/lit/ - Literature

[18] Quamquam ea quoque sit effusa, si ita in actis fuit. Ecquid est, quod tam proprie dici possit actum eius, qui togatus in re publica cum potestate imperioque versatus sit, quam lex? Quaere acta Gracchi; leges Semproniae proferentur. Quaere Sullae; Corneliae. Quid? Pompei tertius consulatus in quibus actis constitit? Nempe in legibus. De Caesare ipso si quaereres, quidnam egisset in urbe et in toga, leges multas responderet se et praeclaras tulisse, chirographa vero aut mutaret aut non daret, aut, si dedisset, non istas res in actis suis duceret. Sed haec ipsa concedo; quibusdam etiam in rebus coniveo; in maximis vero rebus, id est in legibus, acta Caesaris dissolvi ferendum non puto.

(also this is copy-pasta'd from an email I sent to a professor I know hence the weird formatting)

[16] Primum igitur acta Caesaris servanda censeo, non quo probem (quis enim id quidem potest?), sed quia rationem habendam maxime arbitror pacis atque otii. Vellem adesset M. Antonius, modo sine advocatis (sed, ut opinor, licet ei minus valere, quod mihi heri per illum non licuit); doceret me vel potius vos, patres conscripti, quem ad modum ipse Caesaris acta defenderet. An in commentariolis et chirographis et libellis [se] uno auctore prolatis, [ac] ne prolatis quidem, sed tantum modo dictis, acta Caesaris firma erunt; quae ille in aes incidit, in quo populi iussa perpetuasque leges esse voluit, pro nihilo habebuntur?

[17] Equidem existimo nihil tam esse in actis Caesaris quam leges Caesaris. An, si cui quid ille promisit, id erit fixum, quod idem facere non potuit? ut multis multa promissa non fecit; quae tamen multo plura illo mortuo reperta sunt quam a vivo beneficia per omnis annos tributa et data. Sed ea non muto, non moveo; summo studio illius praeclara acta defendo. Pecunia utinam ad Opis maneret! cruenta illa quidem, sed his temporibus, quoniam iis, quorum est, non redditur, necessaria.

[16] First off, I think the Acts of Caesar must be preserved, not because I agree with them (who could?), but because I think a rational republic is the root of peace. I wish Marcus Antonius were here, though without his bodyguard (I suspect he is allowed to be ill, which I yesterday was not allowed); he would teach me, or rather you, Senators, precisely how far he would defend the Acts of Caesar. Or will those Acts of Caesar stand firm which on the authority of One Man [Antony] are presented - not presented, indeed, but only spoken of - as being in his notebhooks, while those which Caesar carved in bronze, in which he desired the Laws to be, be held as nothing?

[17] I, at any rate, think there are no Acts of Caesar which are not Laws of Caesar. Or, if he promised something to someone, will it be posted, when he himself could not do it? Indeed he did not promiss many things to many people; nevertheless more benefices are discovered after he has died than were published when he was alive. But I'm not interested in changing those Laws, nor do I attempt to; with the greatest eagerness I defend his excellent Acts. Would that there were still money in the Temple of Ops! That money was bloody, but in these times, since it is not given to those whose money it is, it is necessary.

[18] Though let those things be done, if they stand thus in the Acts. Why is it that the Laws and Acts of a man can be viewed as the same, a man who toga'd wandered through this Republic with power and imperium? Look for the Acts of Gracchus: the laws of Sempronia will be brought forth. Look for Sulla's, look for Cornelia's. Indeed! In what Acts is the third consulship of Pompey approved? It is approved in the Laws. If you were to ask Caesar himself what on earth it is he accomplished, toga'd in the city, he would respond that he brought forth many laws, and excellent ones to boot, but that he either wished to alter his notebooks, or not to present them, or, if he were to present them, they would no longer be Acts. I grant these things; to these things I turn a blind eye; in respect to great affairs, that is the Laws, I think the Acts of Caesor should not be dissolved.

>sed quia rationem habendam maxime arbitror pacis atque otii
>Your translation:but because I think a rational republic is the root of peace
More accurately, it's something like, 'but because i think that we should hold peace and tranquillity of the highest regard.'

>>2842588

Ah that does make good sense. We should "habendam maxime" the "rationem pacis et oti".

With 'sine advocatis,' it would be more conventional to translate it as 'supporters' or 'advocates,' than 'bodyguards.' The former translation relies on the fact that there is a conventional noun, 'advocatus' that means something like that; your translation relies on the fact that the ppp of advoco, could be taken to mean someone 'summoned to provide some sort of help.' I would check a commentary on this one, but the translation i have opts for the former.

>>2842593

Yeah my commentary suggests that Cicero was using "advocati" sarcastically and that Antony would come into the Senate with his "Veterani" at his side. That's the funnest thing about Classics, I think; people who don't care to study them think they've been done to death, but the meaning of some passages is still debatable, even after the centuries of diligent study that the Renaissance set off.

>quod mihi heri per illum non licuit
It's worth making explicit here the 'per illum' indicating that it is Antony that has complained about Cicero's absence.

>quem ad modum ipse Caesaris acta defenderet
Your translation makes this a little bit too conditional, whereas it's only subjunctive because it's an indirect question, i.e. 'how far he himself supported Caesar's laws' the problem with making it too conditional is that you lose the sense that this is a past tense description.

>in quo populi iussa perpetuasque leges esse voluit
it's best to get everything translated in this, 'in which he wanted there to be the requirements and perennial laws for the people [objective genitive]'

>>2842601
In that case, you can probably keep 'bodyguards.' Yeah, I've just been reading Petronius and half of what's said in it is a completely mystery. Did you want a precise (but nice sounding) translation or just something approaching precision?

>fixum
Better to say something like 'ratified'
>ut multis multa promissa non fecit
'seeing as he failed many people in many promises'
>Quamquam ea quoque sit effusa
'Effusa' specifically refers to the money at the temple of Ops and is better translated as 'squandered.'
>Ecquid est, quod tam proprie dici possit actum eius
'is there anything, which can be said to be his peculiar (i.e. unique to him) act'

>Quaere Sullae; Corneliae.
Bring out the semi-colon a little more 'Ask for Sulla's laws; you'll find Cornelia's.'
>Quid?
this is more like 'furthermore?' or 'what more?'
>Pompei tertius consulatus in quibus actis constitit? Nempe in legibus
This is the same trail of thought as in the stuff about Sulla, 'of what deeds did Pompey's third consulship consist of? in his laws of course.'
> non istas res in actis suis duceret
get the third person in here, cause it's kinda important. 'HE would not class these matters among his deeds.'
>in maximis vero rebus, id est in legibus, acta Caesaris dissolvi ferendum non puto.
'in his most significant affairs, that is in the laws, i think it intolerable that acts of Caesar be dissolved.'

>>2842624

Just something approaching precision. I'd forgotten about Perseus. They have a literal translation of all the Philippics. I don't like to look at translations until I've done my damndest to understand the passage myself (can't stand Loebs, though they were useful at one time and I wasted money on a fair number of them).

Thanks for all your help it is very illuminating. And good luck with Petronius! Novels are tough. I read Historia Apollonii Regis Tyri a couple of days ago and it was a bitch. The Latin was simple but the Late-Antiquity of it was unbearable (lots of "tua maiestas" etc.). Also there's this scene where a woman in a coma is revived by a doctor and I doubt anyone besides an expert in the history of medicine could really understand what the fuck was going on there.

"At vero adulescens tulit ampullam unguenti et ad lectum devenit puellae et detraxit a pectore vestes, unguentum fudit et omnes artus suspiciosa manu retractat, sentitque a praecordiis pectoris torporis quietem. Obstupuit iuvenis, quia cognovit puellam in falsa morte iacere. Palpat venarum indicia, rimatur auras narium; labia labiis probat: sentit gracile spirantis vitam prope luctare cum morte adultera et ait: "Supponite faculas per IIII partes." Quod cum fecissent, tentat lentas igne supposito retrahere manus, et sanguis ille, qui coagulatus fuerat, per unctionem liquefactus est.

>>2842667

Quod ut vidit iuvenis, ad magistrum suum currit et ait: "Magister, puella, quam credis esse defunctam, vivit. Et ut facilius mihi credas, spiritum praeclusum patefaciam." Adhibitis secum viribus tulit puellam in cubiculo suo et posuit super lectulum, velum divisit, calefecit oleum, madefecit lanam et effudit super pectus puellae. Sanguis vero ille, qui intus a perfrictione coagulatus fuerat, accepto tepore liquefactus est coepitque spiritus praeclusus per medullas descendere. Venis itaque patefactis aperuit puella oculos et recipiens spiritum, quem iam perdiderat, leni et balbutienti sermone ait: "Deprecor itaque, medice, ne me contingas aliter, quam oportet contingere: uxor enim regis sum et regis filia.""

Yeah, they'll often have commentaries as well. I apologize about the pedanticism, there's a premium for it where I'm taught.

Do you like ancient novels in general? I've heard good things about Apuleius and the Daphnis and Chloe (and what i read of this was pretty good as well) but nothing much else. What about late literature in general? I only know names really from this period, Claudian, Oppian etc.

>>2842690

>Yeah, they'll often have commentaries as well. I apologize about the pedanticism, there's a premium for it where I'm taught.

Oh I don't think you were being pedantic at all! Mastering the Latin subjunctive mood is very difficult. The only way to read Latin without pedanticism is to practice pedanticism until you're pedantic for Latin grammar without thinking about it!

I'm interested in Apuleius because I've heard it suggested that the book is a sort of allegorical code for a mystery cult. I suspect mystery cults practiced meditation. They may even have had psychedelics, though maybe it's best we don't open that can of worms on 4chan.

In theory I'm very interested in the literature of late antiquity. But I'm avoiding it for now because some of those works are "too easy" to read and make reading Classical stuff more difficult than it should be. I am ESPECIALLY interested in Boethius, and Boethius' Latin is pretty much impeccable. I love Boethius so much that I have not finished his Consolatio. I started on it a few months ago and was moved so much by what little I *could* comprehend that I threw myself back into the Classics so that some day in the future I'll be able to read him comfortably.

>>2842788

But basically daily practice with Latin is helping a lot. I'm unemployed and living with my parents at the moment (because "hurr imma get a bachelor's in Classics") so I have nothing but otium.

I love how the Latins didn't have leisure and business. They had otium and negotium: etymologically, "leisure" and "not-leisure".

One of my favorite things about being involved in Classics academia is that it's such a goddamn small group of people and they're all very helpful and eager to teach others.

My ultimate goal is to become a Latin teacher, but I need a Master's degree to do that, and I'm taking a couple of years away from school because I'm sick of school. But I won't let my Latin falter!

>>2842796
You need a master's to teach Latin? the only teachers at my alma mater that had had masters had just upgraded their BA Oxons/Cantabs by payments

>>2842827

In New York State you do. I'm not living there right now, but I was born in Buffalo and am obsessed with that city.

Technically the New York State law is that you need to have a master's degree in "something", which for most "teachers" means a worthless master's degree in "Education". I figure it'll look better on my resume if I have a master's degree in my subject, and am fully certified through an extra semester of education classes.

It's really hard to do anything properly in New York State haha.

>>2842827

Also, what's an oxon/cantab?

>>2842844

>Technically the New York State law is that you need to have a master's degree in "something"

are you sure that's the case? i was considering teaching english and errbody said you pretty much need the mst

>>2842844
>>2842846

forgot my trip

>>2842846
A BA Oxon is a bachelor's degree from Oxford (and cantab for Cambridge), which you can still (but probably for not much longer) upgrade to an MA a few year's after graduation with a modest payment. As I say, about half the classics teachers didn't opt to do this, either because of a distaste for elitism or because they couldn't be fucked.

>>2842851

Maybe I am wrong. I'm not super concerned at this point in my life. I'm recovering from an illness right now and when I'm stronger I'm going to go back to Buffalo and do landscaping/carpentry stuff for a couple of years, I got my ba early (basically out of luck it's a long story) so I feel too young to go straight to grad school. Plus I want to make sure I can't be comfortable living a simple life before I go for all that.

>>2842856

Ah you're European. A Bachelor's Degree in America is damn near useless at this point because every tiny Liberal Arts college is so desperate for students that they'll let in damn near anyone. It's pretty fucked and it goes back to the GI Bill (basically veterans were allowed to go to college).

In America they keep trying to broaden "access" to college education, and call me an elitist but I swear at least 50% of the general student body did not belong in college. Like we were required to take classes on "critical thinking". And this is one of the "good schools". No Harvard but no Arizona State either.

>>2842868
I guess Boethius' Consolatio is good for someone who's just suffered from something debilitating. May I recommend Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy which features lots of little bits of originally composed latin poetry and deals with physical and mental illness.

and similar things happened recently in the uk, around blair's epoch, where basically it was a government goal to get pretty much every secondary schooler a degree. the net effect was wierdly minimized by the fact that most people wanted to get vocational degrees like hairdressing and so the places that used to offer training in that sort of thing (we call them polytechnics) became weird sort of universities. although a lot of the middle ranking university sorta degraded, with the net effect that in a standard degree you have to submit like 2 essays a term which is kinda dumb and a waste of dumb. continental europe's still the world utopia for higher education; most of it's free, all institutes offer a similarly high quality of education and they operate on a policy of accepting pretty much anyway, but kicking out anyone who can't make the grade in exam or coursework

>>2842897

YES! I love Burton. Especially because the "illness" I'm recovering from is a mental one (manic-psychotic break from reality).

I like to think Burton really did see devils. Because when I was crazy I thought I could see God everywhere.

I also stopped taking my "antipsychotic" meds (they make you feel like shit it's in a lot of ways a worse state of mind than a psychotic mania). Slow taper, did it semi-safely, yadda yadda. I don't know I like to talk about myself, most Americans do. And the Americans that are too shy to talk about themselves in real life talk about themselves on 4chan.