/lit/ - Literature

Do we really need to talk about this every fucking day?

>>2779149
Sorry. I'm new to /lit/. Good to know it's discussed here regularly.

Schopenhauer was bitter and lonely. He felt socially isolated and thus rejected. His philosophy is not a statement of objective fact but rather a rationalization of his own circumstances, essentially a sophisticated embellishment of preemptive rejection, i.e., "Everyone's stupid but me." More brilliance available at: www.wowberries.blogspot.com

Happy Illusory Freedom Day!

give me quotes on those 4 things please


from schopy obviously

>>2779156
Okay, but that still doesn't disprove any of his statements. It's just attacking him personally. Even if you are correct, the fact that humans have the potential for such negative emotions kind of proves his points.

>>2779162
Here's a really short audiobook if you want to learn more: http://librivox.org/studies-in-pessimism-by-arthur-schopenhauer/ I'm to lazy to search the pdf for direct quotes on all 3 points, but here's one quote from this book:

>Certain it is that work, worry, labor and trouble, form the lot of almost all men their whole life long. But if all wishes were fulfilled as soon as they arose, how would men occupy their lives? what would they do with their time? If the world were a paradise of luxury and ease, a land flowing with milk and honey, where every Jack obtained his Jill at once and without any difficulty, men would either die of boredom or hang themselves; or there would be wars, massacres, and murders; so that in the end mankind would inflict more suffering on itself than it has now to accept at the hands of Nature.

>>2779149
We rarely discuss Schop-dog exclusively; he's just named dropped along with Kant and Kierkgaard to embellish arguments.

As for the topic at hand, I have not read enough of his work to make any insightful comments, but from what I have read, our world-views seems fairly compatible.

I think that as different thinkers get to different conclusions, sometimes they get to the same conclusions but take different stances on it. That is emotional and personal.

So, say, "life is meaningless" can be liberating or terrifying. The part in which emotion comes in to the philosopher, I'm out. Not because I don't get sad about it or something, but because my reaction to these conclusions will always be my reactions.

>>2779173

Arbitrary occupancy of a negative state doesn't prove the truth of his philosophy. Truth is defined by its universal application. This is the difference between information and knowledge. Information is local and transitory, knowledge is absolute and timeless. Boom! +1 for WowBerries

Well this was short-lived and uninteresting. Well done, OP.

>>2779156

You don't understand him at all. His philosophy does not make him out to be smarter or better than everyone else. (Through comments claiming this are found throughout his work, they are not a part of the arguments in the work.) His argument is that everyone's actions are determined by the purveying Will, and that the only escape from the willing aspect of Will was detached aesthetic contemplation, which only made man free for a brief moment before he falls back into willing. In this naturalistic account of man, he anticipates Darwin by 40 years and lays the foundation for Nietzsche's brand of existentialism.

Now ignoring that you've failed to understand Schopenhauer's project, you cannot discredit his insight by saying that his work is an expression of his character. Not a single philosopher has ever created a work which is not influenced by his own character. That Schopenhauer was an outsider only allowed him insight into an aspect of life that neither Kant nor Hegel had any access to.

>>2779140
I rarely truly agree with the man, but I love both his thought, life and character. He's like that grumpy old uncle you wished you had.

He's one of those philosophers who's work you can read merely for the pleasure of it, if you were so inclined.

>>2779249

I understand him and you do not. You are relaying the most superficial interpretation of his work and rudely projecting your limitations on to me, confusing your own misunderstanding with one you wish to be mine. It is pervasively implied throughout his work that he views himself as smarter than everyone else. He alludes to not only discussion but DEFINITION of genius, which is obviously only truly definable by those who occupy such a cognitively elevated realm. Furthermore, his definition of aesthetics is completely diluted by his psychology as he discusses the "independence of objects," which to those of us with true intelligence is an obvious if not unwitting metaphor for his loneliness. The brief escape he refers to reflects his own limitations as an unhappy, bitter man. As you say, he looks at the world from the outside, utterly disconnected, and thus: is unable to make a substantive connection to anything, and thus, extract any truth and relevant meaning. His psychology is highly affected and skewed from that which is necessary for objective truth. He is a waste of time. (But good job parroting what your professor told you.)

>>2779173

But this quote is utter bullshit. If all our basic needs were satisfied we would finally be able to create music as good as Mozart. And in great numbers as well.
Schopenhauer is a huge faggot it seems.

>>2779273
3/10

>>2779278
you're an idiot. people make music and get involved creatively but that's part of the work, fulfilling that inspiration is the task that remains insatiable.

>>2779273
>His psychology is highly affected and skewed from that which is necessary for objective truth. He is a waste of time. (But good job parroting what your professor told you.)

/lit/ in a nutshell

>>2779287

Ah yes, when all else fails, when one recognizes his own inability to articulate with weight, he gives himself over to the 4chan convention of numerical grading, implicitly locating himself in the position of evaluator by the authority of no one but his own fanciful imagination. Brilliant work, you unadventurous lemming. Now go watch MTV and attend to your Bieber haircut.

P.S. You never had a chance.

>>2779295

Well I for one love working. Perhaps Schopenhauer was just a lazy faggot?

>>2779298
>objective truth


>>>/sci/

>>2779301
That quote was very much in favour of work. Can you read?

>>2779300
>when one
>he gives himself over
>implicitly locating himself


You think you're writing a book or article right now, don't you?

>His argument is that everyone's actions are determined by the purveying Will, and that the only escape from the willing aspect of Will was detached aesthetic contemplation, which only made man free for a brief moment before he falls back into willing.

Cool. So this is the TL;DR verson of the The Will as Representation? I haven't read it btw.

>In this naturalistic account of man, he anticipates Darwin by 40 years and lays the foundation for Nietzsche's brand of existentialism.

How does he anticiple Darwin? I kind of understand the second part about Nietzsche, but if you'd care to elaborate that'd be nice.

>>2779174

Thanks for the info.

>>2779308

Yes but at the same time he juxtaposed it with suffering.
I don't suffer whan I work.
Can you comprehend, create and think?

>>2779273

His discussions of genius have very little to do with the modern conception of the genius as someone who is merely smart. Genius to Schopenhauer is a man who is capable of supreme novelty in thought or in art, in that they create something which lesser men lack the capacity even to identify. He uses the metaphor of which portrays a genius as a marksman capable of hitting a target that others, not even the most skilled, can even SEE.

There is no doubt that there was genius behind his work. Where Kant and Hegel were making room for faith, paying compliments to the state, and having pretensions to scientificity, Schopenhauer presents a staunch atheistic account that predicts scientific advances made 40 years after he thought them up. Through his disagreeably character played a role in him being ignored during his lifetime, the strangeness and genius of his thought also played a role.

As for his discussion of objects: His transcendental idealism is less a matter of his psychology and more a matter of his historicity, as he writes primarily in reaction to Kant. The other Kantians surely couldn't be leveled by your claim as the great many of them were not isolated consciousnesses.

This of course has nothing to do with this thread, as it is a discussion of his pessimism, which has nothing to do with genius and everything to do with Will.

>>2779341
he said it was the lesser of two sufferings so a comparatively better scenario, you stupid prick.

>>2779347

TL;DR, no interest in someone who mimics his professor's cursory lessons in an attempt to appear knowledgeable and delude himself as being of intellectual stature. You have no unique insight, and you know it. Thanks for posing.

>>2779349

Lel. Besides, if all needs were satisfied immediatly what would be the purpose of war?

>>2779347
>it is a discussion of his pessimism, which has nothing to do with genius and everything to do with Will.

How is pessimism related with Will?

>>2779358
1/10

>>2779359
people still hate each other even when they all have sufficient resources.

>>2779375

Another brilliant self-appointed evaluator offering tacit concession with a last impotent attempt at disparaging wit. Bravo to you who are dumb enough to go unembarrassed by your lack of creativity.

>>2779377

Read it again: If all needs were satisfied.
The whole idea behind the philosophy of Schopenhauer is that the will is based on the satisfaction of needs. Actually, you are unable to act were it not for the needs in you that wanted to be satisfied.

>>2779384
Trying too hard.
btw, your flowery language still sounds mad

>>2779392

Projecting your little mind's limitations onto me, mistaking natural stream of consciousness with effort, and optimistically fantasizing that you have affected me in such a way as to elicit anger. I wonder if you are aware of how average you are, or if this exchange is part of a prolonged string of delusions where you try to reify the fantasy identity you so obviously wish for--you know, one of capacity and purpose.

>>2779403
mad/10

>>2779403
Why do you assume there are only two people on /lit/, yourself included?

Also, this is retarded:
> Bravo to you who are dumb

>>2779328
>How does he anticipate Darwin?

He conceives of the will to life as the fundamental motive of action in both man and animal, thusly placing man with the animals and specifically addresses the competition between willing creatures as the cause of society and much strife within society.

>>2779367

IIRC Schopenhauer never states that life is meaningless, only that man is a slave to the Will and that he shuns the idea of an afterlife. This is pessimistic in contrast the "Christian" idea that man holds unique status above the animals in his free will and his potential to receive eternal salvation.

>>2779403

>I wonder if you are aware of how average you are

What's wrong with being average?

>>2779403
Describing language as verbose isn't to say that it's incomprehensible.

>>2779413

>>2779403
>"Everyone's stupid but me."

>>2779409

You're pretty entertaining in your perseverance. Even though you lack any appreciable cognitive faculties, you persist--chopping a tree with a toothpick. This is a function of your insecurity. I imagine you are the sort that requires the last word as you view it tantamount to victory. That's fine. I don't feel threatened by you in the least, so I'll move on. My only wish though is that you... no, I wish for you that you develop yourself in the future because it makes me sad to see such incompetence. This is WowBerries, signing off ^_^

>>2779389
>>2779389
>>2779389
>>2779389
>>2779389
>>2779389
>>2779389

Fucking this. This is the greatest inconsistency of Schopenhauer.

WowBerries was bitter and lonely. He felt socially isolated and thus rejected. His posts are not a statement of objective fact but rather a expression of his own circumstances, essentially a sophisticated embellishment of preemptive rejection, i.e., "Everyone's stupid but me." More brilliance available at: >>2779140

Happy Illusory Freedom Day!

>>2779411

Interesting. Thank you.

>>2779421
smilies are a poor cover up for madness

So what would a life that wasn't meaningless look like? Is the existence of the afterlife or God the only thing that could give life meaning?

>>2779424
He wasn't talking about Will being alleviated in that quote.

Also,
>>2779389
>>2779424
Probably the most pathetic example of samefag I've seen

>>2779438
>So what would a life that wasn't meaningless look like?

life

>Is the existence of the afterlife or God the only thing that could give life meaning?

no

>>2779438
>Is the existence of the afterlife or God the only thing that could give life meaning?
Yes, because it's the only thing defined as such though there has never been an explanation for what makes it meaningful. it's kind of axiomatic.

>>2779438
I dunno. If something will never exist, I'm not sure one can know what it will look like.

>>2779438
Thetans

>>2779453
>implying life is meaningful without God

>>2779140
It's been a while since I've read Soapy. I like much of his pessimism, and his discussion of will. I don't like his negation of life and its pleasures or his bitter Western Buddhism. Nietzsche's life-affirmation in The Will to Power is my favorite response to Soapy and his ken:

>If we affirm one moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event - and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed.

>>2779438
>Is the existence of the afterlife or God the only thing that could give life meaning?

I dunno. Even if those existed, life would still be meaningless imo.

>>2779482
Exclusively? Are you sure you're in a position to say that?

>>2779468
>implying that meaning isn't essentially a phenomena experienced in life

>>2779469

>If we affirm one moment, we thus affirm not only ourselves but all existence. For nothing is self-sufficient, neither in us ourselves nor in things; and if our soul has trembled with happiness and sounded like a harp string just once, all eternity was needed to produce this one event - and in this single moment of affirmation all eternity was called good, redeemed, justified, and affirmed.

meh, sounds a too dramatic imo. Like, so what if I have a laugh now and then? I still have a bunch of other shit to worry about (my future, work, career, survival, not getting killed, etc.). So just because I have a laugh now and then, doesn't justify shit.

>>2779484

I'm in a position to say that it is meaningless to speak of it otherwise, whether that the knowledge is beyond human comprehension or that the sentiment is nonsensical is not something i care to address.

Meaning is found in life.

>>2779488
It's Nietzsche. Of course it's dramatic. If you weren't alive, there would be no chance to have a single moment of happiness or fulfillment. If you don't think the dregs of life are worth that, why haven't you killed yourself?

You would be well within your rights to. The right to end one's life is as important to one's freedom as the right to live it.

>>2779492
>Meaning is found in life.

How do you know it's meaning?

>>2779507

because its meaningful

>>2779499
>It's Nietzsche. Of course it's dramatic.

Good thing I haven't read his shit.

>If you weren't alive, there would be no chance to have a single moment of happiness or fulfillment.

So what? I don't give a shit. I'd rather not have to worry about the countless other things that stress me out during the day.

>If you don't think the dregs of life are worth that, why haven't you killed yourself?

I dunno. Because I'm not 2 years old? I'm just one person in the billions, perhaps trillions of human that have walked this earth. It doesn't matter if I live or die. And it's stupid to think that if I was gone anyone would give a shit, let alone me.

>You would be well within your rights to.

No. That shit's illegal in most of the world. I don't know the exact percentage, but ~20% or more of attempted suicides end up failing. So they end up mutilated or worse. Fuck that shit. This is what keeps many people from doing it believe it or not. There is no pic related.

>The right to end one's life is as important to one's freedom as the right to live it.

But no one chooses to be born. Does each one of my semen have a right to life?

>>2779527
*forgot trip

>>2779527
Holy fuck. I uploaded that exact image to the Futurama Wikia in 2007, back when I was employed by Wikia.

Glad you found a use for it. Always good to see people using my various contributions to the Internet.

>>2779527
>It doesn't matter if I live or die.
It matters to you. Even if you don't care.
>No. That shit's illegal in most of the world.
Legal status doesn't determine rights of self-ownership.
>but ~20% or more of attempted suicides end up failing.
Try harder. Many attempted suicides are purposefully incomplete. Many are spur of the moment. If you really want to, you aren't going to half-ass killing yourself.
>Does each one of my semen have a right to life?
Semen is a fluid. Do you mean sperm? Sperm have no sense of self. They are not viable in any sense as people. They don't even have a diploid genome.

But I can tell you have no self-worth because you've inflated your perspective far beyond yourself, and you're lashing out in bitterness because of it. Why are you contemplating your own value on a cosmic and global scale? Of course you won't matter then. You don't live on that scale.

>>2779555

>It matters to you. Even if you don't care.

If I don't care, how would it matter to me?

>Legal status doesn't determine rights of self-ownership.

Care to elaborate?

>Try harder. Many attempted suicides are purposefully incomplete.

Have you read the minds of every person attempting suicide?

>Many are spur of the moment. If you really want to, you aren't going to half-ass killing yourself.

But men aren't machines. They are not perfect. Accidents do happen. People make mistakes all the fucking time, even with perfect planning. This fear of uncertainty keeps people from doing it too. And even if there was perfect certainty, what would be the point? 1 less person out of billions, makes no fucking difference. It'd be like killing a random ant. It's just one less, 1,000 other will soon take its place.

>Semen is a fluid. Do you mean sperm? Sperm have no sense of self. They are not viable in any sense as people. They don't even have a diploid genome.

So when does this "right to life" that you talk about begin?

>But I can tell you have no self-worth

Thank you Dr. Freud.

>you've inflated your perspective far beyond yourself

Can you elaborate?

>you're lashing out in bitterness because of it.

Which of my comments were bitter?

>Why are you contemplating your own value on a cosmic and global scale? Of course you won't matter then. You don't live on that scale.

I dunno. I guess I'm a deep thinker? The whole 9-5 for 40-50 years, routine just seems meaningless at this point.

>>2779492
Good job fooling yourself, have some dubs, I insist.

>>2779589
Grow up.

>>2779596

You're the fool because you cannot see it.

>>2779618
You seem man, have some more dubs.

>>2779597
>“Oh, that was a really… well constructed sentence. You should be an English professor at Cornot University.”

>>2779629
Go whence you came: >>>/b/

>>2779499

Fear of the unknown, death being the greatest and most final. Hope that perhaps I will find something in this life to make it worth living. Compassion for the few remaining people who actually give a damn if I die. I'm not some angsty teen saying fuck the world; I just don't see the point.

>>2779778
This is a much better response and one I can sympathize with.

>Fear of the unknown, death being the greatest and most final.
It's not so unknown unless you give it supernatural means to maintain your own self. But I don't buy that. I accept that fear of death can be the greatest and most final, but I think it's the fear of not existing that would keep me from killing myself if I ever felt that way again. Because I have the rest of the universe to not exist, and only a few more decades to try to enjoy this or make it mean something or change things for the better before I go.

>Hope that perhaps I will find something in this life to make it worth living.
If you can, try to be less passive about this. Consider revising priorities. If you're not doing anything worthwhile (to yourself, I mean), try to think of what might be and then pursue it. I'm sorry I can't be more specific; you'll need to create your own motivation.

>Compassion for the few remaining people who actually give a damn if I die.
I was like this for a while in high school. It was my mom. I knew it would destroy her. If you can somehow manage to live for yourself AND others instead of just for others, you will be much more content.

>I'm not some angsty teen saying fuck the world; I just don't see the point.
The problem is that there's no inherent point. You're the result of several processes, none of which dictate what you should or must do. There is an institutional "point," to "benefit society" through employment and reproduction, but that's clearly as empty to you as it is to me. You need to make your own point, or at least try to.

If you haven't read The Stranger by Albert Camus, please do.

>>2779778
And you are right. There is no point. Almost everyone fears death for some reason or another. That's why it's fucking death. A dog won't jump off a cliff because he instinctively knows something bad could happen. It's the same for humans.

We are just animals, all the same. That's what that retard "neitchze" poster doesn't understand; we are animals and have survival instincts, even if we wish we weren't born ffs.
>his face when

>>2779812
The biological imperative is the best you have to offer? How old are you? Have you even finished high school?

>>2779818
>uses the words "biological imperative" as if they're a cuss

You're disgusting.

>>2779824
Do you consider the fact that you evolved to live long enough to reproduce a satisfactory raison d'etre?

>>2779804
But we are also animals and have instincts ingrained in us to survive at all costs. That's why suicide is so rare. Even in the country with the highest suicide rates less than 0.04% do it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate).).

It's not just something people do on a whim because they learn some new philosophy like Schopenhauer or something. Even if they plan it all out perfectly, it is EXTREMELY rare that they will go through with it.

If someone is old and ill, that's a different story altogether btw. Then it is easily justified and reasonable. But a younger person in good physical health will only attempt it if they have DEEP psychological issues. It is hardly just a matter of choice.

>>2779818
Is that the only way you can respond to a reasoned argument? Attacking a person's intelligence?

>>2779833
I don't disagree with any of this.

But I don't think being alive is its own justification, and I am not going to stop someone whose life is endless suffering, or someone who has seriously decided that life is not worth living, from ending it.

>>2779843
You're very immature.

>>2779844
>But I don't think being alive is its own justification

Justification for what?

>>2779851

You are the cancer.

Is this really what you find enjoyable? Samefagging and posting reaction images?

You're either underageb& or a pathetic fucking loser who's turning this wonderful board into a crock of shit-posting.

>>2779851
I dunno. It seems /lit/ finds your posts to be the ones lacking maturity. I would agree with them.

>>2779855
There's no need to be angry, anonymous.

>>2779140
>pessimism
Just as shitty as optimism. It just is what it is. I don't deem it good or bad since I have nothing to compare it too.
>antinatalism
I'm more for breeding the fuck out of the world and see what happens. Let's just run with it.
>life being meaningless
Well, sure. Interesting though.

>>2779527
5/10; pretty subtle, but still noticeable to a keen eye

>>2779862
You got trolled hard by some retard from /b/, just so you are aware of what went down in this thread. I mean, seriously, it couldn't have been more noticeable. I agree with most of your point ITT but regardless: AWARD FOR THE MOST OBLIVIOUS TRIPFAG GOES TOO

>>2780699
What are you talking about? I wasn't trolling at all.

>>2780735
haha, alright, pal

>>2780719
Well... okay.

I can't possibly be tricked >twice in a row.