/lit/ - Literature

Are you a believer? If so, why? If not, why not?

>>23171162
What do you think of Isaiah 45:7?

>>23171173
Yes, I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses in 2017!

>>23171178
Concerning the statement that God creates evil, it does not mean anything or any practice that is morally wrong.

“Evil” as here used does not mean moral evil, of which God could never be guilty, but it refers to a calamity or disaster or destruction, such as he brings upon his unrepentant foes, and that particularly at the battle of Armageddon.
From rebellious Adam’s time onward punishment has come from God upon the willfully wicked, and this has been wholly just on God’s part, but it has been as an evil to the ones meriting it.

>>23171162
Can you explain to me what St Paul is trying to say in Gal.2:19, I think I can follow the rest of the argument in that section but what does
>for through the law I died to the law that I may live to God
Even mean?

>>23171162
Why were there pigs in Gergesena?

>>23171162
The God of the Old Testament is obviously a different God than the God of the Old Testament. The OT God is a demon who tells the Hebrews it's okay to spy, murder people and steal their land because they're "chosen". The question is, why do people keep falling for this crap?

>>23171162
What do you think of mercy as the height of virtue?

>>23171190
Sure.

Paul’s words form part of an argument showing that he could not attain a righteous standing before God through “works of law.” (Galatians 2:16)

The Mosaic Law condemned Paul as a sinner deserving of death, since he could not keep the Law perfectly. (Romans 7:7-11) However, Paul says that he “died toward law” in the sense that he had been freed from the Law. That Law covenant was legally terminated on the basis of Jesus’ death on the torture stake. (Colossians 2:13, 14)
That is why Paul could write to the Christians in Rome that they were “made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ.” (Romans 7:4)

When Christians exercised faith in Christ’s sacrifice, they “died toward law.” Because the Law was what led Paul to Christ, Paul could say that it was “through law” that he “died toward law.”

>>23171194
For me it was the anti-historical aspects of the OT.

The God of the Old Testament is obviously a different God than the God of the New Testament. The OT God is a demon who tells the Hebrews it's okay to spy, murder people and steal their land because they're "chosen". The question is, why do people keep falling for this crap?

>>23171199
example?

>>23171193
If the owners of the swine were Jews, they were being guilty of disrespect for the Law.

>>23171194
It is true that at face value, the image we may have of God in the OT and the NT is different.

But on the one hand, the circumstances are different, and people behave differently in different circumstances.

On the other hand, people who hate the God of the OT and consider him an angry and wrathful God tend to grossly exaggerate and focus on what supports their ideas, while exaggerating the merciful and forgiving side of God in the New Testament.

But when we consider all factors and nuances involved we’ll see a balanced, realistic portrait of a most fascinating multifaceted character!

>>23171195
Mercy is indeed a cornerstone virtue, reflecting God's compassion and forgiveness toward humanity.

Jesus's teachings often emphasize the importance of showing mercy to others, even to those who may not deserve it.

I see it as embodying the highest form of love and it reflects the Christian understanding of God's grace and redemption.

>>23171194
Not OP but no, it is the same God. Sin, or in other belief systems, karma, is a system of spiritual causes and effects; justice and punishment, debt and payment. Without it, the world would collapse due to the logical incoherence of its structures. God made man and commanded him not to sin. Man did sin, and thus man met with disasters and wrath.
God is so merciful, wise and powerful, that he recognized this was too harsh a burden, and actually preventing men from being able to grow and get better.
So he sent his only son, Jesus Christ, who bore no sin, both as a teacher and as a sacrifice for sin, to get around the cosmic law, without breaking it. We still accumulate debt, often so much debt, that we could never repay it. In the past, this lead to things like the flood, total destruction and resetting of the world.
Jesus paid our debt for all time, and so the laws of the universe can be kept in coherence; we can pay an unpayable debt, through the love and mercy of Jesus Christ, who paid it for all time.
It is the same God in both books, but he gave us the mightiest gift possible: a way out. Reflect on the weight of that.

>>23171202
It is true that at face value, the image we may have of God in the OT and the NT is different.

But on the one hand, the circumstances are different, and people behave differently in different circumstances.

On the other hand, people who hate the God of the OT and consider him an angry and wrathful God tend to grossly exaggerate and focus on what supports their ideas, while exaggerating the merciful and forgiving side of God in the New Testament.

But when we consider all factors and nuances involved we’ll see a balanced, realistic portrait of a most fascinating multifaceted character!

>>23171193
If the owners of the swine were Jews, they were being guilty of disrespect for the Law.

Jews wrote a book where they tell you that you can't be rich or you won't enter heaven (a place they invented for all the good slaves), yet Jews are perfectly rich. You can't kill but they kill all the time to achieve their ends. You can't steal but they steal all the time. The Bible is a brainwashing book to neuter humanity and give all the power to Jews. How the fuck is this not obvious to everyone??

>>23171210
I have been both a wicked man consumed by spite and vengeance, and have nearly destroyed myself through it. Vengeance leads to suicide, one kills one's self as they embody hatred; when put in a position of leverage against anyone, and making the choice to capitalize upon it, it's like taking a knife to one's own heart.

I have also been a man of extreme empathy and compassion, and forgiveness. I have held the keys to another's destruction, and according to human logic, even what some would call justified, or deserved destruction in some of these cases.
And there are times I have chosen to set them free and throw the key in the river, because I felt that that was the more powerful thing to do.

I have never felt like I had more integrity or was more worthy of redemption, than when I could execute punishment unto another, and chose to set them free. It set me free as well.

There is no higher wisdom than the words and intention of Jesus Christ, the perfect man.

>>23171211
Amen!

>>23171218
By setting out a perfect pattern covering the various facets of life, the Torah showed up the Jews as sinners.
It became evident that, despite any good intentions and diligent efforts, they could not measure up to its requirements.

Using the Jews as a sample of the imperfect human family, the Law exposed all the world, including each one of us, as sinners, liable to God for punishment. (Romans 3:19, 20)
Thus it emphasized the need for a savior for mankind, and it led faithful ones to Jesus Christ as that Savior

>>23171197
Ah, thank you, it make sense now
Lemme hit you with something harder
Can you explain to me what is going on in the call of the disciples in John 1
Why does it constantly say what time it was?
What did the whole thing about the disciples seeing where Jesus stayed even mean?
What does Jesus mean when He says Nathanael is an Israelite in whom there is no guile?
What does the last verse angels ascending and descending on the Son of Man mean?
I'm sorry for the many questions but it's such a puzzling section

>>23171162
I saw some guy on twitter arguing that Jews are not required to convert to Christianity (as in being baptized and the whole conversion process) because they're already part of the pact or something, that they only need to accept Christ. Is this true?

>>23171218
Jews are men like anyone else. Not all Jews are rich. Not all Jews are doing wicked things; but all Jews are men, and they sin just like you do. And some are borderline saints, just like you are when you act upon your higher nature.

>>23171226
Amen!

My friend, you are warmly invited to gather with us on the 24th of December so that you too may strengthen your faith in and love for Jesus Christ and the heavenly Father.

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/memorial/

Jesus Christ himself commanded that his followers commemorate the Lord’s Supper and that they do so regularly. He specifically told them: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”—Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:23-25.

>>23171236
I use this study Bible with a lot of explanatory footnotes, if you click on a verse it will give a commentary to answer your questions:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/

Please give it a try. It is regularly updated, for now, there are only study notes from Matthew to Philemon.


>>23171237
No my friend, it isn't true.

To gain salvation, you must exercise faith in Jesus and also demonstrate that faith by obeying his commands.—Acts 4:10, 12; Romans 10:9, 10; Hebrews 5:9.

>>23171162
>>23171187
Why are Jehovah's Witnesses more likely to make Christian cartoons and Christian comics? It's something I noticed.

>>23171162
why did god sleep during the holocaust

>>23171251
idk

>>23171252
God allowed the Holocaust for the same reason that he has permitted all human suffering: to settle moral issues that were raised long ago.
The Bible clearly indicates that at present the Devil, not God, rules the world. (Luke 4:1, 2, 6; John 12:31)

>>23171240
I will bear this in mind. I thank you for your willingness to discuss these things with others, especially in a space that is often not receptive.

I'd like to run something by you. I am a writer. It is what I was born to do. God gives us all certain inborn talents. I have failed at so much in life, but the only thing I've been able to do with consistency and ease, is work with words.

I have also made many mistakes and at one point, my heart sank to the depths of pure darkness. I never committed a crime, took a life, or anything like that, thank God, but my heart in its intent, turned wicked. I understood the mind of the Evil One, and venerated his approach to life.

I would like to make some contribution to this world, positively, before I die. I have been writing something, which I call the Book of Lucifer. I have been writing it through a series of letters, from him to the fallen angels, and from the fallen angels back to him, mimicking the style of the Gospels. In it, I have explained his way of thinking, and his view of the Commandments, I had him deliver his version of the Sermon on the Mount. I tried to make it as convincing as possible, so that those who read it, might see it reflected back into themselves, as we all have some evil within us.

And I have not written the end just yet, but in the end, I will show how he destroys his own soul, and all of his potential, and transforms into Satan; the point of no return, a heart so hardened that it is genuinely incapable of feeling and receiving God's love.
Not as a glorification of him, or as an apology for him; but as a warning to us all.
Jesus gave the message of light through his words, but for human beings, though we hear these words, there is a part of us that tends toward darkness. My thinking is that it must be spoken to, seemingly validated; and ultimately undone by its own self defeating logic, for many of us to properly understand.

Do you think I am committing a sin or doing the wrong thing by engaging in such a work?

>>23171252
God wanted the Holocaust to happen. It's His way of punishing Jews for not following His Son for thousands of years.

>>23171283
Thank you for sharing this with me. It's an interesting endeavor!

It all depends on your motive, whether you do it to glorify God or someone else. Another thing you should keep in mind is whether it would make those who read it stumble (Romans 14:13 "Do Not Cause Another to Stumble - Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block").

What will your writing make people feel? Will they draw closer to God, or will they take an interest in Satan and join his side?

These are things to keep in mind!

>>23171162
What's the circumference of Jesus' anus?

>>23171162
"Christian Fascism is an oxymoron". Would you agree with this?

>>23171306
That is very solid advice. Thank you. Sincerely

Why did Protestants butcher the Bible?

Who are your favourite theologians?

>>23171314
My pleasure!

>>23171311
I agree. As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I remain politically neutral.

We do not lobby, vote for political parties or candidates, run for government office, or participate in any action to change governments.

The Bible gives solid reasons for following this course.

>>23171318
The nation of Israel never accepted the apocrypha as true books of the Hebrew Bible.

>>23171332
The apostle Paul :)

>>23171270
>The Bible gives solid reason for not running the government.
You cannot escape capitalism you hypocrite. Make your own bread then and work as God intended.

>>23171420
I am loyal to God’s Kingdom, which Jesus spoke of when he said: “This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth.” (Matthew 24:14)

As representatives of God’s Kingdom, commissioned to proclaim its coming, we remain neutral in the political affairs of all countries, including the one where we live.—2 Corinthians 5:20; Ephesians 6:20.

>>23171420
The devil ruling the world is not a statement on any government body. It's a spirit that runs through the zeitgeist.

>>23171215
So God is a character and not a unified, perfect being?

Were David and Jonathan gay?

>>23171162
Why do people still believe the teachings of the JW church when
1. the basis of their bible's translation is Charles Taze Russell's superior understanding of the Greek
2. it was proven by cross-examination in court on March 17, 1913 that Charles Taze Russell doesn't understand Greek at all.

He couldn't even identify Greek characters. If you were in a fraternity, you know more Greek than the guy that started the JW church.

>>23171162
>>23171187
You're the French girl off /int/ aren't you?

>>23171162
I've spent an unhealthy amount of time in the last 3 years reading historical studies of the Biblical Canon
Ama?

>>23171598
>>23171552

>>23171162
What is your opinion on literal vs metaphorical interpretations of the bible? For example the days in genesis during creation, do you interpret these as literal days as in 24 hours or periods.

>>23171162

Does God have wisdom teeth? if so, why?

>>23171583
Going to extremes is not a good way to present arguments and reach to conclusions.

Actually, to “prove” their accusations of cruelty and wickedness, some people pick the goriest details they can find in the Bible narratives and put them as a list. Even though the list may look overwhelming at first sight (even if we ignore irrelevant quotes or quotes out of context), they actually represent a small fraction of the over 23,000 verses in the OT.
We don’t want to deny those data (not all, at least), but we claim that, in order to try and prove their disproportionate accusations, those people provide slanted information which does not represent the personality of the God of the Bible altogether.

Let’s imagine that someone picks moments in our life when we were angry, and that person makes a list of things we have said and done in those moments. Even if we believe that our wrath was justified and we do not regret anything, that list would be showing a distorted picture of ourselves, because it is exclusively focused on one facet of our life.

Also, in order to try to make that picture look even more negative, they seem to exaggerate the personality of the God of the NT in the opposite direction, presenting him as a forgiving God to the extreme of overtolerance and passivity.

There's a famous quote by German writer Heinrich Heine who, in spite of having abundantly written against religion and traditional morality, at the end of his life he said —perhaps with a dose of impudence—: “God will forgive me. It’s his job”.
But that picture of God is also a distorted one.

Whether you believe that God is a real person or a fictional character, the God of the Old Testament is a really complex, rich and interesting character.

For instance, you may know the commandment “love your neighbour as you love yourself”. A commandment that acknowledges the need to love yourself and to have self-esteem, and that gives you a simple and powerful way to see how you should treat others. Is it in the Old or in the New Testament?

It is originally from the OT.

Another commandment: “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not glean your vineyard, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the foreigner.” OT, or NT?

Yes, again OT.

>>23171535
Going to extremes is not a good way to present arguments and reach to conclusions.

Actually, to “prove” their accusations of cruelty and wickedness, some people pick the goriest details they can find in the Bible narratives and put them as a list. Even though the list may look overwhelming at first sight (even if we ignore irrelevant quotes or quotes out of context), they actually represent a small fraction of the over 23,000 verses in the OT.
We don’t want to deny those data (not all, at least), but we claim that, in order to try and prove their disproportionate accusations, those people provide slanted information which does not represent the personality of the God of the Bible altogether.

Let’s imagine that someone picks moments in our life when we were angry, and that person makes a list of things we have said and done in those moments. Even if we believe that our wrath was justified and we do not regret anything, that list would be showing a distorted picture of ourselves, because it is exclusively focused on one facet of our life.

Also, in order to try to make that picture look even more negative, they seem to exaggerate the personality of the God of the NT in the opposite direction, presenting him as a forgiving God to the extreme of overtolerance and passivity.

There's a famous quote by German writer Heinrich Heine who, in spite of having abundantly written against religion and traditional morality, at the end of his life he said —perhaps with a dose of impudence—: “God will forgive me. It’s his job”.
But that picture of God is also a distorted one.

Whether you believe that God is a real person or a fictional character, the God of the Old Testament is a really complex, rich and interesting character.

For instance, you may know the commandment “love your neighbour as you love yourself”. A commandment that acknowledges the need to love yourself and to have self-esteem, and that gives you a simple and powerful way to see how you should treat others. Is it in the Old or in the New Testament?

It is originally from the OT.

Another commandment: “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not glean your vineyard, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the foreigner.” OT, or NT?

Yes, again OT.

>>23171318
Catholics don't pray to the dead
read Mark 12:27 ffs

>>23171552
No, they were friends.

>>23171583
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, we adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matthew 23:10.

The goal of Russell and the other Bible Students, as the group was then known, was to promote the teachings of Jesus Christ and to follow the practices of the first-century Christian congregation.
Since Jesus is the Founder of Christianity, it is him the founder of our organization.—Colossians 1:18-20.

>>23171622
In the Bible, the word “day” can refer to various lengths of time, depending on the context. For example, one portion of the account describes the entire creative period as one day.—Genesis 2:4.

Please see:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/ebtv/was-the-universe-created/

>>23171162
Can I get a qrd on The Book Of Numbers because I zone out every time I try to read it

>>23171552
I do this only on an armchair level
https://youtu.be OGPL57wrJ48?si=QoftC8q6eFU_CpVb
Is a good exposition of for and against
I think it's kinda obvious the arguments for are a stretch

>>23171162
Why is the bible so evil?

>>23171657
I understand. I too, admit that the Book Of Numbers can be difficult to read

If you want here's a 4-minute video that highlights the important and interesting parts of the book of Numbers:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/books-of-bible-intros/book-of-numbers/

>>23171162
What is your interpretation of:

Exodus 4:24-26 (Zipporah at the inn)
1 Peter 3:19-20 (Spirits in prison)
John 3:8 (The wind blowers where it listen)

>>23171675
“The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Galatians 5:22, 23

>>23171162
Why is Catholicism true?

>>23171679
>Exodus 4:24-26

Moses’ son was in danger of being executed because Moses had failed to circumcise him. Zipporah took swift action and circumcised her son. Consequently, the angel let go of him.

>1 Peter 3:19-20

Jesus made a proclamation to the wicked spirits regarding the fully justified punishment they are due to receive. It was not a preaching that held out any hope for them. It was a preaching of judgment. (Jonah 1:1, 2)

Once Jesus had demonstrated his faith and loyalty to death and then was resurrected—proving that the Devil indeed had no hold on him—Jesus had the basis for making such a condemnatory proclamation.—John 14:30; 16:8-11.

>John 3:8

Jesus uses the expression to teach a deep spiritual truth. At the end of the verse, pneuʹma is used in the expression everyone who has been born from the spirit, that is, who has been begotten by God’s holy spirit, or active force.

He tells Nicodemus that being “born from the spirit” can be illustrated with the blowing of the wind. Nicodemus could hear, feel, and see the effects of the wind, but he could not understand its source or its final destination. Similarly, those lacking spiritual insight would find it difficult to grasp how Jehovah, by means of his spirit, could cause a person to be born again; nor could they grasp the glorious future that lies ahead for such a person.

>>23171162
>studying the bible for 30 years

why?

>>23171698
I believe that the Roman Catholic Church teaches many doctrines that are in disagreement with what the Bible declares.

These include apostolic succession, worship of Mary, prayer to saints, the papacy, infant baptism, transubstantiation, the trinity, the doctrine of hellfire, plenary indulgences, the sacramental system, and purgatory.

These concepts are based on Catholic tradition, not the Word of God. In fact, they all clearly contradict Biblical principles!

>>23171709
To learn the truth about God!

>>23171710
How can you believe in sola scriptura when it's sacred tradition that determines the Biblical canon?

>>23171647
However, Russel's translations are your foundation for learning the identity of Christ, and the integrity of those translations is baseless.

>>23171710
Why are you so afraid of hellfire if it's not real as you seem to claim?

>>23171722
The "sola scriptura" principle says that the Bible, being inspired and complete, should be the only guide we need, and that any teachings or traditions that go against the Bible must be rejected. This was a reaction of Protestants against all the lies and traditions practiced by the Catholic church. And we as Jehovah's Witnesses of course agree with this idea: Our guide must be the Bible, not any human traditions.

On the other hand, the "sola scriptura" principle goes on to say that every individual must read the Bible and reach his own conclusions with the help of the holy spirit, without any church or authority interpreting it.

We don't fully agree with this point. While we encourage everyone to read and study the Bible, we also are aware that we need the help of the Faithful and Discreet Slave to understand some passages and to be united in our beliefs.

So the answer to your question is that we agree with the main tenet of "sola scriptura", but do not agree with all its ramifications.

>>23171728
Russell never translated the Bible thoughever. He wasn't a Greek scholar and never claimed to be one.

Jehovah's Witnesses in the US used the KJV until the 1950s.

>>23171731
I'm not, I just believe that cruelty does not endear us to God; it repels us.

Many have striven to be pious out of fear of hellfire, but God does not want you to serve him because you are terrified of him. Rather, Jesus said: “You must love Jehovah your God.” (Mark 12:29, 30)
Moreover, when we realize that God does not act unjustly today, we can trust his future judgments too.

Why do you think Christianity is the truth and not some other religion?

>>23171716
Why do you think you can find that in the bible?

>>23171753
>>23171754
Because where we can check biblical claims against verifiable truth, the Bible proves itself accurate.
History, archaeology, science, and philosophy have shown Scripture to be factual and consistent!

This correspondence between various forms of evidence is a major advantage the Bible has over the scriptures of any other faith system.
In many cases, it has been the deciding factor in converting skeptics and nonbelievers to faith in Jehovah!

>>23171668
I guess there is no point in joining the Bible fandom without good ships :/ you're kinda cute tho

The Bible is a fairy tale created by Hebrews to enslave goyim. Wake up!

>>23171767
Ok, so because the bible can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with your understanding of history, archaeology, science, and philosophy, you think it contains the "truth of god". Therefore you spent 30 years studying it. Were you a scientist/historian/archaeologist/etc before you decided to study it for 30 years? What page made you go "wow these guys knew science"?

>>23171740
The JW church teaches the heresy that Christ was an angel and the misunderstanding that he was crucified on a torture steak instead of a cross.
Wouldn't using the KJV contradict both of those?

>>23171740
The Protestants are in error (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

OP here

I'll go to sleep but I will come back tomorrow if the thread is still here

I really appreciated the discussion, /lit/ truly is the best board on 4chan :)

>>23171753
Not OP but prophetic evidence is a pretty good indication for Christianity. Personally, I like how Aaron's ordination ceremony as a priest in Leviticus mirrors events in the lives of Christ and his followers. Unfortunately, you have to be very familiar with the historical apologetics for the NT if you want it to mean anything.

>>23171802
>>23171807

>>23171187
>Yes, I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses in 2017!
Abandoning thread.

>>23171710
OP is right about all this.
All any of you need to know about the Catholic church, really, is that they altered the Commandments. It all stems from that.
They eliminated the second commandment, which is about idolatry, and split the commandment about covetousness into two to make up the difference. Why would they eliminate the commandment about idolatry, arguably, one of the most vital?
Well, just look at the statues, praying to Mary and the saints, the palaces, the gold, the Pope, the indulgence selling, the political authority of the Vatican throughout history -- these are all idols.
It's just Rome 2.0

>>23171891
>the indulgence selling
This nigga still lives in the Medieval Era. Get a new schtick, protties.

>>23171778
Did you know a study came out recently that confirmed that 90% of all animals on Earth appeared at the exact same time and contain distinct genetic separations instead of the prior theory of gradual emergence and genetic linkage?
And that this study was conducted mostly by scientists who are atheistic and not seeking to prove any Biblical claims?
And that when people began making the obvious inference after it was released, the evolutionary biologists just said "no this actually still lines up with evolution because reasons?"
God created all of the creatures on Earth.

>>23171897
It happened then and people still pay their tithes in Church, just not for the forgiveness of sins. My point is that this happened and that was one example I gave of many. Your point is Christopher Pooled, aka m00t.

>>23171897
Also Saturday is the Sabbath. Catholics altered it to Sunday to reflect Mithraic Sol worship.
These are simply facts on the historical record.

>>23171821
Every sect teaches heresy. None of it matters. The purity of the doctrine comes from what Christ taught as the proper orientation towards God, life and others. Even my criticisms of the Catholic Church are just historical points of insight. If a Catholic does what Christ said, he is a Christian and probably a better man than I.
It's worth it to know when you're being deceived, but it doesn't change intent, faith and deed, which is what the teachings are about. The best way to be a Christian is to read what Jesus wrote and embody it.

>>23171900
You have a very outdated view of the Catholic Church. A caricature that's no longer relevant.

>>23171918
No I don't. Every single thing I wrote, other than the indulgences and the outward, open political authority of the Vatican, is still entirely true.

>>23171905
>Also Saturday is the Sabbath. Catholics altered it to Sunday to reflect Mithraic Sol worship.
Take your meds. If you want to go the /x/ way it will not end up nice for Christianity at large.

>>23171921
Take my meds for stating a verifiable, documented fact of history?
Documented history is /x/ tier?

>Sabbath
kike bs

>>23171162
A couple that come to mind:
- Does God want people who believe in him to succeed materially? Or does he not give a shit about that?
- What do you do if God doesn't answer your prayers, or if you can't "hear" him?
- Does God view Jews and gentiles differently even after Jesus?
- Does God love Jews more than gentiles?
- Why do certain of Gods commandments that God gives in the New Testament seem to contradict or go against what he says in the Old (Old Testament has far more conquest, "You will loan to many nations, but none shall loan to you," the general proscription on food that's lifted in the NT)?

>>23171927
Christianity is the fulfillment of traditions which began in Judaism.

>>23171898
lol ok, so "a study" came out recently that agrees with your interpretation of the bible. What happens if a study comes out in twenty years that says otherwise, will you say you wasted the last 30 years? Argue about the study until you feel you can ignore it?

Or is it all a cope, and you are asking me those questions more to convince yourself? I suggest finding sturdier ground and/or a new reason for studying your favourite book. You don't need to answer any of the questions here, I was just curious what sort of motivations you have and I think I know the answer now.

ChatGPT thread

>>23171936
Christianity predates Judaism. Modern Kikery started centuries after Jesus was born. The Biblical Hebrew religion is not Judaism.

>>23171934
I am not OP and am just a man and could be wrong about anything but I'll give my two cents based on my understanding.
>Does God want people who believe in him to succeed materially? Or does he not give a shit about that?
It's neutral/irrelevant. The idea is if one comes by what one has through ill sought means then it is sin, and if one comes by what one has through obedience then it is not sin. Wealth itself is not a sin; but often is, because in our world, much wealth is often come by through sin. The idea is not to place material success over spiritual obedience and faith.
>What do you do if God doesn't answer your prayers, or if you can't "hear" him?
God always answers your prayers. If you can't "hear" him, you're not listening. This is called doubt, and is a tool of the wicked one, to lead you astray. Make of that what you will.
>Does God view Jews and gentiles differently even after Jesus?
God views all men the same according to their faith and deeds in this world. God loves all human beings universally and unconditionally, but the laws of the universe are what they are, we reap as we sew. God does not necessarily view Jews worse because they rejected Jesus. But, rejecting Jesus makes it harder to repay a debt for sin. If a Jew is a holy person then he is a holy person.
If an aboriginal who's never heard of Jesus has a pure heart then God takes note.
>Does God love Jews more than gentiles?
No, God loves all people universally and unconditionally.
>Why do certain of Gods commandments that God gives in the New Testament seem to contradict or go against what he says in the Old (Old Testament has far more conquest, "You will loan to many nations, but none shall loan to you," the general proscription on food that's lifted in the NT)?
All aspects of the Law that applied in the OT still apply in the NT and today. Jesus clarified something called priority. If a lower order rule conflicts with the ability to obey a higher order rule, then the higher order rule is to be followed. This is the point of the story where Jesus eats with the men with unwashed hands. The rabbinate scoff at this, saying he's breaking Law. Jesus says no, the command to love one's brother is of a higher priority than the command about washing hands before eating. Both commands still apply, but there's an order of operations. This is also why Jesus says he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Just my understanding.

>>23171187
>Yes, I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses in 2017!
Can you tell your fellow faggots to stop knocking at my door and following me around? No, I don't want to be part of your judeo-slave cult. No, your Christian denomination is not even cool. No, I don't care that you're the best Jewish slaves or whatever. STOP ANNOYING OTHER PEOPLE.

>>23171944
>What happens if a study comes out in twenty years that says otherwise, will you say you wasted the last 30 years?
No, and once again I'm not OP. I haven't spent 30 years studying the Bible and never claimed to.
But no. I don't base my faith on studies; just an interesting note that a secular study came out which aligns with Genesis.

Paul explicitly says that Jews killed Christ. Why do people ignore what he says?

>>23171802
Jehovahs witnesses have changed over time.
Russell's replacement (judge Rutherford) wasn't on his approved list of replacements yet he took over.

The annointed class amongst them at one point in time wore crosses.

Stuff like this is brushed off as being corrected by "new light". It's why they used to not allow beards but a few months ago decided after decades of saying no, it was ok

There is no point of actual truth for them. Only what their governing body decides is true for the time being

>>23171958
Thank you for posting evidence that Catholics changed the day from Saturday to Sunday. I know you don't realize that's what you did, but that's directly what that says.

>>23171270
>holocaust
lol, lmao even

>>23171979
Paul also says to love the Jews.
>>23171981
>There is no point of actual truth for them. Only what their governing body decides is true for the time being
Just like the Catechism.

>>23171934
Not op either but
>a
God wants us to be united to Him in His Son. If material success gets in the way of this then it is bad and those in such positions are often called to abandon it for Christ (see the relevant passages in the NT) but this is not always the case
>b
This varies from believer to believer, I generally act like a spoiled brat whose been denied the extra lollipop
>c
The wall of partition has been torn down so no
>d
No
>e
As per the NT, the purpose of the Law is to guard the nation of Israel from sin (especially idolatry) until the coming of the Messiah Jesus when a New Global Covenant with all peoples who come to God through faith in Christ is initiated
Since the age of "contamination" is over, these laws no longer serve a purpose. If the follow-up is why are they still in the Bible, the Church adapted the OT canon and decided to keep these in.

>>23171702
>Jesus made a proclamation to the wicked spirits regarding the fully justified punishment they are due to receive. It was not a preaching that held out any hope for them. It was a preaching of judgment. (Jonah 1:1, 2)
>Once Jesus had demonstrated his faith and loyalty to death and then was resurrected—proving that the Devil indeed had no hold on him—Jesus had the basis for making such a condemnatory proclamation.—John 14:30; 16:8-11.

Were these spirits something like demons then? Where and when did he do it? Were they in a literal prison or in "hell?" I heard that Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in "hell" in the standard conception.

Jehovah's Witnesses should be holocausted

>>23171990
>Paul also says to love the Jews.
source?

>>23171979
Because he wasn't an apostle

>>23172215
So what? He's canon.

>>23171162
I should be able to own a slave for six years, correct?

>>23172276
Only if you're a Jew and they're filthy goyim.

https://vocaroo.com/1ep8qYq0W5TM

>>23172227
Canon according to whom?

You asked why no one listens to Paul and I showed you the answer -- because he's not an apostle that's why no one cares about what he says

>>23172374
>Canon according to whom?
To anyone that matters.

>>23171162
What do you think of Thomas Aquinas and his philosophy?

>>23171162
what lesson am I supposed to pull from the book of job?

>>23171162
If God is all merciful and fair, why does he kills people that could've been redeemed or forgiven? For example, that time in numbers when someone was getting some firewood on sabbath and God asks the tribe to kill him, or that time in acts where a couole wants to join the church of Jesus but instead of donating all of their money they only donate half of it so they instantly die.

>>23172766
Jews are petty and vindictive so their fairy tales reflect that.

>>23171162
Why, considering the fact that most bronze age armies relied on spear infantry and mass archers and also that Israel was an iron-poor region that relied on trade and plunder for good weapons, does the Bible have so many references and metaphors involving swords, whereas their contemporaries don't seem to care about swords at all?

>>23171162
Man you started studying when I was 12. I used to flip through as a kid but never studied until recently when I found out about hermeneutics

>>23171802
>The JW church teaches the heresy that Christ was an angel

Many do not have the proper understanding of what the literal definition of "angel" in the Bible is. Both the Hebrew mal·´akh´ and the Greek ag´ge·los literally mean “messenger.”

When Jesus was on earth, he was God's foremost messenger. He was called the "Word" because he was God's Spokesman. (John 12:49, 50; 14:10; 7:16, 17)

Also, Jehovah's Witnesses do not consider that Jesus is just an angel. Scripture suggests that he is the ARCHANGEL. Archangel means “chief angel.” And since the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural, this suggests that there is only one such angel.

>and the misunderstanding that he was crucified on a torture steak instead of a cross.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7849852/Jesus-did-not-die-on-cross-says-scholar.html

>>23171803
These passages relate to the traditions the Thessalonians had received from Paul himself, whether oral or written. They do not relate to traditions handed down, but to teachings that they themselves had received either from the mouth of Paul or from his pen. Paul is not giving his blessing on all tradition, but, rather, only on the traditions he had passed on to the Thessalonians. This is in contrast to the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, which have been handed down from the fourth century and later, not from the mouth or pen of one of the apostles.

>>23171974
Of course, we realize that most people have their own religious beliefs and that not everyone is interested in our message.

Still, we are convinced that Bible teachings are lifesaving! That is why we continue “without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ,” as did the first-century Christians.—Acts 5:41, 42.

>>23171981
While Jehovah's Witnesses still adjust minor understandings of prophecy and periphery beliefs, major doctrines will not be changed because the doctrinal knowledge has increased so much that any recent changes have not been to doctrine but simple refinements in knowledge.

Solomon declared: “But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” (Proverbs 4:18)

The truth gradually becomes clearer to us as we persist in studying the Scriptures patiently and diligently. The meaning or significance of Bible prophecies also unfolds progressively. Daniel's prophecy clearly said that true knowledge would "increase" during the time of the end (Daniel 12:4).
Only at "the conclusion of the system of things" would "the righteous ones would then shine as brightly as the sun" (Matthew13:24- 30, 36-43; 24:45-47; Acts 3:20- 21).

Most other religions have proved that they will not change doctrines such as the Trinity, the immortal soul, and hell fire even though their own scholars admit these beliefs are not taught in Scripture. In contrast, Jehovah's Witnesses have always been willing to change any belief in order to harmonize better with increased knowledge of Scriptural teaching.

So rather than rejecting Jehovah's Witnesses understandings of Scripture simply because they progress in their understanding of it, this should be recognized as a comendable effort!

>>23172186
The apostle Peter identifies these spirits as those who had “once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days.” (1 Peter 3:20)
Clearly, Peter was referring to spirit creatures who chose to join Satan’s rebellion. Jude mentions the angels who “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place,” saying that God “has reserved [them] with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”—Jude 6.

In the future, Jesus will bind and throw into the abyss both Satan and those angels. (Luke 8:30, 31; Revelation 20:1-3) Until that time, these disobedient spirits are in a condition of dense spiritual darkness, and their final destruction is certain.—Revelation 20:7-10.

>>23172672
Please see:

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/faith-in-god/men-women-bible/story-of-job-integrity/

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/faith-in-god/men-women-bible/job-healed-by-god/

>>23172766
God is merciful when he can, but firm when he must.

>>23171778
These for example:

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/

>>23171934
>Does God want people who believe in him to succeed materially? Or does he not give a shit about that?

God warns us not to trust in their riches nor be distracted by them. (Proverbs 11:28; Mark 10:25; Revelation 3:17) Rich or poor, all should focus on doing God’s will.—Luke 12:31.

>What do you do if God doesn't answer your prayers, or if you can't "hear" him?

It is important to remember that God is all-knowing and is aware of the entire timeline of history. He knows every possible outcome of every possible choice in every possible situation; we do not. He sees the “big picture”; we see a partial brushstroke.

Proverbs 3:5 says to “trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.”
When we get a “no” answer, we must trust that whatever we asked for was not God’s will.

>Does God view Jews and gentiles differently even after Jesus?
>Does God love Jews more than gentiles?

No, he does not. Jesus saved faithful humans when he gave his life as a ransom sacrifice. (Matthew 20:28)
Thus, the Bible calls Jesus the “Savior of the world.” (1 John 4:14) It also states: “There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”—Acts 4:12.

Jesus ‘tasted death for everyone’ who exercises faith in him. (Hebrews 2:9; John 3:16) Thereafter, “God raised him up from the dead,” and Jesus returned to heaven as a spirit creature. (Acts 3:15)
There, Jesus is able “to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.”—Hebrews 7:25.

>>23171934
>Why do certain of Gods commandments that God gives in the New Testament seem to contradict or go against what he says in the Old (Old Testament has far more conquest, "You will loan to many nations, but none shall loan to you," the general proscription on food that's lifted in the NT)?

God gave his Law specifically to the ancient nation of Israel. (Deuteronomy 5:2, 3; Psalm 147:19, 20)

The Mosaic Law is not binding on Christians, and even Jewish Christians were “released from the Law.” (Romans 7:6) The Mosaic Law was replaced by “the law of the Christ,” which includes all that Jesus instructed his followers to do.—Galatians 6:2; Matthew 28:19, 20.

So the key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians.

Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example).
Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system).
Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules).

None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the stake, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

>>23171218
If the Bible were just propaganda for Jews, then it's propaganda because over and over the Jews do absolutely retarded things and invoke God's wrath.

>Worshipping the golden calf
>Demanding meat when God is sustaining them with manna from heaven
>Demanding a king to be like other nations despite Samuel's wise rule
>Ignoring everything the prophets say and being cast into exile

Did you even read the book? Jeremiah tears them to shreds so hard they can still feel it 2600 years later.

>>23171162
Why did Jesus wash the disciple's feet?

i'm scared i'll turn you into an unbeliever

>Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
>For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
>And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
What did Jesus mean by this? (Matthew 10)

>>23173967
Jesus knew that his teachings would divide people and that those who follow him would need courage to do so in the face of opposition. This opposition could affect peaceful relations among family members.

In saying “Do not think I came to bring peace,” Jesus meant that some of his listeners needed to think about the consequences of following him. His message could divide people. Of course, Jesus’ motive was to proclaim God’s message of truth, not to damage relationships. (John 18:37)

Still, holding faithfully to Christ’s teachings would be challenging if one’s close friends or family members rejected the truth.

>>23173895
To teach them humility.

>>23173924
Many have tried and failed

ahia, i cravity sono stati bastonati dagli nct wish

How'd the jews take 40 damn years to reach the promised land? Google maps shows it's like 2 weeks on foot.

>>23173233
idk

>>23173982
The Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years as a result of their lack of faith in God and disobedience. This period of wandering served as a time of purification and preparation before entering the Promised Land, as well as a consequence for their actions.

>>23172398
I haven't read his books, sorry

>>23171990
>Just like the Catechism.
Catholics will at least tell you they rely on traditions

Witnesses will tell you they follow what the Bible "really" says then will hand you a watch tower magazine or brochure

>>23174470
The Watchtower is not an authority on anything. The Bible is.

The Watchtower is based on and has as its only authority God's word The Bible. Every article therein looks to the Bible, therefore to God, for wisdom and guidance.

The Watchtower is a Bible study aid, make no mistake. It is not to be read instead of it. It uses the Bible to point the reader to Jehovah's Kingdom, the only hope for mankind and for which Jesus taught us to pray. (Matthew 6:9)

Why did you lie?

>>23171162
What exactly are angels?

>>23174643
>The Watchtower is a Bible study aid, make no mistake. It is not to be read instead of it
Yet witnesses read said literature. Bible Study without the "study aid" is not encouraged as it can lead to disagreements with what the organization has decided to believe at that moment.

As you've said here >>23171740
>We don't fully agree with this point. While we encourage everyone to read and study the Bible, we also are aware that we need the help of the Faithful and Discreet Slave to understand some passages and to be united in our beliefs.
So no, I am not lying. You've made clear yourself that directives given by the governing body takes precedence over the Bible.

>>23171187
>Rev 22; 18-19 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
How do you feel about the fact that you refute the Bible's final command with your heresy?

>>23171236
>What does Jesus mean when He says Nathanael is an Israelite in whom there is no guile?
NTA, but another JWanon. Funny you mention that since last week I was talking with a brother about that. He said that Jesus was probably referring to the fact that a few minutes ago Phillip had told him he had found the Messiah in Nazareth, but Nathaniel mot likely knew that the Messiah must have been born in Bethlehem, not in Nazareth, which leads to him saying in a slightly prejudiced way "can anything good come from Nazareth?"
Jesus says that there is no quile (deceit in out NWT) because he can't be fooled easily, and is at the same time very straightforward in his speech
>What does the last verse angels ascending and descending on the Son of Man mean?
Jesus was probably referring to Jacob's Vision in Bethel, Genesis 28:10-14. the Stairway to Heaven (heh) represented the connection of Jehovah's domain with the earth and where the angels "came down" to fulfill His purpose.
Jesus is saying they will see evidence that God's purpose is being achieved by jesus

>>23171240
It's the 24th of March anon, big difference there. Are you by any chance the french jw who posted a while ago in /x/?

>>23174679
If a JW is not convinced by a certain point in our publications, nothing happens. Nobody is excommunicated for seeing one point differently.

Thousands of JWs send letters to the governing body with questions about explanations they don't agree with.

The Faithful and Discreet Slave appreciates that feedback and sometimes new understandings come as a result of it.

Why did you lie for the second time?

>>23174710
What heresy?

>>23174738
>It's the 24th of March anon

Darn, I didn't even notice my huge mistake. Thank you brother

>Are you by any chance the french jw who posted a while ago in /x/?

Yes I am!

>>23174662
Angels are personal spiritual beings who have intelligence, emotions, and will.

God uses his faithful angels to help people today.

>>23174766
>God uses his faithful angels to help people today.
?

>>23174785
See:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no5-2017-september/angel-help/

>>23174766
>If a JW is not convinced by a certain point in our publications, nothing happens.
I don't believe that is accurate. If this were true you all would be the equivalent of unitarian universalists and shunning would not be a policy you'd practice.

Again, the organization speaks out of both sides of its mouth

>>23174787
>There is no evidence that God is now using angels to help people miraculously in the ways described in the Bible.
No Biblical angels?

>>23171934
Not OP but another JW.

>1.
God doesn't hate rich people nor does he purposefully make his people poorer. He only really cares about it when you start caring more about your bank account rather than Him, to the point money becomes your "God". (Matthew 6:24)
Usually in this world, getting loads of money requires great effort from you, and leaving other things in second place. However, Jehovah promises his people that they will always have what they need *as long as* they show their trust in Him.
I've known personal examples of brothers who were fired from their jobs, and were naturally worried about how they would sustain their family. But at the same time, they used the extra time they had to preach more than before, or helping in maintenance of the Kingdom Hall.
They've all found jobs again, some offering less than their previous, or some even better than the ones they had, and they never lacked what they needed daily. They know Matthew 6:31-34 is true
>2.
Look harder for his answer. The Bible is God's Word, so how can you expect to hear him if you don't read?
Perhaps pause for a moment and consider the problem again. Pray that Jehovah may help you see the situation from another perspective, or at the very least, ask Him for some of His peace (Phillipians 4:6,7)
>3.
In a certain way, yes. the Jews aren't God's Chosen people anymore, there now is a "Spiritual Israel" made of the people who read and obey the teachings in the Bible, and adapt their lifestyle into that of an exemplary Christian.
God's Chosen People are not a genetic trait now but a personality one.
>4.
Not anymore. Jews are also gentiles now, unless they convert (Preferably into JWs :P)
>5.
Related to the previous 2. Moses' Law was made to physically separate the Israelites from Pagan nations, and in other cases of the law, to protect them in higiene as well.
I can't remember the text right now, I believe it was Paul in Romans 1-4. But Jesus's sacrifice is the end of the Law, as his death provides hope for ALL nations, not only the Israelites. "The Law was put on the stake with him", Paul says somewhere I can't remember
This means Christians are not under the Law anymore and can technically do what was forbidden there
>Oh, so now I can commit incest since we don't follow the law anymore!
Not so fast. Some of these commandments still "apply" as they show God's opinion on certain subjects, and he doesn't change (Malacchi 3:6). So, incest may not be "illegal" anymore, but it still is shunned by Jehovah (and in many countries where it is illegal to marry your sister)

>>23171972
Your understanding is quite solid anon. What translation do you use?

>>23174800
Contrary to the claims you make about us, Jehovah's Witnesses are free to hold their own ideas and opinions where they do not conflict with the core tenets (below) that distinguish Jehovah's Witnesses as God's true people:

1) The Bible is God’s message to us (2 Timothy 3:16, 16), which teaches us that

2) Jehovah (Or some lingual variant of the tetragrammaton) is the name of the living and only true God, the Father (meaning is more important than pronunciation; Exodus 3:13-15),

3) the holy spirit is God's invisible active force by which He accomplishes His will and helps us to overcome temptation (Ezekiel 36:27-31),

4) Jesus Christ is Jehovah's only directly created Son who left heaven and became a man and sacrificed his human life and body, and was resurrected on the third day so that we might have salvation through faith in his ransom sacrifice (John 1:19; Philippians 2:5-11) and through whom ...

5) 144,000 men and women are being chosen by God right now through resurrection to eternal life in heaven to become kings and priests over ...

6) the earth where an untold number of righteous and unrighteous people will be resurrected for a chance at everlasting life in paradise,

7) hellfire is the total destruction of the life of an individual into nothingness,

8) we reasonably respect and obey those taking the lead in the congregation, our parents, and the superior authorities,

9) speak in agreement,

10) do not get involved in politics,

11) do no harm,

12) value life,

13) do not hate our brothers,

14) do not have sex outside marriage between a man and a woman,

15) do not worship idols,

16) abstain from blood (including eating blood, sex with a wife in minstruation or used for medical purposes),

17) and observe reasonable shunning of former members (goes back to do no harm).

Why did you lie for the third time?

>>23174801
Here is how angels help us today:

Angels are used by God as he directs his servants in the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom of God. (Revelation 14:6, 7) This direction benefits both those preaching and those hearing the good news.—Acts 8:26, 27.

Angels help to keep the Christian congregation free of contamination by wicked people.—Matthew 13:49.

Angels guide and protect those who are faithful to God.—Psalm 34:7; 91:10, 11; Hebrews 1:7, 14.

Soon, the angels will bring relief to mankind by fighting alongside Jesus Christ to eliminate wickedness.—2 Thessalonians 1:6-8.

>>23174801
>No Biblical angels?
They don't show up like they did before. They stay invisible to our human eyes, but still help in ways we may not notice at first.
I personally remember one time a huge branch from a tree in the terrain of the Kingdom Hall almost fell on me, but I displayed some quick reflexes that I still refuse to believe came from me.
In retrospective I probably wouldn't have died from that, but it would have left a nast concussion

>>23174821
That's awesome!

I too have some interesting stories like yours to share, maybe another time

Btw, do you have a reddit account?

A teenage brother recently created a subreddit for genuine JWs. Only those who are invited can post

https://www.reddit.com/r/JWUnited/

The creator made me admin, so don't hesitate to join if you want

The sub is still in its infancy, I haven't worked on it yet but I'll do it soon

By the way, might as well do a JW roll call
How many of you are lurking this thread?
What boards do you frequent?
Name your top 5 books and your current read (besides the Bible)

for me:
In order of most to least frequented
/lit/, /a/, /tv/ /k/
Top books:
>Crime and Punishment
>The Little Prince
>All Quiet on the Western Front
>20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
>The Time Machine

Currently reading Wuthering Heights. I hate every character in it but can't stop reading

>>23174839
>/k/

What did he mean by this

>>23174815
>Contrary to the claims you make about us, Jehovah's Witnesses are free to hold their own ideas and opinions where they do not conflict with the core tenets (below) that distinguish Jehovah's Witnesses as God's true people
So there are areas in which people have to be in step? Weird, that conflicts with what you said previously
>>23174766
>If a JW is not convinced by a certain point in our publications, nothing happens. Nobody is excommunicated for seeing one point differently.

Again, the organization speaks out of both sides of its mouth.

>>23174827
Might think about it. I have gotten to genuinely despise that website, but perhaps between brothers it may not be that bad.
I know of a surprisingly high number of brothers who use reddit though. I didn't think it would have become so mainstream.

The one thing that keeps me here in 4chan is its anonimity, which is defeated by having an account. So I'll probably pass

>>23174815
>2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; Revelation 14:6, 7.
Not about angels helping today but about what has not yet happened.

>Psalm 34:7; 91:10, 11; Hebrews 1:7, 14; Matthew 13:49; Acts 8:26, 27.
Seems to be about what angels do rather than who or what they are.

>>23174839
>Name your top 5 books and your current read

>The Sign of Four
>The ABC murders
>The Tokyo Zodiac Murders
>The Gold Mask (Edogawa Ranpo)
>813 (Maurice Leblanc)

I mostly read mystery novels (if not exclusively lol)

I like to browse /tv/, /ck/, /his/, and /co/

>>23174821
>They don't show up like they did before. They stay invisible to our human eyes, but still help in ways we may not notice at first.
Sounds unlike them.

>I displayed some quick reflexes that I still refuse to believe came from me.
?

>>23174848
>So there are areas in which people have to be in step?

Re-read my post carefully

>>23174850
No worries

>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
>The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CDdvReNKKuk

>>23174848
Of course, if a member of the congregation insists in actively and publicly teaching something that contradicts our beliefs, then that's a different question. But that's true of all organizations.
You cannot be a member of Greenpeace and promote whale hunting or throwing nuclear waste in rivers.

Why did you lie for the fourth time?


>>23174850
No worries

>>23174875
The Bible shows that you must have works, or acts of obedience, to prove that your faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, this does not mean that you can earn salvation. It is “God’s gift” based on his “undeserved kindness,” or “grace.”—Ephesians 2:8, 9.

>>23174851
At the end of the present age, for example, the Bible says that the angelic hosts of heaven will accompany Christ as He comes again in glory (see Matthew 25:31)

>>23174844
Hey, what can I say? I love History, particularly Military history. I also like bolt actions. If I lived in the US, I would try to get a mauser 98 and learn to hunt. It's the only use I could have with a gun as a JW.
>https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2017484
Girls und Panzer also converged many of my favourite things
>>23174848
You aren't kicked off because you refuse to believe Jesus is the Son of God and not God himself. Before baptizing, you have to essentially do a verbal test on our main tenets to confirm you understand our beliefs. If you fail it, no big deal. You can try some time later

If you were born in a JW family, but never agreed with it, you're not expelled either. The only situations a brother is expelled/shunned is when he commits a sin and shows no remorse for it

>>23174856
Sign of the Four is the last one I've yet to read from Conan Doyle's Sherlock. Is it better than the Hound? I was surprised at the quality of the Hounds of Baskervilles, it's very well written despite the fact many don't consider Sherlock as "high quality literature"

>>23174886
>acts of obedience, to prove that your faith is alive.
Correct. Problem arises when people twist it and view it as they have to maintain their salvation through works. Works are a sign of faith, not the maintenance of it.

>>23174896
>Is it better than the Hound?

I personally like the story better but Hiund still has the best atmosphere imo

>>23174909
Well, I'll be looking forward to it once I finish Wuthering Heights.

>>23173578
You must realize that your worldview revolves around a very primitive modality, that it entails the archetypal "Heavenly Father" and "Lord" who not only plays the warped role of a tyrannical father, but also of a being with total dominion over you, rendering you a slave. Not only this, but you are threatened with great suffering and torture at the hands of this master if you do not surrender yourself to them and commit yourself slavishly to his cause. This is psychotic and sadomasochistic, you profess to love a being who would throw you in a lake of fire if you say the wrong thing. And beyond that, if you believe that at your death you will be gathered to the arms of Jesus and dwell in bliss in heaven forever, don't you at least subconsciously long for death? If heaven is complete bliss, and the earthly life is prone to many tragedies and horrors, you must long for heaven and eschew life unless for some reason you have a psychological need to stay alive (either because you seek suffering for pathological reasons or you secretly have doubts about the existence of heaven and thus wish to live).

To sum up, your world view relies on slave morality and is life denying and death worshiping. The fact that you can accept all of this indicates a deeply disturbed mind. I hope you seek help.

>>23171162
why is jacob loved and essau hated?

>>23175243
esau was silly enough to give up his birthright for a bowl of lentil soup
also the old testament is very obviously the preaching of a cult where might justifies right, so if you have to trick your family, lie, fuck your father, commit acts of terrorism, etc., it's all ok as long as it gets you ahead

>>23175243
Esau did not appreciate his birthright.

That said in either numbers or Deuteronemy (cant remember which), God tells Israel to not attack the edomites (esaus descendents) as He has given that land to them. Lines up with Jacob's blessing of Esau but also shows God doesn't hate Esau to the point he completely casts him out and remembers he is of Abraham's children.

Why can't Jesus be God? I know JW hate the trinity but reading the new testament, I can see how they get to that theory/idea. JW twist what is meant by the trinity and think it's polytheism when it isn't, they are forms of God in one entity.
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/JHN.14.KJV What I get from this whole chapter is that Jesus is god in the flesh, when Jesus dies, the holy spirit another form of God is sent to mankind.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
To the Holy Spirit:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

>>23171379
>The nation of Israel never accepted the apocrypha as true books of the Hebrew Bible.
The Talmud cites Sirach as "scripture" and Sirach is used in the Jewish Yom Kippur liturgy.

The Black Obelisk, the only extant image of an Israelite king, shows Jehu wearing a Phrygian Cap. What are the implications of this?

>>23175808
Jesus is a god in the sense of being divine, but he is not the Father. Jesus had just told Mary Magdalene:
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

Remember, too, why John wrote his Gospel. Three verses after the account about Thomas, John explained that he wrote so that people “may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God”—not that he is God.—John 20:17, 28, 31.

Also since Jesus perfectly reflected the personality of his Father, Jehovah God, he could rightly say: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also.”—John 14:9.

The holy spirit is God’s power in action, his active force. (Micah 3:8; Luke 1:35)
God sends out his spirit by projecting his energy to any place to accomplish his will.—Psalm 104:30; 139:7.

>>23175856
>The Talmud

lol

>>23171162
My friend was having a healthy israel palestine debate and said that israel was the Jews land first and it’s their holy land. I said uhh in the Bible doesn’t it start off with Jews conquering Israel and killing the natives? Like Joshua and that prostitute hiding them story. He had no clue what I was talking about and I started to doubt myself, wondering if I even understood the story.
Who is in the right?

>>23177217
yeah the old testament is all about the jews genociding mfers

>>23171162

What does priest penis taste like

>>23177221
So is it safe to say that based on history, basically nobody has a solid claim to that land?

>>23177247
I'd say so and the jews are the earliest documented genociders

>>23177217
Neither. The Scriptures do not promote any one human government or exalt one ethnic group or people over another.

As Jehovah’s Witnesses we do not advocate any political arrangement, which would include Zionism. The political neutrality of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been well documented, and in some lands the Witnesses have suffered severe persecution rather than compromise that neutrality.

We are convinced that only God’s heavenly Kingdom will bring lasting peace to this earth; no human government or movement can accomplish this.

A core tenet of the religious beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, regardless of where they live, is obedience to the laws of secular governments. They do not rebel against governmental authorities or participate in armed conflict.

1) Does God "hardening the pharaoh's heart" in Exodus mean that God is taking away the pharaoh's agency and setting him up to be destroyed? Seems like something the Devil would do, not God.
2) Does Genesis 19:30-36 mean God is in favor of daughters getting their father drunk and having sex with him?

>>23177751
1) Rotherham states that the Hebrew sense of the texts involving Pharaoh is that “God permitted Pharaoh to harden his own heart—spared him—gave him the opportunity, the occasion, of working out the wickedness that was in him. That is all.”—The Emphasised Bible, appendix, p. 919

2) Jehovah condones neither incest nor drunkenness. (Leviticus 18:6, 7, 29; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Lot actually deplored the “lawless deeds” of Sodom’s inhabitants. (2 Peter 2:6-8) The very fact that Lot’s daughters got him intoxicated suggests that they realized that he would not consent to having sexual relations with them while he was sober. But as aliens in the land, his daughters felt that this was the only way to prevent the extinction of Lot’s family. The account is in the Bible to reveal the relationship of the Moabites (through Moab) and the Ammonites (through Benammi) to Abraham’s descendants, the Israelites.

>>23171974
When I moved to a new town a while back, the LITERAL DAY I moved in, JWs came to my door. I still don't know how they knew it and it creeps me the fuck out that they did. They knew what they were doing though; when I opened the door, there was this fucking gorgeous, 9/10 Mexican shortstack with enormous tits who was the one talking to me. Of course, behind her was this old crone with this really unsettling, kind of baleful look in her eye. If it were the girl alone, I might have tried inviting her in, but I knew I wasn't gonna get anywhere with the hag's clutch on her shoulder. I did watch her leave through the peephole though. The ass looked fucking fantastic, too.

>>23177792
1) Who cares what Rotherham (whoever he is) states? What does the Bible actually state? Rotherham's take sounds like a cope.
2) Everything you cited was later in the Bible. Why would any of it apply to events that happened before?

While you're chewing on that...
1) If Adam and Eve were the first people, who did Cain and Abel marry?
2) How did the plants survive The Flood? Also, the fish and waterfowl would presumably survive.
3) In Genesis 8.19, Noah lets the animals leave the ark, but in 8.20, he makes a burnt offering of them? Did he save them just to burn them? Or did he give them time to breed first?
4) Who did the descendants of Noah marry? Each other?

>>23177876
The answers for your first and last are the same.

Consider how eveyone before the Flood used to live over 400 like it was no big deal, and had their sons when they were 100 years old. This shows that the early man was not the same as us, probably due to being so close to the first and only perfect humans.
It's quite likely that the conenital diseases associaed with inbreeding came out to be much, much later than in the days of Cain or Noah. Probably in the days of Moses, as it is in those times that Jehovah writes in the Law that one must not lie with their sister or mother. But before that, it honestly was the only way to reproduce

3)

Remember he takes 7 of some of the clean animals instead of 2? (Genesis 7:2), those are most likely the ones he sacrificed. By that time, humans already did animal sacrifices to Jehovah (Abel) so the term "clean animal" probably reers tk those that were used for sacrifices

2.
Honestly good question. Considering the Flood was around 1 year, I wonder if plant seeds would survive that long. God probably did some shenanigans to ensure the survival of plant life.
The interesting thing is that the dove came with a twig in its mouth, implying it found a full grown tree
Good question nonetheless. Might investigate a bit about it

>>23177983
Hey man. Can you tell me why JW sends big-titty Mexicans to my door? How do you guys know what I moved in the day I did so? The only thing I can think of is that leasing agent was a JW or something. Is that the sort of thing you guys do? Most importantly, can you send the big-titty Mexican back... just without her guardian harpy? I've heard JW girls are freaks in bed.

>>23171187
>Yes, I converted to Jehovah's Wit-

yes I have a question, how can you be nontrinitarian having studied for 30 years? are you retarded?

>>23178246
The weight of scriptural evidence supports subordinationism, the Son's total submission to the Father, and God's paternal supremacy over the Son in every aspect.
We acknowledge the Son's high rank at God's right hand, but the Father is still greater than the Son in all things!

Father, Son, and Spirit all participated in creation and salvation, but that in itself does not confirm that the three are each co-equal or co-eternal.
God is only explicitly identified as "one" in the Bible, and the doctrine of the Trinity, which word literally meaning a set of three, ascribes a co-equal threeness to the being of the infinite God that is not scriptural!

>>23178345
>God is only explicitly identified as "one" in the Bible
Why does god say "Let Us make man Our image"?
Sounds like a co-equal relationship

>>23178425
How?

>>23178425
He's talking to Jesus, as he was already Created. They both worked together in creation

>>23178086
>Can you tell me why JW sends big-titty Mexicans to my door?
Because all JWs must help in our field ministry. Therefore, JWs of all ages, races and sizes can be seen preaching door to door or in our stands.

I can assure you JWs don't have the power you think we have. That's more something I can see the Mormons doing kek.
>How do you guys know what I moved in the day I did so?
Most likely a coincidence, or maybe Jehovah wants you to listen to us.
Depending on where you live, perhaps you will see JWs more or less frequently.

>can you send the big-titty Mexican back... just without her guardian harpy? I've heard JW girls are freaks in bed.
No i cannot and no you won't be getting a one night stand with her as any sexual relationship outside of marriage is sinning for us. Sorry not sorry

>>23177097
>Jesus is a god in the sense of being divine, but he is not the Father.
This sounds like such a load of crap to be honest, 2000 years of vagueness on this, why would God want us to be confused an argue about him and Jesus and the relationship? It makes me think the bible wasn't divinely inspired at all since a perfect being has produced something imperfect through he writers of the bible when he could produce something perfect.
It's not even a misinterpretation, you can read it both ways, JW are preaching some idea that Jesus is "divine", "With God" "has the powers of God", "is the point of call for humans to reach", "The judge" but that he isn't God.
>>23178345
"God is only explicitly identified as "one" in the Bible, bro Jesus words say this:
John 10: 30 "I and the Father are one.” and 38 understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
>>23177097
>The holy spirit is God’s power in action, his active force.
So you agree with me that it supports trinitarianism?

>>23178345
>Father, Son, and Spirit all participated in creation and salvation, but that in itself does not confirm that the three are each co-equal or co-eternal.
So you acknowledge three aspects exist but that they might not be part of the one god, how does that make any sense whatsoever?
Okay Jesus is said to be the first born of all creation but wouldn't the Father also technically be the first born as well?
You acknowledge that the spirit is God's active force so you are already half way to the trinitarianism beliefs, remember that >>23178345
>set of three,
Is wrong, it is three forms of God, not three Gods. JW always are wrong about trinitarianism and what it actually means (on purpose).

>>23171162
How does it make you feel that Nietzsche owned your faggot god.

God is Love

>>23178345
>father Son and spirit all participated in creation
>Son is not God,
how can he not be God when is participating in creation where we know if an entity creates the universe it‘s God.
It’s not too late to turn back, arianism has been refuted for 1500 years.
Trinity is completely biblical and Jesus does things that are completely exclusive to God.
Jesus is God

>>23178900
I hope you're either trolling or just a dumb 15 year old.

>>23179387
Is that important?

>>23178345
You're deeply delusional and have to mistranslate the opening of John to cope. At the end of Luke, Christ is openly *worshiped.* If you read the Bible and come to the conclusion that worship is suitable for anyone but God then you are a fraud, it's that simple.

>>23171162
how can one base morality on the feelings of another?
all things good must trace back to the highest good, and if god and i disagree on what that is, it makes no sense whatsoever to serve him, because it means god is, from my perspective evil,
thus i can learn nothing from god, because if he disagrees he is evil, and if he agrees i remain the same

>>23178900
Nietzsche owned a big mustache.

>>23179387
JWs & Morman's & Jack Chick tracts & Hare Krishna & Scientology & Seventh Day Adventist & Davidian SDA& Faithful Word Baptist Church...

>>23178345
>that is not scriptural
What scriptures? The King James Bible?
Did King James belong to a Protestant church that subscribed to the Nicene Creed?
all of a sudden a 150 year old cult wants to
change things up and cancel holidays?

>>23177983
So Cain and Abel married their own sisters? Or had sex with Eve and conceived their own wives? You realize that's incredibly gross and cringe, right?
Here's some more to chew on:
1) In Exodus 9.6, all the livestock of the Egyptians died. But in Exodus 9.19-20, the Egyptians hurried their livestock (and slaves) off to a secure place? But aren't all their livestock dead?
2) In Exodus 20.3, God says "you shall have no other gods before me". Doesn't that imply there are other gods of his stature?
3) In Exodus 20.5, God admits to being jealous (and again in 34.14), and advocates punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject Him. Sounds more like Satan (or the Gnostic Demiurge) than any God I would want to follow. And on that note...
4) Marcion of Sinope is credited with assembling the first version of the Christian Bible, from a bunch of separate books that were circulating individually at the time. He was also a Gnostic, and deliberately set out to portray the Old Testament God as the Gnostic Demiurge. Care to comment?
5) Exodus 22.16: Does God really say that the victim has to marry her rapist?
6) Exodus 25-27 describes how to build the tabernacle. Where are illiterate nomadic shepherds supposed to get all that gold?
7) Exodus 28: Where are illiterate nomadic shepherds supposed to get all those gems?
Assuming you don't run away, I'll resume later with Leviticus. It gives me a hankering for barbecue.
And I see you had no answers for >>23177812.

>>23178551
>any sexual relationship outside of marriage is sinning for us
no, Exodus 22.16 says she'll have to marry the one that defiled her

>>23177983
Your gross "inbreeding" theory isn't universally accepted...see https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_717.cfm .

>>23177217
Josephus posited that the Exodus narrative was based on the Hyksos fleeing Egypt and the tribe of Levites had Egyptian sounding names for a while. The rest of the tribes of Israel probably never left the holy land.

Also, keep in mind that before the industrial revolution that well over 95% of people lived in rural areas and not cities. What a king and city were in Joshua's time were absolutely not what they are now. A king was likely a petty tribal chieftain and a city was probably what we'd call an encampment with 500 or less people.

>>23178900
>went fucking catatonically insane then died
Sounds like God owned Nietzsche.

>>23178666
“My Father is greater than I [Jesus].”—John 14:28.

“I [Jesus] ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.”—John 20:17.

“To us there is but one God, the Father.”—1 Corinthians 8:6.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”—1 Peter 1:3.

I don't see what's vague here!

Jesus never claimed to be equal to God. Instead, Jesus worshipped God.

As for John 10:30, when Jesus said, "I and the Father are one," he did not mean that they were "one substance", or "one God", or co-equal and co-eternal, but rather that he and the Father have a "unity of purpose", and that the context indicates that Jesus was saying that they were "one" in pastoral work.
The point being that the Father and the Son were united in the divine work of saving the 'sheep'.

Concerning the Holy Spirit, by referring to God’s spirit as his “hands,” “fingers,” or “breath,” the Bible shows that the holy spirit is not a person. (Exodus 15:8, 10) A craftsman’s hands cannot function independent of his mind and body; likewise, God’s holy spirit operates only as he directs it. (Luke 11:13)

Notice what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament...The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”

>>23179368
Amen!

>>23179387
The expression “Son of God” acknowledges that God is the Creator, or Source, of all life, including that of Jesus. (Psalm 36:9; Revelation 4:11)

Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven before he was born as a human on earth. Jesus himself said: “I have come down from heaven.”—John 6:38; 8:23.

God created Jesus before he created anything else. Regarding Jesus, the Bible says:

“He is the firstborn of all creation.”—Colossians 1:15.

He is “the beginning of the creation by God.”—Revelation 3:14.

Also, John 1:1 states “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”—John 1:1

The “beginning” referred to in this verse cannot mean “the beginning” of God, because God had no beginning. Jehovah God is “from everlasting to everlasting.” (Psalm 90:1, 2)
However, the Word, Jesus Christ, DID have a beginning! He is “the beginning of the creation by God.”—Revelation 3:14.

>>23179755
In John 1:1 the statement “the Word was with God” indicates that two separate gods are discussed in the verse.

It is not possible for the Word to be “WITH God” and at the same time BE God Almighty!

The context also confirms that the Word is not Almighty God. John 1:18 states that “no man has seen God at any time.”
However, people did see the Word, Jesus, for John 1:14 states that “the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory.”

Where people bowed down to Jesus, the specific word "pro·sku·ne′o" was used. It is most often translated as "worship". Unger’s Bible Dictionary says that it means to ‘kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage.’
Thus, the meaning is clear: offering one’s self in subjection.

If you have other questions please don't hesitate!

>>23179912
>What scriptures?

Any Bible teaches that the Father is greater than all things.

>all of a sudden a 150 year old cult wants to change things up

After the death of the apostles, the Church embarked on a "Great Apostasy", diverging from the original teachings of Jesus on several major points.

In the 19th century, Charles Taze Russell and his associates formed a Bible study group in the 1870s in Pennsylvania, developing teachings that they considered to be a revival of the great truths taught by Jesus and the Apostles.

Both the Great Apostasy and the Bible Students' subsequent restoration of original Christianity were a fulfilment of Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds at Matthew 13:24-30,36-43.

>and cancel holidays?

Before deciding whether to celebrate a particular holiday, Jehovah’s Witnesses consult the Bible. Some holidays and celebrations clearly violate Bible principles. When that is the case, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not participate.

>>23179755
Just like how the son of a human is fully human, the sun of God is fully God, God created the Son from his own essence, from his own nature.
But he made us through indirect means

>>23180808
My problem is that this guy brainwashes people here that are not familiar with this abomination of a heresy and not only puts in danger his own soul but also other people who are naive enough to believe him.

>>23180812
>>23180808
If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not.

>>23171162
When should I hate? Why? If you think that I shouldn't hate, why?

>>23180832
It is acceptable to hate those things that God hates; indeed, this is very much a proof of a right standing with God. “Let those who love JEHOVAH hate evil” (Psalm 97:10).

The closer our walk with the Lord JEHOVAH and the more we fellowship with Him, the more conscious we will be of sin, both within and without!

Do we not grieve and burn with anger when God’s name is maligned, when we see spiritual hypocrisy, when we see blatant unbelief and godless behavior?

The more we understand God’s attributes and love His character, the more we will be like Him and the more we will hate those things that are contrary to His Word and nature!

>>23180808
Indeed!

>>23180812
If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not.

>>23180828
No there wasn’t a time, before universe was made there was no time and space. The only way an entity can exist outside of the totality of possible things which is the universe is that this person is necessary in itself and the only thing that is necessary in itself is uncaused and Jesus is uncaused, its not that there was a time when he wasn’t, he was always eternally with the father.
In the beginning there was the word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the logos of God it is his mind, do you make your own logos and mind or is it always with you?

>>23180868
John 1:1 reveals details about Jesus Christ’s life before he came to earth as a human. (John 1:14-17)

In verse 14, “the Word” (or “the Logos") is used as a title. The title “the Word” describes Jesus’ role in communicating God’s commands and instructions to others.
Jesus continued to make known God’s word during his ministry on earth and after he returned to heaven.—John 7:16; Revelation 1:1.

“The beginning” refers to the time when God began his creative work and produced the Word.
Thereafter, the Word was used by God in the creation of all things. (John 1:2, 3)
The Bible states that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” and that “by means of him all other things were created.”—Colossians 1:15, 16.

The phrase “the Word was a god” describes the divine or godlike nature that Jesus possessed before he came to earth.
He can be described in this way because of his role as God’s Spokesman and his unique position as the firstborn Son of God through whom God created all other things!

>>23180868
John 1:1 reveals details about Jesus Christ’s life before he came to earth as a human. (John 1:14-17)

In verse 14, “the Word” (or “the Logos") is used as a title. The title “the Word” describes Jesus’ role in communicating God’s commands and instructions to others.
Jesus continued to make known God’s word during his ministry on earth and after he returned to heaven.—John 7:16; Revelation 1:1.

“The beginning” refers to the time when God began his creative work and produced the Word.
Thereafter, the Word was used by God in the creation of all things. (John 1:2, 3)
The Bible states that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” and that “by means of him all things were created.”—Colossians 1:15, 16.

The phrase “the Word was a god” describes the divine or godlike nature that Jesus possessed before he came to earth.
He can be described in this way because of his role as God’s Spokesman and his unique position as the firstborn Son of God through whom God created all other things!

>>23171162
When is Jesus coming back?

>>23180873
Begotten not created, he precedes constantly and eternally from the father, he is fully God just like the son of human
is fully human.
Either he is God or he is nothing.
Your jw view is unbiblical because it twists the simplicity of John 1:1.
The word was God, was means was, if he thought like you he would say the Word was like God, Godlike, divine etc.

>>23180890
2060

>>23180890
Jesus said: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36, 42)
He added that the timing of the end would be unexpected, “at an hour that you do not think to be it.”—Matthew 24:44.

Even though we cannot know the exact day and hour, Jesus did provide a composite “sign,” or group of events, that would identify the time period leading up to the end of the world. (Matthew 24:3, 7-14)
The Bible refers to this period as “the time of the end,” “the end times,” and “the last days.”—Daniel 12:4; 2 Timothy 3:1-5.

>>23180897
>Beget
>verb
>past participle: begotten
>1. bring (a child) into existence
>2. cause; bring about.

So God created Jesus. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.— Colossians 1:15, 16.

Jesus never claimed to be on the same level as Almighty God. He said:
“The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

Jesus Christ also said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matthew 4:10) The Bible states:
“For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”—1 Corinthians 8:5, 6.

Consider the following accurate translations of John 1:1:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”—The Bible—An American Translation, by J.M.P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

“The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”—The Bible—Containing the Old and New Testaments, by James Moffatt.

“The Word was in the beginning, and the word was with God, and the word was a god.”—The New Testament in an Improved Version, edited by Thomas Belsham, based on a New Testament translation by William Newcome.

“In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”—The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield.

>>23180890
Nobody knows; but I have been thinking lately about how technically, 2033 would be 2000 years after his death exactly. Again, this doesn't really mean anything about his return, but, id bet some crazy shit goes down around then.

>>23180911
Well you consider 32 translations that say “was God”.
https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm

>>23180920
Jesus is indeed called God, but he is not the same Goe he was with at the beginning, which is the Father.

Jesus is a distinct divine being, whoch is why John makes a distinction as well on the basis of the definite article.

In the original Greek he makes a distinction between the Word who is theos (god), and the God he was with at the beginning, who is HA THEION (THE God).

So an honest translation will make a distinction on the basis of the article, such as "the Word *a* god".

If you have further questions do not hesitate to ask!

>>23180920
Jesus is indeed called God, but he is not the same God he was WITH at the beginning, which is the Father.

Jesus is a distinct divine being, whoch is why John makes a distinction as well on the basis of the definite article.

In the original Greek he makes a distinction between the Word who is theos (god), and the God he was with at the beginning, who is HA THEION (THE God).

So an honest translation will make a distinction on the basis of the article, such as "the Word *a* god".

If you have further questions do not hesitate to ask!

>>23180927
Completely grammatical distinction, based on the role of the word in a sentence the makeup changes.
Theon is the the accusative singular form of Theos. And ho just mean the.

I wonder if you’re dishonest on purpose to make people confused or you simply didn’t know.

>>23171974
Jehovah's Witnesses are not a Christians because they fail the basic test of belief in the Trinity which is shared by all Christians.

>>23180949
>Completely grammatical distinction

That's not the only distinction John makes, he tells us that he was *with* HA THEION (THE God). So there are two beings being discussed in this verse.

The Bible always distinguishes between Jesus and God. For example, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:3:
"The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

He didn't just say that the head of Christ is the Father, but that above him there is God. So Jesus is not part of a godhead, he is ontologically another deity.
And that was after Jesus went to heaven, so a trinitarian cannot say that this is about his human nature.


The purpose of this verse is to affirm Jesus' divine nature prior to the incarnation, and that he was with God way before he came to earth. That Jesus is not just some human like any other.

>>23180950
The God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages:

“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.

>>23180958
Greek is very tricky.
>While the Greek lacks the definite article on theos in the clause under discussion, that doesn't mean the English should be translated with an indefinite article. Greek and English do not enjoy a one-to-one relationship between their words. There are times in Greek when the article is present but not translated into English. Likewise, there are places where the article is not present in the Greek but the English requires it, or in this case, requires something to show the definiteness of the word.

So just because theos has no ho doesn’t mean we should place “a” before it, JW translation is unjustified.

Also Jesus being God does not make God two Gods. Its not two beings its two persons sharing the same divine essence of Godness, they are relationally distinct but essentially identical. So wheb you say God you literally mean one God but three persons.

>>23174985
Since your seculatlr materialist worldview is based around the self and pleasure as the highest goods you wouldn't understand that we, as Christians, view this life as a unique opportunity to glorify God not in spite of suffering but through that very suffering.

>And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. ~2Cor12:9

>>23180985
And when Jesus says God is greater than I, he only means he is greater in roles, he has a more significant role.
And Jesus only submits to God according to his human nature, not his God nature.

>>23180985
Actually, it's justified because it follows the same pattern than John. The article of theos is anarthrous, lacking a definite article, so the verse refers to Jesus' pre-human existence as "a god" or a divine one as distinct from "the God". John could have written kai ho theos ên ho logos if that were his intended meaning.

So yes, Jesus is ontologically a different god, not the same God he was with!

>>23180958
You are playing willfully ignorant of the doctrine of the Trinity which has always entailed belief in one God.

>>23180990
Actually, Jesus submits to God even in his divine nature.

The Father is greater than the Son is all circumstances.

>>23180993
I know what the doctrine of the trinity is.

You believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

But the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

Yet you believe there is still one God.

Let's replace the terms.

Alex is human, Clover is God, Sam is human.

But Alex is not the Clover, Clover is not Alex, and the Sam is neither Clover nor Alex.

How many humans are there?

It defies logic to say that there is only one human. Same goes for the trinity, which dishonors God by denying his nature as the only omnipotent and omniscient Creator.

No other person is his equal, and the Bible states time and again that the Father is above Jesus.

>>23181001
Im catholic and I want to share my understanding lf trinity which better to be expressed as triunity.
The three persons are essentially distinct, one and the same in their being, but distinct only and only in relation to each other, and not in relation with anything outside or the world.
We human beings are distinct beings, we are relationally distinct to each other as well as essentially. But for God the person are the same but they interact witch each other, when God interacts with the world, he interacts as one God.
So when weather pray to Holy Ghost or Jesus or Father, it doesn’t really matter because to us they are one and the same.
Imagine circles with different Colours are perfectly drawn on top of each other on a paper, to an observant its only one circle and they are essentially one circle, but in relation to each other the circles know that they are distinct.

>>23181028
*are essentially identical
Mistake

>>23181001
Your (mistyped) thought experiment fails because the essential attributes of God and human differ. Three humans cannot be one human however God can be three persons because there is no limit to God's omnipotence. Your suggestion dishonours God for this reason.

>>23181028
a) God is eternal
b) God knows all that can be known
c) God is above all things
d) God is all-powerful

I trust that we both believe these premises, right?

Now, lets see if Jesus posesses the same caracteristics.

a) Is Jesus eternal? The Bible uses terms like "Son", "Begotten", "Firstborn", "Beginning of all creation". Every one of these words point to a start of existence in time, not to an eternal past. Jesus himself said that he "lives because of the Father" (John 6:57)

b) Does Jesus know all things? In Mathhew 24:36, he says that only the Father knows the hour of the End of this system. Notice two things: Jesus didn't say that the Holy Spirit knows. And he didn't say that "his divine nature" knows. So noone can't make up the excuse that his human nature didn't know but his divine nature knew.

c) Is Jesus above all things? No, the Father is Jesus' God. Paul says God is the head of Jesus. And Jesus said that the Father is greater than he.

d) Is Jesus all-powerful? In John 5:30 Jesus said "I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will." Who is the one who sent him? According to John 17:3, it is "The Only True God".

So here, we can conclude that Jesus is not part of a trinity of persons that share a divine essence. But that he is distinct as a being from the One being who created him, and Davis told us his name:

“You, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

>>23181049
Where does it say that the Son is eternally begotten? (which is an oxymoron btw)

>>23181049
That’s what I said, God is three persons and one being. Three circles perfectly overlapping.

>>23181063
That's the trinitarian beliefs, which is not what God reveals to us.

One person is Almighty God. And Jesus is his Son.

Jesus is a God by nature, and he acts in behalf of God. But he still has a God above him.

It is good that you honor Jesus, but you are ivereaxlting his position in the same level as JEHOVAH, and this is by definition idolatry.

>>23181061
Where did I mention anything regarding that? You didn't reply to my refutation of your thoughts experiment.

>>23181063
Brother you may be confused, my post >>23181049 was replying to the JW tripfriend.

>>23181077
>Where did I mention anything regarding that?

If that is not you >>23180897 ,
then I apologize

However, it still stands that the Son id begotten and thus had a beginning.

>You didn't reply to my refutation of your thoughts experiment.

Your argument is that God is an essence and that this essence can exist in three co-equal and co-eternal persons. But the Bible never divides God into three persons, it says he is One.

What is there for me to refute?

It still presents a logical inconsistency. If three persons share a divine essence, there are still three Gods.

>>23181074

John 1:1
>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
>And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I wonder why this was put at the very beginning of the gospel of John?

>>23181088
Because Jesus is God's first creation, he existed before he came to earth as a human.

Thus, John tells us that Jesus is a divine being, a god, and since his creation at the beginning he existed alongside the Eternal God who has no beginning.

>>23181091
>Jesus is a god who exists alongside the eternal God

There is only one God, my friend. If I am understanding you correctly then this is idolatry. I honestly didn't think that JWs believed this. I thought that you were basically Muslims without the Quran and Hadiths but this seems like something else altogether. Correct me if I'm wrong on your beliefs, however.

>>23181098
Spiritual beings are angels, demons and the like.
They inhabit the heavenly realm which is parallel to our earthly reality.

All of these spiritual beings have their own unique characteristics. But the biblical authors have one word that can refer to all the inhabitants of the spiritual realm.

In Old Testament Hebrew the word is "Elohim".
In New Testament Greek, it is "Theos".

And here is the thing...this word gets translated in lots of different ways, depending on which being is referred to: angels, god with a lower case "g", or even God with a capital "G".

So, one word can refer to any of these beings. This is because Elohim is a category title. It can designate any spiritual being that belongs to the heavenly realm.

It's a title, not a name. Like the word "mom"!
The word mom can refer to lots of really different kinds of people but they all share in common the same role in a family. Then, let's say a group of brothers and sisters are talking and one says, "Hey, it is mom's birthday!", they're using the title like it's a name.
However it would be clear that they are referring not to ANY mom, but THEIR mom.

The same goes for the biblical authors. They called their God "JEHOVAH". But they also sometimes refer to him with the category title "Elohim", using it like a name because they all know who they are referring to.

But of course, JEHOVAH is in a class of his own, not like any other. Which is why they say things like, "JEHOVAH is the Elohim of Elohim", that is, the chief Elohim among all the others. Or, they will say, "There is no Elohim besides JEHOVAH", meaning, no other spiritual being compares to him because only he is the ruler and creator of all things.

So among all of the spiritual beings out there, only one is the source and creator of all things, including the Elohim.
That is biblical monotheism: that one Elohim, JEHOVAH, is above all other Elohim, that is, the other spiritual beings.

>>23181101
Thanks for the clarification, now let's go back to John 1:1 and John 1:14 where Jesus is identified as God.

John 1:1
>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
>And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

>>23181114
John 1:1 doesn't say the Word is the same God he was with. Hence why he is "with" him.

John is here speaking of two distinct gods, which is why he uses the definite article to make that distinction.

You can deny it all you want, the facts are in this very verse you mentionned.

>>23181114
John 1:14 also says that the Word (Jesus) is begotten of the Father, so he is not eternal.

Only God is eternal and unbegotten so I'm not sure why you quoted this verse since it doesn't support your view.

>>23181058
>Is Jesus eternal?
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelations 1:8
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. Hebrews 7:3
John 1:3 - says that everything was created through Jesus and nothing was created without him. If Jesus himself was created, this verse wouldn't make sense. Notice if Jesus was created just like other things creating the totality of everything through him is impossible because he would be a member of this totaity, and notice that the passage does not say everything else, making an exception for Jesus as a member of everything.
Is Jesus All knowing? Yes
Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.“ John 16:30
Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” John 1:48. Jesus and Natheniel had never met before.
But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?
Is Jesus above all things? Yes
Now that the nature of the true distinction between the person of Jesus and the person of the Father will never be touched by us and forever will be incomprehensible, but to us and the world they are one in the same.
Jesus is above and over all (col 1:17)
Who else is above all? Father, now how can they be both above all when they are two separate beings? It only makes sense if they are one being.
Is Jesus all powerful? Yes
All the miracles he does is not in the name of the father he commands the lame to walk. He walks on sea without praying to God.
You should naturally conclude that Jesus is all powerful if you accept the earlier answers.
Jesus is equal with father, they are one God.

>>23181074
No you do idolatry who says Jesus is a God, a distinct God from Jehova,
I am the one who believed in one God, not you

>>23181182
>“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelations 1:8

Bruh, this is Jehovah speaking. Not Jesus

>John 1:3 - says that everything was created through Jesus and nothing was created without him

Exactly! By using the word "through", John tells us taht Jesus is the agent that mediates between God and the rest of creation. He is not the originator of creation!

>Is Jesus All knowing? Yes

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Matthew 24:36)

>Jesus is above and over all (col 1:17)

Except the Father. So Jesus is not anove all things.

>All the miracles he does is not in the name of the father he commands the lame to walk. He walks on sea without praying to God.

"I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will."

>You should naturally conclude that Jesus is all powerful if you accept the earlier answers

Matthew 28:18
"I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth."

Jesus did not posess that authority, it was goven to him.

>Jesus is equal with father, they are one God.

Where does it say they are one God?

>>23181189
The word 'god' in the Bible can be used in different degrees and with different senses. But they all share the basic meaning of "powerful" or "mighty", which is what the original Hebrew term means.

The word "god" can be used for prophets (Exodus 7:1), angels (Psalm 8:5), kings (Psalm 45:6), judges (Psalm 82:6), and even Satan! (2 Corinthians 4:4)

It's the same word but diverse meanings are intended.

Moses is called God because he received from God the ability to do miracles in front of Pharaoh.
Judges were called Gods because they had authority to rule over the nation of Israel.
Satan is called God because he influences the entire world to rebel against the Creator.

But when the Bible says there is only one God, it is in the sense of only person that is Almighty, Omniscient and Eternal, and it is this person alone that we must render sacred service (latreia in Greek)

>>23181193
Though him is there yes but some verses also say by him.
Also you ignored hebrews 7:3
Mathew 24:36 I believe Jesus does know but keeps it from them for a reason.
He already knows and tells the signs. Col 1:17 and And in him All things hol together.
Now I can see our position is not that different.
You just say Jesus is a separate deity. But don’t forget
Jesus says I am in the father and the father is in me. I and the father are one.
He says: I am. Which is God‘s favorite way of introducing himself.
Before moses was, I am.
Idk about you but there is sufficient reason for me to believe Jesus and Father are one. He literally says this.
But you have to ignore other verses and impose your own interpretation on them. Where as I take the sentences as they are. End of story.
Im not going to post here again.

>>23181193
why did the jehovah witness church predict that jesus would return in 1914 yet he never did then they said it was an "invisible" return?

>>23181227
>but some verses also say by him.

Which one?

>Also you ignored hebrews 7:3

Like other humans, Melchizedek was born and he died. However, the names of his father and mother are not furnished, his ancestry and posterity are not disclosed, and the Scriptures contain no information about the beginning of his days or the end of his life. Thus, Melchizedek could fittingly foreshadow Jesus Christ, who has an unending priesthood. As Melchizedek had no recorded predecessor or successor in his priesthood, so too Christ was preceded by no high priest similar to himself, and the Bible shows that none will ever succeed him.

>Jesus says I am in the father and the father is in me

Can you please quote what Galatians 2:20, Colossians 1:27, 1 Corinthians 6:19 and John 15:5 say?

Thanks
>Mathew 24:36 I believe Jesus does know but keeps it from them for a reason.

...So you're saying he lied?

>He already knows and tells the signs

He does know the signs, but he didn't known when JEHOVAH will send him to judge.

>>23181234
Jehovah's Witnesses also said:
"We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises . . . We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them."
Zion's Watch Tower, January 1, 1908, page 4110

>>23181240
God is not subject to morality, he does not lie, he keeps the truth from them.
Whatever God does permitting evil, lying or anything else is not condemnable.

It can also be that he really did not know, that still does not mean he is not all knowing since he shows omniscience in the verses I quoted. 4 quotes against 1 quote.

>>23181245
ok i have another question, since the catholic church and protestant church existed for hundreds of years and the jehovah's witness church only existed since the 1800's why do you think god would just sit back and watch for all those centuries until some guy had to come up with the real true church, by this same logic why are you not mormon?

>>23181259
Or it could be that Jesus voluntary blocked out the omniscience of his divine nature and decided not to know, this is also known as the process of self emptying.
How is that possible? Well, he is all powerful and if he wants he could do that.

If this is not the case then how on earth would he show omniscience in the verses I quoted.

>>23181280
Put into context of the whole Gospel, and all the things that have been and said and done this is the best possible explanation, because it fits better.

>>23181189
>I am the one who believed
So you've lost your faith recently? Slip of the "tongue"?
>>23181227
>Im not going to post here again.
No one leaves 4chan. You're here forever.
Still no answers to my questions, i.e. >23180042, >23180055, >23180086, and >23177812. Maybe OP came here to test his faith, and decided to leave before he lost it completely.

im not american
what is a jehovas witness

>>23181302
Slip of the tongue

>>23181302
Put the #
>23180042 #
>23180055 #
>23180086 #
>23177812 #

>>23181345
>>23180042 #
>>23180055 #
>>23180086 #
>>23177812 #

>>23181302
Yeah he probably left for good.

>>23181265
Even better, why should we operate on the JWs playing field, in which he creates his own context for scripture when we have 2000 years of consistent and robust church teaching to lean on, all of which, back to the early church fathers, confirms the Trinity and Jesus as God

>>23180529
This>>23181265 & this >>23181394


>>23181335
A cult.

>>23181412
christianity is a cult by definition, what's your point?

>>23181424
What definition? What dictionary ?

>>23181280
>>23181291
>>23181259
>Or it could be that Jesus voluntary blocked out

The absolute state of trinitarians lmao

>>23181335
Hi,

You can read all about us in this BBC article which I find thoroughly accurate

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/witnesses/

>>23181265
In the second century, some who called themselves Christians began to respect Greek philosophy more than the Scriptures.
Later, others taught the opinions of Roman emperors and those whom they called Church Fathers, rather than teaching the Bible. This is how many false teachings began.

Despite the general apostasy, there have always been anointed Christians on earth to defend the truth. (Matthew 13:24-30)

Of course I cannot say for sure who they were. But through the centuries, many have spoken against false religious beliefs and practices.
Some of these people were Archbishop Agobard of Lyons in the 9th century, Peter of Bruys, Henry of Lausanne, and Valdès (or, Waldo) in the 12th century, John Wycliffe in the 14th century, William Tyndale in the 16th century, and Henry Grew and George Storrs in the 19th century.

Jehovah’s Witnesses today continue to do what the Bible requires of them, and their beliefs are based only on Bible truth!

>>23181430
well it is in its original meaning but anglos seem to find it derogatory now for some reason
>>23181446
i dont think i will

>>23181430
here, it's wikitionary but i genuinely think it's the most thorough out of the dictionaries i've tried using and has etymology as well

>>23181451
Not derogatory, simply a reference to time
in existence.

>>23181459
Jehovah's Witnesses live and work in the midst of other people. They have nothing to hide. In fact, they desire to tell anyone who is willing to listen about EVERYTHING that they believe!

Their Bible-based beliefs are fully explained in publications that are available to anyone. Additionally, they put forth special effort to invite the public to attend meetings to see and hear for themselves what takes place!

>>23181459
JW remove themselves from voting and celebrating holidays >remove themselves from greater society
And the JWs are new in comparison to proper Christianity
A CULT
not derogatory, it is what it is, nevertheless.

>>23181469
>JW remove themselves from voting

We voted for Christ, we are citizens of God's Kingdom

>and celebrating holidays

Jews and muslims don't celebrate certains holidays either, are they a cult?

>>23181469
>And the JWs are new

We exist since the 1st century

>>23181467
>>23181469
>>23181479
>>23181482
mhm, what do you say of this?
“Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

>>23181479
They celebrate birthdays and lowkey celebrate
Christmas. Most wouldn't expect them to celebrate Christian holidays.
They vote
Judaism and islam are regions in their own right but I'm sure there are CULTS, off shoots,
With the NEW & IMPROVED interpretation in those two religions.

>>23181482
Correct
source: A copy of the watch tower found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls

>>23181467
JW's being cultish underclass women and minorities who believe the world is ending and all their sociopolitical rivals will be eliminated by Jesus makes them closer to early Christianity than any other extant sect

>>23181446
>The absolute state of trinitarians lmao
It‘s the same way God forgives and FORGETS our sins retard. He is all knowing yet willingly refuses to forget.
He blocks out his omniscience in this instance and decides to forget an information. It’s not that he lies bc God is not a liar, he literally forgets.
Jesus‘s not knowing of the hour is exactly the same nature, otherwise his omniscience in many other instances would be inexplicable.
Isaiah 43-25:

“I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

>>23181525
*willingly refuses to remember.
Im ESL sorry :)

>>23181496
John 1:1
John 1:14

The Word made flesh

>>23181537
explain your interpretation

>>23181352
I am back. Typing during my work break.

Let's see how many can I tackle before I have to go back to work

First off, something I want to acknowledge first is that I feel most of your questions aren't asked in good faith, but rather with the intention to test my knowledge and try to get me into a gotcha or a contradiction. However, I will humor you bu answering at least these ones.
Another thing, is that some of your questions delve into the subject of Gnosticism. I don't know much about it other than it is not exactly a "religion" per se, but it does contain a single, almighty being called the "demiurge" which looks like a lion with a snake body or something. Since I don't know much about it I can't comment on that subject
Alright. Let's see

>So Cain and Abel married their own sisters? Or had sex with Eve and conceived their own wives?
The former most likely. Related to this >>23180086 posted this article
>https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_717.cfm
And honestly, I don't see what did I say that seemed contrary to this. We JWs agree on the fact that Abel was probably centennial, and that he obviously had more brothers and sisters
I also mentioned that being so close to perfection, congenital diseases from inbreeding were almost nonexistent. It's most likely that God added the law against incest to the Israelites due to them being further away from perfection.
I checked our online library, and lo and behold: Where did Cain get his wife from?
>https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010649

Also
>Your gross "inbreeding" theory isn't universally accepted
>posts article which says they probably married either their younger sisters or their nieces

Anyways. Onto the juicy part

cont.

>>23181539
Did you read the scriptures?

>>23181557
i dont know what that is

>>23171162
This is a long thread so I am not going to look through it for answers. Does the bible instruct what political positions you are supposed to have? Also; how do people argue for their beliefs, especially with an atheist, when the source for their positions is the bible?

>>23181599
>Does the bible instruct what political positions you are supposed to have?

Yes, neutrality

>how do people argue for their beliefs, especially with an atheist, when the source for their positions is the bible?

You don't have to believe in the Bible to know God exists

>>23181599
Be aware anon that OP is a Jehovah's Witness as therefore his stances do not necessarily reflect that of Christians.

>>23171162
What so you think of Martin Luther's writings his stance in general?

>>23181556

1) In Exodus 9.6
This one was actually interesting. I noticed that in our NWT, it says "all sorts of livestock", while others like the KJV, American Standard, and Byington say "All the cattle". I don't know hebrew as to tell you what the original said.
I believe that our version tries to be as correct as possible, while maintaining the original meaning, but I'm sure you don't have such a high opinion of "our" Bible. Anyways, based on the NWT, you can explain this discrepancy by the fact that all types, but not every single type of livestock died, and such, some remained to be then pelted by hail

2) In Exodus 20.3, God says "you shall have no other gods before me". Doesn't that imply there are other gods of his stature?
No, quite related to your third point however,
>God admits to being jealous
Supposing you had a wife/gf. How do you think she would feel if you had an AI girlfriend which you would spend more time talking than your actual GF?
Obviously an AI girlfriend app cannot be compared to your actual partner, as she is actually real. But, would that make her feel any less jealous? On the contrary, I bbelieve she would be mad that she "loses" to lines of code kek
God is jealous in the same way. He is the almighty God, the one and only. And yet, humans pick up a piece of wood, carve it, and call it a god which they worship.

3) >advocates punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject Him.
Those who HATE him, mind you. But yes. This was somewhat prophetical as roughly 3 generations of Israelites passed during the time they were in Babylon and the last few years prior where there was no fixing it.
Also, there are other things that can affect the descendants of someone who has sinned. Since we're fresh on the topic on incest, the genetical problems will probably end his genetic line. Fetal Alcoholism is another "sin of the father" that comes to mind. Did God cause this child to be born with this illness? No

cont.

>>23181700

4) Marcion of Sinope is credited with assembling the first version of the Christian Bible, from a bunch of separate books that were circulating individually at the time. He was also a Gnostic, and deliberately set out to portray the Old Testament God as the Gnostic Demiurge. Care to comment?
God uses imperfect people to fulfill his purpose. In this case, to preserve the Bible. Not everyone who has worked to preserve and translate the Bible was always correct however.
Martin Luther is undeniably an important figure in the history of Christianity, as he shattered the monopoly the Catholic Church had on all religious matters, and subsequently allowed for other brave men to actually analize what the Bible teached.
Wycliffe's effort to translate the Bible to the Common English for example, or Ulrich's analysis of the Bible were baby steps into the right direction. We don't consider either as proto JWs, but we believe Jehovah used them to allow all people to eventually be able to read the Bible by themselves.
I hadn't heard of Sinope before, but even with his erroneous beliefs, I believe Jehovah used him to preserve His Word
5) Exodus 22.16: Does God really say that the victim has to marry her rapist?
I checked several versions (KJV, ESV, ASV, Reina Valera) and neither says anything about rape. Rather, it says that the man seduces the virgin and then lies down with her (consensually) before marriage. Essentially, he did his bed, now has to sleep in it. No deadbeat parenting in Ancient Israel
In summary, no. There is another part of the Pentateuch where the law specifies as to what to do with the rapist. I can't remember where exactly it is, but it usually involved the death of the man (and/or woman if she didn't report on him)

>6) and 7)
Exodus 12:35-38. They virtually plundered the Egyptians as they were leaving. Not only that, but a "mixed company" of others who weren't Israelites joined them with their possesions as well.
>>23181517
kek, though there are some rich JWs out there as well

>>23171162
we're the egyptians based for segregating the mutt population of moses who was a slave/egyptian born. where the slaves were literally niggers and the egyptians were based atlanteans, like get the fuck out of her mutt moses

>>23180890
>"T̶r̶u̶l̶y̶ I̶ t̶e̶l̶l̶ y̶o̶u̶, s̶o̶m̶e̶ w̶h̶o̶ a̶r̶e̶ s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ h̶e̶r̶e̶ w̶i̶l̶l̶ n̶o̶t̶ t̶a̶s̶t̶e̶ d̶e̶a̶t̶h̶ b̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶y̶ s̶e̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ S̶o̶n̶ o̶f̶ M̶a̶n̶ c̶o̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ i̶n̶ h̶i̶s̶ k̶i̶n̶g̶d̶o̶m̶"
>5̶0̶0̶
>1̶2̶6̶0̶
>1̶3̶7̶0̶
>1̶5̶0̶4̶
>1̶5̶2̶4̶
>1̶5̶2̶6̶
>1̶5̶3̶3̶
>1̶6̶7̶3̶
>1̶6̶9̶4̶
>1̶7̶0̶0̶
>1̶7̶5̶7̶
>1̶7̶7̶0̶
>1̶7̶9̶3̶
>1̶8̶1̶4̶
>1̶8̶2̶9̶
>1̶8̶3̶6̶
>1̶8̶4̶4̶
>1̶8̶4̶7̶
>1̶8̶6̶1̶
>1̶8̶6̶3̶
>1̶8̶7̶4̶
>1̶8̶9̶0̶
>1̶8̶9̶1̶
>1̶9̶0̶1̶
>1̶9̶1̶4̶
>1̶9̶1̶5̶
>1̶9̶3̶0̶
>1̶9̶3̶9̶
>1̶9̶4̶3̶
>1̶9̶6̶4̶
>1̶9̶8̶2̶
>1̶9̶8̶8̶
>1̶9̶9̶4̶
>1̶9̶9̶9̶
>2̶0̶0̶0̶
>2̶0̶1̶1̶
>2̶0̶1̶2̶
>2̶0̶1̶3̶
>2̶0̶1̶5̶
>2̶0̶1̶9̶
>2̶0̶2̶0̶
>2̶0̶2̶1̶

But I'm sure the next prediction will be right!

>>23181909
I don't understand the list of numbers

>>23181977
Presumably years someone thought he'd be coming back and didn't.

>>23181977
Anon, if you cannot extrapolate from the context what those numbers are, there is no hope for you cognitively.

JW are tricky slimestars in that they think Jesus is a God but not THE God. How they get there is by ignoring texts and sentences. How does this work spiritually?
If this were the 50s JW would be worshiping and praying to Jesus as well so I think it is some weirdo cult that can't understand what is written in the book without editing and omitting to get whatever the "watchtower"- random people in america says to preach.

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me." Isaiah 45:5

Just think how nuts it is that they will say there is ONE God, Jehovah and then in the next sentence Jesus is a God or divine and then not have any problems with this.

>>23181909
>>23182008
>>23181993
The greek for "kingdom" also translates to something like "royal glory". Right after Christ said that was the transfiguration so that event has already occured.

>>23176302
>the implications of this?
the gamers (were) online in phoenicia and sidon Kryst found ancient (formerly elder) scrolls while slumming backroads and resurrected himself into the Bible-II Bnosis: (we are online in the prophetic saturday cartoon) then he floated as the mighty ghost /(slash) protective spirit spear with the gamers cimmerians scythians wypipo on the scattered journey to heavenly hyperborea (Great Work) akahigher aethers of cosmos but those who don't want gamers to triumph lowered they SQ (spiritual iq) and locked them in a pyramid asylum that manifests on a denser level as a imageboard experience. meaning that the only way forward is forward is forward is forward to the future which is the stamped into the past as the projection of the glory of that which is the first and the last AMEN (AMEN)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jp16dkpx5RM

>>23182090
kek, when most of the predictors are proven false, they usually rely on "well, he's actually here just invisibly". Gotta always avoid that falsifiability!

>>23182166
>actually here just invisibly

You're very confused, aren't you?

>>23182166
Jesus explicitly warns to not to try and "predict" when the apocalypse happens and the line about "the Son of Man coming in his glory" comes with the actual event (the Transfiguration) literally happening in the very next paragraph.

People who use that verse to call Jesus a failed prophet are willfully dishonest of both tradition and of the Bible itself.

>>23181702

Martin Luther was a heretic and there's a lot of history between Marcion and the prideful heretic who wanted to remove books from the new testament to fit his NEW & IMPROVED
version of the Church.

>>23180911
>accurate translations
They're Greek understanding is inaccurate
They confuse Greek grammar with English grammar. Horrible

>>23171162
Do you believe that Jews are part of the Synagogue of Satan?

>>23182803
*Their

>>23181676
They're cut from the same cloth
Cursed with a spirit of
NEW & IMPROVED
eg. The Goshen Fellowship

>>23171162
What is the point of all these huge lists of names in Genesis and what should the modern reader do with this information should you just skip these parts?

>>23171162
>Jehovah
>JHVH
>YHVH
Literally a false god. A Canaanite warrior turned into the "one true god" by kikes. And you fell for the meme of worshipping their false god, which is (((their))) whole intent. (((They))) want as many people as possible to worship their "god" because (((they))) are the synagogue of Satan. Jews deserve nothing less than total eradication.

>>23182938
Not only must you read all the names, but also the world's most boring travelogue in Numbers 33:
[5]: And the children of Israel removed from Rameses, and pitched in Succoth.
[6]: And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness.
[7]: And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pi-hahiroth, which is before Baal-zephon: and they pitched before Migdol.
[8]: And they departed from before Pi-hahiroth, and passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness, and went three days' journey in the wilderness of Etham, and pitched in Marah.
[9]: And they removed from Marah, and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water, and threescore and ten palm trees; and they pitched there.
[10]: And they removed from Elim, and encamped by the Red sea.
[11]: And they removed from the Red sea, and encamped in the wilderness of Sin.
[12]: And they took their journey out of the wilderness of Sin, and encamped in Dophkah.
[13]: And they departed from Dophkah, and encamped in Alush.
[14]: And they removed from Alush, and encamped at Rephidim, where was no water for the people to drink.
[15]: And they departed from Rephidim, and pitched in the wilderness of Sinai.
[16]: And they removed from the desert of Sinai, and pitched at Kibroth-hattaavah.
[17]: And they departed from Kibroth-hattaavah, and encamped at Hazeroth.
[18]: And they departed from Hazeroth, and pitched in Rithmah.
[19]: And they departed from Rithmah, and pitched at Rimmon-parez.
[20]: And they departed from Rimmon-parez, and pitched in Libnah.
[21]: And they removed from Libnah, and pitched at Rissah.
[22]: And they journeyed from Rissah, and pitched in Kehelathah.
[23]: And they went from Kehelathah, and pitched in mount Shapher.
[24]: And they removed from mount Shapher, and encamped in Haradah.
[25]: And they removed from Haradah, and pitched in Makheloth.
[26]: And they removed from Makheloth, and encamped at Tahath.
[27]: And they departed from Tahath, and pitched at Tarah.
[28]: And they removed from Tarah, and pitched in Mithcah.
[29]: And they went from Mithcah, and pitched in Hashmonah.
[30]: And they departed from Hashmonah, and encamped at Moseroth.
[31]: And they departed from Moseroth, and pitched in Bene-jaakan.
[32]: And they removed from Bene-jaakan, and encamped at Hor-hagidgad.
[33]: And they went from Hor-hagidgad, and pitched in Jotbathah.
[34]: And they removed from Jotbathah, and encamped at Ebronah.
[35]: And they departed from Ebronah, and encamped at Ezion-gaber.
[36]: And they removed from Ezion-gaber, and pitched in the wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh.
[37]: And they removed from Kadesh, and pitched in mount Hor, in the edge of the land of Edom.

>>23181556
>I feel most of your questions aren't asked in good faith
I assure you, they are. These are questions I came up with while trying to read the Bible.
>don't know who the Demiurge is
Essentially the Gnostic equivalent of the Devil. It's more complex than that, but for the purposes of this discussion, that definition should suffice.
>>23181700
>NWT says "all sorts of livestock", three other Bibles say "all the livestock"
Exodus 9.6 in the original Hebrew says "all the cattle of Egypt", and 9.19 says "gather thy cattle", according to https://www.biblehub.com/ . Seems like the NWT is an outlier.
>descends into analogy, not Biblical text, to explain why God could be jealous
Sorry, not buying it.
>Exodus 20.5
I still maintain that God choosing to punish children for the "sins of the father" is awful, and more something the Devil would do.
>>23181702
>Marcion of Sinope
I brought him up to point out that the original assembler of the Bible deliberately portrayed the Old Testament God as a Devil-like figure, and from what I've read of the Old Testament, that certainly seems to be true.
>gold/jewels for the tabernacle
OK, I see that Exodus 12.35-36 indicates the fleeing Hebrews plundered the Egyptians. Finally, an answer I can accept.

Before jumping into Leviticus, I have a few general questions.
1) According to the Documentary Hypothesis from the nineteenth century, the Pentateuch is composed of four main sources or documents that were edited or redacted together: J, E, P, and D. Each of these sources or documents is embedded in a (relatively) complete form in the current Pentateuch, and each has a distinct vocabulary and theological perspective. In addition, there are an unknown number of "redactors", and no record of what they took out. Given that...even if the Bible was once the word of God...on what basis do you believe that something as heavily edited/combined/etc. resembles the original word at all?
2) Doesn't it seem awfully convenient that the scrolls that formed Deuteronomy were "found" in a temple, and just happened to correspond with the "reforms" that King Josiah wanted to institute?
3) The story of Noah is not original; it's largely derived from the epic of Gilgamesh. Similarly, the book of Job originated in the Hindu Veda. And large portions of the supposed life of Jesus have their origins in the tale of the Egyptian god Horus, whose story predates Jesus by 1500 years. (Similar origin stories are claimed for Mercury (Roman), Dionysus (Greek), Krishna (Hindu), and Quetzalcoatl (Aztec), but Horus is the earliest such story I'm aware of). Are you comfortable with the plain evidence of the "God inspired" Bible just being a remix of existing stories?

>>23183320
It seems we're in opposite time zones heh. I'm about to go to sleep, but I can answer you Number 2 at least.
>Doesn't it seem awfully convenient that the scrolls that formed Deuteronomy were "found" in a temple, and just happened to correspond with the "reforms" that King Josiah wanted to institute?
It wasn't found in any temple, mind you. It was in the Temple of Solomon itself. It was THE place for worshipping Jehovah and had been mostly abandoned (for like the 4th time in its history). If there was a place where the rolls were to be found, it would be there. And the idea that it had been left there and no one knew of it wasn't so far fetched considering the size of Solomon's Temple. I can't remember the exact dimenions of it, but it wasn't small.
The fact that Deuteronomy coincides with what Josiah wanted to do simply shows that Josiah was a spiritual man who wanted to correct Israel's idolatry

>>23183466
Forgot to change my name

>>23182070
You need to be informed of the Biblical definitions of “god.” One meaning is nature or being, the other is worshipful.

Thus, true Christians worship the one true God the Creator. Other competing objects of worship are false gods.
But in terms of nature or being, there are many supernatural beings or gods.

>>23182803
Nope

>>23182807
Yes

do you have any real hobbies?

>>23183975
I've started watchting Patlabor

>>23184046
ok... based

>>23171162

>>23183466
So you simply accept the high degree of convenience. I guess you have to, to remain a believer. From my point of view, you're accepting highly unlikely nonsense to do so.

>>23180911
The word ,Devine, isn't in the Greek.

These translations created a daisy chain of the blind leading the blind? Overzealousness for the NEW & IMPROVED led them into sloppy
scholarship. Much like Martin Luther and his campaign to have books removed from the New Testament.
>>23181088
>>23181091