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23208776 No.23208776 [Reply] [Original]

The self-help author Jordan Baruch Peterson says no one knows if the Nazis were right wing or left wing. Any books to settle this matter once and for all?
https://twitter.com/C_Kavanagh/status/1770981199646970302

>> No.23208786
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23208786

National Socialism was the dialectical synthesis of both the socialist-democratic-liberal and aristocratic principles of modern European civilization. It was a "third position" beyond both laissez-faire capitalism (the merely negative side of the first dialectical moment) and mere conservatism and authoritarianism (the merely negative side of the second). It was "organic," "integral," the coincidentia oppositorum, the completion of Marx's and Mill's dream at a higher level than either was capable of dreaming, a true Platonic Republic.

Some classics on National Socialism:
>George Mosse, The Crisis of German Ideology
Good overview of volkisch thought in Germany
>Jeffrey Herf, Reactionary Modernism
Another good overview that will introduce you to many important themes and names, and not too long.
>Armin Mohler, The Conservative Revolution in Germany
Classic overview of the wider milieu of which National Socialism was just one part. The only English translation is poor, so try to get it in German or another language instead. It's not as long as the later German editions look, as much of the later editions are bibliography. The original study is fairly short.
>Thomas Rohkramer, A Single Communal Faith?
An extremely good synthesis of what exactly National Socialism "was" as a historical phenomenon.
>Thomas Rohkramer, The Fatal Attraction of National Socialism
Only in German but one of the most important books ever written on why normal people actually went along with the regime and how they saw it. Pic related.
>Charles Bambach, Heidegger's Roots
If you are at least somewhat familiar with Heidegger's philosophy, this will help explain what Heidegger saw in Nazism, and by extension, what other philosophers and intellectuals saw in it.
>Anna Bramwell, Blood and Soil: Richard Walther Darré and Hitler's "Green Party"
Good and sometimes criticized overview of Nazi ecology. Another good (and much shorter) book like this is "How Green Were the Nazis?"

Primary sources that may be helpful in understanding why people found National Socialism attractive
>Werner Sombart, Deutscher Sozialismus
The English translation is just barely serviceable and doesn't do the work of translating German idiom to English idiom, so it reads awkwardly and loses much of its force. If you read it in English, try to remember this.
>Oswald Spengler, Prussian Socialism
Another classic statement of the need for an "organic" volkisch socialism that isn't mechanistically reductive or atomistically individualist like French and English socialisms.
>Othmar Spann, The True State
Recently translated by Ellery Edwards. Similar to above, but from a Catholic corporatist angle.
>Fichte, Addresses to the German Nation
Very important text for the history of national socialisms of all kinds.
>Fichte, The Closed Commercial State
More challenging. Only read this if you're really interested in national-socialist socio-economic theory, things like Friedrich List and Johann Rodbertus.

>> No.23208788

>>23208776
>right wing
>left wing
False dichotomy

>> No.23208791
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23208791

>>23208786
Other studies worth reading
>A. James Gregor, The Ideology of Fascism
A very good overview of Italian fascism that debunks many myths about it and idiotic interpretations of it.
>Zeev Sternhell, The Birth of Fascist Ideology
A classic and still probably the single best, overall interpretation of Italian fascism and French third positionism.
>Zeev Sternhell, Neither Right nor Left
More in-depth on the French setting. Alain de Benoist has a good book on French on Berth if you end up being interested in the French angle, and Eugen Weber has a good study of Action Francaise.
>Nicholas Nagy-Talavera, The Green Shirts and Others
Best overview of Codreanu's Legion.
>Stanley Payne, Falange
Best overview of Falange, which is in the same tradition as French third positionism as described by Sternhell.

Other general works on fascism that are useful to consult
>Ernst Nolte, Three Faces of Fascism
Still a great work even if Nolte's ultimate thesis is criticized.
>Roger Griffin, The Idea of Fascism
Griffin's interpretation of fascism as a form of modernism with its own internal logic is now dominant in fascist studies. This is his landmark study.
>Roger Griffin, Fascism and Modernism
This is Griffin's final authoritative statement on his synthetic interpretation of fascism. It's hard to read and I wouldn't read it first if I were you.
>Stanley Payne, A History of Fascism 1914-1945
Just a good overview.

More primary sources that can shed light on the national socialist worldview in parallel or as precursors:
>Corneliu Zelea Codreanu, For my Legionaries
>José Antonio Primo de Rivera, Anthology of Speeches and Quotes
>Ernst von Salomon, anything (Outlaws, Fragebogen)
>Alain de Benoist, Vu de droite
>Georges Sorel, Reflections on Violence
>Joseph de Maistre, Considerations on France
>Thomas Mann, Reflections/Observations of an Unpolitical Man (Betrachtungen Eines Unpolitischen)
>Hermann Löns, The Warwolf (Der Wehrwolf)

>> No.23208793
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23208793

>Codreanu’s most effective propaganda in these years was to be work, action, and [leading by] example. Hundreds of voluntary labor camps of the Legion, then called the TPT Party, dotted the map of Romania, repairing village bridges, roads, and churches, building dams, digging wells and working “for the collective and national solidarity.” In these camps, the boyar son worked side by side with the son of the laborer and the peasant, creating a powerful feeling of national unity and renovation. If the new intellectuals who graduated (or failed to graduate) in increasing numbers from the universities and joined the ranks of the Legion were strongly anti-Semitic because of the Jewish middle classes blocking their way, the lower classes came to the Legion because they hoped to fulfill their desires for a social justice on a national rather than a Russian Bolshevik platform.

>As the Legion increased in importance, it had to take a certain number of stands on practical issues of the day despite its acute revulsion to dealing with the problems of the sordid twentieth-century industrial age. These stands and attitudes were taken on an ad hoc basis when the Legion had to face them, and the result was a curious mixture of their ideology and more realistic considerations. Although it concentrated its activities in the villages, the Legion formed the Corps of Legionary Workers in 1936 and in addition to the dozens of labor camps, Codreanu ordered the Legion to enter a very new field for Romanians, commerce. He wanted to prove that not only Jews could be successful in this area. "In less than a year, the Battalion of Legionary Commerce founded a chain of Legionary restaurants, groceries, and repair shops covering Bucharest and the provincial towns. The income from these establishments financed vacations for underprivileged children and provided funds for the movement.” Besides the commercial establishments, there was a Legionary welfare organization, and steps were taken to organize Legionary cooperatives. At the opening of the Legionary sanatorium in Predeal, different payment rates were established. Everybody was to pay according to his conscience; the poor were not to pay at all.

>> No.23208795
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23208795

In this context the Hitler Youth generation also argued that there had been
a stronger 'social side' to National Socialism than later generations
and most outsiders have been willing to acknowledge. Such things as
the training competitions, for example, the fact that there were no
school fees for the poor, the introduction of coeducation, com-
petitions for the most social factory or more generally working for
'the community' were cited as examples.

Most had formed, as we
have seen, their own complex picture of positive and negative
experiences and were now outraged by the blank negative judge-
ment being cast on the Third Reich. Even those who had never
regarded themselves as Nazis found that it was no longer permissible
to mention even the 'positive things' about the Third Reich without
being treated as such.

In fact, the legacy of the HJ experience was ambiguous. On the
one hand, the HJ had encouraged many members and particularly
those who had taken on significant responsibilities within the move-
ment, to be very active. It had conveyed the powerful experience
that for those willing to put in the effort to the collective, the reward
could be considerable personal advancement. The dissolution of the
HJ consequently left a vacuum in the post-war period that cried out
to be filled with new activity ...

The resulting ambivalent outlook was probably extremely significant
in explaining the particular pattern of behaviour which emerged in
both Germanies after the war. Both societies seem to have been
characterised by a willingness to put in enormous effort in return for
recognition and personal advancement.
...

The lesson the HJ generation drew from
the past, then, was Pflichtbewusstsein, a willingness to do one's duty, or
better Leistungsbereitschaft, a willingness to give it everything one
had, largely irrespective of whatever state form or political system
happened to be in operation at the time.

>> No.23208797
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23208797

>>23208795
Perhaps the most important positive experience was the fact that
socially, too, the HJ and other institutions helped youngsters dis-
cover new territory. Because the HJ aspired to bridge class barriers,
many of its members were able to meet youngsters or adults from
different backgrounds and thus break out of their own milieus.
Ambitious HJ members could rise up through the ranks. Sometimes
working-class children found themselves in authority over young-
sters with a grammar-school background. Those who performed
well in the HJ might well also find their social mobility enhanced
outside the organisation. A good HJ record could open up oppor-
tunities for youngsters whose parents' social status would in the past
have denied them much chance of advancement. For example,
successful HJ members might be able to get into one of the National
Socialist political academies or into a better school; they might be
able to obtain an apprenticeship in a sought after occupation or gain
entry into a white-collar profession. For many youngsters, the old
adage from the working-class milieu of the 1920s 'them up on top, us
down below', no longer seemed to fit.

The HJ also encouraged youngsters to take on positions of leader-
ship and responsibility. At some time or other almost all boys and
girls took on some office or higher rank, be it in the DJ or the HJ.
Those who joined the Jungvolk as 1 o-year-olds, for example, moved
in only their second year into positions of seniority over the new
entrants. Thus the old youth movement principle that 'youth should
be led by youth' became a reality for many young people. Those
promoted received new badges and insignia as marks of their auth-
ority. The chevrons and frogging were highly important for the
self-esteem of those involved, And, again, outside the HJ, too, the
uniform or the higher rank brought recognition. Many of our
interview partners mentioned the fact that when you wore the
uniform you 'were somebody' and could not just be dismissed as a
child.

Many of the respondents - and not just the enthusiasts - dwelt on
the fact that they had been involved in useful and socially meaning-
ful activity. They helped on farms or in land reclamation or col-
lected metal for recycling; they looked after elderly members of the
community, collected for the Nazis' 'winter help scheme', knitted for
the poor or sent parcels to soldiers at the front. Because of the
blanket condemnation of the HJ in the post-war period, our inter-
viewees were at pains to emphasise this positive useful side.
Respondents of both sexes believed that their HJ activities had been
a lot more worthwhile than the activities of modern youth who 'just
hang around outside discos' and did nothing useful.

>Alexander von Plato, "The Hitler Youth generation and its roles in the two postwar German states," in Mark Roseman, ed., Generations in Conflict: Youth Revolt and Generation Formation in Germany, 1770-1968 (Cambridge, England, 1995)

>> No.23208798
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23208798

>Prof. A. J. P. Taylor, the eminent British historian, and hardly a Nazi sympathizer, writes:

>"Fascism, it was claimed, represented the last aggressive stage of capitalism in decline, and its momentum could be sustained only by war. There was an element of truth in this, but not much. The full employment which Nazi Germany was the first European country to possess, depended in large part on the production of armaments; but it could have been provided equally well (and was to some extent) by other forms of public works from roads to great buildings. The Nazi secret was not armament production; it was freedom from the then orthodox principles of economics . . . the argument for war did not work even if the Nazi system had relied on armaments production alone. Nazi Germany was not choking in a flood of arms. On the contrary, the German Generals insists unanimously in 1939 that they were not equipped for war and that many years must pass before “rearmament in depth” had been completed."

>Answering predictions of ruin by orthodox economists throughout the world, Hitler explained that Germany had not withdrawn from world trade but had bypassed the international financial system by means of barter, stating:

>"If certain countries combat the German system this is done in the first instance because through the German method of trading their tricks of international currency and Bourse speculations have been abolished in favor of honest business transactions. . . . We are buyers of good foodstuff and raw materials and suppliers of equally good commodities!"

>More recently a professional economist, Henry C K Liu[18], who can hardly be suspected of Hitlerism, analyzed the methods by which Germany emerged from the Depression:

>"The Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933, at a time when its economy was in total collapse, with ruinous war-reparation obligations and zero prospects for foreign investment or credit. Yet through an independent monetary policy of sovereign credit and a full-employment public-works program, the Third Reich was able to turn a bankrupt Germany, stripped of overseas colonies it could exploit, into the strongest economy in Europe within four years, even before armament spending began. In fact, German economic recovery preceded and later enabled German rearmament, in contrast to the US economy, where constitutional roadblocks placed by the US Supreme Court on the New Deal delayed economic recovery until US entry to World War II put the US market economy on a war footing. While this observation is not an endorsement for Nazi philosophy, the effectiveness of German economic policy in this period, some of which had been started during the last phase of the Weimar Republic, is undeniable."
https://counter-currents.com/2011/08/breaking-the-bondage-of-interesta-right-answer-to-usury-part-4/
https://counter-currents.com/2012/11/two-volumes-by-gottfried-feder/

>> No.23208843

nice line breaks bro

>> No.23208877
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23208877

>>23208776

>> No.23208886

>>23208776
Kek is he turning into the MC from The Tunnel? Trying to make an 'objective' history of the nazis and going crazy?

>> No.23208887

A more interesting question is what the "left wing" and "right wing" even are, and if anyone really knows at this point.
People know what they think those things are, or what they feel they are at least, but that usually has little to do with reality.

So much of culture is just people pointing to symbols that they don't understand the meaning of. Everything is like this.

>> No.23208898

Left wing
Right wing
Chicken wing

>> No.23208901

>>23208776
Socialism is left wing.

Just because they're nationalists rather than globalists about it doesn't mean they're right wing. Socialist parasites will tell you far-left is communism (socialism) and far right is nazism (socialism), but they do that to promote their state-worshipping ideology where they fantasize about stealing from those they covet via the state.

Socialism is rooted in covetousness and theft. It's unlawful. They all covet what certain other groups have and want to steal from them via the state, sometimes going even further to torture/murder them.

>> No.23208902

>>23208898
don't make me hungry during ramadan

>> No.23208906

>>23208786
>>23208791
saved, thanks anon

>> No.23208913

THERE IS NO RIGHT WING IN A DEMOCRACY

>> No.23208921

>>23208902
>ramadan
It's not really fasting when you just have a feast once the sun goes down.

>> No.23208980
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23208980

>>23208776
lmao

>> No.23209002
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23209002

>>23208776
I liked Stanley Payne's "A History of Fascism." It's reasonably objective as far as these books go, and I think the best way to understand it is through its actual history. But I've come to conclude that fascism is by its nature an incoherent, malleable thing and fascist ideologues tried to avoid being pinned down on who they were and what they wanted to do as much as possible because that would only slow them down or force them to commit to a particular course of action, rather than being as improvisational as the speed of the human nervous system allowed. The point was to be unstoppable. To always be "rising." You'll win so much you'll get sick of winning.

Fascism was also committed to making politics into a spectacle and dazzling people like a big-budget entertainment blockbuster. But fundamentally, fascism existed as a dark bastard or shadow of the competing ideologies of the 20th century and modernity and the whole post-French Revolution era as if it was all poured into a blender, like a reactive embrace of the abyss in response to them -- the Jekyll to the Hyde of the Enlightenment.

>> No.23209011
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23209011

>fascism was just capitalism in decay!

>> No.23209013

Or maybe the Mr. Hyde to the Dr. Jekyll. I've mixed up my literary metaphors.

>> No.23209032

>>23209011
R. Palme Dutt is the most overrated of the Marxist theorists writing about fascism at the time (in 1920s) and that came out during a time when the Soviet line was that fascism and social democracy were basically the same thing, and they changed that pretty quick. I see Dutt being referenced frequently by very online tankies though which is rather sad.

>> No.23209068

>>23208776
Destiny is CUTE!

>> No.23209079

>>23209068
he looks like a dwarf

>> No.23209591

>>23209011
WHat book is this

>> No.23210193

>>23208776
Kek I saw him say that. It's unbelievable he's so stupid.

>> No.23210289

>>23208786
Why do you not mention Gottfried Feder, Mein Kampf, or any other books by major national socialist figures? It's not like they were coy about laying out their political philosophy.

>> No.23210291

>>23208843

>> No.23210296

>>23208843
>>23210291
??

>> No.23210299
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23210299

>>23208776
A book that outlines the nexus that National-Socialism was built around, the abolishing of unearned income through usury and the continued devaluation of ones labor through inflation. It also argues for the rejection of all international financial systems (except trade) with particular focus on complete control and discretion of one's own monetary police. Which in turn prevents manipulation by special interests.

1/?

>> No.23210301

>>23210296
see:
>>23208795
>>23208797

>> No.23210309
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23210309

>>23210299
One of my favorite books that outlines a means to create a large group of families to be selected for high leadership in a future National-Socialist State. All families were to be rooted to the ground with ample space and farm land and be required to produce large families from which prospective leaders will be groomed from. A system predicated on beauty, excellence, ability, intelligence and athleticism. One that explains, in great detail, of the importance of connecting people firmly with the soil and the need for families, of all abilities, to be secure and firm in their home.

2/?

>> No.23210323
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23210323

>>23210309
A very easy and straight forward read in the first half which clearly outlines the National-Socialist world-view on a dozen different topics. It begins with their reason for forming, covers their most important areas of concern (Citizenship, the disastrous economy, Socialism and more). Much of what they campaign for makes a great deal of sense and would be readily accepted by vast swathes of people, as it was done when it was written. The last quarter delves deeply in to the Financial system and global finances. Here, without a keen interest or understanding, it becomes reasonably difficult to keep up with, however there are parts which are clearly understandable by any working man today.

3/?

>> No.23210345
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23210345

>>23210323
The Classic. An easy to read book split in to two clear parts. The first a simple and honest portrayal of a man who goes to one of the most beautiful places the world has ever known, only to have the image of it ruined by what he finds there. It goes to his life in the army, his downtime and what he sees plaguing his beloved people. It is the life-story of a man who becomes so driven that he changes the course of history. The second half covers several points of his world-view on what he will do upon release from prison, how he will accomplish it and what he will need to do so. It is not badly written, nor is it a mess of a book. It is a simple, easily read memoir of a man who would do exactly what he said in this book. Again, as applicable now as it was then. A favorite part of mine is his fondness for his Stormtroopers and the many paragraphs he writes of their virtues and strength.

>> No.23210361

>>23208776
the nazis weren't ideological, they were attracted to aesthetics and power.

>> No.23210365
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23210365

>>23210345
A concise and unbiased look back on what the National-Socialists did to gain such incredible support of the population. While it does not explain their reasoning in detail it does explain what they did and what the results were for the German people. It also highlights and puts in to the correct context the awful conditions forced upon Germany after the war and what the effects were. A must read for anybody interested in National-Socialist Germany.

>> No.23210369
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23210369

Why does he have a Matthew Lesko coat now? Is he going to help me rescue my father from the belly of the IRS and get free chaos in my pocket?

>> No.23210390
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23210390

>>23210365

The opening argument for the moral and legal root of the Führerprinzip and the National-Socialist means of organizing leadership. Not nearly as hard of a read that I thought it would be. At it's core it is a good justification for action over rumination. This may arguably one of the easier books for Schmitt when compared to the Crisis or Dictatorship. However, both those later books are well worth a read, each covering in greater detail an aspect that mentioned in this. It will never not be funny that fully the first quarter of many of his books is nothing more than warnings from modern translators against his known associations and his support for the most detestable regime imaginable.

>> No.23210398
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23210398

>>23210390
A surprise one for many. A modern book from 2014 that looks back and tries to rational explain why people did what they did. The easily-read author unintentionally ends up being quite the cheerleader for the National-Socialists. Perhaps when it was written it was not thought that such a thing could return, but now as we rapidly collect the provisions that allowed the National-Socialists to arise in Germany, we see within this very book many of the arguments they used make sense once again. Despite the authors attempts to depict them honestly (albeit negatively) it does a wonderful job of placing you there, amongst the grit of what the above average German might experience. Despite the occasional long-winded sentence condemning everything, a good read.

>> No.23210412
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23210412

>>23210398
A short book that covers everything that could be said to make a great man written by an SS Man who volunteered to fight on the East Front. Strength, honor, beauty, love and more are covered in its pages. It draws from many sources and combines them in to a coherent and vitalistic world-view that actively makes one wish to engage the world with chest out and shoulders back. It is broken down in to short chapters for ease of reading.

>> No.23210434
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23210434

>>23210412
>>23210398
Honorable Mentions
>Myth of the 20th Century
A romantic book that envisions the most profound spiritual connection between race, virtues, beauty, aesthetics and health.

>A History Of Central Banking
Another modern book that argues against usury and global financial systems. Pointing out many strange 'coincidences' that allowed the system we currently suffer under to grow. Nothing that Gottfried Feder did not cover, but an easier, shorter read.

>The Program of the Party of Hitler
Quite simple really.

I hope all these help

>>23208786
>>23208791
I have read several of these that you mention and very few provide anything of value or indeed truth on the matter of National-Socialism. Specifically the inclusion of the authors Griffin and Sternhell is quite egregious. Many of the others, while good, are of absolutely no value in learning about National-Socialism, here I bring attention to Spengler and von Salomon. I am very surprised you did not include Ernst Junger here too, while these are great, they will impart nothing on the subject OP asked for and simply burn out his enthusiasm on red herrings and wild goose chases. Which I suspect is the point of your rather odd list which includes not one single works written by a National-Socialist.

>> No.23210521

>>23208788
This. Why does it even matter if the Nazis were left wing or right wing?

>> No.23210527

I’m Jewish. AMA.

>> No.23210537

>>23210527
What do you think of OP's topic?

>> No.23210585

>>23208877
I don't mind if someone is left wing or right wing, socialist or reactionary, as long as that hate niggers like me. First principles are important.

>> No.23210785

>>23208786
Came here to post this. Cheers fellow 3P.

>> No.23210899

>>23208776
It’s too bad there are only two positions and not a third position we could group fascism under. We could call it “tertiary opinions” or something.

>> No.23210903

>>23210527
Is it true you poison wells?

>> No.23210919
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23210919

>>23210299
>>23210309
>>23210323
>>23210345
>>23210365
>>23210390
>>23210398
>>23210412
>>23210434
Thoroughly, incomparably based. Excuse my mass replying.