/lit/ - Literature

I think it would be better for you to use the book, as you are reading it, as an impetus to learn things, rather than learn things simply to understand certain specific parts of the narrative that you have not yet been exposed to.

>>3517825

I once tried reading it and read about 150 pages; back then I wasn't aware that this was demanding reading, and I read it on lazy afternoons when I dozed on and off, so I didn't absorb much of what I read (which can happen with simple reading too). I just remember one scene, an anecdote, and the impression that I was reading beautifully written nonsense, an odd feeling to be sure.

>I only remember the idea that you don't hear the rockets until way after they reached

>that scene with a man going INTO THE TOILET and swimming amongst used toilet paper, and recognising someone's race via their shit stains

Sometimes I'm not sure why /lit/ thinks it's awesome, or rather, not always sure /lit/ has actually read what they claim to like. Discuss.

I just hope GR isn't assumed to be a clever book because it uses ellipses. That doesn't impress me much.

>>3517841
>>that scene with a man going INTO THE TOILET and swimming amongst used toilet paper, and recognising someone's race via their shit stains

But that's why it's awesome.

It really is laden with complex symbolism and stuff, though, it's almost like a silly 20th century Moby-Dick.

>>3517849
>it's almost like a silly 20th century Moby-Dick.

I like that. I wrote my thesis on MD. I may give GR another go, this time with a clear mind. Is there any deep and edgy symbolism to the toilet scene?

I consider Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass as the kind of stylistic basis for GR, and there are lots of direct allusions in there too.

People say Pynchon writes puzzles: can you show me a concrete example of a puzzle in GR? I want to see if that'd interest me or leave me cold.

That feel when I had a febrile hypnagogic dream in which I completely understood the whole of Gravity's Rainbow, but when I awoke I had forgotten it. All I remember is that mandalas and the Ouroboros were integral.

>>3517865
Pynchon only writes puzzles that are unsolvable, so good luck with that.

>>3517815
I'm a very fast and attentive reader (I know I'm jerking myself off a little here, but it's true) and yet I could not, for the life of me, get more than 150-200 pages into Gravity's Rainbow. Clearly it's a book with merit, that's why it has been so popular, but Jesus, it was like wading through quicksand. And this is coming from a guy who gobbled up Infinite Jest like it was crack mixed with... more crack.

I'm very familiar with WWII, the V2 rocket, and quite a bit of literary history and theory, but fuck, I did not get that book at all. I'll give it another try sometime.

Rilke was a big influence on Pynchon.

>>3517902
In my experience it was almost impossible to unravel the actual meaning and reason of the book, but at a surface level I found the episodes, prose and characters a bundle of fun with some really beautiful moments. His prose is a lot more readable to me than, say, post-Portrait Joyce or Burroughs.

>>3517902

Maybe I'll try IJ instead. I myself have an MA in literature and know my shit quite a bit, but I eventually gave up on GR because I felt Pynchon was bluffing, emperor's clothes and all.

>>3517902
>>3517924
Infinite Jest is easy, and not that great anyway

>>3517924
Bluffing in what sense? You didn't find his prose or the pure amount of knowledge that he exhibits impressive? You didn't find the humour funny? Or the basic anti-war, pro-love message heartfelt? It's not Finnegans Wake, the substance is right there on the page to be seen by all.

>>3517941
>You didn't find his prose or the pure amount of knowledge that he exhibits impressive?

Amounts of knowledge never impress me, I must admit. Pynchon doesn't know more than any encyclopedia does, or Google, for that matter. No matter how much he knows, that doesn't impress me, sorry.

I did like his prose although when I was reading him, I was too tired to make much sense of it; it flowed well and sounded good, but made no sense to my tired brain. This is one reason why I'd try again with a sober mind.

I systematically hate anti-war political messages because that's just childish and retarded. Same for pro-love. That's like a "pro-air" message. Who's against air or love?

I'm interested in synchronicity, though, but I'm not entirely sure GR does anything impressive with it, unlike John Irving with his Meany novel.

Did any of you that didn't "get" it and gave up, try to read some of his other stuff? Not that it's in any way obligatory, but Mason & Dixon and Against the day are a lot more coherent, and easy to follow, so maybe try those out. Obviously stuff like vineland, inherent vice and The Crying is easier aswell, but also not nearly as good.

>>3517815
IG Farben
Qabalah
Tarot
Teutonic Mythology
Ivan Pavlov
BF Skinner
The White Goddess by Robert Graves

>>3517963
On the other hand, a lot of people consider 'Crying' Pynchon's masterpiece

>>3517841
That kinda reminds me of trainspotting

>>3517815
>What is required knowledge before tackling Gravity's Rainbow? Here's my impression:
A Gravity's Rainbow Companion: Sources and Contexts for Pynchon's Novel by Steven Weisenburger

>>3517976

Yes! Exactly.

I am so glad that other people had trouble with this. I'm reading it currently, on about page 130. It's beautifully complex, every single detail get's it's own story. I'm definitely not going to give up on it, but it does take some patience.

>>3518030

Do you understand the story? Sum it up.

>>3518053
Please don't make me do that. There's sooo fucking much. I'll give a brief simplistic synopsis from my viewpoint but that's it.

Basically theres this dude named Pirate who has the ability to take other's imaginations unto his own mind. He is in the military of course, because of this gift. He also serves with Roger Mexico and pointsman in the white visitation, wish is basically the BRPD for London. Mexico is in love with Jessica and bla bla bla, and Pointsman is an insane pavlovian with a blood lust for glory. Pointsman did experiments on a child named Slothrop who can now somehow detect the bombs about to hit with his penis. Slothrop is an american ladies man now in PISCES I think. He has this chart that perfectly matches up with Mexico the statitician's map of where the bombs have hit. That's without all the extra subplots, and I probably left some shit out.
Sorry for the probably shitty grammar and sentence structure, I'm a little high.

>>3518093
Also if I didn't make it clear, the main plot is them trying to predict where the bombs will fall. At least right now. The subplot with the gimp and the chick who escapes is probably also important.

>>3518093

There's that much story? I don't remember jack shit from any of that! Excelt "Slothrop" because it struck me as a weird fucking name.

Made me interested, might read GR.

>>3518110

I don't think it makes a difference, but I did start using piracetam as I read it. I've also found that I can not read this book as I traditionally would read a book.

Since this seems to be a general Pynchon thread, I figure that I'll ask my question here.

I'm currently reading V. I'm about 160 pages in, just after the chapter where Benny Profane almost fucks the girl on the billiard board, which I thought was a really great scene. The nose job chapter was also amazing. So far I haven't had much difficulty with it, except for Stencil's chapter in Egypt (which threw me for a bit of a loop).

How does Gravity's Rainbow compare to V.? Is it significantly more challenging?

>>3518126

What doesn't make a difference?

>>3518149
My use of piracetam.

>>3518164

What's it?

>>3517815
If you're trying to get something out of reading this, take notes on the concepts. Read it with a notebook/pad on hand and write down questions, plot outline and connections, etc.

Don't see how you expect to get anything out of this book without actually putting work in, especially if you inherently find it difficult.

inb4 >taking notes hurr durr

>>3518175

I read this back when I went to bed at 6 to 8 am and tried to get up at noon. I read it in the afternoon and kept falling asleep.

>>3518190
excuses excuses, read it again. this time take it seriously.

WWHBD

>>3518173
It's a nootropil
>>3518175
I've never really found the need for notes, but I will take that under consideration. I feel as long as I take some time to think about the work after I've read it, that it will sink in sufficiently.

>>3518196

Not excuses, reasons. Any other book would have been poorly read by just the same in such conditions. I do intend to read it seriously soon. Finishing my Plato book first.

>>3517860
Not necessarily, but a big part of the book is the idea of the parabola as an almost holy geometrical expression - gravity's rainbow, a rocket's flightpath, and as such the book is very symmetrical with similar (almost parallel) vignettes in the first half and the second half of the book and toilets do turn up again, in another very awesome crazy vignette

I've read Moby-Dick and House of Leaves; how would you compare these to GR?

>>3518212

Nice; how are these vignettes introduced? I mean, I remember the toilet scene, but not how it came to be. What triggered such madness?

>>3518213
>how would you compare these to GR?
In terms of...?

>>3518221

Anything.

>>3518093
>Pointsman did experiments on a child named Slothrop who can now somehow detect the bombs about to hit with his penis.

That was Jamf, not Pointsman.

By the way, you got one hell of a journey ahead of you still. I'm almost jealous.

>>3518146
V. was sort of like a trial run for GR. GR is more difficult (much more in certain spots), but all around much crazier, more fun, and packed with way more emotions. But don't let it intimidate you, the paranoia and information overload is a big part of it, and if you like V., you'll love GR.

On a side note, the nose job scene was fucking amazing.

>>3518146
>Is it significantly more challenging?

Yeah kinda. V is still pretty hard to make sense of though. Tell us after you finish it if you still consider it easy.

>>3517815
>>having studied literature in a university to know where Pynchon comes from

HAHAHAHA
how to justify pissing away $$$$$$$$$

>>3518242

Actually, I got paid to study.

>not living in America

>>3518233
God damn it, you're right. Pointsman just wants to use him now because of the latter experiments. Hopefully my journey will be a pleasant one.

>>3518220
The toilet scene you referred to was an hallucination by a drugged up Slothrop, IIRC.

>>3518247
>Not getting paid to go to college

America works for us education hungry poor folk.

>>3518251

Thanks. Is Slothrop a child?

>>3518220
The set-ups for most of these vignettes, just like the toilet one are almost non-existent or are basically established in the last bits of the previous vignette. The book flows like an acid trip; a character might think of something at the end of one vignette, the next vignette starts with some reference to said thought and then tells a whole story or plays out a whole scene.

The parallels are basically the reader's responsibility to find or not find; information overload (and paranoia as a result of it) is a big part of GR, as an actual theme in the book but also in the book's execution itself, and as such each reader could concentrate on totally different parts and I particularly enjoyed the parabolic ideals of it.

Also, great fucking thread OP, actually on topic and talking about real literature.

>>3518261
No man, he was when the experiments on him took place. He's now an adult although fairly young.

>>3518261
Nah, a twenty-something. We get a few small glimpses of his childhood, though.

Also, something interesting for everyone ITT who wants more Pynchon: http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays.html , all of Pynchon's uncollected writings: essays, short stories, blurbs, and other miscellanea

Can someone illuminate me as to the role of Tarots in Gravity's Rainbow? I've only read it once, but this aspect must have completely eluded me.

>>3518266
This.
It kind of reminded me of Fear and loathing in a way.

>>3518276
>>3518277

What kind of experiment was this? Is this related to anything real? Like the CIA experiments with remote viewing and such?

>>3518289
It's somewhat like that but actually much more like Burroughs IMO, and H.S.T. was also heavily derivative of Burroughs, creating the similar tones.

>>3518290
More like little albert without the de-conditioning done properly. It was an experiment to see if they could give a baby a boner with loud noises.

>>3518290
it's a definite allusion to MKULTRA. baby Slothrop is conditioned, Pavlovian style, to react to impending destruction with sexual arousal. this gives him a sort of supernatural ability to (unknowingly) detect where V2 rockets will hit London. the blurb describes this as the main plot of the book, but after Part One it quickly loses focus and descends into total madness.

>>3518301
(or at least what appears to be total madness at first glance.)

>>3518299
>an experiment to see if they could give a baby a boner with loud noises.

>>3518310
there's quite a bit of paedo-(/ephebo-)philia in the book, too. it's quite fap-worthy.

>>3518301
No, the little albert experiment is mentioned

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Albert_experiment

>>3518330

Ew... really?

>>3518378
Yeah, Slothrop beats the breaks off some 12 year old pussy at one point.

>>3518393

You gotta be shitting me...

I'm reading on Little Albert. Interesting, though fucked up.

>>3518175
been doing this recently with heavy material.

It's actually mostly steeped in Western esotericism (qabalah, tarot, alchemy. hermeticism) more than anything. Having studied Western esotercism for over a decade I didn't find Gravity's Rainbow to be that difficult of a read.

>>3517969
Does anyone really consider it his "Masterpice"? Really? I mean, it's decent, and even though I didn't find it all that interesting I can see why you would praise it. But to call it his masterpiece is just silly IMO. The effort put into M&D, GR and ATD is mindbuggeling in comparison.

I once read a short story by him called "Entropy" and I utterly missed the point. I was young and didn't even know what "entropy" meant.

Anyone read this and can explain it?

>>3518520
>Having studied Western esotercism...
Give us some texts to start with, i'm pretty interested in this.

>>3518520
What book(s) would you recommend as a good overview of all that stuff?

>>3518544
Pynchon used A.E. Waite's and Gershom Scholem's books.

>>3518550
Interesting, I'll look into those. I've only read work by Crowley and i'm looking to go deeper.

Look up Wouter Haanegraff. also Meister Eckehart

There's also a pretty helpful wikia for each of his books. A cursory search even led me to this:

http://spitfirelist.com/books/honorable01.pdf

So everyone would recommend reading V. before GR?

>>3518811
if you want to "warm up" for GR then the first half of Against the Day should suffice. V is good, just not as good.

For Pynchon lovers: who else do you love?

>>3519070
William Gaddis is in many ways similar to Pynchon

>>3518838
>V is good, just not as good.

Lies! All lies.

>>3519078

Is V about reptilians?

>>3519070
I would guess Joyce since Pynchon's writings is much inspired by Joyce's

>>3519076
>William Gaddis
Where do start with him?

>>3519524
You go get a book of his then open the cover.

>>3519528
Nice. Just say start anywhere, no need to be a cunt to the guy.

>>3519110
it has alligators yes

>>3519524

The Recognitions is his long, difficult magnum opus. If you like Pynchon you'll probably like it, but take notes.

>>3519070
DFW

>>3517815
The ability to repress the natural response of 20 years of mindrape and channel all of that wasted libido into a boundless pedantic masochism.

>>3518175
I'm curious, what would you get out of it? A sense of achievement for "getting" it?

>>3518544
>>3518546
The Golden Dawn - Israel Regardie
The Tree of Life - Israel Regardie
The All and Everything series - GI Gurdjieff
The Rosicrucian Enlightenment - Frances Yates
Corpus Hermetica - Hermes Trismegistus
Gleanings of a Mystic - Max Heindel
The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception - Max Heindel
Initiation Into Hermetics - Franz Bardon
Mystical Qabalah - Dion Fortune
The Gnostic Gospels - Elaine Pagels

My apologies for the tardy response.

>>3519845
Also, A New Model of The Universe by PD Ouspensky.

>>3518242

This forever.

>>3518212
>>3517841

The toilet trip is an inverse parabola of the rocket's flight.

And fucking sound barrier dipshit.

>>3517976

Gravity's rainbow is a secret font of imagery. Transpotting, check. Dr. Strangelove, when the dude rides the bomb, check.

>>3518110

Tyrone Slothrop is an anagram for "Sloth or Entropy." Entropy is a short story by Pine Cone. It's auto-referential.

>>3519726
What would you get out of any good book?

>>3518330

Poor Bianca :(. That Anubis scene.

My personal favourite was the scenes at the Casino Goring.

>>3519900

Oops, my bad. Strangelove preceded GR. I suck.

>>3519701

Nice.

>>3519883

Like I said, I actually MADE money by going to university. I got a grant. Now I got a well-paying job.

>American education
>no longer for the smart, but for the wealthy

>>3519897
>dipshit.

What got you upset?

Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced by the idea that the toilet trip is a reversed rocket trip. Back that ass up.

>>3519905

Nice. Except "Entropy" is ALSO a Pynchon short story. Silly willy.

I'm about finishing my second run through GR and still feel like I've missed at least 50% of what is there. Maybe it will make more sense in ten years or so.

>>3521026

How about this: you get what you bring to it with this sort of book.

>cloud-reading

Read something else. I'm tired of people who read books the way jocks lift weight.

>>3521035
What should I bring, then, oh mighty intellectual, with me upon reading Gravity's Rainbow? And what does "cloud reading" mean? I'd be honored if you taught me how to approach books.

>>3521068

You shouldn't read books the way my stepbrother plays his PS3 games: to get achievements and trophees and whatever just so he can feel good about himself.

Books are also an experience, not just puzzles or information.

Cloud-reading is my own term: it's when you look at clouds and think you see shapes, just with reading. Self-projection, etc.

>>3521081
You still haven't offered any help to him

You've just made another simile that you think is clever

>>3521081
I already know all of that.
Tell me exactly what course of action to take. Clearly I've been doing somehting wrong so far.

>it's when you look at clouds and think you see shapes, just with reading.
That's a poor analogy. Reading is more like watching the sky and seeing clouds but also planes, birds, stars.

>>3521099

He wasn't asking for help. He asked me to define a term, I did. He asked me what he wasn't supposed to do with books, I explained it.

>>3521102
>That's a poor analogy. Reading is more like watching the sky and seeing clouds but also planes, birds, stars.

>that's a poor analogy

The ironing...

>>3521110
>What should I bring, then, oh mighty intellectual, with me upon reading Gravity's Rainbow?

>>3521111
?

>>3521117

You should bring my dick and shove it up your ass, you abysmal moron.

In case you missed it, I asked that very question in the opening post; if I ask the fucking question, why would you ask me the exact same questions I've posited to begin with? I haven't even read the goddam book you piece of shit.

>>3521121
Oh, so you're OP. If you haven't read the book how can you tell what someone has "to bring with" to engage said book? Since you don't know any better, how about not making hasty judgements?

>>3521139

Are you retarded? The only part I developed was general to any and all books, not to GR in particular, since I haven't read it.

le speedrunnin muh pynchon, 33% faster than last year, 53% improved joke learning.possible subtext? 12% duality of man

>>3521147

lol

>>3521146
But you haven't developed anything. Still waiting on some real advice on how to read books, any books. Again, since you just know I've been reading as an achievement so far from the sole fact I went through GR twice surely you have something interesting to share.

>>3521121

>>3521179

Keep waiting, smartass.

>>3521197
Well this is rather disappointing. I was hoping you'd provide some insight.

>>3521216

>implying you give a fuck about anything I have to say

>>3517962 The soldier that kills and rapes a mother in front of her child.

>>3521267 (he is against love).

/lit/ newb here. I read to kill a mockingbird, starship troopers, androids/electric sheep, 1984, brave new world, lord of the flies, then I tried reading this book....too hard.

I fear I may stay a pleb forever...

>>3521289

Starship Troopers is fucking awesome.

Anon, it's not too hard, but it may not be very good, that's all.

You are no pleb.

>>3521018

>not getting the pun of "dipshit"

I ain't mad anon. Cheers. Also, OP I agree with the anon who said you're going about this backwards. Use GR as a platform to learn more, rather than preparing yourself by reading.

>tfw Tchicherine is one letter from the Russian who replaced Trotsky as the Minister of Foreign Affairs in the Soviet Union.

>>3521520
>my face when there's no actual Gerhart von Göll making films with argentinian anarchists

>>3517815
>Would you agree that literature used to be about life and since writers almost exclusively came from universities, literature has become about itself in a sorry and sad cannibalisation of itself accompanied by a dwindling lifeforce?
Not at all. Literature has always been about both life and itself. Look at Horace's Ars Poetica for instance. Loads of amazing writers went to university. Milton, Marlowe both did. Tristram Shandy is a bit like what you're describing in pejorative terms and it's great and it's from the 18th century.

>>3517962

To be fair he made a pretty dodgy research error in Crying.

He claimed that the anticlerical scene of the Jacobean play, were the catholic priest was forced to hold mass using his own blood was am anti-clerical jab at Puritans.

But Puritans were incredibly anti-catholic, anti-mass and anti-clerical.

Did he mess up, or is this some kind of advanced literary technique my plebeian brain can't understand.

>>3521768

He fucked up.

OP here. This thread made me more interested in Pynchon than I was before, up to the point where I'll give him another shot. Thanks.

>>3517815
I've yet to read GR, could some tell me if it's difficult in the sense of Naked Lunch, or more like Ulysses?

>>3524012

I'd assume Ulysses. Naked Lunch isn't "difficult", it's just randomly put together.

>>3517896
>All I remember is that mandalas and the Ouroboros were integral.
No shit, like a quarter of the book focuses on them

How many of you are excited with the news about Bleeding Edge? I can't tell if I want it to have some 9/11 focus or not.

First book I read for pleasure.

Just fucking read it. Took me 70 pages to orient myself with his style, so I restarted. Just read it dude.

Don't be scared by the people who say YOU NEED A PHD IN EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU READ HIS SHIT. It's bullshit.

On the bright side, get through Rainbow, you can read any book.

>>3525970

What's that?

>>3526038
>First book I read for pleasure.

Explain that; I'm genuinely curious.

>>3527485
It's Pynchon's new book. It'll be coming out September 17. I'm hoping it's as elaborate as Gravity's Rainbow.

>>3528233

Tell me something... I only read 150 pages of GR years ago and most of the time I was half asleep, so I probably read right through it and can't remember much. If I reread these pages with a clear mind, will I read a story at all?

Dear OP,

Please stop samefagging this thread.
It had its moment and now it's time to let it die.

Sincerely,
Anon

>>3528249
There is a story, it's just that it's broken up into different little parts. One chapter focuses on one character, then the next changes to another character, and so on. It's never hard to figure out which character is being focused upon though. There are some odd and seemingly random parts, but, in my opinion, they are enjoyable. For example, there's a scene early in the book that talks about a character's ancestor who was instrumental in killing all of the dodos. I'm not sure how it relates to the story, someone else might know, but it is a very memorable scene.

>>3528296

Not samefagging. If you don't like conversations, nobody forces you to read.


>>3528304

Good to know. I think I heard so much about this book that my mind set up some expectations and I quickly assumed I was reading automatic writing. I think I lost my way somewhere early in the book and had no clue what was happening anywhere. I don't remember any characters...

How does GR compare to Moby-Dick?

>>3528365
The first time I read it was like a blur. I didn't understand much of it but I knew I enjoyed what I did. The second time, I went at it slowly, and it stuck with me even more.

Moby-Dick isn't as difficult as Gravity's Rainbow. It's a hell of a lot easier to follow, since there isn't as much jumping around or as many characters to keep track of.

So would anyone argue that M&D rivals or even outdoes GR? I haven't tackled it yet, been wrestling with Joyce for awhile so I can't give an opinion of Mason and Dixon. But still I'm interested since I'm sorta stumped whether to read that next, ATD, or Lot 49.

Also if you want to read something before reading GR I'd recommend reading Slow Learner just to get acquainted with Pynchon before he was at his best.

>>3529559

>Joyce

Read Dubliners, saw nothing special, even the footnotes admit that all the smart shit we assumed he intended were way above his head at the time of writing.

>Joyce confirmed for asslicking retard