/lit/ - Literature

Good Enough. Now what do you think of "one fish, two fish"?

i pity whatever high school teacher has to grade this.

>tyrannical big government liberal detected

10/10

>responding to obvious bait
Okay, I'll bite.

>>4270577
>Orwell, ever an advocate of the irresponsibility that comes with excessive and unchecked liberty
Holy fuck, it's like you don't even know anything about his actual political views. Go read Road to Wigan Pier and then you can pretend you know shit about him.

1984 should be read in the context of his views of Stalin (read Animal Farm, for instance): he didn't thing Stalinism was the sort of socialism we ought to be fighting for, as it really just became the sort of oppressive society socialism was intended to replace.

>>4270577
Him and Huxley only judge their "dystopia" from their own conservative pov. But how are these societies bad if their inhabitants are perfectly happy with them?

Read some of his essays, moran.

>>4270577
>this much polemic and bile
>this little reading comprehension
Holy fuck, it's like I'm reading a statist Ayn Rand.

Give us some more, OP. This shit's comedy gold.

>>4270620
the difference is that in orwell's society the people aren't happy with them

in huxley's society they are and huxley never gives an adequate response to that

>>4270620

It is possible to have a 1984 style society where people are happy. This is unlikely in most western countries as most people in those countries have been fully indoctrinated with anti-state, pro-liberty viewpoints by their state educational institutions - as if their schools actually want to *discourage* them from devoting their lives to serving their country or society. Oh the irony of state-run institutions preaching hatred of the state.

>>4270577
2/10 тролл нардер

>>4270663
>Oh the irony of state-run institutions preaching hatred of the state.
A lot of people thing that Orwell was a conservative or a libertarian. He wasn't. But the reason he's taught in schools is partly that schools think he's a different kind of guy than he really was.

>>4270577
>Strong government good, individuality bad

Go home Marxist Tarzan, there's no Comrade Jane here.

>>4270663
But Anon, isn't the man more important that the state?

>>4270683

That sort of attitude is extremely self-indulgent and leads to the development of individuals who ultimately serve no function.

>>4270681
>implying that's even proper Marxism
Go home, whoever you are. I don't know if you're a Stalinist or a McCarthyite but we don't need your kind here.

But yeah, fuck the OP.

>>4270683
>isn't the man more important that the state

What does that mean? Values are relatives.

>>4270683

You have been taught that this is so in school, but that does not mean that this is actually so.

>>4270683

I would disagree. If the individual does not serve the individual's community, in its larger form the state, then what good is the individual?

>>4270727

Yes, but would you not agree that those individuals should serve and be rewarded for their service?

>>4270694
If the survival, happiness and self fulfillment of the human person is not the purpose of the state them what is it?

>>4270727
The state has no purpose, it is a tradition before anything else.

>>4270727
to make the state survive because the state is superior to the individual

>>4270742
Truth is superior to both the state and the individual.

>>4270724
I'm not saying that indeed man should not help it's community, but that men should not be a mere tool of the state because then the community is no longer serving it's primary function.

>>4270745
lol ok fine i was trolling anyway

fucking robert pirsig pls go lila is not even a good sequel

>>4270577
His actual writing was pretty rubbish too.
He isn't in a position to be criticising cliched imagery (as he does in 'Politics and the English Language') when he himself opens up 1984 with a clock striking 13.

>13 is an unlucky number
>wow such deep

>>4270770
he definitely wasn't actually "rubbish" but his opinions on what "good writing" is are fucking annoying. they get repeated by people who haven't read any book except 1984 and think that Orwell is an untouchable god of literature and therefore nobody should ever use non-standard words and if they ever run across anything that confuses them then well that's just shit writing

>The society of 1984 is one that enforces unity and responsibility to society, in which community involvement is not only encouraged but mandated

>is not only encouraged but mandated
is wonderful rhetoric.

Passive voice to reduce the vicious agency characterized in the book, implying a logical progression from "encouraged to mandated" (and thus skipping the whole question of human liberty in one ellipsis), and a complete slip over what "community involvement" implies - war, rationing, deliberate destruction of the truth, and thought control.

Seriously, great rhetoric. Great job. 10/10. Not trolling.

>>4270577
>thinks novels argue for an "idea"

>>4270830

>human liberty

It is sad that in the post-"enlightenment" west liberty, selfishness in its ultimate form, is perceived as positive. If "liberty" is a question, the proper answer is certainly a firm "no."

>>4270830

If unity of thought is not enforced within a society, that society will become a clusterfuck of competing interests, leading to inefficiency in all decisions, as they must all be voted on by those with a variety of competing agendas, like wolves fighting over their prey.

>>4270830

>war

Encourages unity and provides a medium for service.

>Rationing

There is nothing wrong with this.

>Deliberate destruction of the truth

The narrative of "truth" is relative, with competing definitions leading to competition. A truly functional society mandates only one truth, rather than allowing individuals to shape their own individual perception of it.

>Thought control

Again, if individuals are left to their own devices they will become outliers who are incapable of contributing functionally to society.

>>4270847
Individual agency and choice are not inherently selfish. Pursuing one's individual interests is not inherently selfish. In both cases, you're assuming that there is an other or others that are inherently harmed by these pursuits.

You're conflating liberty with selfishness - and selfishness with certain moral decadence at that.

What's more, the State of 1984 clearly would stamp out a political movement that attempted the same goals of the State, but more benignly and peacefully. So even "human liberty" as a collective conception is stifled by the State.

>>4270853
>>4270866
This only makes sense in which the most philosophically elegant and simplistic vision of society is most competitive or successful.

The fact is, having incredible diversity in our goals is a FEATURE of capitalism (and certain forms of socialism) far more than it is a bug. On the one hand, in the most superficial, plain way, we're not accomplishing any one thing more efficiently than a "unified", dedicated society would. And sometimes - asteroids, wars, calamities, etc. - you need a society to band together to solve a problem, damn the waste, damn the cost. But we're also filled with a large variety of peoples and tendencies, and when we as a society devote ourselves singlemindedly to unified goals, we quash the efficient action and labor of people and tendencies less useful to this one goal. We want to start a war to maintain unity, so the peaceful people (diplomats, social workers, teachers) who are at their best mediating disputes and bringing people together - are forced to toe a line and advocate destruction, or be ostracized by this State. And then when the war's over and you want to build bridges? Well... you've chased off or otherwise corrupted all your peacemakers and social builders!

I see it like, you're making an argument for a philosophically pure society that would push virtually all its individuals into a top-down ideal that excludes and elides the complexity of human nature. For all the talk about unity, I get the sense that you'd rather build a pyramid tomb to man of arbitrary and forced unity than a highly functional, diverse human colony as people actually are.

The "clusterfuck of competing interests" is called natural variation between individuals. The "inefficiency in all directions" implies that there's a central goal that society should seek and that all human variation off of this is an inefficiency towards this goal. But indeed, this is the problem. Everyone has a different goal. What you really seem to want is to be the dictator, is my reading.

Apologies for any unjustified assumptions I'm making.

>>4270601
>big government liberal

>>4270577
>The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy — everything.
>We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science.
>There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Where does this fit into that kind of society being a good thing? Maybe you can argue that this is just Orwell's voice purposefully turning the State into MAXIMUM EVIL, but when doing an analysis of a fictional organisation within a work of fiction where do you get the right to choose which parts to look at and enjoy, and which parts not to; when theyre both coming from a source representing that organisation within the fiction?

>>4270847
It is disgusting that you think that man does not exist for his own sake, that you demand that individuals be crushed for some abstract "society". I think it's disgusting that you reduce individual lives down to the role of sacrificial animals. That you coat your terrible calls for death and enslavement of men with that kind of civility and wit is even more abhorrent.

For the sake of the world and everyone who lives in it, I really hope your just a really weird troll trying to imitate Toohey.

>>4270866
>A truly functional society mandates only one truth, rather than allowing individuals to shape their own individual perception of it.

How so?

>>4270897
>responding to a post like that in more than three words?

Don't.

>>4270947
Don't worry; I'm just stalling until someone makes a DFW thread so I can make a joke I thought of.

>>4270913

If man only exists for his own sake, who or what does he benefit other than himself?

>Terrible calls for death and enslavement

Certainly that is one, albeit rather twisted, way to frame calls for a society based on the proper ideals of service, loyalty and contribution.

>For individuals to be crushed

Not crushed, but certainly to serve a function. What is a jigsaw puzzle if you cast away several of its pieces and refuse to use them in the name of their "individuality"?

>>4270673
troll narder?

at least learn the alphabet before you butcher it

>>4270577
He looks a bit like Joyce.

>>4270577

>>4270577
you literally deserve to die

>>4270636
>>4270620
Because the people in Huxley's story are like a great deal of people today.

They are blinded by their circumstances, especially when it comes to their government.

They would prefer to comply and live their life rather than deal with the repercussions of challenging those in power.

The status quo is preferrable over the unknowns caused by fighting back.

But the worst part is, beyond those who know what is going on is wrong are those who don't think the government can be wrong or the worst of all are those who just don't care or pay attention.

They're absorbed in their life and the games and media. It keeps them complacent, keeps them from looking beyond their own doorstep to see the world around them.
And when you have a government of the worst kind, the kind that destroys your rights for your own good, the government prefers to keep a little bubble of safety around you like a sheltering parent with their sickly child.

>mfw plebeians think authoritarianism is bad just because an all-encompassing ultratyranny is bad
>mfw anarchists and marxists will be jacking each other off in caves for eternity while statists conquer the universe
>mfw hegel was right at the state is a culture's collective expression of reason
>mfw the point of mankind's existence is the State

>>4271187
You've got that backwards.

The point of the state's existence is for man.

>>4271187
It's like you never even read the Pure Terror bits in Phenomenology of Spirit.

>>4270677
if you think about it and read all of his books, he is actually an anarchist

>>4271187
the "state" is a pretty vague concept my friend

>>4271231

>Dont want government micromanaging your life
>That means you're an anarchist

>>4271187
the "State" was created by people specifically to serve people

>>4270620
The pursuit of happyness is a fabricated lie. We are NOT put on this fuckin earth to drug ourselfs into complacent nirvana. Happyness is one of the biggest shams in the world. Why not strive for knowledge instead of happiness? Why not strive for courage instead of happyness?

Huxley was right, look at the masses now.

>>4270900

classical liberals =/= modern liberal

>>4271242
>only reference 1984
>makes you an expert

>>4270620
They have the illusion of freedom. Everything from thier job to intelligence is pre determined. sure they are happy but that is only through thier forced outcome. dont forget either that in BNW we are seeing through the eyes of someone close to the top.

>>4271248
>The satirical and overall implications of Animal Farm

>>4270577

The reason people think like this is exactly why the right to keep and bear arms exists.

>>4271250
>not even close

>>4271254

>"Oh no someone wants me to be productive towards a common goal! Better shoot them!"

Animals liike you are the reason internment camps exist.

>>4271186
what is bad about any of that?

>>4271278
Because everything must come to an end.

>>4271281
i don't follow

>>4271302
If you keep people ignorant of the situation, you will never truly progress.

Nothing lasts forever; Times of peace, times of prosperity, countries, life.

It must come to an end sooner or later, either it changes or falls apart.

If you prefer the same over change, or prefer change over rational change, then you will favor chaos later-no matter the situation.

>>4270979
>What is a jigsaw puzzle if you cast away several of its pieces and refuse to use them in the name of their "individuality"?

Human life is not a puzzle to be pieced together into some more meaningful whole you sperglord.

what's the point of government when the universe is going to experience heat death

i mean fuck it, everyone should be nice and have fun and fuck a lot of bitches

>>4271371

>>4271374

god is dead brah

>>4271381
Nietzche is dead.

God can never be dead as long as anyone believes in him.

>>4271387
>Some men are born posthumously.
—Friedrich Nietzsche

>>4271387

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90PWFEeRApA

>>4271387
Yeah but if it's not very many he just kind of floats around in the Astral Plane.

>>4271371
>what's the point of government when the universe is going to experience heat death

Yeah but we've got like at least 10^100 years until that happens.

>>4271387
>God can never be dead as long as anyone believes in him.

Is the same not true of Nietzche?

>>4271397
>Yeah but we've got like at least 10^100 years until that happens.

then here's to 10^100 years of everyone being nice and having fun and fucking a lot of bitches (or dudes if that's what you're into, w/e)

>>4271401
Not quite, for God is not of the physical as much as the meta-physical and spiritual.

Nietzche's ideas were that God is dead because people no longer 'need' him.
But this is wrong.

>>4270577
>>4270577
He was also a terrible grammar nazi.

>>4271405
Human civilization won't last another 200 years you nit.

>>4271407
>Not quite, for God is not of the physical as much as the meta-physical and spiritual.

God doesn't exist.

>>4271413

Go to bed, Malthus.

>>4271243
how the do you know what we were and were not put on this planet for?

courage and knowledge aren't objectively better ideals than happiness anyway.

And for that matter, who the fuck cares. The knowledgable, the courageous, and the happy all die the same death.

>>4271243
>false dichotomy fallacy
Why not strive for both, autist?

>>4271417

>>4271262
Nice straw man, stupid.

>>4271417
Prove it.

>>4271431

question, can you please state your position via anything other than infographics from cracked.com

>>4271439
>tfw this post made you realise God exists

*rips fedora*

Authoritarian states build character.

They are a great method not to rule over the populace, but rather enlighten and strengthen it. The harder you hold onto the people, the stronger they will become.

There is a reason why Russians, for example, are seen as rugged and tough people.

Democracy and Western liberality turns people into mush. It turns people into complacent couch potatoes that are far more interested in celebs and shopping then anything of any meaning. They are devoid of any character or soul.

You need to understand what hunger is to be able to appreciate every piece of bread that falls on your plate. You need to understand what sorrow is to not be upset at irrelevant nonsense. You need to understand what death is to be able to appreciate life. You need to understand what friendship is to not assume any schmuck who throws a smile your way is instantly your 'buddy'.

>>4271441
What are you wanting me to answer?

>>4271447
>implying feminist societies that value individualism and try to break down all value and traditions aren't the strongest societies

MtFtMtF here, fuck you bigot

>>4271439

>implying the burden of proof is on me

>>4271447
>Authoritarian states build character.

I think your real issue is that you had a dad who was real strict and now you want everyone else to experience the despair of being grounded from xbox for a month.

>>4271457
If you can not reasonably defend your position, what does it matter if he's right or wrong?

This is like asking a third grader if they believe in Atlantis and they say no, and then you ask them why and their answer is 'because'.

>>4271461
Your side
>Women
>Babies
>People too fat to move a lot
>Lesbian vegans
>Marxists who have never staged a single successful revolution ever, have caused more bloodshed and cruelty than any other ideology, and have spawned the world's worst tyrannies while trying to create stateless societies

Statist side
>Every awesome person who ever existed
>Every golden age of mankind and all its scions
>Burly manly men who think war is cool and builds character
>Social democrats who have done all the actual work of dissolving class differences

>>4271447
Authoritarian states create suffering in which people must rise above. Liberal states create plenty, so people focus on celebrities and other frivolities. Good luck convincing people to choose suffering over bounty and frivolity.

>>4271466

The third grader is right and simply cannot articulate what he means by "because," which is, "there is literally no evidence for it."

It's up to you to demonstrate the truth of a positive claim. Prove I'm not a fucking leprechaun, dude.

>>4271472
It's not me you have to convince because I don't give a shit if you're a leprechaun.

>>4271469
>Marxists
>Non-statists
Choose.

>>4271482

But you still don't believe I'm a leprechaun.

How much you care doesn't change the truth value of the assertion. Or are you suddenly now some kind of dirty ~~****relativist****~~?

"Leprechauns are probably real. But I haven't see one."
- Nietzsche

>>4270947
dumbass detected

>>4271493
The truth value doesn't matter in a statement.

If you say the right words, you can convince anyone of anything.

Just look at Obama.

>>4271500

i thought obama convinced people of stuff because he's black

>>4271500
>The truth value doesn't matter in a statement.

>believing in god
>also believing this

>>4271466
So, essentially you're saying: everything exists until proven otherwise. Do I follow you correctly?

>>4271447
Go to bed, Carl.

>>4271513
It doesn't matter whether anything exists until I'm either aware of its existence or am convinced of its existence.

>>4271510
It doesn't matter when discussing philosophies and what-not.

>>4271513

That's like saying a suspect is guilty until proven innocent.

>>4270577
Like 1984? Go to North Korea! Happy 1984 times in North Korea. Shortages! Not just food and clean water, everything is short! Not even enough electricity for TVs like in 1984! Spying neighbors and government! Great Dear leader Big Brother, that is, Kim Il-sung. No Ministry of Love, just happy fun DPRK labour camps!
In North Korea, weather always good! We didn't attack South, they did first!

>>4271521
>It doesn't matter when discussing philosophies and what-not.

>believing in god
>not incorporating that belief into how you approach philosophical discussions

You are incoherent.

>>4271519
Good example. And the reason it falls flat is:

Suppose we have a murder. There are perhaps a thousand people who can't prove themselves innocent beyond a doubt. But they can't all be guilty at the same time, right?

Similarly, believing in God because God's existence hasn't been disproven should also commit you to believing in other gods, and then to a frustratingly contradictory set of mythologies.

Going at things the other way around is much simpler and arrives at more coherent explanations of stuff.

>>4271521
>It doesn't matter whether anything exists until I'm either aware of its existence or am convinced of its existence.
>all that matters is what I think
>this much solipsism
As expected of a tripfag.

>>4271523

I'm sure you'd have food shortages if you were a small country with few resources that insisted on isolationist policies and other countries were constantly threatening/leveraging economic sanctions on you because they saw you as a potential threat.

>>4271535
North Koreas one resource is actually farmland
It's why they got out of their economics depression a lot faster than South Korea. And economic sanctions? Like they have anything to offer to begin with, all their factories are 50 years old because communism fails. Do you know how much food is donated to North Korea? By the US, no less.

>>4271556
The US hasn't donated anything to North Korea since the collapse of the Agreed Framework in 2003.

>>4271584

Not entirely true. We helped them construct non-nuclear electrical plants in the late 2000's and we donate indirectly via the UN's World Food Programme. Direct aid has been pretty much dead in the water since the DRPK started actually testing nukes though, you're right.

>>4270577
And you call those fascist idiots at /pol/ Nazis.

>>4271617

>implying OP isn't a /pol/smoker

/pol/ is the worst den of statist twats this side of reddit.

>>4271617

/pol/ are more like far right libertarian survivalists rather than Fascists.

>>4271617

>fascist
>idiot

What a contradiction in terms. To be authoritarian an individual must be more rational and intelligent than others. This is why those who value personal freedom too highly suffer from an extremely low intellect.

>>4271628

If /pol/ are statists why do they hate the US government so much

>>4271645

Like all statists, they demand ideological purity from their program of brutal oppression. You may as well ask why the USSR and Nazi Germany hated each other so much if they were both totalitarian regimes.

>>4271656

uhhh i'm pretty sure /pol/ hates big government which is why they like Ron Paul so much

>>4271679
>implying someone who's more interested in insulting other boards on 4chan actually cares for any meaningful discussion
You're just wasting your time or giving him an excuse to keep trolling or posting off-topic stuff.

>>4271186
Brave new world isn't a distopian society though. Based on what it is trying to accomplish (maximizing pleasure) it does a wonderful job.

Also, at the end with the Savage being an idiot and beating himself whenever he feels happiness even if it's earned is just a way to show that the exact opposite of the society in BNW is just as bad.

You need a balance between pleasure and happiness. And there was no reason to fight back in BNW, everyone was happy. And the cool thing was that if you didn't fit in, you got to go to an island with others like you and experience life how you wanted to.

>>4271243
Huxley also shows how idiotic it is to ignore happiness altogether.

b8 or not, this is an enjoyable thread

>>4271243
You conflate happiness with ephemeral pleasure derived from impulsive behavior.

>Happyness is one of the biggest shams in the world.
WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!!!

Sheeple pls go

>>4270866
>The narrative of "truth" is relative, with competing definitions leading to competition. A truly functional society mandates only one truth, rather than allowing individuals to shape their own individual perception of it.

You are dumb.

Fuck you all with your 'Community Involvement'. Why should I serve an imaginary community? There is no such thing as a society. You fucking Whigs need to stop pretending things like progress and community spirit exists. The world is going nowhere, and most, if not all, political events have been total fucking accidents.

Community involvement is one of the most absurd and demeaning things about modern society. It's why Epicurus despised politics.