/lit/ - Literature

Respectable choice. Henry James stopped up the dam so tightly that brilliances like Joyce had to resort to pidgin and brilliances like Woolf had to resort to nonsense. The Ambassadors and The Golden Bowl particularly are beyond wonderful.

>>2878157
I've not read anything by Henry James, and now I feel as if I have been missing out.

I will pick that book up before the semester begins. The premise looks immensely interesting.

>>2878176

Which book? I like The Ambassadors more. It's nearly perfect, except, as in all James, that James is uncomfortably self-conscious. Read Sharon Cameron and the abridged Edel about him as well if you want the full story.

>>2878152

In the middle of Moby Dick now. When Melville is progressing the narrative and we're actually among the characters, I'm enthralled by his writing. When he's talking about the minutiae of whales and whaleships, with only rare exception, I'm bored to tears. Is there something I'm simply missing in these more technical chapters?

It's been a while since I read it, but I always thought Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury" was particularly beautiful.

>>2878194
I was referring to the Golden Bowl, perhaps I will try Ambassadors instead.

>>2878209
Reading the technical bit just makes me want to smoke my tobacco pipe really badly. I certainly don't have to pause and smile during those bits, but I've not read or looked at anything as to whether there are metaphors or meanings or if it is all indeed technical. I assume the latter.

I've only read As I Lay Dying and was rather depressed throughout the entire book; a very somber atmosphere.

>>2878243

Faulker is wonderful, but he's ultimately pretty much Henry James's dumb cousin.

Ulysses

>>2878209
>When he's talking about the minutiae of whales and whaleships, with only rare exception, I'm bored to tears. Is there something I'm simply missing in these more technical chapters?

It depends how interesting you find the topic of 19th century whaling. I found those chapters absolutely fascinating because it was a topic I previously knew nothing about and the sheer novelty of cramming 50 dudes on a tiny ship and sailing around the world to hunt mammals the size of buildings. I read mostly nonfiction and hard sf anyway so those data dumps weren't that offputting.

However, there is some rich symbolism and metaphor embedded in those "technical" chapters. Consider Chapter 89, "Fast Fish and Loose Fish". It starts with explaining an arcane bit of whaling law but quickly digresses to extend this law to cover human society and the nature of property, possession, oppression, territoriality, Manifest Destiny, and personal freedom.

Absalom, Absalom!

>>2878303

I kid you not, I just this very moment finished that chapter before returning to the laptop. It is a fine example of the "rare exception", which in reality may not be quite so rare as I initially suggested. The example of such symbolism that came to mind in my initial post is Chapter 60, "The Line", where the dangers of the line are compared to the dangers of life itself, culiminating in that wonderful "all are born with halters round their necks" bit.

I typically enjoy non-fiction, but more of the historical sort. "Fast Fish and Loose Fish" was swell. Comparing the physiology of the Sperm and Right Whales was arduous.

Thanks for reminding me to re-read Moby Dick. I agree with your opinion on it being the masterpiece of the english language.

>dem metaphors
>dem long philosophical tangents and musings
>dat whole atmosphere of being on a whaler ship

elder-god tier literature indeed.
It made me long for a change to spend a couple months at sea for whatever reason.

>>2878307
this, mah nigga

>>2878307
>>2878209
lot of Faulkner fans on /lit/

>>2878389

He's the greatest American author

>the most wondrous and excellent novel in the English Language?

That's tough to say. But it definitely doesn't fall into the genre of "literature" it will most definitely fall into the genres of Fantasy or Science Fiction.

>>2878307

Ditto. Yet TSATF and AILD are equally beautiful, too.

My Faulkner Four is as follows (in no particular order):

The Sound and the Fury
As I Lay Dying
Absalom! Absalom!
Light in August

>>2878399

>creating an incorrect dichotomy between "literature" and "the other stuff"
>posting the same exaggerated opinion in every thread with the word "literature" in it
>2012

ishiggydiggyhyddt

>>2878399

>this is what autists actually believe

The Beat Generation's rebellious influence on the ensuing English writing generations has proven inescapable. Kerouac stimulated the movement.

Can someone explain why he or she likes Henry James's work so much? I've only read several of his novellas, and I enjoyed them, but I wasn't as impressed with any of them as I was with Moby-Dick, for example.

>>2878486

Sure, I'll explain, if you tell what you've read by James.

>>2878492
Madame de Mauves, Daisy Miller, An International Episode, The Siege of London, Lady Barberina, The Author of Beltraffio, The Aspern Papers, and The Pupil.

>>2878495

A number of good works. However, James's three late novels (The Ambassadors, The Wings of the Dove, The Golden Bowl) all have a particular charm in that they go as far or further than other psychological realism goes. They break a boundary that James and no other author breaks. The Ambassadors in particular reflects on the conditions of personal interaction in a way that makes one nearly weep for their lack of sympathy. Certainly they're ponderous, but they transcend Proust in terms of the profundity and pathos of their ponderousness.

I'm going to say Jane Eyre or Heart of Darkness.

There are some really good writers around today

>>2878529

FakeTao?

>>2878529
Any recommendations? Always interested in learning about new authors.

>>2878529
Who?

Are those data-dump chapters a meta-textual device? Like, does Ahab's obsession with the whale soak into the text itself?

>>2878557
One would probably be McCarthy.

A Study in Scarlet was absolute poetry

Ulysses. It's miles beyond anything else I've ever read.

eh I'd have to go with Paradise Lost by Milton or Ulysses by Joyce. While Moby Dizzle is a respectable choice, Mr. Herman has a tendency to get off topic for...oh 40 pages at a time or so, before getting back to the narrative at hand.

>>2878574
god lmao

have you ever read any actual poetry

Ulysses
Moby Dick
The Sound and The Fury

Those are the top 3.

Jesus, what's with these fucking Modernists?

>>2878574

HAHAHA.

>>2878450

Kerouac was a poor man's Burroughs. And just because it was the first doesn't mean it was the best (and while it was the first beat book, it wasn't the first postmodern, Gaddis has that honor).

As for the best? Hard to say. I'd go with Infinite Jest, with Gravity's Rainbow coming in at a close second.

>>2878571

Fuck you. Try Philip Roth, Thomas Pynchon (though he hasn't been relevant since the 90's) Zadie Smith, Murakami.

>>2878693
>I'd go with Infinite Jest, with Gravity's Rainbow coming in at a close second.

Sunhawk tier tastes confirmed.

>>2878693
>IJ > GR

I'd say Milton - Paradise Losr

>>2878693
>Jesus, what's with these fucking Modernists?

Because having a boner for modernists while violently hating postmodernists is what's cool and trendy on /lit/.

>>2878822
No it's not. You just made that up.

>>2878152
I strongly recommend you start with Benito Cereno.
Real mind-fuck on slavery and America at different points in history. Pretty sure nobody agrees 100% on what melville was getting at in different parts of the novella.
It just begs you to apply your own bias.

>>2878693
>everyone, modernism is shit, try some murakami instead

>>2878937
It almost seems like Murakami was added as a last-minute troll.

Like the poster was sincere up until the very last word.

Novels are artistically shit compared to poetry and short story.

So, seeing as Novels are just entertainment and not art, MARK TWAIN wins the biscuit.

>>2878693
>Infinite Jest

that's Ayn Rand tier for lack of aesthetic enjoyment

>>2878944
DFW and Zadie Smith are also pretty mediocre

>>2878951
Poetry I can see where you're coming from, but not short story. A novel is just a really long short story. What difference does it make?

Meh. And I didn't even like it that much.

>>2878987
Short Story's can be compositionally sound, i.e. the elements in the work can all be well considered in relation to each other, this includes the word order of every sentence, every punctuation mark, every character description and action, every plot device, etc.
Novels are too big, it's a sprawl. You just keep adding and adding things, adding more and more descriptive details about peripheral things (realism), adding more and more subplots, etc. This makes it difficult to hold the work in sight, to view it all at once as a whole with it's parts arranged harmoniously.

>>2878995
In fact, going on the criteria I have lain here, I think the best novel would be the novel that is most beautiful at every instance of its reading, every point. So that even though you can't consider the whole (it's far too large) you can appreciate what is happening now as you are reading it, look back nostaligically on the things that came before in the book, and excitedly on the things to come, in this way it's a way of experiencing another, it's escapism. By this criteria Proust's In Search of Lost Time is the best ever.

>>2878995
Then do you feel the same way about epic poetry? Because you could say many of the same things about it.

>>2878995
>This makes it difficult to hold the work in sight, to view it all at once as a whole with it's parts arranged harmoniously.

It might be more difficult and take a bit more work, but it's no less rewarding, in my opinion, at least.

The Broken Heart by John Donne
The last stanza is by far the best thing I have ever read in life.

gravity's rainbow

You are being to generous OP, anyone who says anything besides Moby Dick has not read Moby Dick.

Bump

>>2878822

Haha. So wrong it hurts.

>>2879164

>What, in your opinion, is the most wondrous and excellent novel in the English Language
>The Broken Heart by John Donne

With that level of reading comprehension, I'm amazed you managed to finish your own post.

>>2881180
Well, to be fair, the title of the topic says 'literature', so there's nothing wrong with bringing up poems if we want to

>>2881193

Great, so no-one ITT has any clue what they're talking about, nor do they even read their own contributions?

I fucking hate /lit/

>>2881193
You're a pinhead.

>>2881199
>>2881200
OH no that one guy broke the really strict thread rules set up by OP so he could mention a poem that he liked. /lit/ is ruined

>>2881214

Or he doesn't know the difference between a poem and a novel.

>dat americlap edumacation

>>2881227
Congrats, that is probably the most obtuse and bizarre way one could interpret this situation.

>>2881227
>>2881231
>interpreting any situation without using gender theory
>2012

shiggy

No it isn't - you could interpret that the Donne guy has a learning difficulty that makes him see the letters POEMS as NOVEL and that the learning difficulty stems from the fact that he's a velociraptor and they have a different alphabet which is making it difficult for him to internalise English.

That's a lot more bizarre than the assumption that the Donne guy is stupid, or that he didn't properly read OP.

>>2881255
>that he didn't properly read OP.

Too bad no one even mentioned that this might be the case.

>>2881258

Because it's obvious, dick-brain. It doesn't need mentioning. You know when cretins say "it goes without saying" and then say it anyway? Because they're cretins? Well, this is one of those instances, only no-one actually said it, because it went without saying.

Clear enough for you? If not, then I think there's a thread about the Phantom Tollbooth around page 3, if not, then just wait for the next Harry Potter shit-thread, there's usually about one an hour - that may be more your strength.

>>2881268
In any case, you're saying a lot of mad words about nothing, so.

>>2881275

HURR DURR I NO REED 2 GUD, THAT LOT OF WORDS U MAD LOL.

So it's agreed, Moby Dick is the greatest novel written in the English language.

Although that accomplishment hardly does the book justice.

>>2881289
this is a fantastic derail, you are truly a /lit/ treasure

Huck Finn muthafuckaaaaaas.
Followed by To Kill a Mockingbird.
I refuse to explain myself because I'm from /v/ and I'm frightened of your towering intellects

>>2881345
you should be, bitch

Lord of the Flies is definitely a literary masterpiece. The fact the entire book is practically a metaphor of WW2 and human instinct is nothing short of amazing.
Another book, yet short, is Of Mice and Men. It's a great story, deep yet straight to the point.
Mein Kampf, not originally in English however, is remarkable in itself, primarily due to the fact Hitler wrote this part biography and part political insight that showed his beginning steps and his plan to remove Jewry from Europe all together. Still, no one listened.

>>2878569
think of them as charting ishmael's changing perspective from early in the novel where he and the others of the crew accept ahab's version of the whale as a sort of 'pasteboard mask' agent of a baneful deity to the end where, by examining all aspects of whales, he is able to discard ahab's version and with it the religious philosophy it carries. which is not to be read as ishmael embracing traditional christianity or religion in any sense.

>>2881440

1/10

I'm honestly surprised that no one has mentioned the Lord of the Rings. If you've only seen the movies, you're not permitted to argue this. While it's extremely dry, and drags on occasionally, as a whole, it is a captivating novel. I think Tolkien gets extra points for actually going so far in depth as to add a full history, and a function able language.

This thread made me realize how few books I've read that were originally written in English.

The answer is Lolita.

Harry Potter. Why? J.K.Rowling managed to get millions of kids to read, myself included. With out the exploits of that magical teenage boy, I am almost certain I would never have picked up literature as a hobby.

>>2881525
I think that that's a Russian novel.

>>2881532
A lot of Nabokov's works are up for debate. He was a Russian author, but he wrote a lot of his books in both English and Russian, or he helped his son to translate them for him.
Lolita, however, was originally written in English, so it technically counts.

Not it's fine, you are not required to read anything else by Melville XD Moby Dick was one of a kind and would be a close candidate for me as well.

Besides it, I'd also throw in Herzog and the Satanic Verses as possibilities. I know many would disagree, but that's just my perspective obviously.

>>2881533
well played, well played.

>>2878501
James was a good author; nothing he wrote comes close to Proust in terms of Pathos.

>>2881565
Not bad for my first /lit/ post, eh?

>>2881597

In this thread, you say a single work. You mentioned 7 separate works within the same story.

And you actually never mentioned the actual works. You just mentioned the author.

2/10

>>2878995
Novels are different from short stories and poetry, but you're going a little far in calling them shit by comparison. They're just different.

>>2878998
I'm sorry, this is just bs. I am sorry for you that you can't consider large novels as a whole, but after pointing out your handicap, you can't go on to say that the best novel ever was In search of lost time. Just no.

>>2881440
Lord of the Flies is good parable, but I thought it to be just an average story. I couldn't stand having to read Of Mice and Men >.<; it bored me to tears.

>>2881605
I mention a series, not a singular work by an author.

The series is well known enough, I assumed each work need not be mention individually. Additionally the individual works are not incredibly impressive, but as a collection have given many the jump start they need to book-lovers.