/lit/ - Literature

mydick johnson wrote this

"how can thou be smart if thy brain is unable to comprehend the concept of an opinion? thou must be an idiot!"

or another thing he wrote

"how can thou be smart if thy brain is unable to have an opinion of its own? thou must be an idiot!"

pic related, it's mydick johnson

>>3728640
>translations

Into the trash it goes!

Arthur Schopenhauer is wrong. To have an appreciation of great works of literature, one must read the worst of the worst.

>7 western books and one token eastern one.

>>3728663
That's why I'm on 4chan.

>>3728663
this is what retards actually believe

>quoting schopenhauer

lel

“Read, read, read. Read everything -- trash, classics, good and bad, and see how they do it. Just like a carpenter who works as an apprentice and studies the master. Read! You'll absorb it.
Then write. If it's good, you'll find out. If it's not, throw it out of the window.”


― William Faulkner

Anyone got D&E's introduction to philosophy chart?

I just wanna chime in and say the Mahabharata is awesome.

Is the Charles Martin translation of Ovid acceptable?

>>3728640
>odyssey
>not the iliad
>endlessscreaming.jpg

All hail the Great One.

>>3729817
Gatsby and Catcher are modern classics. 1984 is a concept novel by an essayist rather than a novelist. Mockingbird is similarly overrated for it's concepts.

Wallace is overrated too, but perhaps better at novels than Orwell and Lee. Gatsby and Catcher are worth way more than Infinite Jest though.

>>3728650
>he thinks he can read Sanskrit, Homeric Greek, Latin, Old English, and Italian. And he thinks he can do it to a standard where he can fully appreciate literature written in those languages.

>>3729801
you are themost onanistic cunt I have ever seen on the internet.

Well, you fags always brag about how much you read, and a fair amount of it is probably shit which poisons your mind, as the contents of this board make obvious.

>>3729801
>TL;DR

>>3729859
>>>/b/

To illustrate the point listen to some of the masterworks of music, or visit museums showing the masterworks of art. Once you get a fill of those and see whats being produced now, it seems next to obscene.

>>3728640
>MFW I've read all the books on that jpeg and I liked the ones by George R.R. Martin more.
>MFW Game of thrones is destined to be considered a literary classic.
>Mfw you're all just buttmad about the fact that your crappy fantasy novel never got published and you'll never be a considered a brilliant writer so all you can do is shit all over other peoples work
>MFW Game of thrones is better than Chaucer by a fucking mile, but not better than Homer

You know, for somebody who likes philosophy so much, you are pretty close minded ignorants.

>>3729881
this guy gets it.

but you only really need to read maybe three, just three, of the "classic works of literature" to notice the pattern that makes these works great, and then see why shit like Infinite Jest is so subpar.

>>3729892
>MFW Game of thrones is destined to be considered a literary classic.

It won't though, you need approval by the literary aristocracy to get classic status. Being a popular novel doesn't mean anything to them, they have standards.

Why didn't D&E include the Iliad? Is he a pleb?

>>3729881
>doesn't understand abstract art

philistine detected

>>3729914
>Because Herman Melville, J.R.R. Tolkien and H.P. Lovecraft were widely accepted in their time as geniuses.

>>3729904
>>3729881
But people said the same about the Romanticism movement when it was contemporary. But in our time we recognise it as part of the canon. Works from today will become part of the canon, just not fantasy porn like GRRM.

Piers Plowman is unreadable.

>>3729938
the latter two authors are not accepted as geniuses by the literary elite, and I'm not sure about the first one either.

>>3729935
True art requires skill, only once you've mastered the technical aspects of any craft do you have any right to "experiment". See: Pablo Picasso

>>3729914
>Literary Aristocracy

>>3729947
>the latter two authors are not accepted as geniuses by the literary elite
Because they're fantasy and everyone rights them off as childish, trite shit (Tolkien is just that, but he founded a whole fucking genre). And nobody cares about the "literary aristocracy". Critics are meaningless nowadays.

>>3729947
You don't even know what you're talking about.

This thread is stupid.

Why not just read In Search of Lost Time instead?

>>3729953
>You don't know what you're talking about, do you?

I don't see how my being ignorant of everything is relevant.

>>3729967
>Critics are meaningless nowadays.
Only to people who don't realise how susceptible human beings are to marketing.

>>3729947
>literary elite

Who the fuck gives a shit. I mean, seriously.
Just read the books you enjoy reading. It's not that fucking hard.

Why is it so damn difficult to find unabridged versions of eastern classics? It's almost as if the target audience are edgy teenagers rebelling against western tradition by delving into the orient, but endowed with the attention span of a proverbial goldfish.

>>3729947
Is this your first week reading books or something?

this is like music
it took me a while to get off from listening to coldplay
thank you jesus
coldplay not even once

>>3729976
Some of us value literary achievement. Therefore it makes sense to promote the most genius authors over fashionable crap like GRRM.

>>3729967
LotR is no more childish than the Nibelungenlied or The Song of Roland or Beowulf.

>gilgamesh
>highest art in literature
>not just kind of interesting for what it is

gtfo

>>3729976
This is the only good post.

Sage for cancer removal

>>3729978
Nice sitcom delivery on that one.

>>3729986
You will be so embarrassed about posting stuff like that when you're a bit older.

Back on track though, any more recommendation images?

>>3729992
>reflecting on anonymous posts you made in the past

>>3729621
How can you have knowledge of justice without knowing injustice? Beauty without ugliness?

>>3729992
You will be so embarrassed in the future for once believing that people don't intensely enjoy the classics over the pulp. Just because you find the former difficult yourself.

In the time it takes to read 4000 pages you could have a massive orgy instead.

>>3729987
Thank you. Especially since J.R.R. Tolkien was inspired by those works.

>>3729986
Are you trying to say that classic literature wasn't fashionable when it came out?

>>3730000
>orgy
There's a reason why all world empires declined because of sexual decadence, anon.

>>3730006
>Are you trying to say that classic literature wasn't fashionable when it came out?
Are you seriously comparing GRRM to any one of the classics?

>>3730006
No, I'm just saying that GRRM is fashionable crap.

>>3729994

>>3730017
>no Gene Wolfe

0/10

>>3729994
>>3729994

>>3729986
Yeah, but there's a difference between looking into literary recommendations by professional critics to see if you like them or not, and just being a fucking faggot who bases his entire tastes around what other people classify as literary.

And no, I'm not a fan of ASOIAF, or fantasy in general, but with how illiteracy is, I'd rather people read a book with mass appeal about swords and dragons or whatever than nothing at all.

>>3730022
it's a bit out of date. /lit/'s taste is constantly changing.

>>3729986
What's it like being so pretentious? Does it hurt? Is it hard never going to starbucks in favor for "REAL COFFEE" and never listening to the radio because "IT MIGHT TAINT YOU" and only being able to consume things so you can feel slightly better than others because you assume they think you're better than them?

No really, what's that like?

Does it make you feel like your experience as a human is better because you can't enjoy things that are popular, but only the ones that OTHER PEOPLE regard as classics?

>>3730010
Do you think these empires would be any better off if sexual decadence was replaced with reading GRRM's books?

>>3730025
Forgive my ignorance, but what would you describe as maximalism?

will dump my D&E folder

>>3728640

>>3730011
Yes, and it will be remembered as such. You obviously don't read very much if you think it isn't

>I'll be waiting for your well thought out retort

>>3730026
Firstly, you are delving into mind-reading by bringing up the idiotic notion of "genuine taste".

Secondly, illiteracy is probably at the lowest point it's ever been in history.

>>3730037
>pretentious
>making claim to or creating an appearance of (often undeserved) importance or distinction
Learn to use it properly. And stop thinking just because people drink healthier drinks than you and have better literacy than you and ... that they only do these things to feel superior. No, they actually enjoy them. Although you feel resentment towards these healthier people so you mind-read that they only make better choices in order to feel superior to you. It's pathetic, really.

>>3730040
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximalism

>>3730017
>including Fernando Pessoa
10/10, I didn't know /lit/ knows him. I have to spend more time here, I think.

>>3730051
Wow, this is the most pretentious person in the world.

I bet you thought about taking pictures of your shit for a year and then turning it into an avant-gard collection of art photography in b&w.

>If you haven't you certainly are now

>>3730078
lol, we should actually do the math and create a list of alternatives they could've read. tbh i have no problem with people indulging in light, pulpy fiction, but these neverending fantasy series just seem like an enormous waste of valuable time.

>>3730084
He was flavour of the month for a while last year. The board has declined in quality since then, though.

picture dumping guy, do you have D&E's recommended philosophers pic?

>>3730033
>Dezső Kosztolányi
I'm proud a Hungarian muffuca

>>3730104
*a proud

>>3730104
Krasznahorkai is popular here too. Nadas is a hack, though.

This thread in a nutshell:
>Twilight was a literary classic, but none of you plebs read it, it's better than ASOIAF because it was written by James Joyce and my professor at college told me it was great.
>>I disagree because I enjoyed it and Twilight was crap
>No, you ignorant plebeian, only a patrician like myself can appreciate books as good as Twilight by James Joyce because of the literary merit of it and because all of my professors agreed it was a good book
>>Okay, I still like ASOIAF. I think James Joyce is crap and Twilight sucked.
>OMG I can't believe someone as dumb as you can exist in the same world as I do. Don't you understand the amount of genius that went into James Joyce's twilight? He was a master wordsmith with a mind like a steel machine. He was the greatest writer of all time and no one will ever be better at least until the ELITE Literature Hipsters tell me to like someone else and it becomes fashionable in our clique to like widely accepted literary works of art that aren't accessible to heh heh, the plebeians.
>> I still like ASOIAF and I don't think you're any smarter than any other undergraduate just because you like Twilight. I still don't like it.
>Well it's alright that you aren't educated enough to understand and enjoy the same things I do. You'll just never be able to appreciate the rich literary ambrosia that is Twilight by James Joyce.
>>I thought it was gay, and he likes licking farts.

>>3730084
Please stay. Although some faggots (mostly in this thread) try to pretend otherwise, /lit/ really isn't like other boards on 4chan.

>>3730160
To be honest, Tallis is pretty much the only reason I stay on /lit/.

>>3729830
>implying catcher in the rye is any good
>implying catcher is a better read than 1984

>>3730160
yeah it's worse. all the aggression and pretentiousness with none of the self-awareness and humour.

>>3730152
>not understanding that that appeals to authority are usually sensible

>>3730033
Now you're just being hipster, Machado de Assis is very accessible literature, even being a patrician is reading it, then you are a just a bunch of pretentious hipsters who like reading obscure shit for the sake of it.

>>3730186
>recommend some infrequently mentioned authors that you think /lit/ might appreciate
>be called a hipster

the "exit level" thing is just a joke referencing the inane "entry level" meme.

>>3730046
Great D&E

protip #1 for spotting butthurt subjectivist neckbeards: their posts are littered with words like 'pretentious', 'elitist', and 'hipster'

I get the point, but the Mahabharata alone is longer than ASOIAF.

>>3730055
wow, it saddens me how the plebs will continue to remember Quentin when D&E was so obviously the Great Tripfag.

>>3730200
If you are frequently accused of being 'pretentious', 'elitist', and 'hipster' then it probably has more to do with your attitude than the books you read. Just a heads up, mate.

All discussions ends up to be about some people suspecting other people pretending to like some books just because they want to be seen as intellectuals etc.

>>3730216
Don't act like the other side aren't just as bad.

>>3730216
1. some people like classic books that have or will enter the canon
2. some people like crap books that will be forgotten, mostly because these books are marketed better or appeal to crude sensibilities
3. people who like classics point out that pulpy books are bad
4. people who like pulp/crappy books say that people who enjoy classics are only pretending

>>3730224
Well, it's not like /lit/'s resident classicists are not guilty of doing the exact same thing to those who claim to enjoy DFW, Pynchon, Gaddis, etc. Besides, it is totally needless to go and antagonise people talking amongst themselves in their own threads just because they happen to like pulpy books. Just stay out of each other's way and stop turning /lit/ into a battleground. Fantasyfags have just as much right to be here as you.

>>3730101
Which one? I just have the thumbs from the archive.

>>3730203
Agreed.

It's only bad if you genuinely try to prove that what you like is better than what is actually better. You can like whatever you want so long as you aren't delusional about it.

>>3730194
no its exit level cause you kill yourself

>>3730160
>/lit/ really isn't like other boards on 4chan
No, it really is. Even /v/ is similar. The topics are naturally different, but the behavior of the users and even the intellectual level of discussion are nearly the same.
I'm completely serious.

>>3730239
Well I didn't mean that one really. The one I'm talking about was like a guide to philosophy. It had pictures of the books on it.

Also had Althusser* (commie guy) and a guy from wu-tang clan on it

>>3729978
/Be/ the goldfish.

>>3730260
commie guy that killed his wife

>>3730040
Sounds like a bone of the jaw.

>>3730887
>posting in this thread

>>3730040
The opposite of minimalism.

>It's like literary vomit

fuck

>>3730060
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup isn't a very good Roguelike. It's too easy, and there's no challenge or thinking really involved in trying to win the game. Why wouldn't the creator of that image just recommend NetHack?

>>3731584
Compared to the shit most kids play today >>3731584
DCSS is fucking chess tier.

>>3731591
Yes, but why recommend it as the "better alternative" when there are even better ones just as available?

Analogy: If you have a plate containing a good steak/well-prepared-meal-of-your-choice and a 2 week old McDonald's cheeseburger, why would you recommend the cheeseburger?

>>3730239
you just posted a thumbnail
why

>>3729859
comma splices everywhere

>>3731659
Try to read Proust.

>>3731659
Not that guy but I've noticed English speakers use less commas than Spanish speakers.

>>3729970
it's relevant because you're attempting to speak with authority about something. You cannot simply hide behind socrates' veil while making baseless assumptions.

>>3729995
>running blindly into the future without understanding why or what you've done
enjoy your constant mistakes

>>3729999
I don't see that idea implicit in his post. Where'd you get that from?

are both fantastic f****** rider read The Dark Tower and suck my c also a song of Ice and Fire is pretty god damn good even though I want to kill George RR Martin that slow lazy fat f*** and Stephen King including himself in the Dark Tower with the biggest f****** hack move ever in existence

>>3731693
whoa

>>3731693

10/10

laughed out loud

What is the problem this board has with murakami and pkd? They're my favorite writers.

>tfw read all of the bottom except 2
smug.jpg

all the local girls on okcupid that list reading as an activity also love the tv series game of thrones which i think is the only reason i would read any of them

>>3731914
>why don't girls read classic literature
maybe because it's boring to them

>>3731920
i can only imagine reading boring prose for 4k pages would be boring too though

i have transcended prose and the classics i only digest the most refinèd of poetry now

except ovid he is my nigga

>>3730062
As much as these things annoy me, the last exchange of that image is amusing.

>>3731920
Oh, bingo. There's a couple classes of girls. You've got one which reads girl porn and Twilight, and the such. The other reads Ginsberg, Vonnegut, Plath, and Atwood (so decent stuff). The third doesn't read. Except girl porn. Most do? This is my totally myopic view given to me by the girls I've fucked or really tried to fuck.

>>3729817
Hey buddy I fixed that for ya. Free of charge.

>>3729419
>I can't get over the fact that western civilization is objectively better than that of any others.
>I'll just go on /lit/ and claim "white privlege" when I'm butthurt and claim how everyone should pander to my retarded feelings.

>>3732048
The seems a matter of culturally-imbued preferences, and languages spoken. This goes for both you, and the person you replied to.

>>3729419
>Homer and Gilgamesh are western
You're part of the problem.

I've never watched GoT or read the books but are they really that bad or is it just hate because they're popular?

Like are they Rowling level? That's what you guys make them sound like.

>>3729848
Dedicate my life to it. What else do I have to do

Wasn't Schopenhauer like the typical /r9k/ women hating /v/irgin of that day and age?

Why does anyone care what he thinks?

>>3730078
>shitting on patrick rothfuss

>>3732136
They read like historical fiction. Most of the story is loosely based on the War of the Roses, with peppered bits of European and Asian history thrown in. It's the best-written fantasy series by far.

>>3732202
>[GoT is] the best-written fantasy series by far.

I cringe. I cringe because you're right. When will the fantasy genre get its own version PKD or LeGuin or Delany? When can fantasy authors not only move past LotR's influence but ALSO be good literary works on their own merit?

>>3732182
Patrick Rothfuss is a lackluster storyteller. The Name of the Wind was the biggest letdown I've ever read

>>3732221
>When can fantasy authors not only move past LotR's influence but ALSO be good literary works on their own merit?
Read more, fucktard.

>>3732221
Well, maybe the first one could stand alone as a good literary work, the series total however meanders a little bit too much at this point.

>ALSO be good literary works

You know, I haven't read Mervyn Peake but apparently his prose is outstanding. Can't speak for his storytelling either.

Anybody here read Titus Groan?

>>3732229
Read more of what? ASoIAF? Harry Potter? Wheel of Time? What? What fantasy work has taken strides to improve the literary merit of its genre?

>>3732202
It's not. LotR is but GoT is not even close to the top of the list.

>>3732221
There's some, just not really within the most visible and obvious strain of fantasy. (although tbf it does also kind of depend on whether you count border cases as fantasy or SF)

>>3732223
Agreed, Pat Rothfuss is terrible.

>>3732229
Agreed.

>>3732230
Gormenghast is very very good at what it is but what it is is very strange and, I think, limited. It is extremely stylistically effective, though, and definitely better written than GoT.

>>3732249
Read more fantasy? Especially fantasy that was written before 1977? Or at least be aware of it? I don't mean this as an insult, but you don't know anything about fantasy. It's nothing wrong; if anything you should be proud of it; but you don't know anything about fantasy. You don't know what the genre is and that's why we're telling you to read more. It's a little hard to have a conversation about a genre if you don't know the shape of it.

I mean, a conversation about books that improve the genre, off the top of my head, would start by talking about the earliest examples of fantasy, with Dunsany, Morris, and George MacDonald, and other people writing weird shit like Mervyn Peake and ER Eddison, and talk about sword and sorcery and its impact and Michael Moorcock taking sword and sorcery and screwing with it with Elric and (especially) M John Harrison taking the same genre and screwing with it in Viriconium, which is amazing, and then in the post-New Wave period a lot of authors coming in on the borderline of fantasy and science fiction and writing some amazing fiction that absolutely holds up today - your Roger Zelazny, John Crowley (who's now considered 'literary fiction' rather than fantasy), RA Lafferty (perhaps the most underappreciated American author), Gene Wolfe, Michael Bishop, Patricia McKillip, and also the power trio of James Blaylock / Tim Powers / KW Jeter writing weird historical fiction and also accidentally inventing steampunk. You have people writing more contemporary fiction like Charles De Lint, Lisa Goldstein, Peter S Beagle. And then getting into the present day you have people writing much more consciously literary referential fiction, like Cat Valente, Theodora Goss, and a myriad of others who aren't my cup of tea but they're certainly trying to push the limits of the genre. And there's many more.

So, I mean, there are some books that are or have been trying to push the literary merits of the genre. Hope that helps.

>Beowulf
>masterpiece

lel

>>3732249
All of the ones you mentioned.

>>3732274
You sure seem to be enthusiastic about fairy tales.

ITT: Opinions

>>3732136
>Rowling level

There's a difference. JK Rowling writes books for children. She knows it, the readers know it.
George R Martin also writes books for children, but it seems neither he nor the readers know it.

>>3732274
>recommends to stay away from fantasy written less than a third of a century ago
>still won't admit the genre is broken

I like how all of you are forgetting that all fiction to some degree or another is fantasy. Game of Thrones is genre fiction, if you don't like the genre, then why do you have such a raging hard on for talking about how much you hate it?

I don't see any threads on /lit/ about the joy luck club or memoirs of a geisha or any other Asian ladies book, and the reason for that is because it's not anything important right now. Game of Thrones is going to be a literary classic series, because it causes so much controversy.

Do you guys remember how Joyce's Ulysses was super controversial when it came out among the book nerds?

Well You probably don't since you aren't over a hundred years old, if you are then it must have been hard learning how to use the internet old timer so I commend you for reading this.

Well, right now all you book nerds are getting so mad about Game of Thrones, because it's really good, and it scares you that good books can be read by people who aren't in your book nerd club and make you feel less smart because it reminds you that anyone can read the same books you do.

And that really freaks you book nerds out a lot. I could pick up Finnegan's wake and read it, but not enjoy it because it's boring as all fuck. But at the same time I could get a copy of Watership down and see it as a better book.

The point being, you aren't special because you can read archaic language, and recognize literary techniques or anything else, if you're defending something that is subjective. Yes I've seen all the charts in this thread about how subjectivity about books is somehow like arguing with a doctor about cancer, that's stupid. Fiction is a medium of entertainment. You can't deny that.

Game of Thrones is going to be considered literary gold in 50 years, because of your constant arguing and the simple fact that they are good books.

now please let this thread die, and fight the urge to make a stupid counter-argument

>>3732378
>now please let this thread die
I agree, it just hit rock bottom with your post

>>3732378
>the reason for that is because it's not anything important right now
Okay, sure.
>Game of Thrones is going to be a literary classic series, because it causes so much controversy.
Well, no. It's not going to be a literary classic series because it's not "literature" in the snobbish, high-art sense of the word. It's hardly causing controversy, either. We just like to complain about things, that's not the same as being a controversial work.

>>3732382
What a well thought out counter argument.

This is like women talking, this thread is pointless.

>>3730017
>Demi-god tier
>Demon tier after that
Typical /v/ mindset, it's either good or shit

>>3730186
>>3730194
Fucking retards, exit-level refers to killing yourself. All the lit on that pic is depressing lit

>>3729628
Implying Asoiaf is bad

>>3732378
>Game of Thrones is going to be a literary classic series, because it causes so much controversy

What controversy does it cause?

>>3732421
Is this the first time you've ever been on /lit/?

The buttmad those books cause on this board is enough to engulf the world in a malestrom of english lit undergrad tears.

That should be enough reason to like asoiaf.

>>3732416
>Terrible, uninspired prose littered with silly archaisms and made up words
>Schizophrenic plot progression. GRRM doesn't even know where he's going
>Attempts to distract from what is really a run-of-the mill fantasy world with random moments of depravity and "lel you didn't see that coming" deaths
>misogynistic as fuck

the only arguments I've ever seen in favor of ASOIAF are usually along the lines of "I like it therefore it's good" and "Well I know he's not a good writer, but he's not trying to be"

>>3732431
You remind me of an idiot.

>>3732431
It causes 'buttmad' because it's a bad book that's wildly popular

I guess 50 Shades is going to be a literary classic too?

>>3732433
You are so stupid, you don't even know how stupid you are.

>Terrible, uninspired prose littered with silly archaisms and made up words
Because no author has ever made up words ever.
>Schizophrenic plot progression. GRRM doesn't even know where he's going
More like, you can't predict the story as easily as you usually can with the boring shit you usually read so it makes you feel uncomfortable.
>Attempts to distract from what is really a run-of-the mill fantasy world with random moments of depravity and "lel you didn't see that coming" deaths
See comment above, especially since you're too dense to enjoy a story that isn't cookie cutter bullshit.
>misogynistic as fuck
You haven't actually read the books have you?

>>3732435
this genration's wuthering heights tbh

>>3732433
>Terrible, uninspired prose littered with silly archaisms and made up words
At times bad, more often unrewarding, with glimpses of talent. But calling it terrible is simply hyperbole.
Explain how the archaisms are silly, and how 'made up words' are inherently a bad thing.

>Schizophrenic plot progression. GRRM doesn't even know where he's going
For the first three novels at least, the plot progression was terrific, probably most of all because Martin forgoes typical plot structure and opts for a more decentralized, unravelled tapestry. I won't deny that I'm slightly worried about what he's done in the last two books, but calling it schizophrenic doesn't even mean anything.

>Attempts to distract from what is really a run-of-the mill fantasy world
This makes me think you haven't even read the series. It isn't even meant to be much of a fantasy world in the typical sense, but more of a real world-inspired setting.

>with random moments of depravity and "lel you didn't see that coming" deaths
>Not realizing that's all in concert with Martin's intentionally cruel world and his themes of whim, the fragility of fortunes, and people being subject to their stations/forces greater than themselves.

>misogynistic as fuck
And? That should be more than obvious. It was a misogynistic, or at least patriarchal world that Martin bases his off.

>the only arguments I've ever seen in favor of ASOIAF are usually along the lines of "I like it therefore it's good" and "Well I know he's not a good writer, but he's not trying to be"
I have never heard any of those, and I have seen plenty of legitimate positive arguments. And the only arguments I have seen against asoiaf are the same rehashed, meaningless phrases like 'soap opera shit writing lol'. I'll admit, your's are a little more imaginative.

>>3732452
I should have added that the world of asoiaf is cruel against women, not the author's approach to his female characters, which is quite the opposite.

>>3732435
There isn't only one level of bad you know. There's like, 50 shades of bad.

>>3732435
It's a good book, but that doesn't matter because as long as it's widely popular then /lit/ needs to cry over it.
Actually comparing it to 50 shades is another of those automatically played cards that people who whinge about Game of Thrones always play.

>"do what some old white man says", op.

Nah fuck you I'll read what I like.

>>3732146
Because he's one of the most intelligent people to have ever lived. You, on the other hand, are a rube.

>>3732221
Le Guin has written fantasy, numbnuts.

>>3732495
Why does the person's gender, race and age seem to matter in your decision?

>>3732274
Lots of great suggestions in this post.

>>3732408
The chart is not ranking them in order of quality.

>>3729848
>And to understand and appreciate the bible you need to learn armenian

Who's the idiot really? Stop trolling.

>>3730017
>This is shit and every time it gets posted it gets shot down by /lit/

>>3728649
>>>3732352
>>3732352
Opinios is the new subjetivism

>>3732362
0/10

>>3732433
I've never found those "moments of depravity" to be ridiculous or over-the-top. Human history is fraught with violence, and most of the power-hungry characters in the series behave just as ruthlessly as humans always have.

Westeros may not be a particularly unique fantasy world, but Martin has a really effective way of breathing life into it through political intrigue, subtle hints in dialogue and bringing characters full circle. He can "populate" Westeros which I just don't see other authors doing well in other fantasy.

>>3732648
you didn't find that part where that dude wants the army and all their horses to rape his sister even just a little over-the-top?

It's one thing writing about depravity and immorality, but it's quite clear that Martin himself is a sicko and that's why he finds it so easy

My problem is that the overly violent or sexual sections are just written badly. There's no sense of brutality or sexuality to them.

>>3732495
>"do what some young black woman says"

Why does this make it more valid?

>>3730017
>Gaia and Titan Tiers are all 20th century writers
lel

>>3730078
>>3730078
>>3730078

>>3730033
>The Leopard
Brilliant book. Anyone seen the Visconti film? Just got the DVD, might watch it this weekend.

>>3731932
>i have transcended prose
stay pleb

>>3732274
>Tim Powers
good shit

>>3728640
>fix'd

>>3732769
>fix'd

but you didn't fix it silly anon, it's worse than before

>>3732433
The number of male deaths and abuse outpaces that of female deaths and abuse depicted in that series 10:1 and yet "It is misogynistic".

>implying only feminists can write about rape
>Implying rape is not a commonly used tool of war
>implying the books are about something else

You are the problem. Stay on Tumblr next time.

>>3733027
b-but m-muh triggers...

>>3733027

Okay, so its sexist as fuck, not misogynistic. It is still terrible writing, and awful fantasy. It's just second rate medieval drama. Most of the fantastic elements are basically plot devices. Melisandre birthing people who kill others, and do nothing elsethe dragons grow up, and the first significant thing they do, run off in different directions, and grant power to whoever controls them, they are no more than tools

>>3732378
I like how all of you are forgetting that all transportation to some degree or another is skateboarding.

>>3732445
good authors make up words to describe new things (or old things in a different way) not to describe a different world they created that's full of dragons and druids

>>3729998
But surely concepts don't need their absolutes as foundations if they're opinions based on aesthetics?

>>3733147
Explain how you think the books are sexist when 99% of the deaths, depravity and abuses are suffered by men and most of the characters with the greatest social advantages are women? Because it takes place in a feudal society that is imagined to have had stricter, survival based gender roles rather than those promoted by feminism and postmodernism which encourage young women to believe they are actually cats and that video game character designs are oppression?

>>3733147
Why are you so determined to dislike the series? Can you name a better medieval drama? If you had even read the books, you might have gathered that it seems no one can control the dragons, or that Dany at least has a difficult time of it. Should they have point of view chapters in your opinion? They have personalities that are alluded to on occasion, isn't that enough?
I'd be the last guy to praise ASOIAF as great literature but the fact is that they are well written and enjoyable books.

I don't get why /lit/ is so divided when it comes to GRRM and the ASOIAF series.

No one in their right mind compares the series to classic literature. The series is purely genre fiction, and it doesn’t try to be anything more. Those of you arguing for either side seriously need to re-evaluate how you view fiction - in any form.

The problem is (without generalising too much) genre fiction on this board is looked at like the bubonic plague or something. Genre fiction serves only one purpose, and that is to entertain the reader. I can tell you right now, I'd rather read the ASOIAF series, or something from PKD over contemporary writers who have the nerve to be considered part of the sphere of 'literature' - like Tao Lin.

You have to ask yourself, what you're reading for. If you're looking for entertainment, then you should have no qualms with genre fiction; it shouldn't feel like a personal attack.

Fundamentally, literature and genre fiction serve the same purpose at its core. It's the art of storytelling. If you can’t agree on that simple point, I don’t think any of the above will make much sense to you.

>>3732653
>Implying psychopaths don't make the best novelists.

I don't like ASoIaF's writing - it is inconsistent, as if he was reading IM Banks and JRR Tolkien while typing different parts.

>>3733185
b-b-but literary fiction is boring and doesn't have dragons or elf tits or rollicking good japes and wench rapes

>>3733207
there is hardly any rape in ASOIAF, why do people flip their shit over it

>>3733185
This is the best and most sensible post on the entire internet.

>>3733185

Have you ever tried to talk about Kanye West with someone who is a self-professed classical fan?

That's essentially what talking about sci-fi/fantasy is like on this board.

Lots of snobbery, misplaced pride, elitism, sticks-stuck-in-sphincters &c.

>>3733210
pls go count the rapes and references to rape in the series and get back to us

>>3733225
references to rape != actual rape scene
fucking dumbass

>>3732769
Saved, and I'm going to use this to troll the shit out of this board

>>3733227

Are you daft?
What does it matter whether it's an actual rape scene being depicted, a threat of rape, characters talking about rape etc.?
It all adds to the general sense of misogyny pervading the work.
What happens if you're a woman in Westeros? You gon' get raped.
Except the nobles of course, incest and pedophilia are more to their tastes.

>>3733352
life must be really hard when you can't overcome your reactionary aversion to the portrayal of nasty things.

>>3729881

Music today is shit, I was born in the wrong generashiun!!

>>3733352
Get the fuck out. Main female characters include a courageous warrior, an altruistic conqueror, an assassin, and a young princess who risks her life so that a princess might accede to the throne instead of her younger brother. Asha is the only main character who is ever raped, and even that's debatable. Men are beheaded, castrated and flayed in the books. You're simply seeing misogyny where there is none.

>>3733361
There's no aversion to the portrayal of nasty things on my part.
The question is, to what end are they being portrayed?
What do you find interesting about it?
It seems to me to be just gratuitous violence and depravity. There's no point. No insight into the human condition (because they're not humans)

>>3733387
>Asha is the only main character who is ever raped

wut? when?

>>3733387

>>3729947
tolkien is actually. most academics could give a shit about the canon.

>>3733400
>The question is, to what end are they being portrayed?

To make a point about what life would really be like for characters in the loosely mediaeval-feudal settings that most fantasy books portray.

>What do you find interesting about it?

The subversion of cookie-cutter fantasy where characters are usually unrealistically protected from the horrible things that would logically be the result of that type of society.

>It seems to me to be just gratuitous violence and depravity.

It's occasionally gratuitous, but not uniformly.

>No insight into the human condition (because they're not humans)

I completely disagree. I think ASOIAF does a great job at portraying the nuances and psychological implications of existing in one of these brutal fantasy worlds. Martin's women characters are given much fairer representations and roles than women are afforded in any other fantasy book. They have their own motivations, their own strengths, their own flaws -- they're human, basically. There are exceptions, of course, but I chalk that up to the untenably large cast rather than prejudices on Martin's part. I've never read any other genre fiction with as many unique and memorable characters as ASOIAF.

>>3733401
Her childhood friend, I forget his name, forces himself on her, and she struggles for a bit, then relents. It's implied that she wanted the dick though.
>>3733403
This is just so much bullshit written by an angry feminist. Many eastern cultures are depicted, arguably more cultured and developed than Westeros. Of course we dislike Sansa's vanity and obsession with banal things. It baffles me that whoever wrote this thinks that is sexist.
On Catelyn - women are meant to be wives and mothers. Did we miss the part where she travels across half the country to warn Ned of the danger he's in, and kidnaps a Lannister? Are all her actions misogynist because they are born of her desire to protect her family.
I can't go on. Whoever wrote that is startlingly ignorant.

>>3733403

>Why doesn't a medieval fantasy world resemble my womens studies classrooms?

lol

>>3733436
Oh, you!

>>3729928
>Because the Odyssey is better

>>3733468
What can I say? Do you concede that it's ridiculous to suggest that gurm hates women, or that his fiction encourages marginalization of women or depicts women in a negative light?

I'm not even going to read this shit thread. If you haven't read a text, how are you going to determine if it's bad or not? You refer to some else's opinion? Sounds like brainwashing.

>>3733403
what the shit dude
this is fiction
only morons try to interpret fiction from a feminist/racist point of view

>>3732497
Says the rube.

>>3730239
>Implying this is not the single worst ranking and selection of philosophers in the world
This guy is seriously the biggest dick on the planet.
>Derrida top-tier
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHA

>>3729817
But Gatsby is better than Infinite Jest.

>>3733352
You are fucking retarded. There is no use trying to reason with you beyond ad hominems attack because you jezebots/tumblrioanos cannot reason. You think an author writing about rape is oppression. Only the guillotine can save you.

>>3732089
>Implying Turkey isn't western
You're supid

>>3733511
The funny part is George R.R. Martin used to consider himself a feminist, even married one, he only doesn't identify as one today because the bat shit female supremacist nutjobs took over the movement (and now spend their time circle-jerking on Tumblr about how being fat is healthy and a seductive glance is rape).

>>3728640
>implying A Song of Ice and Fire is bad reading

>>3733664
ASoIaF has the literary depth of The Twilight Saga.

>>3733701

Says the guy who has not read it outside of a blurb on Wikipedia

>>3733711
>lolz it has foreshadowing; masterpiece of the written word

There is nothing to take away from that story beyond entertainment.

>>3733701
>b-b-but muh political intrigue
>muh epic swordfights

>>3730068
>literary techniques such as stream of consciousnesses

ooOOooOoOoOo so amazing

Anyway yes, some books may have more advanced writing techniques than others, but that of course doesn't mean they are decidedly better books.

>>3732653
You obviously have only watched the show.

>>3733740
I haven't watched the show a single time actually

>>3733753
0/10

>>3732653

>where that dude wants the army and all their horses to rape his sister even just a little over-the-top?

You are completely misrepresenting that line and you know it. All Viserys meant with that was that he doesn't give a shit what they do to her as long as it results in him getting an army. Such a thought is hardly "over-the-top" depravity.

>>3733147
>Melisandre
>Do nothing else

But birthing shadow babies is not the only thing she does. She is intent on finding the reincarnation of Azor Ahai to save everyone from whatever doom they're going to face in the future. She actually cares a lot for the bigger picture, than the lords and ladies with their petty wars.

The dragons are actually hilarious. Just when you think they can be controlled for the end game, they go berserk and kill people instead. If you think they're tools, they could be the tool for Dany's downfall.

>>3733767
I agree to this. It was just a line to express Viserys' utter intent and maybe the craziness of the Targeryan line, and nothing more.

>>3730060
/lit/ doesnt like dark souls?

>keep using Schopenhauer
>not using Seneca, who Schopenhauer more or less quoted

>>3733822
Demon's Souls is better, Dark Souls is just more well-received because it was well-publicized and multi-platform, but it other than its huge increase in items and equipment, and a larger map, it is the worse game. The tight level design, the art design, the enemies, etc. everything that made Demon's Souls a classic was either untouched or made diluted. I speak for /lit/.

>>3728640

>>3730060

Dark Souls is better than all of the games below it (and to the left of it).

>>3733166

Sexism hurts men too. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand feminism.

>>3733178

I read all the books to date, and I've only enjoyed Tyrion's story arc as a whole. Arya next, but she gets boring in between. All the other characters have been interesting in patches.

>>3733782
I forgot his name, but he has a horn that can control dragons and is going for them.

>>3732510
>>And to understand and appreciate the bible you need to learn armenian
>armenian

>>3733898
'...Until the moment you're old and decrepit, finding yourself with absolutely no meaningful knowledge whatsoever, in order to pass something to the next generation.'

-Anon.

>>3730017
Corrected version.

I've wasted all this month reading the roleplaying corebook of the world of darkness and vampire the requiem

u mad?

>>3735312

How is that wasted?

>>3735314
i'm just playing with OP's crappy post.

IMO i love this, i'm planning to be a good and real storyteller and not someone who only makes connections between rolls with a poorly embellished and generic plot

>>3730104
glad I'm not the only one on /lit/ who is

>>3730025
wtf, Underworld is not an example of maximalism. It's like you guys think "maximalism" means "long book."

>>3735192
That's Euron/Crow's Eye. Maybe he can, but I'm still one of those who believe that the dragons would cause harm instead of good.

>>3735321
>"okay, so he may not be the best writer b-b-but he's a fantastic storyteller"

Books are for nerds

>>3732145
Life.

>>3735297
that's a bit old already
where's Daniil Kharms?
I mean that chapter is over but still

>>3736126
this

>>3736834
didn't iranman ask for another book? did he ever get it?

>>3730101

>>3730239

>>3737362
>hegel
>intermediate

>>3737362
Wow, what a shitty picture.

>>3737449
I don't know man, "beginners" and "avanced beginners" look pretty good.

>>3737362
best worst picture of all time

>>3737371
>Hekotormos

>>3737371
>Plato not in god tier
>making tier lists of philosophers
Why do plebs act like they know something about philosophy?

>>3737492
>complaining about someone making tier lists of philosophers
>at the same time complaining about the tier of one philosopher in a tier list of philosophers and in effect joining in the making of tier lists of philosophers

>>3730065
>this is what objective moralists actually believe

>>3738013
Who said anything about 'objective' fucking idiot?

>lern2 D&E

>>3730017
>camus god tier
>not sartre

>>3737371
>Russell in mid tier

Do you even logic?