/lit/ - Literature

There's no consensus opinion here on pretty much any book. I love it.

babby's first angst with a grasp of prose rivaled by a prebubescent

ITT: CLT talking to himself

It's a masterpiece. The people on /lit/ who think it's a bad book don't know what the fuck a good book is.

It's not so much that we don't like TCITR, but that we don't like Salinger

>>2935016

Nope

It's okay. It's not the best thing ever but it's a perfectly fine character study.

>>2935019
What a fucking shitty argument

>>2935021

>>>/mu/27732415

>>2935015
Come on. Salinger was one of the greatest writers of prose who has ever lived. You are the cancer.

>>2935025
>cancer

>>>/b/

>>2935015
I've noticed that among circles of... let's be diplomatic and call them "amateur and/or aspirant literary critics", every variation and permutation of "the prose is bad" actually serves no intellectual conversational function besides "I dislike the work in question, and I want to frame my taste as being above it, but I am unwilling or unable to articulate any specific flaws that it possesses".

Just a musing. Carry on.

Plenty of people here think it's a good book.

>>2935012
I'd imagine most of us are utterly bored with it. It's like going on /tv/ and saying guys how about that fight club heheh pretty nice movie hehe

>>2935025
I've never found his prose - in Catcher at least - particularly exceptional. I think it's stronger in other places, and he's definitely a good writer, but you're making a really strong claim here and I don't know if it's justified.

>>2935034
There's some truth to that, but it's also the case that a sustained critique of an author's prose style is almost always beyond the scope of a single post on a forum. It's generally difficult to articulate specific problems with an author's prose in 4chan posts.

>>2935042
There's also some truth to this.

>>2935023
I'm completely serious. It's the same shit every time -- they haven't understood what they read. And they haven't read enough to recognize what's good and what isn't.

They're like little kids sent into a grocery store with ten dollars; all they want is candy. They have no idea that it's bad for them. They think it's good because they like it. Nutrition is not something they can grasp.

We always hear the same bullshit about Catcher in the Rye: It's angsty. Holden's a whiner. (Or, alternatively and perhaps more often, they say Salinger's the whiner.) This is because they don't relate to the character, and that's as far as their brains can think. The same people who hate Catcher in the Rye because Holden is a whiner love Ender's Game, because that little boy is secretly a misunderstood genius who has the capa-- ah fuck it.

Catcher in the Rye should never be taught in schools. That's really the problem. An English teacher trying to teach Catcher in the Rye is as perverse as a chemistry teaching children to make bombs. And they stuff it down a kid's throat, of course the kids are going to resent it. They're going to be predisposed against it.

They haven't read Salinger's other works. They don't understand the stunning degree of the command that Salinger has over viewpoint and voice. They, very honestly, don't have the frame of reference required to understand what makes it good.

>>2935034
You realise that applies to any statement one can make about the quality of a piece of art? Why are you even here is the concept of subjectivity is a problem for you?

>>2935034
You can present an opinion without the arrogant condescension. It might even help your argument. I know you do things differently at /mu/, but just try and be civil

>>2935057
Are you serious? The guy who CLT replied to was the one who used an arrogant condescending attitude.

>>2935053
No it doesn't. Many people, in making their subjective statements about their opinion about the quality of a piece of art, are able to support those statements with evidence, context, and reasoning.

It doesn't necessarily make their opinions *correct* but it's a damn sight better than "The prose sucks LOL"

>>2935050
I don't usually discuss literature on 4chan. I mostly encounter flippant remarks in the "bad prose" family in real life discussion, when people want to make a point without having to make a point.
>>2935052
5 star post.
>>2935053
I don't think you understood my contention. Just because all interpretations are subjective doesn't mean all interpretations are equally illuminating; some are much better supported than others.

>>2935052
It's more complicated than that. I think that most of the people you're describing who dislike the book dislike it because they do relate to Holden, in a way. Specifically, they related their past selves to him - he represents something that they think they've matured beyond and therefore loath. Or maybe that they find annoying in others, etc. I do think, though, that it's possible for someone to legitimately dislike Catcher in the Rye - it's not a perfect novel.

Honestly, though, this discussion is really fucking boring. This isn't the first time I've had a discussion about how people, at first, like Catcher in the Rye far too much because they over-identify with the character and then dislike it far too much because they hate the character. This isn't the first time I've had a discussion about how I've had a discussion about that. This isn't the first time I've had a discussion about how all Catcher in the Rye threads are fucking boring and repeat the same points over and over. All this has happened before and all this will happen again. There is nothing new in the world. I'm going slowly insane.

>>2935061
He's lashing out at the CLT tripcode, not at anything I wrote. I'm so used to it by now that I barely even notice it.

>>2935064
>I mostly encounter flippant remarks in the "bad prose" family in real life discussion, when people want to make a point without having to make a point.
I genuinely wonder how is CLT IRL

>>2935061
I never said he didn't. What exactly is your point?

i've never seen samefaggotry this blatant, even from CLT

Yeah CLT is right! What a genius!

You show em CLT! Brilliant arguments man!

>>2935072
You only accused CLT for being arrogant to another arrogant poster.

>>2935075
I agree! What a handsome and correct man CLT is!

>>2935075
>>2935079
>>2935081

I lol'ed

>>2935080
It doesn't change anything. The fact that he ignored my post but responded to your criticism is just further evidence that he's hiding behind your posts to dodge the point

>>2935068
Do you mean how am I doing, or how do I behave?
>>2935065
You hit the psychological nail on the head.

I just wish more people would be as self-conscious about their motivations for "hating it" the way they claim to; it's usually so irritatingly transparent but if you try to have a serious critical discussion about the book in their presence they feel dissonant and then threatened and finally lash out irrationally. I've taken to just not mentioning it when someone asks me my favorite books/authors just because mentioning Salinger's name in a room of middle-class 20-somethings is enough to spark a battle.

>>2935087
>Do you mean how am I doing, or how do I behave?
The latter

>>2935085
I ignored your post because you're a plebeian simpleton, but if my neglect hurt your feelings then I apologize.

>>2935052
Seems like a pretty huge strawman with obvious holes, albeit a well-articulated one. I'd love to hear why I am wrong though, because I personally enjoy Catcher quite a bit

>>2935065
Yeah. But the people who love it because they relate to the character or no better than the people who hate it because they don't. At least they're on what I consider to be the right side of the argument, but that doesn't mean that they've understood what's good about it either.

I'm speaking now not of the story, but of the novel as a piece of writing: the craft of it, the technique of it, the skill. It's as perfect as any book can be, in my opinion. I've never read a more distinct voice, a more consistent voice, a more precise translation of an imaginary person from the mind of a writer onto the page.

Part of the problem with Catcher is that the Holden character is so real, people read the book and react to it the way they would react to an actual human being. And in many cases they project the qualities of the Holden Caufield character that they loved or hated onto Salinger himself.

That's what I find unfair, I suppose. Because Salinger wrote many different people, in many different voices. And the structures of his stories were as perfect as mathematical equations.

This motherfucker was one of the rarest writers, and these dummies read Catcher in the Rye, dislike it, and start telling people that Salinger sucks. I'm sorry -- Salinger doesn't suck. Fuck you. He was a Beethoven or a Michaelangelo. Maybe you read something of his and didn't like it. Fine, not everyone shares the same tastes. But don't lift your eyes from the page and close the book and proclaim it trash. Because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

That wasn't necessarily directed at anyone here. It's just some shit I see on /lit/ sometimes and tend to ignore. Because, why bother?

>>2935088
Probably not the way 4chan expects. I have small a handful of close friends with my girlfriend at the center, make just enough money doing music jobs to pay the rent, and am generally regarded as excellent at disagreeing civilly with people, unless I'm intoxicated or wanting a fight or both.

>>2935090
And this is why you don't invite /mu/ to talk about literature

>>2935087
I don't hate the book, I think it's okay.

>>2935101
Yeah you're not wrong I just really don't give a shit about that conversation anymore. Everything you're saying is true.

>>2935101
Another 5 star post.

>I've never read a more distinct voice, a more consistent voice, a more precise translation of an imaginary person from the mind of a writer onto the page.
That's exactly what it is. The craft. Who even writes dialogue as well as JD? No one I've ever read has convinced me as consistently and through such a menagerie of characters that I am reading a transcription of a living, breathing, speaking person's voice.

>>2935105
I wasn't talking about literature in that post, sweetie. I was merely insulting you. Do please try to keep up.

>>2935101
>Beethoven and Michelangelo
>not talentless hacks

this is the problem with having extensive knowledge in one medium of art; you invariably neglect all others

>>2935102
> make just enough money [...] to pay the rent
Must suck making virtually no money after all you've studied and how highly you think of yourself in terms of intelligence

>>2935119
>implying he was me

For someone has experienced with same-fagging as yourself one would think you'd be able to spot it


do try and keep up, sweetie

>>2935101
You know, there's something about books, I think, something about the democratic nature of the medium of writing, that makes people feel qualified to criticize them and to be dismissive of them.

Anyone can write. Anyone who knows how to read can pick up a pencil and put sentences on a pages. This isn't true of the other major art forms. You have to learn to play an instrument; you have to learn to sculpt. And paint -- to a lesser degree.

But everybody can write. Perhaps not well. Perhaps not with an understanding of theme and metaphor and symbolism or what might make a piece of writing meaningful... But they can do it.

And thus they don't think they have to understand those things... Or worse, the fact that some people do understand those things while they don't makes them resentful or suspicious in some way.

>>2935102
if you're the real CLT, why haven't you updated last.FM since you dropped your trip? and if you're not, how autistic do you have to be to continue this charade? I would have thought a fresh-start would be preferable anyway after all the hate that trip copped in 2010. Guess I'll never understand the mind of the average tripfriend

>>2935123
then name me the best classical composers.

Im only looking to expand knowledge of composers.

>>2935123
Oh, please. Don't be ridiculous.

>>2935052
You mean good books shouldn't be taught at school?

>>2935125
You probably don't believe me, but a roof over my head and a bed to share with my woman are just about all I need to be contented. I'm a slacker by nature, and almost all the things that make me happy are free anyway, if one knows where to look.

>>2935127
I never samefag, my dear one. You must, ironically, have me confused with someone else. Or perhaps you don't realize thus trip is public?

>>2935137
You're a dumbass

>>2935137
Aren't you passionate about other art mediums than literature and music? Like painting or architecture, or even fashion? Wouldn't you want to travel and see expositions, buy paintings you like and generally explore the world from somewhere else other than your computer?

>>2935129
Speaking from experience here, abject ignorance of music theory, history, performance, and production in no way precludes every plebeian and his brother from holding opinions that they'll defend to the death, even in the face of all rational evidence. The phenomenon you've described is not unique to literature.

>>2935119
You're a fucking pathetic piece of shit. You show up on /lit/ with one claim you can't even provide a single argument FOR, and then rely on everyone else to make your argument. All you do is point to their posts and shout "5 STARS!", and use meaningless bullshit terms like "plebeian" to insult anyone who disagrees with you.

Holy fuck. Go away. Stop relying on other people to make all your points for you.

My jimmies are rustled, congratulations.

>>2935152
he isnt even the OP
>>>/mu/27733428

>>2935148
Now that you mention it, no. That all sounds bourgeois, horrid, and wasteful.

>>2935132
>>2935132
>>2935132
>>2935132
>>2935132
>>2935132
>>2935132
stop ignoring this post fake CLT

>>2935152
>implying I posted the OP

For someone who frequents a board of purported literature enthusiasts, you sure are bad at recognizing writing styles.

>>2935156
So your only interests are literature and music? Come on, man, you can't possibly be satisfied with so little

>>2935154
In that thread he failed to provide an argument, so...

>>2935157
I quit using last.fm months before I dropped trip. It just seemed vain and pointless, and I noticed I was getting OCD about my mp3 player plays not scrobbling, and so I just logged off and never thought twice about it.

Besides, when a 20 min movement of a Brahms symphony measures is weighted as equal to a 45 second Wire song, you know you aren't recording data that reflects reality in any level anyway, lol.

>>2935170
>
> Besides, when a 20 min movement of a Brahms symphony measures is weighted as equal to a 45 second Wire song, you know you aren't recording data that reflects reality in any level anyway, lol.

>baww i didnt have 100k scrobbles and ppl laughed at me :(
that was a horrible argument even for you

>>2935162
What does a human being even need besides art and sex?

I guess if I wanted a baby or something I would buckle down, but that's years down the road...

>>2935175
I wasn't aware I was expected to present an "argument" for not using last.fm, lol.
>>2935165
Not true.

>>2935176
Experiencing drugs, getting to know different people / cultures. But whatever floats your boat, man. You're 22, right?
Also, I'm still not sure so I'll ask again: do you show any interest in other art mediums besides literature and music? "Show interest" as in being at least vaguely knowledgeable

>>2935180
>I wasn't aware I was expected to present an "argument" for not using last.fm, lol.
you werent expected but you tried either way. and failed

>>2935180
>where's your argument CLT?
>it's right there!
>where?
>there!

>voluntary poverty and simple living on my /lit/

Today is a good day.

>>2935184
Sort of out of my drugs phase for now, and traveling would be nice but I don't care quite enough to collect the means for it, plus I detest the whole "touristing" institution.

Beyond music and literature I'm working my way through the cinema canon, having gained access to an expansive library recently. Since I know someone will ask, my current top 10 is Aguirre, the Wrath of God; Apocalypse Now; Battleship Potemkin; Duck Soup; Fantasia; The Great Dictator; Princess Mononoke; The Seven Samurai; The Seventh Seal; Synecdoche, New York.

>>2935200
Do you have a RYM account to catalog your music + movies ?
Do you use anything for books like goodreads.com?

>>2935186
>tried
Did I now? I didn't notice.
>>2935189
Presumably you're literate. It's right there in the thread, should you wish to read it.

Sometimes it becomes irritating to be held to such a higher standard than other posters, but I guess the only burden is that I have to remain calm and rational in the face of howling angry plebeians, and that is not a task that I undertake without some amount of pleasure.

>>2935203
No to those, but my friend and I are about to launch a music review website.

>>2935207
When?

>>2935205
>where is it CLT?
>There! It's there man, you just gotta look :D!

>>2935207
is your friend as a pretentious dickhead as yourself?

>>2935208
Within the next month. We live on opposite coasts currently so coordination has been a delicate dance.
>>2935212
Tell me, what so you think I am pretending to be that I am not? I am interested in your input, because I believe I present myself fairly honestly.

>>2935213
*do you think

>>2935207
But you have horrible taste in music. In fact, your pleb:time on the site ratio is the highest I've ever seen

>>2935217
>the site
?

>>2935213
Nobody gives a fuck tripfag. Get back to discussing books, or skulk off back to /mu/. This isn't facebook you self-obsessed toad.

>>2935220
Not a difficult concept

>>2935221
Such aggression! Music will soothe the savage beast. <3

Jefferson Airplane - After Bathing At Baxter's
Pere Ubu - The Art of Walking
The Fiery Furnaces - Bitter Tea
The Olivia Tremor Control - Black Foliage: Animation Music Vol. 1
Grails - Black Tar Prophecies, Vols. 1, 2, & 3
Mercury Rev - Boces
Gong - Camembert Electrique
Univers Zero - Ceux de Dehors
Wire - Chairs Missing
Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation
This Heat - Deceit
The Flaming Lips - Embryonic
Cul de Sac - Ecim
Faust - Faust
The Mothers of Invention - Freak Out!
Can - Future Days
Chrome - Half Machine Lip Moves
Popol Vuh - Hosianna Mantra
The Holy Modal Rounders - Indian War Whoop
Neutral Milk Hotel - In The Aeroplane Over The Sea
The Books - The Lemon of Pink
The Grateful Dead - Live/Dead
Solex - Low Kick and Hard Bop
Frank Zappa - Lumpy Gravy
Birdsongs of the Mesozoic - Magnetic Flip
Yo La Tengo - May I Sing With Me
Tortoise - Millions Now Living Will Never Die
Thinking Fellers Union Local 282 - Mother of All Saints
The Microphones - Mount Eerie
Lightwave - Mundus Subterraneus
The Residents - Not Available
Amon Düül II - Phallus Dei
Butthole Surfers - Psychic... Powerless... Another Man's Sac
Cave - Psychic Psummer
Deerhoof - Reveille
Silver Apples - Silver Apples
The Beach Boys - Smiley Smile
Avey Tare and Panda Bear - Spirit They're Gone, Spirit They've Vanished
Dead Can Dance - Spleen and Ideal
Fuck Buttons - Street Horrrsing
Suicide - Suicide
Third Ear Band - Third Ear Band (Elements)
De La Soul - 3 Feet High and Rising
Stereolab - Transient Random-Noise Bursts With Announcements
Pink Floyd - Ummagumma
The United States of America - The United States of America
Mission of Burma - Vs.
Hash Jar Tempo - Well Oiled
Julian Cope - World Shut Your Mouth
Tangerine Dream - Zeit

>>2935223
Depends how inarticulately you express it, comrade.

>>2935225
>can

>>2935225
I like Jazz, Classical and some Blues, not that contemporary pop/rock rubbish.

>>2935227
>autism general

What do you think about the 2012 Dead Can Dance album CLT?

>>2935228
>i know a name from that list and im a pleb! gotta call it pleb

>>2935229
Miles, Davis, the list, yes, I'm sure you do.

Who are your three favorite pre-Baroque composers and a favorite piece by each?

>>2935232
>implying anyone has an excuse not to know every band on that list

Can is the worst kraut-rock band, easily. Granted, it's a small genre, but they're still sub-par.

>>2935231
I haven't listened to it. It's been so long since they put out anything decent.

>>2935237
>Can is the worst kraut-rock band, easily.
oh dear

>>2935225
>the fiery furnaces

I didn't remember you being this pleb CLT

>>2935241
>being a pleb
>any year

>>2935239
do you have a 2012 favorite?

>>2935237
This post is inane. Every patrician knows that distinction is the sole property of Kraftwerk.

Also
>Krautrock
>genre
Don't try to music, /lit/. You'll hurt yourself.

>>2935244
maybe you could give some arguments to why is can the worst krautrock band

>mfw /lit/ and /mu/ are now avowed enemies

>>2935225
le scaruffi face xD

Even when /mu/tants try their hardest to develop an original taste they fuck it up spectacularly

>>2935243
I can see why the Fiery Furnaces would hold more appeal for a trained musician than for a
layperson.

By all means, the rest of you, continue greentexting the one or two names you recognize and have heard. You're making me feel right at home.

Damnit /mu/ can't you just stay on your shitty board with your shitty "discussions" we're trying to talk about books here and don't need your shitty elitism crapping up the joint.

Catcher is 50/50 here btw /thread now go away

>>2935251

>implying clt is representative of /mu/ in any way

>>2935248
Not him, but I'm curious as to how someone would achieve this

>this music is good
>no it's bad
>prove it

this is why /mu/ as a board has failed so horridly

>>2935256

what are you talking about

we're the most muscular board on 4chan

>>2935251
Scaruffi's top 50 and my top 50 have 7 albums in common, but don't let me ruin your straw man. You're having so much fun with him.

>>2935255
it's like you've never been to /mu/

/MU/, GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY /LIT/.

>>2935256
but you can argue why in your opinion it's the worst krautrock band, dont go all retarded on me
he can just explain what he dislikes so much about their music and what bands he prefers over them and why
not my fault you cant support your opinions

>>2935261

it's like i'm from /mu/

>>2935264

CLT!!! what's your fetish? When was the last time you cried? Do you ever get angry? What are you favorite TV series? What's your IQ? Why don't you have a formspring yet?

>>2935263
why do you keep switching who you're referring to. you seem very confused

>mfw /mu/tans shitting up my /lit/

>>2935273
>implying /lit/ isn't awful to begin with

>>2935273
Mother fucking Pat the Bunny.

>>2935275
>implying /mu/ isn't worse and isn't making /lit/ worse

>>2935272
no i am not

>>2935256
Ideally, it would involve references to specific passages and or tracks citing technical musical terminology and relating it to an interpretation of the success or failure of the artist's perceived intention.

And, since no piece of art exists in a vacuum, it would be admissible to cite related artists, whether by style or by ethos, for comparing/contrasting purposes.

Unfortunately, musical illiteracy on /mu/ is more rampant than ever I'm the board's shady history, so the median "discussion thread" typically involves me making some sort of thesis and then a bunch of Anons calling me a pretentious faggot because I used the phrase "stepwise descending bass".

What's /lit/ like?

Why does /mu/ hate The Beatles?

>>2935279
no?

>>2935283
>artist's perceived intention
just no

>>2935285

The fact that so many critics, etc.

>>2935283
>what's /lit/ like?

>>2935283

>perceived intention.

get some Barthes in ya.

>>2935292

>>2935283
we havent all dedicated our lives to learn music theory. i understand you are going to a music uni, but we dont

>>2935286
Yes.

>>2935065
lol you made me laugh really loud

Tonight I bury Old William without remorse
Because Hell sleeps around and Heaven wants a divorce
Tonight I burn my bookshelf to be free
Because even a rebel tradition is slavery
Tonight I bake my madness a birthday cake
Because even the insomniacs aren't awake
Tonight I burn my home while they ??? ??? ???
So tomorrow I can live like I died yesterday,
Live like I died yesterday

Today a stampede killed Superman
And Apollo and Dionysus both got hanged
Today the revolution laughed and spit in my face
But all-expenses-paid Dada will take its place
Today the dropouts were smarter than the PhDs
As they took off with everyone's car without the keys
Today I bled failure all the way up to the sky
And I grinned hopelessly as I sit down to die,
As I sit down to die

>>2935288
>hurr hurr this school of aesthetic philosophy is objectively wrong and I don't have to support why

Some of you seem very bright on this board, but many of you are posturing intellectual lightweights who are incapable of developing independent critical perspectives. Prove me wrong, please.

>>2935292
post the D&E one

>>2935270
>>2935270
>>2935270
>>2935270
>>2935270
Answer me CLT!

>>2935302
>hurr hurr
You're the posturing intellectual lightweight and I shan't speak with you.

>>2935285
"/mu/" doesn't love or hare anything. Here's an article that can explain the herdmind's apparent perspective on any given topic at any given juncture.

http://nplusonemag.com/hype-cycle

>>2935295
great, now i feel like a pleb for listening to sunn o)))

>>2935309
i think he was refering to the OP

>>2935302
>implying those who you are talking right now are e/lit/ists and not /mu/tants

>>2935297
I accept this, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't shut your ignorant taps while one of your betters is telling you why Holger Czukay was a visionary and Bonny Bear is a hack.

Would I lecture a native speaker on what author(s) had the best prose in a language I can't read or speak? Of course I wouldn't, as I'd have no ground to stand on. The exact same principle applies to plebs who don't even attempt to learn intermediate theory and history.

>>2935302
Your school of aesthetic philosophy is contradictory, and even worse, dull.

>>2935313
Do you mean those to whom I am talking?

Sure is il/lit/erate in here tonight.

>>2935317
>Your school

I haven't outlined it, but by all means, do continue lecturing me about things you believe I believe. It is not dull at all to read.

>>2935315
False parallel. Anyway, I'd rather listen to you talk about music than some uneducated idiot from /mu/, but the "value" you're implying only exists in what those who've studied certain ways of understanding music has to say doesn't exist.

>>2935322
>by all means, do continue lecturing me about things you believe I believe
gotcha

>>2935319
/lit/ is mainly populated by sensible descriptivists, so you've made yourself look rather silly.

>>2935323
>False parallel
Not really. Music theory is really just a new language.

>"value"
Why would you put quotation marks around a word I never used?

>only exists in what those who've studied certain ways of understanding music has to say
Oh god, the postmodern angle. Do you actually believe in this, or can we skip to the part where we all accept that it's bogus and counterproductive?

>>2935334
>Not really.
The parallel would be true if you were comparing to a deaf person criticizing music

>>2935339
Not the anon you replied to, I forgot to mention

>>2935327
I consider myself beyond descriptivism and prescriptivism. A linguistic Übermensch, as it were.

>>2935339
Mm, no.

Think of hearing music without theory knowledge as being analogous to reading a translation of a novel from a foreign language.

You can get the gist of it and certainly enjoy it, but you have no business attempting to argue specifics, especially when knowledgeable people are around.

>>2935334
Do many people today respect postmodernism? I live in a rural town and really want to know. I think its dangerous

>>2935334
>Oh god, the postmodern angle. Do you actually believe in this, or can we skip to the part where we all accept that it's bogus and counterproductive?
If you don't want to argue, then that's fair enough, but say that you don't want to argue rather than employing childish attempts to save face.

>>2935344
>being analogous to reading a translation of a novel from a foreign language.
>You can get the gist of it and certainly enjoy it, but you have no business attempting to argue specifics, especially when knowledgeable people are around.
That sounds like an analogy for listening to a cover

>>2935344
A translation of a novel and the novel itself are completely separate, with neither being inherently better or worse than the other. So your parallel still doesn't work.

>>2935348
All right, we'll engage on your terms, but first give me something to refute that's a little more specific than "the experts' opinions don't matter". I'm spoiled for choices at this point since I don't even know what your rationale is.

>>2935344
dude your analogy was shit and superficial get over it

>>2935350
It can work for either one.

>>2935358
Didn't expect you to admit you were wrong anyway

>>2935342
What the fuck do you have to do with Nietzsche? You're pathetic. Nietzsche wouldn't even be on this website.

>>2935351
>A translation of a novel and the novel itself are completely separate
Go write a translation without knowing the source language then. We'll wait.

>with neither being inherently better or worse than the other
Link to the post where I used better/worse language.

Reading comprehension, /lit/! This is as bad as a /mu/ thread! I'm disappointed in you.

>>2935360
pls don't be real

>>2935359
>>2935355
>Waaaaah we don't want to admit that CLT can interpret music on more levels than we can, so we resort to calling him names after we get stumped trying to address his logic

Pitiful board. It's like everyone here is as cocky as me yet as stupid as /mu/. Worst of both worlds.

>>2935361
There was an implied structure of superiority and inferiority of experience in your parallel. Learn to read your own posts, breh.

>>2935315
I slightly disagree with you here. I really don't think knowledge has a say in it at all.

Ok say I'm talking to 'Dave'. Dave has no knowledge of music theory, but insists the Doors ate the greatest band to ever grace the face of this earth. Now I'm supposed to take his opinion with a pinch of salt, right. So now we have 'Steve'. Steve is trained in music theory. By age 3 he could play major, minor and pentatonic scales on 6 different instruments. by age 7 he had the hang of diminished and augmented chords, 7ths, 5ths, suspended, and at least 12 variations of all twelve chords (yes, i'm including flats/sharps). Buy 18 he could play any instrument in a contemporary orchestra to the highest respectable grade, and spent all his time working with musicians for concert performances.

Now I ask Steve what his favourite artist or piece of music is, expecting Bach and Mozart to be laughed at, and some obscure artist that I have never heard of to be named, but instead Steve turns around and says.
"You know what Anon, either BB King or Oasis"

Naturally this shocks me, so I ask "Why. Did you lose your virginity when Supersonic was playing? Get high for the first time at an Oasis Concert?"

"Because music theory is irrelevant when I'm enjoying a piece. I see a song as an antidote to a short time of silence and an Oasis song is the best way I have found to banish that silence. Sure, they are 'technically' inferior to a lot of artists, but in terms of capturing a certain emotive care free outlook, they can't be rivalled"

Now does this make Oasis better than the Doors?

>>2935365
im just saying your parallel is inaccurate

>>2935372
>that contextually exaggerated long steve description

>>2935372
> expecting Bach and Mozart to be laughed at
>implying actually knowledgeable people don't think Bach and Mozart are 2 of the greatest composers ever

>>2935367
Then you read it wrong.

A person who knows theory doesn't interpret music on _better_ levels; rather, he becomes able to interpret music on _more_ levels.

To continue the translation analogy that works so succinctly, an English speaker can read The Brothers Karamazov in English only. If he learns Russian, however, he is able to read it in English AND Russian. Neither is inherently better, but one objectively provides for more options.

>>2935372
No, because no piece of art can be inherently better than another piece of art.

I'm sorry you typed all that.

>>2935385
Don't be sorry. It's actually a true story.

>No, because no piece of art can be inherently better than another piece of art.
*No, because no piece of art can be subjectively better than another piece of art.

ftfy

>>2935380
I allowed myself to skim over that.

Whenever someone tries to apply the "obskewer is beddur" school of pop criticism to a discipline that isn't pop music, the result is even more excruciating than usual.

I recall an altercation where a trip named Daft!Punk persistently insisted that Allesandro Scarlatti was more innovative than J. S. Bach, with no suppers beyond "it just sounds that way to me".

Art which participates more in the nature of God is inherently superior to that which doesn't, or does less, your secular trash.

>>2935387
Anything can be subjectively better than anything, numbnuts. All a being has to do is perceive it that way. You have your philosophies mixed up.

>>2935388
*no supports

Fuck autocorrect. It's bedtime anyway.

>>2935393
isnt it like morning in america?

>>2935372
You are making the criterion of the value of a work of art the subjective feelings which it inspires. The only problem with this school of criticism is that it invites an even more subjective criticism: Steve may be stuffed with knowledge about music theory, he may even understood it, but he has remained all his life long what he was trained to be: an instrument, a technician, a journeyman. Steve is an emotional idiot, a philistine, who is incapable of connecting music with feeling, the upper-spheres of technical theory may be open to him, but the deeper spheres of violent human nature are shut off, and this is because all that scholarly criticism, in music as in literature, is only a way of fleeing from the human, from the feels. Probably, Perhaps. Maybe. Quite likely. Like sort of. Kind of. Yeah. "In quotation marks." (Obligatory bullshit for the DFW generation.)

>>2935391
Exactly. So what you personally are pushing as being 'objectively' better, is inherently just your subjective opinion.

You tried claiming that one who knows more about music theory is more qualified to make sweeping objective judgements. So I am pointing out, from the perspective of someone who can transcribe virtually any musical piece by ear, that this view is rubbish. People who have mastered realism in art can still turn around and say Rothko, Picasso and Pollock are the greatest painters, but their opinion will never really make this statement true or false, regardless of how much skill or knowledge they have accumulated.

>>2935399
this
Steve is a tasteless pleb deep down in his soul and will always be

If one combines a knowledge of musical theory with a practical and theoretical knowledge of the human being, the passions, the depths and ungodly abysses therein, as well as being one gifted with a fully developed seat of judgement, an intellectual conscious, and various other qualities and conditions incalculable for those who have not experienced and lived them, then one is qualified to judge music for human beings, and not just for musicians, or for plebs and journeymen.

When he saw an ignorant man tuning a psaltery, he said to him, "Are you not ashamed to be arranging proper sounds on a wooden instrument, and not arranging your soul to a proper life?"

>>2935410
>conditions incalculable for those who have not experienced and lived them
How do you know if you really experienced them?

>>2935414
so deep

>>2935419
That's another, gigantic, improbable if not insoluble matter. If indeed we had time to turn and roast the entire problem of modern epistemology in one life time, I would grant it a hearing.

cool

>>2935421
and the ignorant man sang: eeeeebony and iiiiivory/come together in perfect....

>>2936211
I remember saying something about that song to somebody years ago. I said it was about breaking down racism, and they said it was the piano keys.

You guys' threads last forever.

>people hating on Diogenes

He's your only hope.

>>2936417
Diogenes is my third favorite philosopher, interestingly enough.

>>2936429
And the two first?

>>2936712
Arthur Schopenhauer and Guy Debord, respectively.

>>2936429
>likes diogenes

confirmed retard, leave forever

........................ I like TCITR.

:I

>>2937089
I've been looking all over /lit/ for an intelligent man, but all I can find are plebeians like you.

CLT#ismokeweed

>>2937180
You are the plebeian, darling. Perhaps one day you will learn, though I do not hold my breath.

>>2937180
>>2937325
I want to be the plebeian

Gracchi in this bitch

>philosphy
>on lit


wat

>>2936889
>Implying that Schopenhauer isn't totally useless since Nietzsche.

>For let’s not underestimate the fact that Schopenhauer, who in fact treated sexuality as a personal enemy (including its instrument, woman, this “instrumentum diaboli” [tool of the devil]), needed enemies in order to maintain his good spirits, that he loved grim, caustic, black-green words, that he got angry for the sake of getting passionately angry, that he would have become ill, would have become a pessimist (—and he wasn’t a pessimist, no matter how much he wanted to be one) without his enemies, without Hegel, woman, sensuousness, and the whole will for existence, for continuing on. Had that not been the case, Schopenhauer would not have kept going—on that we can wager. He would have run off. But his enemies held him securely; his enemies seduced him back to existence again and again. Just like the ancient cynics, his anger was his refreshment, his relaxation, his payment, his remedy for disgust, his happiness.

>>2937967
>Implying that CLT wasn't always a filthy nihilist, egalitarian, life-denying, using the beauty of art to suppress the torture of his will and his desires temporarily, as Schopenhauer puts it.

/mu/ thinks listening to "obscure" music makes them intellectuals. It's cute.

So, this "discussion" has prompted me to never read Catcher in the Rye. It's also confirmed my suspicion that /mu/ is retarded.

>>2938002
They don't, they listen to Radiohead and Kanye West.

Stop judging the whole board just on one shitty tripfag.

>>2938008
breathing gives you cancer

>>2938008
CLT is just one autist who's returned to /mu/ after two years of absence.

His trip is right here >>2937278.

>>2938008
>Reading this thread has convinced me to form an opinion on a piece of literature which I have never read

Doesn't sound like we're the retarded ones, sweetheart.