/lit/ - Literature

13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.

14 And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife.

15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee.

16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.

18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

>>3763451
That's an interesting parshah and all, but what's your point?

>>3763469
This guy is posting one chapter from the bible every day as part of his penitence.

>>3763475
How about he do teshuvah instead? This isn't accomplishing anything. He's just being retarded. Jew living in Israel, by the way.

>>3763479
Must be nonjewish. Otherwise he'd understand teshuva aka penitence that's actually reflective and productive

>>3763475
I have a feeling this is the same bastard I met a while ago that claimed philosophy was the work of the devil and proceeded to post a summary of the book of Job. I called him a dumbass and told him several theologians such as Thomas Aquineas were philosophers who argued for the faith, then the jerk said I was destined for hell. I really hope I wasn't the cause for this...

>>3763479
Yo OP. Do teshuvah. Sins against God requires teshuvah. If you committed a sin against man, then you need to get his (or her) forgiveness. Posting verses from the Bible isn't going to help you get penitence.

>>3763479
>>3763485
>>3763487
He's christian

>>3763487
There's a whole process for this shit and it doesn't involve telling some cunt in a box what you did wrong or posting the Bible on some random internet messageboard.

HaGoy HaTipeshim.

>>3763491
And, it doesn't make his form of pertinence any more useful just because he's Christian?

>>3763488
Protestants really are the worst.

>>3763479
>Jew

I'll pray for your soul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JS_BLiRDXc

seraphim rose was pretty cool.


Christianity is a mental delusion though, sage theist threads.

>>3763498
No, but it makes him 100x more of a faggot

>>3763502
I should be praying for your soul with this borderline pagan shit. Once again, you're not going to be forgiven for your sins because you say sorry to a guy in the box or you do what OP is doing. It requires actual regret, forsaking of the sin, confession through prayer, and a whole load of other shit. It isn't magically tossed away and it takes time to repay for something you've done wrong.

>>3763515
Is that what nonsense Satan teaches his children to blather?

>>3763523
No, it's what our sages taught us.

>>3763499
>implying Protestants are like that
C'mon man. Get real.

>>3763525
Your father the devil abode not in truth, neither do his emissaries which guide you.

>>3763523
Go away Calvin, no one wants you here.

>>3763527
Evangelicals? I don't know at this point.

>>3763528
Chazal has more authority than Jesus will ever have.

shut up pussies
believing that god exists is enough for me to get into the highest ranks of heaven, there's no need to succumb to your religious faggot zealotry

>>3763515
How are YOUR sins forgiven?

They're put upon a sacrifice. A sacrifice at the temple.

Where is your temple? It was burnt to the ground by the Romans. So where does your new philosophy of regret come from? They're actually more new than the teachings of Jesus.
Sorry to break the news to you.

>>3763532
Well, many who fall under being Protestant do hold to stupid teachings I guess. However not all are this way. It's like Kierkegaard said, being Christian by birth and tradition do not make one a Christian.

>>3763532
>Chazal has more authority than Jesus will ever have.

Hell awaits, Jewish dog, and you will be without excuse.

>>3763538
It says in Hosea 6:6 "'Lovingkindness I desire, not sacrifice." Sacrifice was a tool for us to do repentance, it isn't the ends... it was only a means. Of course your knowledge on Judaism is about as well rounded as a square.

>>3763540
>petty threats
TOP LEL. No reason.

>>3763544
Thanks for cherry picking, my Jewish friend.

For desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Doesn't sound like God said that. No it sounds like a prophet wrote that.

Your law still follows you, even without a temple. You may either die by the law, or live in God under grace.

>>3763548
The lost cannot be reasoned with.

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

i admittedly know shit about religion but what's going on in here

you're all abrahamic sluts anyway so what's important about the distinctions

>>3763553
Whatever the Prophets wrote was cannonized by the Men of the Great Assembly because what they said completely reflected what Torah described.

>ignorant Christian who hasn't a clue about anything detected
You do know pretty much all Christians accept the Tanakh as canon, right?

>>3763554
You're not reasoning though. Tell me by what right did Jesus have to claim that we can abandon G-d's law?

>>3763559
>they
They as in the prophets.

>>3763562
>You're not reasoning though. Tell me by what right did Jesus have to claim that we can abandon G-d's law?

1. The law did not pass away. Mt. 5:18

2. His authority as God.

>>3763569
>a man can be God
That's called heresy. "The L-rd He is G-d; there is none else besides Him," (Devarim 4:35). "G-d is not a man," (Bamidbar 23:19).

how excellent im glad we could have this edifying discussion

silly godfags

>>3763559
You're absolutely right, forgiveness and repentance is definitely a part of the Torah. That is why Jesus, the son of God, clarified that it was so, yet also clarified that the Law leads to death.

>>3763575
>"G-d is not a man," (Bamidbar 23:19).

Leaving sentences incomplete are we? "God is not a man, that he should lie." God does not possess the sinful propensities of fallen man.

>>3763580
He didn't clarify shit. He didn't get his authority from anywhere. JC pulled it out of his ass. Kind of like how Joseph Smith clarified that Jesus went to America, right? Ridiculous nonsense. Christianity has no basis in basic Jewish belief. It's some fringe pagan rooted system with Jewish decorations. It completely over throws the responsibility of Jews as a community, of the Oneness of G-d, and His halacha.

>>3763575
>"The L-rd He is G-d; there is none else besides Him,"

Also this does not contradict Christ's Godhood. There is only one God.

>>3763587
Jesus Christ pulled his authority out of his ass... because he's God.

Of course it has its roots in Jewish belief. He is the messiah. The Jews listened to him and agreed with him. All Jews believe he was a prophet, and that he preformed miracles. Most think he received his miracles from Satan, but we Christians (which is basically the equivalent of the word nigger when calling someone) rightly recognize that his authority came from God, because he is God.

>>3763582
The entire Torah, each word is true. As our sages have said and as it is said in our Oral Tradition. Furthermore, a man is naturally flawed. Even if a man claims to be G-d, that is not possible. By definition a man is limited, and G-d cannot be limited Himself. This is heresy and borderline idolatry.

>>3763586
>this does not contradict Christ's Godhood
If you believe in the trinity then it does.

>>3763587
but isn't jesus god manifest as a human
shit man someone help me im trying 2 learn over here

>>3763593
>because he's God
No proof and it certainly doesn't fall in line with Jewish belief. Everything the New Testament says is basically a contradiction of the Torah. Because the New Testament claims to build itself on top of Torah, it must follow in line with its beliefs. A halachic work today cannot contradict what our sages have said in the past and just as our sages cannot contradict what their earlier sages had said and canonized and just as those sages and those works cannot contradict Torah.

>All Jews believe he was a prophet, and he performed miracles
Go to any Rabbinic convention and say that. Go to any shul and say that. Read any Jewish commentary and say that.

>Most think he received his miracles from Satan
No we don't.

>>3763596
>The entire Torah, each word is true.

Perhaps this context-less approach is what caused your misunderstandings.

>Even if a man claims to be G-d, that is not possible. By definition a man is limited, and G-d cannot be limited Himself.

The second person of the Trinity was not limited by becoming man as still possessed his divine nature. He remained fully God.

>If you believe in the trinity then it does.

In what way? God is one. There is one divine nature.

>>3763598
And God can't be a human. It's a philosophical contradiction in our terminology. He cannot be a human because we define a human as something limited and flawed. And even if JC was G-d, it still wouldn't work out because the New Testament contradicts Torah. You're not allowed to do that.

cum 2 think of it i really don't see how u could be jewish over christian

christianity makes too much theological sense when extrapolated from the old testament

feel free to stop me i really dont know shit

>>3763603
>perhaps this context-less approach is what caused your misunderstandings
This "context-less approach" isn't context-less, it's P'shat, פשט.

>The second person of the Trinity was not limited by becoming man as still possessed his divine nature. He remained fully God.
First of all, G-d is one. Ever hear of the Shma? It's "Shema Yisrael HaShem Elokaynu HaShem Echod," not "Shema Yisrael HaShem Elokaynu HaShem Shloshah."

"The L-rd He is G-d in heaven above and upon the earth below; there is none else, " (Devarim 4:29). G-d is One and Unique and cannot be apart of some trinity nonsense. Our sages, our Oral Law and Tradition, and basic Midrash explains this fully. This concept of G-d as an entity that is one, infinite, all powerful, et cetera is the most expressed theme in Judaism and Torah. However, you will misinterpret verses and try to bend them to fit your mundane definition of who G-d is, but it does not succeed. You will not profit from it.

>>3763606
Because it doesn't. It directly contradicts the main themes in Torah. That G-d is one, that Jews are bound by contract to G-d's Law. When Christians say something like, "Jesus said, 'What matters is not what goes into your mouth but what comes out,'" I just can't help but think, "Oh wow, you really dropped some mind blowing concepts on there. Is it possible that both matter? Lashon hara is a concept in Judaism, you know?" And yet they don't think gossip is a breaking of a mitzvah in their eyes.

>>3763618
"God is one in the Trinity."

"No he isn't."

We just end up back where I pointed out at the beginning >>3763554

This is a matter that is spiritually discerned.

>>3763623
G-d is a three divine being thing in the holy trinity. You cannot divide Him up like that. He's one, not 3 or 10 or however many.

>>3763604
>It's a philosophical contradiction in our terminology
how so?

>He cannot be a human because we define a human as something limited and flawed
yeah but then god fucked mary and boom there's jesus unflawed as fuck

>And even if JC was G-d, it still wouldn't work out because the New Testament contradicts Torah
well that just seems useless at this point

>>3763620
>That G-d is one
christianity doesnt contradict that though. god can still be one even when the trinity is taken into account. idk about that contract stuff tho

>>3763631
God is one in being and three in person. He is one in being, not divided.

>>3763631
The Trinity believes God is one as well.
God is one, He is three persons.

Also, the Torah does not prevent you from typing the word "God".

>>3763631
Again,
שמע ישראל השם אלכינו השם אחד

>>3763632
>yeah but then god fucked mary and boom there's jesus unflawed as fuck
He's not unflawed if he's human. He is not immortal, he cannot fly, he cannot be everywhere at once. It's like saying an ummovable object and unstopable force can both exist in the same universe. The two premises contradict each other. I'm pretty sure this is basic philosophy.

>well that just seems useless at this point
Useless, Christian doctrine builds itself on top of Torah. It needs to follow in line of Torah to be right, unlike Islam (because they have completely re written it).

>>3763632
No he isn't one. He's 3 separate entities that form this thing called God. it contradicts what we say everyday (the Shema). Pagans used to do this shit back before Jesus to, where they'd have a god be made of ultimate things.

>>3763633
>one in being and three in person
He has to be One in being and One in being. G-d is not a person. It directly contradicts the verse of which פשט clearly shows means what it says. Furthermore, it conflicts basic Jewish philosophy and belief. It's not rooted in the reality and your attempt to vaguely interpret verses this way will not succeed. Why is that? Because G-d knew this would happen. No matter what is written down, someone can misinterpret for their own devices, which is why we have an authoritative Oral Torah, an Oral Law that describes what G-d is and your definition does not fall into it.

>>3763637
>Also, the Torah does not prevent you from typing the word "God".
They don't really believe in or follow the Torah. Their religion is based on the writings of cultist kooks from the earlier centuries A.D.

There can be no Judaism without a Temple, and the Temple was destroyed in the year 70 A.D.

What poses under 'Judaism' today is just syncretic new-age cultistry as imagined in fourth-century Mesopotamia.

>>3763637
He is One, he is not three person. It makes no difference to abstract it into beings and persons. G-d is the One, infinite, all powerful, all knowing God. He is the God of Avraham, Yizchak, and Ya'akov. He is the G-d that commanded us to say the Shema as we rise and as we fall, day by day. To declare his Oneness aloud. We do not declare his three part being anywhere in Torah or the rest of the Tanakh, for he is not a three part being. He is one. Your ideas are alien to any religious Jew of any time.

>>3763660
>there can be no Judaism without a Temple
This is nonsense, exile is part of Judaism. The Temple fell once, it fell again, and it'll be rebuilt one day and we hope as soon as possible. The Temple isn't the center of our ideology or our way of life, it was a tool for us to connect with Hashem.

>>3763637
First of all, I don't have to write "G-d" on the internet. It could just be "God" if I want. Second of all, we're not supposed to write G-d's name down and then throw it away; however, even God is only an English translation of the actual Hebrew equivalent. At the end of the day, it's just reverence towards Him.

>>3763668
>This is nonsense, exile is part of Judaism. The Temple fell once, it fell again, and it'll be rebuilt one day and we hope as soon as possible.
Not really. Without the Temple there can be no Judaism. (Yes, that means that in the interim between the First and Second Temples there was no Judaism either.)

>The Temple isn't the center of our ideology or our way of life
Yes. But it _is_ the center of Judaism as a religion. Religion != 'ideology' or 'way of life'.

> it was a tool for us to connect with Hashem.
Exactly. Religion == 'to connect with the divine'. Without the necessary tool, there can be no connection. Without the connection there can be no religion. Belief, 'ideology', cultural practices -- maybe. Religion -- definitely not.

>>3763660
>There can be no Judaism without a Temple, and the Temple was destroyed in the year 70 A.D.

explain this plz.

>>3763681

why can't they just build a new temple

hopefully jews will be perfected one day when they accept Jesus' teachings and evolve beyond the barbarism of the Old Testament.

>>3763687
Because the final sacrifice for sins (Christ) has taken place and God will not allow himself to be mocked in this manner.

>>3763681
>Not really. Without the Temple there can be no Judaism.
No source for this. On the contrary, I have sources against that statement. Hosea 6:6, Proverbs 21:3, and other statements made in the Tanakh show that the Temple is not the ends to Judaism.

>it is the center of Judaism as a religion
No, G-d is the center of Judaism as a religion.

>Without the necessary tool, there can be no connection.
Again, it's nonsense to think that the only way to connect with HaShem is through the Temple. Various midrashim, and verses from Tanakh expound upon this. Go pick up a Jewish 101 course at a Chabad house or something before you speak again.

>>3763687
Because only Moshiach can do so. We're not allowed to return to Israel, we're in exile.

>>3763690
This guy is an idiot. None of what he says has ever reflected Jewish thought. It's sourceless pagan shit.

>>3763693

How do you explain Isaiah 53, in that it obviously refers to Jesus as the messiah

>>3763675
Or so the Pharisees tell you.

YHWH was said commonly in greeting even during the time of Solomon. Is that throwing His name away?

>>3763687
>why can't they just build a new temple
Christian answer: because there is no need for a temple after Christ, and because Christ foretold the destruction of the temple.

Jewish answer: hurr-durr antisemitism.

The real answer: because modern Judaism has nothing in common with Old-Testament Judaism except the name. They wouldn't know what to do with the Temple or why one is even needed.

>>3763698
This.

>>3763650
>He's not unflawed if he's human.
unflawed in terms of being human. i mean, he is supposed to be the savior of the human race. pretty sure that's his whole thing, being the messiah and whatnot

>It needs to follow in line of Torah to be right
i don't really think that's necessary but fair enuff

and i still don't understand why you think the holy trinity can't be one. eschewing all religion, i believe that god is everything there is - pantheism if you will. i can back that up philosophically. so it doesn't seem so absurd that the holy trinity would operate in the same way only with an added degree of divinity

in fact the idea of there being ONE absolute supreme deity with absolute control known as god doesn't make sense to me in this context. i still dont know what judaism's about but it sounds like your god has no control over his shit, which i find illogical

>>3763698
>Jewish answer: hurr-durr antisemitism.

lol as always.

>>3763692
>Again, it's nonsense to think that the only way to connect with HaShem is through the Temple.
It is in Old-Testament Judaism, by definition of Old-Testament Judaism.

>Various midrashim
This has nothing to do with Old-Testament Judaism

>...and verses from Tanakh
Yeah, nah. Sources, please.

The point is that modern 'Judaism' shares almost nothing with Old-Testament Judaism except the name. It's like claiming that Mormons are 'Christian' because they have the word 'Christ' in their religion's name.

>>3763695
>>3763695
A lot of Jews will say it's Israel that is the suffering servant, but I step back from that. Here's a good video from it (recommended by a friend):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWxamnYgZmY

>>3763696
The Pharisees continue down the line to Solomon to Joshua to Moses. The tetragrammatron today is a holy name that we do not pronounce. Even if it was a practice back then to pronounce His Holy Name (which I doubt), it's not the practice of today. After the incident between Tamar and Amnon, David said, "That's it. Women and men will not be alone together," and thus Yichud has been apart of Judaism for a very long time. We are not a static religion.

>>3763698
>hurr-durr antisemitism
Because we're in exile and the Moshiach hasn't come yet. How about you pick up a fucking book or enter into any Orthodox community and learn instead of shitting out your ass.

>unflawed in terms of being human. i mean, he is supposed to be the savior of the human race. pretty sure that's his whole thing, being the messiah and whatnot
There is no such thing as a perfect chair. This philosophy is a washed out one. There is no single thing that defines what is human. We are simply made in His image and are given attributes that animals do not have. We can reason, and show mercy, and do tons of amazing things. However, as we define a human in our vocabulary cannot be G-d, because G-d is infinite. And even so, there's no such thing as a flawless human being (precisely because there is no pure definition of what being human is). The "flawless human being" is G-d, but He has no body or does anything what we think a human does.

>and i still don't understand why you think the holy trinity can't be one.
Because G-d is one entity, it is not 3 different "persons" that make up a being. That's a useless abstraction. It's no different than the pagan Egyptian trinity of Osiris, Iris and Horus or the Greek trinity. This is nothing new, it's paganism.

>>3763707
>in fact the idea of there being ONE absolute supreme deity with absolute control known as god doesn't make sense to me in this context.
Look, our language can't be contradict itself and yet have ourselves claim that G-d can create such a contradiction in logic.This is the basic critique of the Catholic view of God. Ever hear of the inmovable object and unstoppable force analogy? I recommend you read up on this. Rambam and other Jewish philosophers even point this out.

>>3763715
>Old-Testament Judaism
This isn't Old-Testament Judaism, this is Judaism. The Judaism of today is different from the Judaism in the time of the Chazal or the Judaism in the time of The Men of the Great Assembly. Judaism is an evolving religion and always has been. The Judaism even in the time of the era of Prophets or back in the time of Moses is different from the Judaism during the times of Yaakov, Yitzchak, and even Avraham. That's just the reality of what Judaism is. A religion that is constantly evolving and changing and going through different phases. We don't wait for doomsday for shit to change.

>>3763736
You are making god impotent by limiting him to some nebulous infinity abstraction. By virtue of omnipotence he can assume a finite form...any finite form. He was a bush don't forget

The trinity is a way for humans to speak about something very vague. Jesus is comprehensible.

>>3763736
>We are not a static religion.
So your God is not static either? Either way, you basically just paved the way for Christianity being a possibility. Your religion is not "static" after all.
Interesting.

>>3763754
He was not a bush, first of all. You cannot be infinite and limited at the same time. It's a contradiction in our language (but not G-d's power). Contradictions in our language are things that even G-d cannot succeed. This is, once again, the common critique by philosophers of the Catholic view of G-d.

>>3763736
>it's paganism.
it can't be pagan if it's christian

and it's not really that hard to conceptualize a perfect human (i'm pretty close) but whatever man

i just ate a hot dog

>>3763772
But what we do cannot contradict what was universally accepted in the past. Christianity is a living contradiction of Judaism. G-d is infinite, not static. Christianity could have been Judaism if it had proper authority and said things that did not contradict Torah.

>>3763775
>it can't be pagan if it's christian
That's funny.

>and it's not really that hard to conceptualize a perfect human (i'm pretty close) but whatever man
Okay, define a human. What makes something a human. Let's simplify it. Let's define what a chair is, Plato.

>>3763781
We know humans when we see them. Definitions are for numbers not real things. Plato was fully confused.

Perfect human is free from sin. Simple.

>>3763781
pa·gan
noun/ˈpāgən/
pagans, plural

1. A person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions
2. A non-Christian
3. An adherent of neopaganism
its not pagan

you really don't know what a human is? this is more your responsibility than mine lel but a human is a primate homo sapien thing. they are characterized by looking like humans and acting like humans and doing human things. a perfect human is one who can do these human things perfectly

that wasn't so hard

>>3763791
Dear Pan playing his lute in the woods!

I hope you're a troll and not for real!

>>3763791
>We know humans when we see them.
No we don't. We clearly don't.

>Definitions are for numbers not real things
Are you retarded? Do you not recognize continuum problems?

>>3763795
Heresy in the eyes of Judaism. Paganism in the eyes of Judaism.

>you really don't know what a human is? this is more your responsibility than mine lel but a human is a primate homo sapien thing. they are characterized by looking like humans and acting like humans and doing human things. a perfect human is one who can do these human things perfectly
What's a homosapien? When does one stop being a human? What gene do I lose that makes me stop being a human? Were neanderthals not human?

>that wasn't so hard
No, you completely misunderstood the continuum problem. What the fuck are you doing on /lit/? You need to lurk more and read more philosophy. Go to a CC and take a Phil 101 or something, for goodness sake.

>>3763797
Definitions just replace one word with another, don't take that game too seriously its very limited. I hope you can tell the difference between a chair and a human...if not you should figure it out before thinking about theology imo

>>3763801
Chairs and humans don't experience that continuum problem... at least for us.

>>3763804
So you know the difference without defining either one....go figure

>>3763801

>Perfect human is free from sin

When Adam and Eve were cast from Paradise they made children, and the children because being born of knowlege were born in sin.

Its is famously known that all humans are born in sin.

Jesus is quoted in saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" when the mob asked what to do of Mary.

You best be troll'n.

>>3763808
What's your point? Only Jesus is free from sin cause of theogenesis

>>3763807
We define without realizing it. We say a human is alive and a chair is an inanimate object. However, we start to need to really define when we get closer and closer, especially with species or defining lie. Continuum problems create a need for solid definitions but often enough we don't have a single definitive definition for much. What's a human? Can you define which genes and dna sequence makes a human? Is there any specific trait I can take away that makes someone not human? This isn't a new question.

>>3763800
>Heresy in the eyes of Judaism. Paganism in the eyes of Judaism.
judaism isn't the ultimate religion
or is that what jews believe? idk

its up to you to know what that stuff is. me tutoring you isn't going to change the facts of things

what the fuck am i doing on /lit/? bitch are you kidding i run this board. i've already won philosophy, now i'm playing with theology don't get it twisted

>>3763814
>Judaism isn't the ultimate religion
It's the correct belief system.

>>3763816
Don't you mean orthodoxy?

>>3763779
>Christianity is a living contradiction of Judaism.
Modern Judaism is also a living contradiction of Mosaic Laws and Commandments. The requirement for a Temple is written there in plain and clear language.

>>3763816
>Judaism is the correct belief system.


>implying humans are infallible when it comes to picking their religions
>implying ancient myths are true

this is my favorite joke