to
>"the place"
Or simplify it further and have him turn to the executor and say
>"You know where to take him"

>>22397830
known*

>>22397803
>Do you have an example of a dialogue where both the words and actions of characters are reported that doesn't read as stiff/exaggerated to you?
You shouldn't report every fidget. That's my point. It's fucking annoying. The best example of a clear, multi-character conversation I can think of is in Catch-22, when Clevenger is being interrogated by the 3 member panel. Their emotions are conveyed by the dialogue, with only a few descriptions of movement. It's pages 48-51 of this pdf.
https://files.catbox.moe/pvegf9.pdf

You need to make it so the dialogue conveys the meaning on it's own as much as possible. In your posted example you could probably cut half the stage direction movement and lose none of the meaning of the conversation. Or you change it so there are strings of dialogue, and then you pause to have your mc think whatever it is he thinks before getting back to the dialogue. Stopping each and every line to interject with a quip or an aside is jarring.

>>22397532
The colleague is taking offense to the fact that the narrator has done something that seems to her like he was slacking off while she was hard at work, but she doesn't want to confront him all that much, so instead of telling him that she's angry at him she keeps looking down at her banana and her teacup, asking the question with a passive aggressive tone and an annoyed expression, which the narrator can see, because he's looking straight at his colleague, and he can correctly interpret her tone as passive aggressive, solidifying the interpretation that the expression on her face was, indeed, of passive-aggressiveness.
Jesus Christ. I can tell you enjoy big ugly sentences.
>she had an expression that made me think passive aggressive and a tone that betrayed that expression
>Her expression and tone betrayed her passive aggressiveness
Even that's too wordy. Just say 'she stifled her anger' or 'she failed to sound calm' or something.


>with hardly an abundance of gestures and actions.
It's after every single piece of dialogue. And these are short, back and forth sentences. Do you not see how it interrupts the flow and makes it staccato?

Are you familiar with the idea of a 'call back' in comedy? Mention the banana at the very beginning of the conversation. Let it breathe. Then have her toss down the peel at the final 'fuck you'.

>>22397777
Is the setting yours? If so just make up your own word. Free world-building.

>>22397884
>she failed to sound calm
Avoid passive voice.

>>22397739
Why can't you put exposition and worldbuilding into the dialogue itself?

>>22397961
But I do.

>>22397974
Then what's the problem?

I want to write erotica, nut I don't want to write to women
Is this at all financially viable?

>>22398185
Define what you mean by financially viable. Erotica for men is undoubtedly the smaller market, but it's obviously possible for some number of people to make a living from it. But it's low odds. Then again, all writing is low odds. So what are you asking?

>>22398200
I hate my job and love writing
If I can output more at a higher quality than the average erotica writer, can I realistically make a life of it?

I just finished the first draft of my first chapter in my first book,

Am I a real writer yet?

>>22398332
yes. and with erotica, just like litrpg or romance or whatever else, output > quality. just make sure your quality iexceeds a relatively low bar and then pump up the volume

>>22398350
Okay, thanks
Wish me luck bros

>>22398336
No. The hardest part is finishing a book. Only then can you claim your title. Something like 97% of wannabe authors never complete a book.

Is a fake "Christianity" off limits when writing?

>>22397532
I want you to try and eat bananas at the speed she is while saying her conversation. Keep one banana as the timer on the conversation.

>>22397946
Explain to me how that's passive.

>>22398185
Do you usually have a boner while writing?

>>22395311
Can you elaborate on a way you'd maybe give the same meaning but say it in a better way? Or is it the intro part itself?

>>22395418
I would agree with other anon that the bump in skirt isn't super clear maybe unless someone is really familiar with it. Maybe add another feature to ephasise or reflect. Maybe even leave it until later and say the vision distortion blurred out the stubble

>>22392775
This is where it ends. This is the common terminus, diffused throughout history, of hundreds of peoples and tribes. It unites the oppressed in heaven. Some paucal grouping of Jews leaving the inner workings of the *Shoah* in mass exodus was more a fluke of what was typically Nazi perfectionism than a beautiful swansong to the persistence of the *yidishkayt* found in the Franco–Russo–Weimar Ashkenazim. Not for lack of sleight or knowledge: any reader need not turn more than the title page of the *Popol Vuh* to find the Quiché sinking in the sorry state the Spaniards had set upon them after raping their Guatemalan plains and women and children and mountains and then shitting out gargantuan steaming croquembouches of metallic shit in the valley villages between those mountains, and so there laid neatly in the preamble an acknowledgement from some Mayan source that in writing is prosperity and a finality of zigzagged oral provenance; *a fin de cuentas*, who among the Quiché *or* the Spaniards knew, other than a nebulous soon, how long until the Lord’s supper would be spread across the scraggy Mesoamerican isthmus? and how thickly?

unconnected excerpt:

At around three in the morning, a luminous orb rose over the horizon in the east and planted itself loosely on a trajectory of crawling altitude and azimuth, one towards the infinite and the other reaching just beyond the northern zero. By now the partygoers, even Victor’s elaphantine friend the Hammer, had forgone the fits of gregarious frenzy born at the first influx of guests into the reception area and instead sat in silence and lay supine in overdue siestas on the xeric desert floor. Forty winks unobliged. Oppie, who had been uncharacteristically teetotalling this night of his estranged sister’s wedding away because of one subpar martini (after which he realized this would not be it), his ass sunken sorrily into his lawn chair, watched the UFO slowly crawl across the sky closer and closer, minute by minute, towards where he estimated the lab lay in the distance, until his paranoia became so dense that it erupted in a nervous paroxysm of physical tantrum. He ran, jumping over the lying attendees like the first stone successfully jillicked by a tot, unsteady but certain and dedicated in his prance, and he arrived at Victor, who was drunkenly retuning one of the klezmer’s fiddles, to tell him in a harsh whisper with absolute surety and that ocular gleam which indicates some sort of temporary possession that —the Japs, or that’s how Victor would always retale the quote once he had comfortably become a regular in his fifties at the *MacCarty’s Bottomless Keg* pub in Sussex, Massachusetts, —have sent aliens to invade Los Alamos.

>>22398707
complete utter nonsense. I learned long ago that writing isn't a self-masturbatory usage of words used incorrectly. It's a method to express your thoughts to others in the most concise and simplest terms.

>>22396555
feel free to message me on fiverr, i just finished editing a textbook about stem cells and am free this week. if you mention you're from /lit/, i can give you a discount

>>22396555
Don't bother. Am editor that spends all his time shilling on 4chan isn't going to help. If he was good, people would seek him out amd the shill spam says he would be awful to work with because he's a retard. Anyone promoting services for sale should be banned

Is there a risk of someone stealing your book and publish it themselves when you give it to people and ask for feedback? How would you definitively prove it's yours? I could show my draft, but the other person could theoretically make his own draft based on my book and then it's his word against mine.

>>22395432
Thank you for your feedback anon.

I regret that you found the excerpt you read to be so flawed. I will bear your criticisms in mind going forward. :)

>>22398013
I don't know, I was asking if there is a problem with a format like that, nigger. There might be some issues with dialogue-heavy and sparse worldbuilding point-to-point travel stories.

>>22398185
>nut

>>22398495
No, but there are very many ways you can do this. What are you looking for?

>>22398495
Do you want to convey some messages of Christianity while not calling it Christianity because it's fantasy, or do you just want to tip your fedora?

If you want to tip your fedora, don't. It's fucking tiring. Every faggot author tries this now.

>>22399415
There exist possibilities besides these two

>>22399428
A critique of Christianity is fine too. I would avoid taking Christianity in as an instant fantasy flavoring spice. It's gay and lazy.

>>22397864
>their emotions in this passage are conveyed by dialogue
Then their actions aren't reported, which is something different from what I want to write.
>you need to make it so the dialogue conveys the meaning on its own
There are a great many things that can't be effectively conveyed through written dialogue without added descriptions, so if I want to convey them I need to do the opposite.
Here's an example, the difference between the following:
>"Yeah, that's fine."
>"Yeah, that's fine," he said, clearly too shy to reply otherwise.
>"Yeah, that's fine," he said under his breath looking at his feet.
What I want to convey isn't the literal meaning of what's being said, rather the nuances of their conversation, which are way more information than what's contained in their words.
>>22397884
I enjoy big beautiful sentences, thank you very much.
>her expression and tone betrayed her passive aggressiveness
That means that both the colleague's expression and tone were equally revealing of her anger, what I wrote instead means that her expression was sort of ambiguous, and her tone was so clearly angry that it confirmed the impression about her expression.
>she stifled her anger
>she failed to sound calm
These two mean something completely different from what I wrote, they're both contradictions to what she said, because a question starting with "what the fuck" is a clear display of anger.
If you wanted to make it shorter and remove allusions it might turn into:
>“Any radio signal picked up?”
>Her tone was more casual than the way she ate the first banana might have made you think.
>“Nope.”
>“Any news from Antonio?”
>“Nope.”
>“Smith?”
>“Yup?”
>“What the fuck did you do yesterday while I was outside looking?” My colleague, despite her efforts, looked annoyed.
>“I was reviewing sat data, should I try and tell you how it works one more time or do you think that after the second time you also require a drawing to command your attention?”
>She threw a peel past me, and dropped the matter.
>“Fuck you."
Do you honestly get the same impression of the characters?
It sounds a hell of a lot more generic to me this way, it does nothing to show that the protagonist is so perceptive, nor that he cares more about his meal than about work, nor that the colleague has an almost comical appetite.

>>22398853
Absolutely none unless you post it somewhere with timestamps that can be traced to you.
Or a watermark you tell about existence of to absolutely nobody except the judge.

>>22399532
I'm fucking retarded, by absolutely none I mean the chance of proving it in court normally. >>22398853

>>22398512
>anon can't eat two bananas in 25 seconds
Granted, that's high speed banana eating, but the colleague's going through less than two bananas in the span of the conversation.
It seems realistic enough considering it should be an almost comical appetite and she already said she was hungry a bit before the start of the snippet.

>>22399532
If you're paranoid and handy with the computer you can post a hash of the story, and later prove that the hash was derived from the story

>>22399612
That falls under the watermark, but yeah.

>>22399415
Fedora tipping

I posted my writing here not that long ago and while I do appreciate the feedback and while I do think that it was helpful, I haven't written a single word since then, I think it threw me off, I just haven't had the same confidence since getting humbled/knocked down a peg.

>>22398853
Not if you can prove that you sent them the file, if you're sharing via email that should be proof enough. Personally, I make it a priority to pay for feedback, even to those who don't want anything. A money trail is plenty of evidence. If you're sharing online, make sure it's with a trusted friend, or it's work you care little about or is insignificant enough of a piece for anybody to plagiarise from.

>>22399895
Getting told your writing is shit means you now know what was bad about it.
Now you can improve it.

Imagine you wrote the whole fucking thing and just released it and then was told it was shit. Getting feedback, being told it's shit and then making it not shit is literally the writing cycle.

Stop being lazy, nigger.

>>22399905
Plagiarism is the highest form of praise so I don't know how I would feel if I found out someone ripped my shit off.

>>22399914
Well, you just said that it was the highest form of praise so you'd assume that you'd feel good.

>>22399895
Then don't write, edit. Go back through your work and fix it up a bit. First drafts are always a nightmare.

>>22399906
>Stop being lazy, nigger.
You're right.

>>22399914
Imitation is the highest form of praise. Plagiarism is a crime.

>>22399895
Good. Faggots like you shouldn't be writing in the first place since you do it solely for vanity.

>>22399927
Plagiarism is an imitation.
>>22399919
Surely not if someone was earning money off my ripped off shit and I wasn't.

>>22399939
>since you do it solely for vanity.
Don't hurt your arm next time you reach like that.

>>22399950
Why else would you be so affected by critique retard?

>>22399957
It's not hard to figure out.

>>22399940
>Plagiarism is an imitation.
In a way, absolutely, but while I don't want to argue semantics, plagiarism is theft. Whereas imitation infinitely more positive. Somebody may imitate your style or take your ideas and turn them into their own because they like them, out of admiration. If somebody is inspired by your work and wishes to write something in your style, or write something derived from your ideas, be flattered, even if they end up being better. If somebody tries to pass your work off as their own, in any context, don't feel conflicted, get angry.

>>22400000
>>22399999
>>22399998
>>22399997
>>22399996

>>22399993
Call of united airlines proves frank is the best lit author

>>22398754
books are for sale too, better ban books from /lit/

Do you guys judge your characters? I'm currently outlining the third part of my novel and it's much more character-heavy in concept than the previous sections, and it just feels wrong to have such concrete ideas about who they are, their motivations, etc. It makes everything seem so static and by-the-numbers. But I have to have some idea of who everyone is, who they're based on, what their motivations are...

>>22400038
No.

>>22400038
this has no justification

>>22400047
In what way?

>>22400038
Are you asking if I have a solid idea of who and what my characters are when I write them?

>>22400055
No, I'm asking if you judge them. That said, now that I've asked the question, I've realized that what I'm asking is probably a level removed from the question and ties into my discomfort with judging the people on which my characters are based. The characters were just a stand-in, and the root of this question probably has nothing to do with writing at all. Disregard.

>>22400038
>Do you guys judge your characters?
You mean "man, what a son of a bitch this guy is"? Yeah, I basically wrote a childkiller war criminal but he's also a morally gray character since he regrets it.

Nearly none of my characters are squeaky clean, but some are worse than others.

>>22400071
>No, I'm asking if you judge them.
Uh, no, they're not real.

>>22400094
What, so they're just cardboard cutouts then?

>>22400179
They're just words on a page.

>>22400193
With that attitude, you will get far as a writer.

>>22400038
I judge characters when I read my work back, not as I'm writing them. While writing, you channel the character and can only judge their actions through their perspective and that of those around them. When reading it back, you act as your audience, as a reader and judge them as you would anyone else you read about.

>>22400206
He raises a good question though. Why should we judge our characters? Unlike the other characters in a piece we won't be spending time with them, not literally at least. So how is it fair to hold them to the same standards we do our peers?

>>22400206
Why should I feel emotions over something that isn't real? That doesn't even make sense.

>>22400237
Bait post, or actual autist?

>>22400241
both and doing anything else

>>22400225
>Why should we judge our characters?
To gauge reception vs NORMAL PEOPLE which will PRESUMABLY BE YOUR READERS.

Sure, in your fucked up cyberpunk setting where life is cheaper than a plastic wrapper on a fucking candy, people might have different values and attitudes towards things. But generally, unless you live in a 3rd world shithole, your moral standards will be more or less similar across the world. ie. killing is bad/sometimes necessary, theft is bad, generally causing other people harm for no reason bad.

Gauging how your characters will be perceived and received is important to make sure you don't write wangsty shit or completely unhinged evil "good guys" unintentionally.

What's the point in writing? Nobody will read your book anyways

>>22400241
I promise I'm not baiting, I just genuinely don't get it, I've never understood it. When my brother, my mum and I went to see the latest live-action spider-man movie they both cried while watching it and it just evoked nothing in me, I've never understood investing emotions into something fictional.

>>22400272
I have readers

>>22400272
I'm not happy if I'm not working on some kind of artistic pursuit. I'm not attached to the outcome of that pursuit, but I'm very attached to the quality thereof. It's liberating to give yourself entirely to something, in and of itself.

>>22392775
this is called the interruption

>>22400274
I'm not even sure why you're on /lit/ with a 'tism to this degree. I think most people read because they want to read about something or someone and empathize with the struggles of the characters, hate the villains, pity the pitiful et cetera. Literally the most basic of base literary mechanisms to get your book to sell is to get people attached to characters.

What's the last book you read, /wg/? And what, if anything, did it contribute to your writing skills/outlook?

>>22400291
Based.

>>22400302
>I think most people read because they want to read about something or someone and empathize with the struggles of the characters, hate the villains, pity the pitiful et cetera
I don't think that's true at all, I think most people read for the story and the plot.
>Literally the most basic of base literary mechanisms to get your book to sell is to get people attached to characters.
Yes, I know, but that doesn't mean I have to care about my characters. I understand what to write in order to get someone else to care about them but I will never feel an emotional attachment to them, it just doesn't compute in my head.

>>22400302
It's not necessarily autism. There are a lot of reasons why people become separated from their emotions, one of which being narcissism; another, psychopathy. It could just be the plain old masculine make-believe whereby old Gary Cooper has decreed that men should not have or show emotion. Many such cases!

>>22400309
>I think most people read for the story and the plot.
Thing is, why should I give a shit about the story and the plot if I don't care about a single character in it? Did you think about that? You can have literally the greatest story in the world, but if the characters are fucking cardboards that nobody could possibly give a single fuck about, the story will be buried under litRPG cultivation trash.

Not every character has to be likeable. Not every character has to be relatable. Hell, make every character unrelatable fucking dickhead - but you need to make people feel SOMETHING.

>>22400320
>You can have literally the greatest story in the world, but if the characters are fucking cardboards that nobody could possibly give a single fuck about, the story will be buried under litRPG cultivation trash.
I don't agree with that at all but maybe I just haven't read enough bad books.
>Thing is, why should I give a shit about the story and the plot if I don't care about a single character in it?
Because it's interesting?
>Did you think about that?
Sure.

>>22400309
I will just add that YOU, YOURSELF not feeling much for the characters isn't ideal, but getting too attached to characters is poison as well.

A good writer should never think of any character as irreplaceable. Only consider value they add to the story.

>>22400310
>It could just be the plain old masculine make-believe whereby old Gary Cooper has decreed that men should not have or show emotion.
I'm no Tony Soprano but I would bang Edie Falco without a second thought.

>>22400320
>why should I give a shit about the story and the plot if I don't care about a single character in it?
NTA, but you shouldn't. I personally only write things without explicit plot. My characters are all husks into which a reader can place his or her individual humanity, if I've done my job right. Everything external to the chase for pure literary beauty is a vehicle for that beauty. I don't really give a shit about anything else.

>>22392775
Thanos has a glove

>>22400336
>I personally only write things without explicit plot
Slice of life?
>My characters are all husks into which a reader can place his or her individual humanity
That in itself isn't bad per se, but going with a full cast of self inserts is pretty ballsy.

>>22400320
>but you need to make people feel SOMETHING.
I should've added this to this >>22400328 but I forgot. Like I said, I know how to make other people feel things, I just don't think I ever will.

>>22400330
>Only consider value they add to the story.
See, I'm not autistic, other people think like me.

>>22400340
>Slice of life?
I don't think so. I don't call it anything but experimental. It's the least-pretentious way I can label writing that has a fuck load of pretense.

>>22400341
My nigger, those are both my posts.

What I'm saying is, it's weird to not be attached at all to your characters, but being TOO attached to them is bad as well. It leads to plot armor as thick as redwood trees and hack writing.

My characters are crystallization of my work. In a way, they're also bits of me. I'm not overly attached to them, but it would be a lie if I said I don't want my characters to receive the best possible writing I can give them.

>>22400348
>My nigger, those are both my posts.
Oh shit, lol.
>it's weird to not be attached at all to your characters
I never said it was.
>but it would be a lie if I said I don't want my characters to receive the best possible writing I can give them.
That's a completely selfish reason (not that that's a bad thing.) you're not doing that for your characters you're doing it for you. You don't want your characters to have the best writing, you want them to be written to the best of your ability so that people will marvel at your writing if they ever read it.

>>22400310
I think the word you're looking for is sociopathy.

>>22400291
Well said.

>>22400363
My characters are in a way me, so yeah. I want bits of me to receive best writing I can give it so I don't wake up one night and roll around in my bed going "fuck fuck fuck I could have written it so much better" and then hate myself.

>>22400380
I've got no rebuttal to this, I'm glad you're so invested in your writing, hope it works out for you.

>post on 4chan
>get all of my creative ideas
>sit in front of a pencil and paper
>nothing happens
I know what I must do, but I do not know if I have the strength to do it.

>>22400417
Yeah it takes so much strength and courage to write words on a piece of paper. Truly stunning and brave.

>>22400291
>>22400276
I posted my work on here and not a single person bothered to comment on it.

>>22400417
>pencil and paper
Have you ever heard of a computer grandpa?

>>22400426
Getting feedback at all here is hit or miss, but this is certainly not the place to get ordinary readers

>>22400426
I generally comment on short excerpts I can read right here, on 4chins.

Between writing my own shit and being a wageslave, I don't have time to also edit and feedback most other peoples' shit. Try posting it in a more accessible format, like a small excerpt. Few lines.

>>22400426
It was probably irredeemably bad, to the point where you'd have to write a whole book to instruct you on what to change (hence, the resources in the OP) or in that valley of mediocrity which inspires neither critique nor praise. I live in that valley too.

>>22398707
Smells like a thesaurus.

>>22400437
Even if I think something is really good or bad, if I have a comment, I generally comment.

But I also don't read pastebins and whatever the fucks.

>>22398495
"The Liars' Gospel" by Naomi Alderman got away with it.
>>22398853
You could always convert it to an image-based PDF.
They could still steal it, but it'd be really labor-intensive to convert it all back to text, even with OCR.

>>22400004
that wasn't plagiarism, that was parody
it only proves frank is an arrogant ass
also you forgot to post the url to "call of united airlines"
https://files.catbox.moe/aw9gz2.pdf

>>22400274
The entire point of fiction is to evoke emotions in your reader.
If fiction doesn't evoke emotions in you, then you are definitely the exception to the rule.
People come for the plot, but stay for the characters.
I can't tell if you're autistic or sociopathic.

>>22400568
>>22400576
>>22400601
This post formatting evokes rage in me.

How do I write an MC who's got a ladykiller streak if I'm a turbovirgin?

>>22398185
Very much so

>>22400797
Write terrible pickup lines.

No, seriously. It works for Chads. Do pickup line then skip directly to them in middle of fucking.

20k words into my magic school story and there has been 0 magical education happening so far.

>>22400788
such a delicate flower

>>22400910
Who cares? More importantly, what about the girls? How many heroines have you introduced so far?

>>22400274
clearly an autist
they were crying because the plot was so poorly constructed

>>22400928
Three

>>22400797
consider writing what you know

bruh, how are there not more monk subclasses? they're just shonen anime. that shit writes itself

>way of the rubber soul
>way of the shinobi
>way of the reaper
>way of the troll hunter
>way of the whistling breath

>>22401379
>way of the vigilante
>way of iron hermetic
>way of the cursebreaker

>>22400797
the interesting thing about ladykillers is that they just have to be themselves and women are interested in them
so all you have to do is write women being interested in him lol, you don't have to explain anything (maybe have one talk about how handsome he is)

I gave up on names for my first draft and started belting out generic titles and placeholders for everything. Will I survive and find the will within myself to rewrite it for the second draft?

>finished a great book
>still have to write today
How do I process this while also writing?

>>22401594
Take the day off writing. It's not every day you finish a great book which leaves you contemplating.

>>22401525
>Will I survive
you are already dead. just put names, you can change them whenever you want

It's hard to stay motivated to finish my original stuff when I know writing fanfiction would get me way more feedback

>>22402072
Plus, your original stuff isn't likely to be appreciated, if ever, until well after you're dead. See "Moby Dick".

>>22402447
nah being discovered post mortem is a thing of the past. it's the age of the internet. if you have talent enough to be one of the all time greats, you'll surface to the top while you're alive.

>>22402471
The problem now is getting drowned out by all the bullshit. There might be cool stuff out there that just fails to get traction, posted on the wrong website or with the wrong eye catching cover. Time will tell if any dead people get discovered like they used to.

I love Christmas, it's my favourite time of year, it makes me feel so warm inside. I want to write a story that is set around Christmas but I feel like it would be pretty boring if I set it around Australian Christmas cause we don't get snow or do any of the typical Christmas things, we sort of just open presents, eat a big lunch with some extended family and then go to bed, it would be very boring but it's the only Christmas I would know how to write. Any good books set around Christmas?

As I continued to slide down the slope of the crater's outer wall, I thought with surprising clarity about the misery that had marked my life while I was struggling inch by inch to the crest of that vast volcanic mouth. And I saw the singed bark of the stately trees, and I looked down and saw the darkened flesh of my own singed arms. It was then that I realized that I had demonstrated, in my own fragile way, the strength of the tree.

>>22402471
The internet has been a public good for only thirty years. It's too early to tell who the greats are if one starts from 1993. What's been popular or acclaimed over that time span could fall into obscurity a century from now. Just look at Lil Abner, The Shadow, or many Oscar winners of decades past.

>>22402575
Write what you know. Most people are given either an American or an English idea of Christmas. An authentic Australian Christmas would be a fresh setting for many around the setting.

So how do you make it interesting for you? Easy: think of everything about Christmas season that you like and then threaten to ruin it. Show us Australian life, show us your perspective. Show us what normal is for you. Trust me: your idea of normal is someone else's idea of exotic. You just cannot see it.

If that's not enough, read about how Christmas is celebrated around the world. Write about a character who thinks that Christmas is so plain and they want to change it. Do they change Christmas for the better or worse? Do they learn "what Christmas is really about" and accept tradition?

Brainstorm these ideas, themes, and topics and see what you conjure up.

>>22402618
* for many around the world

>>22400981
You're on the right track. Make sure they're distinct from one another and have traits that endear themselves to readers, and consider which girl you're going to focus on.

>>22402618
>your idea of normal is someone else's idea of exotic. You just cannot see it.
This is a good point, thank you, anon.

>>22392775
On a hot Friday afternoon, 25 year old James Henderson stood on a pier jutting into the shimmering East River. He was pale and thin, his dark wiry hair tousled by the wind. His eyes gazed disinterestedly into the tiny, moving waves, as if the river’s existence were merely incidental. Across the way was a maze of corporate buildings, with their hundreds of office windows gleaming under the summer sun. A personal injury law firm was one of those buildings, the same one that fired him about two years ago. They had politely categorized his firing as a lay-off, but it was no secret that he had been terminated for his “odd” behavior. For some people it takes losing a job to get their act together, but James was not one of those people.

On some level, James had come out to the water looking for answers, hoping an epiphany would spring up from out of the water. But after having been there for 20 unsuccessful minutes, he gave up and went back down the boardwalk then towards the park that stretched a quarter mile along the river. It was a thin, elevated waterfront with a hardened platform that hung out into the water, bordered by long wooden benches, yards for lounging, a playground, and a beach volleyball pit with a green turf adjacent to it. The park isn’t generally busy during work hours but it was such a pristine day that a few dozen people were already there, some doing yoga, some walking their dogs (mostly golden retrievers), some pushing strollers. Most of the people there were around his age, many of them incredibly attractive. James was a pretty good looking guy too, his dark eyes and cold face attracting a certain crowd, but always he wore an expression that wasn’t particularly inviting. Many times growing up he’d been given unwarranted advice that he should smile more, which he resented.

James continued there along the river with no intended destination, occasionally peering out at various cargo boats and ferries, until something stole his attention. 20m out and walking towards him was a woman of average height with long black hair; she appeared to be around his age. She had ivory skin and black jean shorts and her toned midriff showed beneath her black tube top. As she got closer, James’ stomach dropped. Her blue eyes glowed from her ovular face, with the narrow bridge of her nose ending in a delicate point above full, red lips. She was one of the most gorgeous women he’d ever seen. He argued with himself over whether he should smile at her or not, but he also didn’t want to disturb her day. She was a stranger and, at least in his mind, she must get sick of attention from guys. And he'd be a good guy if he didn’t look at her.

About 8m away from her now, he noticed a peculiar tattoo on her shoulder.

The first time
I wrote anything
I was 6 years old
The Mean Monster
My mother loved it

I began to write short stories
And wear a little hat
That said I want to be a writer

And these stories were good
Enough for my family
Who would gather around the dining room table
Taking turns with my writing
Dad licking the tip of his thumb
To turn the page
And saying all those nice words
And I knew then
That I was a writer

But my first novel
A commitment it seemed
Maybe a waste of time
To read something so long
Written by someone so young
And at 16 now
Becoming less cute
And more real
Suddenly apt to fail

And at 26 now
Writing fortunes
On little slips of paper
To be placed inside
Those cookies you eat
At Chinese restaurants

And this is a job
That no one ever wants
Where no one ever calls
This restaurant to say
Those words my Dad did
Sitting around the dining room table
Making my eyes wide
And my dreams big

The fortunes
More often than not
Are simply thrown away
And yet I write them
Because I can’t
Not
Write

>>22392775
Any advice on how to be less ESL in my writing? This does include book recommendations to expand my vocabulary and grammatical portfolio, I think I should read Shakespeare for starters.
I shouldn't have slept through the English classes when I was a kid.
But I believe I can do it. If Conrad did it so can I.
I might never write at his level but at least I will be able to write passable genre fiction.

>>22402894
Do any of you have any advice on how to make my writing feel more natural and more grammatically correct? I want book recommendations that might help me obtain a better grasp of the English language. But other sources are also welcome.
I really should have paid attention to my English classes when I was a kid. But I believe that if joseph conrad could learn the language and become a capable writer, so can I.

I tried rewriting my post on a formal registry while aiming for fluidity.

>>22402712
>He was pale and thin, his dark wiry hair tousled by the wind. His eyes gazed disinterestedly into the tiny, moving waves, as if the river’s existence were merely incidental.
This is one of the most aggravating things I've ever read.

>>22402894
>>22402969
I always recommend Painless English for Speakers of Other Languages by Jeffrey Strausser and Jose Paniza. A compact, clearly written overview of English grammar and proper sentence structure. It even has chapters for general writing tips, while remaining a quick read, not thicker than your leg like most grammar books out there. Proud vidya-educated ESLs will say they don't need this elementary school-tier crap, but it will teach you things I'm certain you didn't know before but which you must know if you're going to pretend you know English. Read it with time and care and it's guaranteed to vastly improve the quality of your writing.

>>22403154
Not him but why exactly?

>>22392775
Don't you guys love it when an idea you've been fighting with just clicks? I've been working on an outline for a film script and I finally got how I want to handle a set of scenes.

>>22403154
Why? It seems a bit melodramatic, but overall it's fine.

>>22403560
What do you plan on doing with your script?

Do you guys ever draw inspiration from music? I'm listening to Al Green's "Let's Stay Together" right now and it's got me wanting to write the opening of a story where some detectives bust into a motel room in the middle of the Nevada desert and this is blasting over the radio while the body of the victim rots in a chair in the centre of the room. I don't know if that's what you'd call "drawing inspiration" though.

Serial novel bros, how do I get up to 3k words a day? I get writer fatigue.

Probably has been asked about a million times already, but what are your thoughts on a chapter whose purpose lies in delivering exposition to the reader?

Context:

>story takes place in a fictional city/world
>one faction is a gang that sees itself as a vigilante-type group, and are all about protecting the downtrodden and the oppressed in their own city/neighbourhood
>the other faction is the foreign power that's occupying the aforementioned city, they're not necessary evil, but they're the antagonists nonetheless

I'm wondering whether I could devote a chapter or two (Chapter #3, maybe?) that takes place from one of the antagonists' POV, where maybe a newly instated officer is being debriefed about the history and mondus operati of the gang that I mentioned before.

How do I begin with all the publishing process? I've written a 60k word story that I've revised through and through. Obviously there are still the steps of getting beta readers and an editor, but what about after that? Do I just self-publish on Amazon and hope for the best?

>>22404249
1. Knowing where you're going in the story. Have a vague idea of the arc climax you're building to.
2. Not writing something that requires research of complex topics. Should be able to just write or otherwise make things up
3. Comes with time, too. These days I can do 1000-1500 an hour, so 2 hours of writing isn't enough to be fatigued. But that's after >1.5mil words of writing various stories. Early on I was much slower.

>>22404249
Figure out the source of fatigue and address it. For some people it's not knowing what comes next. For others its literal fatigue where they need to take a nap. Or it could be that you can't work in long periods but can work in many short bursts. Or that you're spending too much time reading over your work and editing instead of pressing forward. Or that you're just a slow typer and would benefit from speech-to-text programs.

>>22404264
It'd work best if the officer became a character that you came back to a few more times in subsequent chapters.

>>22403894
I do picture a lot of scenes due to music. My mind just drifts off and I imagine shit.

>>22404273
>Do I just self-publish on Amazon
Yeah if you want your work to be drowned in trash.

Try to go to publishers and keep trying until one doesn't tell you to fuck off.

>>22397547
Not quite the same thing, but a family friend died from heart failure, and as he realized he wasn't going to make it much longer he became a prick to his wife.
To her, that was him trying to make it hurt less when he was gone because he had made their final days together unpleasant.

>>22397777
Killing fields?

>>22404273
Rip it apart and serialize it chapter by chapter. There's enough material there for a few weeks.

>>22403154
Him, why's that? Criticism is welcomed

>>22392775
Bros. My friend just fucking made it. I don't know if I should eat my heart out of envy or cheer for him. If I have to be honest, I feel a bit of both.

>>22402865
Kind of the same plot as "Skipper Dan" by Weird Al Yankovic

>>22404264
Readers tend to find exposition boring.
Find a different way to convey the information, e.g. reveal it through action and dialogue.

>>22405441
Nothing good comes from envy my fellow anon. Be happy for him and learn from him where you can. If he's got the knack, you can develop it too. If he simply lucked out and, in your eyes, didn't earn it then you can hardly blame him either. I doubt jealousy of circumstance can remain seperate from envy, don't fall into that trap.

>>22405562
This, >>22404264 as the author you'll be privy to information about your setting and characters that your readers may not, and may never be. Ask yourself before providing exposition, how much need they know? If it's a lot, ponder how the story will change for them if they're provided with hints, or left guessing, rather than knowing everything.

>>22402865
I quite like it anon.

>writing sci-fi novel
>loved the world/concept I built
>realized that I was focusing too much on that than the actual plot
>actual plot not very interesting

What do

>>22405691
Same boat here anon. Thankfully, I've got a good cast of characters. Setting is key and once you've got that, you've got a world for your characters to come from. If you have good characters, in an interesting setting, even the most basic of plotlines is all you need to kick off. Have your protagonist(s) undertake a trivial task and while you're writing the plot will come to you. I wrote almost 10k words trying to begin some sort of adventure before realising that was all preface, a writing exercise I needed to undergo before discovering what the story should be. It's not until you begin writing your characters that you truly understand who they are. Forcing them into a storyline before discovering them wasn't working. Yet after developing a backstory, perhaps more detailed than I should have been, their motivations and reactions have become all too apparent. You can have almost any event take place in their world and know how they'll respond. Pick an inciting incident and you're golden.

TLTR? Setting, Characters, Plot. Don't skip the middle part.

>>22404264
Drop it piecemeal in hints, but generally something like this should never be fully known except through a fandom wiki page. You never want the world itself to be more interesting than the plot no matter how fleshed out your ideas are. Look at Dune and how much they actually talk about what spice does in the novel (not much)

psychoanalyse me
>today's diary entry

>Been freewriting for two weeks now
>Have finished reading two books
>Still can't write anything of value

How long can this go on? I've tried my best. Why can't I just write professionally tomorrow?

>>22392775

>>22405792
>freewriting
It's easy, it's fun, but it's fruitless. For a journal? What's the harm. Put it down to a "writing exercise". Why not? Just don't forget that you're an author and you've got to act like one, sometime or another.

>>22405741
Thank you anon, I keep having trouble starting but I'll stop sweating the plot, try just writing everything I've thought of first, them the rest will come

>>22403211
Thanks. Refreshing grammar is never a bad idea.
Even though I believe I have a decent grasp of english.
> If you're going to pretend you know English.
Fuck you too, anon.

>>22405587
Thank you buddy
Me and my girlfriend took turns trying to write poetry the other night. This was the best one I wrote.
Any critiques/ideas?
>>22405554
Ah shit. It is, isn't it?
Hadn't heard that song before, so maybe it's just a common little idea.

>>22405801
Stop using the most polysyllabic words you can think of.

>>22405811
What even is acting like an author?

Say you had some big supernatural twist in the plot, like a presumed dead character showing up alive at the protag's house, or the protag's doppelganger be seen by the protag...how soon is too soon if this is the inciting incident for the story? Where would you place it? Chapter one? Chapter three?

>>22403730
I might try to get a studio to make it. It might rot on my hard drive forever. I might make it myself. I don't know yet. It was an idea I had a few months ago and it has stuck around long enough to have actual effort put into it.

The basic rundown is that a nerdier Elliot Rodger type character snaps when he learns the chick he likes has a male friend who he thinks is her boyfriend. Leading him to do a massacre. Near the end of his rampage he learns that they weren't even a thing and kills himself.

I'm still quite foggy on some of the details. While I have some major parts outlined, the ending and some major aspects of the plot, I'm still not sure how I want to handle the start of the film yet. I've been working on it as a side project with a book on numismatics being my main project. So progress is relatively slow. If you guys would like to hear more, I'd be glad to share summaries of the scenes which are actually fleshed out.

I have character A telling character B what happened to him. To the reader, it turns into a flashback scene, from person A's first person perspective. How would you indicate that the reader is getting details (mainly his exact thoughts and emotions) that aren't told to character B?

>>22406271
If this s the inciting event of the story it probably should be right after you end the introduction. Or during.
No later than chapter 3 I think. Probably in chapter 2 or one.

>>22392775
Retards ITT will never make it because they can't even write a subject.

>>22406823

>>22406825
That one is a mistake use this one >>22406929

>>22405582
It's not meant to be a huge exposition dump; I am not at all interested in worldbuilding too much in this specific story. I just find no way to "organically" let the readers in the information about the gang's backstory and the like