/lit/ - Literature

Would you agree that the Enlightenment abolition of form has finally transferred to the arts, thus causing grave error? I'm incredibly cynical in regard to modern and 'postmodern' art.

If we remove form and telos from art, thus reducing it to efficiency and matter, then we are left with pure subjectivity on the one hand and mere artisanship on the other. For example, this is a grave disaster and a horrific example:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dc9_1365627093

>>4470287
Personally I always liked bachs brandenburg concerto no. 3 in allegro. Hard to describe why, it just sounds so comprehensively proper, I cant imagine anything more distinguished. After that I would have to say mozarts fantasy in D minor because its so moody and yet so cheeky its crazy. Then probably beethovens tempest.

Ultimately classical is not my favored form of music anyway... but yeah overall? definitely the movie Dune. Often cop flak for having that view but I think its a comprehensive masterpiece full of wonder and creativity.

>>4470310
Agreed. I'm a big fan of number 6. Bach was just so clean and pure. He disdains dust and so he never grows old.

I like haibane renmei kek

>>4470310

Implying you didnt hear the brandenburg one from the movie "Jobs" you pretentious fuck

>>4470295

Well, I have to agree that, to my mind, form have always been one of the great features of significant art works. Form, I think, can strengthen a works unity and give a greater sense of pleasure. Even if we think on a natural form of beauty, like a diamond, we are looking into a very organized and formal molecular pattern. In physical beauty pattern is also one of the most efficient marks of success: people often considered beautiful are the ones who had greater symmetry in the facial features.

So form, to me, is quite important. In the hands of a skilled artist form can be at the same time easy to be perceived and appreciated by others and extremely difficult to create. If we think on Shakespeare’s verse and Beethoven’s music: both are quite simple to be understood and it’s beauty is apparent to anyone who actually pays attention, however the production of such works demands a great deal of technic and inspiration.

A painting by Jackson Pollock, however, can be done by anybody and its artistic merit is inexistent to the laymen: critics and strange theories must be summoned to such works acquired any significance and value, because they can’t win those by themselves.

As for your video, I simply can’t see what the point of it is. Is it to shock? If it is then we just need to take a look at any low-life neighborhood or war zone to be shocked. Art, I think, must have some degree or aesthetic value. I also think that great art is the one who can captivate thousands, but be done by only a few, a small few.

But that’s just my private opinion.

>>4470327
lol get upset why dont you jesus

I have never seen that movie before. I have been listening to classical music since I got my dads records at what 12 years of age.

I've got 2.63 gigs of classical a refined collection of just things I like, I may be a moderate classical listener but I am anything but pretentious.

You, you on the other hand are a crass brute and I cordially invite you to take a flying fuck at a rolling donut good sir. Good day.

>>4470329
I totally agree. Tolstoy says basically the same thing in 'What is Art?' just with a hint of (Christian) Religious consciousness.

>>4470327
you really had never heard the brandenburg concertos until a few months ago? they're incredibly famous.

>>4470287
>video-games
>work of art

>>4470329
>A painting by Jackson Pollock, however, can be done by anybody
confirmed for knowing nothing about art

>>4470329
oh man that video could be the worst thing ive ever seen, and ive seen some shit, oh dear

I dont think you can judge modern art based on hipsters that is entirely unfair, surely there has been outlying fad art cults in all times old and new?


there are some reasonable new age types, try this one you might actually get a kick out of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKHD3mqk2rQ

its a bit wild at times but its also pretty magical.

>>4470385

The complexity of this is overwhelming. Only the mind of a genius after several years of work and training is capable of creating such a work.

>>4470385

>splattering paint

Woah, such art. Wow, such autonomous subjectivity. So freedoms!

>>4470407
>moving brush

Woah, such art. Wow, such autonomous subjectivity. So freedoms!

>>4470407
>lebbit memes
such argument!

>>4470406
and a painting of a can of soup is worth a million bucks
sure buddy
whatever you say
ahahah

>>4470407
>autonomous subjectivity
you're an idiot.

>>4470414

I was being sarcastic.

>>4470414

Painting a can of soup is artisanship, not art. Crass modernists.

>"If he doesn't like pollock then he must like Warhol!"

How barbaric!

>>4470414
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell's_Soup_Cans
>The combination of the semi-mechanized process, the non-painterly style, and the commercial subject initially caused offense, as the work's blatantly mundane commercialism represented a direct affront to the technique and philosophy of abstract expressionism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Pollock
>Jackson Pollock, was an influential American painter and a major figure in the abstract expressionist movement. He was well known for his unique style of drip painting.

they weren't even working the same tradition dumbass

>>4470421
i think they didn't understand the sarcasm

>>4470416

You're a nigger.

>>4470406
pretty much, it requires a deep understanding of color and form

just because you can't understand anything that isn't obviously symbolic or metaphorical doesn't mean it's not art

>>4470431
/pol/ pls

>>4470435
>just because you can't understand anything that isn't obviously symbolic or metaphorical doesn't mean it's not art
actually it does

>>4470442
ok

>>4470421
>>4470430
Its wank simple as that.

Warhols work is absurdly pumped up, his monotonous boring paintings sell for stupid amounts, mostly due to financial speculation, it is beyond a joke.

>>4470287
>What’s your favorite work of art?

To me its War and Peace.

Fordlândia

>discussing what is and isn't art

Let the No True Scotsmans fly.

>>4470287

Nice to see other Beethoven fan.

You know, I never thought about it, but music is also one of my favorite arts. It can even be my favorite of all.

If I had to choose the greatest work of art of all time, I am tempted to say that Beethoven String Quartet Opus 131 would be my choice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXm1W6t-qqk

Richar Wagner said of it:

“Tis the dance of the whole world itself: wild joy, the wail of pain, love's transport, utmost bliss, grief, frenzy, riot, suffering, the lightning flickers, thunders growl: and above it the stupendous fiddler who bears and bounds it all, who leads it haughtily from whirlwind into whirlwind, to the brink of the abyss - he smiles at himself, for to him this sorcery was the merest play - and night beckons him. His day is done.”

And J.W.N. Sullivan, the author of the 1927 book “Beethoven: His Spiritual Development” (a suberb read – anydoby who likes music will love this book), called Opus 131:

“the most superhuman piece of music that Beethoven ever wrote. It is the completely unfaltering rendering into music of what we can only call the mystic vision. It has that serenity which, as Wagner said, passes beyond beauty and makes us aware of a state of consciousness surpassing our own.”

This work, above all the fugue of its first movement, is unbelievable. I have no words to describe how beautiful and profound it is. Maybe if Shakespeare was alive during the Holocaust and have seen the suffering of the Jews in the Concentration Camps he would have written painful scenes that would make me feel the same sense of loneliness, pain and sadness as this first movement.

Pic related: sketches of the work.

>>4470287
Pic Related

>>4470310
>in allegro
>not the entire Concerto
why?

>>4470635

Le Sacre du printemps by Igor Stravinsky

>>4470295
>>4470329
>>4470407
>>4470414
>>4470430
please leave, children

>>4470614
>Maybe if Shakespeare was alive during the Holocaust and have seen the suffering of the Jews in the Concentration Camps

Muh six billion-gajillion-trillion-bazillion

I can't choose one medium, and from each medium I can't choose one work. I find it pointless since there are a lot of things that cannot be compared. It's impossible.

>>4470329
>>4470406
Then why didn't you do it and became a great artist known all over the world? Oh yes, you don't get it so it must be their fault.

>>4470295
the fact that Interior Semiotics is recommended as "bad art" much more often than the pieces ITT are recommended as "good art" shows that it's a lot more successful and relevant than the pretentious mess you like

Here is my favorite work of art

mozart > beethoven

>>4470678
not everyone can be a charlatan

Thomas Tallis' Spem in alium.

>>4470287

Hmm. Very hard to choose. I'd probably say a Yeats poem - maybe "Easter 1916."

Or maybe The Tempest. Or A Picture of Dorian Gray.

Or even pic related.

It's just too hard to decide... Love music as well, but I don't know enough about it to appreciate it to the same extent as other art forms, unfortunately.

>>4470385

This. I'm not saying you have to like Pollock, or that he's 2deep4u or a great artist or anything. I'm just saying that most people could not make a painting that would pass as a Pollock.

>mfw most people here have only seen his paintings on the internet

>>4470695

not bad

>>4470695

I only used it because it is a meme. I didn't feel like hunting for original bad art.

Mendelssohns 1st Violin concerto

Perfect.

>>4470287
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/GOYA_-_El_aquelarre_(Museo_L%C3%A1zaro_Galdiano,_Madrid,_1797-98).jpg my favorite is Goya's "Aquelarre" with not doubt

>>4470287
serenade for strings, dvorak

nothing came close to touching me as deeply as the tempo di valse, not even the brothers karamazov

The Godfather (movie)

There's no better art than the combination of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture and Tolstoy's War and Peace.

Finish reading that and listen to it and prepare to have your soul gently caressed.

>>4472169
>tfw you recognise parts of the book in the song, the different retreats, the resurgence of the russian folk fighting against the marseilleise until it comes together in a final explosion that means the battle of borodino, followed by a slight silence filled with impatience, until you hear russian folk surge again triumphantly

God, Tchaikovsky's a genius.

Watch 'Amadeus' and ;Immortal Beloved' back to back.

>>4470287
Mass in B Minor is a close contender, this work contains flawless fugues or complexity and originality and encompass a huge range of emotion. From the pity of "Kyrie" to the joy "Et Exspecto" is a truly wonderous journey.

The polyphony in this work is also more complex than anything done before 1750 and arguably for a lot longer after that.

Beethoven's 9th is undoubtedly one of the greatest, but Mass in B Minor is certainly a close call.

>>4470287
Goldberg variations it is

>>4470643
I came here to post about this. Don't forget about Nijinsky's choreography and Roerich's costumes. Together, I strongly feel it is among the best pieces of art ever created.

Nikolai Medtner's Forgotten Melodies

Don't know, impossible to choose one. I suppose I like Breaking Bad. It was often cartoonish, but it resonated with me (or as Shia would say, oscillated).

I would think about it for a long time last year. One question was, if the show had a political stance, what would it be, what is it?

Walt would not have had to cook meth if he had free healthcare. (strong welfare state).

But the machismo, the virtue (in the renaissance sense), the bad assery, all these champion the ego / individual.

Vince Gilligan is a conservative (probably moderate). But he's said he and the writers never tried to say anything political with the show overtly (so as not to alienate anyone).

Pic related: there's a fly poster behind Walt

>>4472291
>Breaking Bad

That is actually a great choice.

>>4470287
Moby-Dick. I think on a personal level there's stuff that I've enjoyed more. But Moby-Dick blew me away. It's probably the most well-made, fascinating, perfectly written novel ever. There's no part of it I would criticise.

no single outstanding favourite but i happen to like 'moby dick' a great deal

>>4470287

Vivaldi - 4 seasons
Bach Cello concertos
Beethoven Moonlight sonata

That's a tough one, OP, but I think I'd say The Scream by Edvard Munch.

>Shakespeare’s complete works.

This is a bit unfair since I am referring to the whole body of work of Shakespeare. But I simply can’t think of anything artistically more glorious.

The greatest invention of mankind is - to the majority of historians and specialists - writing, the written word, and the greatest single human being to use this invention on its supreme level of beauty was Shakespeare.

>>4470287

I'm just starting to really appreciate detailed romantic era art and trying to learn more about it. But there aren't really any resources that make it easy to learn so I was thinking about creating a site that just shows users random popular pieces of art, the artist and the name of the painting.

Do you guys think it would help or be worthwhile? Just as a side project.

>>4472291
oh god spare us please

>>4472592
not pretentious enough?

>>4472291
I hope you're kidding.

>>4472600
Problem?

>>4472602
>work of art
>american tv show

>>4472614
k

>>4472614

I can’t see the problem. If you make a TV show about a relevant topic, with good scripts and using good actors, and work hard to reveal the humanity and individuality of the characters, why can’t your work be considered art?

Are you going to tell me that Breaking Bad is not art but this thing: >>4470406 is?

>>4473025
Shouldn't you be in an asylum, Tom Wolfe?

>>4470287

>>4473030

Even with my geriatric diapers drowned in shit, my fingers petrified by arthritis and my gums totally naked I still am a much better writer and artist then you will ever be, my young Hipster boy, fresh and proud in your Spring.

And besides many nurses here ate the asylum are pretty hot: when one of them (Barbra, my favorite) comes to serve me my daily glass of water and meds she leans over me and rubs her heavy and juicy warm breasts on my lean elderly back. Guess what: I even get more pussy than you do! ;)

Basinski's First Disintegration Loop

Tarkovsky's Stalker

>>4470287

Can's 'Bel Air' from future days is my favorite piece of music, really don't see how I could weigh visual art or nliterature against music, they're just different

>>4470310

You like Dune, too, man? Everywhere I go I see only hate for it but I love it. Elephant Man and Dune are a lot different from his usual catalogue but I think this is what makes them so special.

>>4473053
Forgot your exclamation points and awkward onomatopoeias, my kind man!!!!!!!!

Your fedora is in good condition, I hope, even after all that tipping?

>>4470385

this is what saddens me the most. people talking about 'patterns' in art that can't even appreciate something as simple as a pollock painting

>>4472571

anything has an audience really, you just need to get it out there

>>4473068

You said it right: it’s a very simple fucking thing. You might say “Oh yeah, then why nobody has ever done this before?”. Guess what: if you give anyone a month of time to train (even less) the person in the end will be able to do the same thing as Pollock, exactly the same thing in the same style.

There is also the fact that just because something is new doesn’t mean that its creation required large stores of mental power and creativity. New drawings and memes are popping up in the internet daily, but you can’t say that the world is bubbling with geniuses. But think now on a Bach fugue, or a Michelangelo small drawing. Not the enormous concertos or frescoes, but still almost nobody would ever be capable of doing the same. The beautiful simplicity of such works is only possible in the hands of skilled artists.

Now, I am not saying a Pollock painting is a bad thing. It actually relaxes me to admire one of them: they are kind of logical in their world of chaos. But nobody is ever going to make me think that the man who created them is a genius. No: far from it. Genius do things that almost nobody else can do: their works are not only admired by many as supreme, but also are the product of few minds who mixed great talent with great amount of work and practice.

Pollock doesn’t deserve the fame that he has, and the fact that only collectors and art critics see him as a genius is very appropriate: he doesn’t deserve to be praised as some of the great episodes in the history of art.

Or, if he deserves it, then there are hundreds and hundreds of unknown artists out there that also do, and there are many more drowned in the dusty pages and moldy catalogues of past history.

>>4473111

>You might say “Oh yeah, then why nobody has ever done this before?”. Guess what: if you give anyone a month of time to train (even less) the person in the end will be able to do the same thing as Pollock, exactly the same thing in the same style.

The reason that it took that long for someone to make art like this is probably because for centuries the definition of what was or was not considered art was very, very strict and a Pollock painting would not only have been misunderstood but also have no audience. At all.

>There is also the fact that just because something is new doesn’t mean that its creation required large stores of mental power and creativity.

Obviously. I completely agree here.

>The beautiful simplicity of such works is only possible in the hands of skilled artists.

Now I think this is where you make a pretty big mistake. Why can only a true genius make something that has this 'beautiful simplicity' you are talking about? Why is simplicity inherently beautiful? Honestly, I think anyone that devotes enough time can create something beautiful with artistic merit, it is not about the person in the slightest, it is about the piece. The artist still plays a role in that he projects into his piece of art, but basically an individual will get the most out of a piece of art either if he can genuinly relate or project something onto a piece of art.

>they are kind of logical in their world of chaos

I have to disagree here aswell. They look chaotic but there is a ton of thought behind it. I do not fully understand Pollock, simply because I am a huge Ignoramus. What is not to be forgotten, though, is that this does not give a Pollock painting more or less merit, quite the opposite. Pollocks use of colour is something you have to study in order to understand. You could argue that this takes away from the piece and this is a legitimate criticism for some, but it's the complete opposite for me.

Let me give you an example in my favorite artist, Joseph Beuys. His works are often misunderstood, some call him a moron and some hail him as the most important artist of the 20th century. One of the most favorite incidents revolve around a cleaning-woman doing her job and destroying Beuys 'Fettecke' (Corner with fat in it, literally). In order to understand any Beuys piece you have to be aware of his theory of the warm and the cold pole, his biography and his tenet of material.

>Or, if he deserves it, then there are hundreds and hundreds of unknown artists out there that also do, and there are many more drowned in the dusty pages and moldy catalogues of past history.

This, however is true and will always be true.

>>4473151
>Now I think this is where you make a pretty big mistake. Why can only a true genius make something that has this 'beautiful simplicity' you are talking about? Why is simplicity inherently beautiful? Honestly, I think anyone that devotes enough time can create something beautiful with artistic merit, it is not about the person in the slightest, it is about the piece. The artist still plays a role in that he projects into his piece of art, but basically an individual will get the most out of a piece of art either if he can genuinly relate or project something onto a piece of art.

I guess you might be right. Never thought on it this way. I also think that anybody can produce great art, but I think that several hours of hard work and discipline are also necessary. To tell you the truth I don’t really know how great or real is the part of the talent. Talent might be after all only a predilection for some activity, what droves the person to spend hundreds of hours practicing and striving to get better.

>>4473165

I honestly don't believe talent exist, it's just people with a more receptive reward center in their brain and ambitious parents. That's why I also have problems with the word 'genius', since itelligence is something you're born with, not something you have acquired on your own.

If we can both agree on 'normal' people being able to create a beautiful piece with artistic merit then we might aswell go as far and say that it's not the genius creating the piece of art but rather the sophisticated expression of thoughts making the individual a genius.

>>4470421
>>4470414
lol is it really surprising that hte reactionary dweebs going on about the decadence of modern art are autistic weirdos who can't follow basic sarcasm

>>4470614
>Nice to see other Beethoven fan.
Uh yeah they're pretty hard to come across good job

>>4470695
Not exactly but good post either way

>>4471154
goya was pretty fucked up. this one tho

>>4473059

>Can's 'Bel Air' from future days is my favorite piece of music

mad props, yo

Don Giovanni

There's just something about opera, I don't know, you have to experience it. Narrative plus the power of music is really the ultimate artistic form of expression.

That or 2001.

>>4475036

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbl6jQuyuM

La Statua del Commendatore
Dammi la mano in pegno!

Don Giovanni (dandogli la mano)
Eccola! ohimè!

La Statua del Commendatore
Cos’hai?

Don Giovanni
Che gelo è questo mai!

La Statua del Commendatore
Pentiti, cangia vita! È l’ultimo momento!

Don Giovanni (vuol sciogliersi, ma invano.)
No, no, ch’io non mi pento! Vanne lontan da me!

La Statua del Commendatore
Pentiti, scellerato!

Don Giovanni
No, vecchio infatuato!

La Statua del Commendatore
Pentiti… Pentiti!

Don Giovanni
No!… No!…

La Statua del Commendatore
Sì!

Don Giovanni
No!

Leporello
Sì, sì!

Don Giovanni
No, no!

La Statua del Commendatore
Ah, tempo più non v’è!
(Parte. Foco da diverse parti, tremuoto.)

Don Giovanni
Da qual tremore insolito sento assalir gli spiriti!
Donde escono quei vortici di fuoco pien d’orror?

Demoni (di sotterra, con voci cupe)
Tutto a tue colpe è poco! Vieni! c’è un mal peggior! ecc.

Don Giovanni
Chi l’anima mi lacera! Chi m’agita le viscere!
Che strazio, ohimè! che smania! che inferno! che terror! ecc.

Leporello
Che ceffo disperato! Che gesti da dannato!
Che gridi! che lamenti! Come mi fa terror! ecc.

Don Giovanni (Il foco cresce; si sprofonda.)
Ah!
(Resta inghiottito dalla terra.)

Leporello
Ah!

>>4470406
I've always liked Pollock if just for the reason that he manages to get the dilettantes and the cynics at each other's throats. The paintings are pretty cool and I would definitely put one on my wall if I could pick one up for about 80-120 dollars. If you think any piece of art is worth the millions people pay for them (with two exceptions the materials themselves are that expensive or you've found a way to capitalize it), you're just an idiot. This "great man" school of thought when it comes to paintings and such is just a way of rich people to make investments that will not diminish in value. They're are plenty of people making beautiful and interesting things whose names will be left out of history because they weren't lucky enough to be chosen by the upper class or have the connections to pretend to be greater than they actually are.

>>4475184
shit There*

When it comes to music, it's a tie between Schubert's String Quartet No. 14, and Penderecki's No. 1

>>4470406
Graphical arts? It has to be pic related.

>>4475036
Movie-wise, I'm with this guy, 2001 reigns supreme.

Strangely enough, I find it very hard to come up with a preferred book. 'twould probably be Mark Twain's The Great Darkness, had it ever been finished.

>>4475233

>Movie-wise, I'm with this guy, 2001 reigns supreme.

'The Passion of Joan of Arc' by Dreyer
'The Seventh Seal' by Bergman
'Andrei Rublev' by Tarkovsky

All better than 2001.

>>4475233
This is fucking pathetic.

>>4470406
For what it's worth a Pollock painting is far from "randomly" splattered paint. They're full of aesthetics. Just look at how they have cohesive color schemes, or how the geometry of the paint itself is distributed across the canvas with something between uniformity and local concentration. I.e., the paint is neither bunched up thickly in one place, nor spread so evenly that no overall shapes emerge. This is an aesthetically pleasing arrangement to the eye, which an unguided natural or "random" process would not be guaranteed to produce.

>>4470887
This guy gets what I'm saying I think. That's basically what I mean. Not necessarily "mindblowing" art, but more than whatever seem to people imagine it is.

By the way I actually saw Pollocks in person at the Guggenheim Collection in Venice. Once I saw the 3D nature of them, I wondered why they didn't display them laying flat (like on the floor or on a table) as they were created, rather than hanging on a wall.

>>4473056
>Basinski's First Disintegration Loop
Holy shit dude, this is great!

When I saw "Stalker" I figured "I'm probably going to like whatever this guy is talking about," but damn... I can't believe I haven't heard of this before.

>>4476261
Seen all of them, and they are top notch movies, but 2001 is still my favourite.

Silent Hill 2.

No other piece of media has come so close to drawing me into another world, really making me feel like a visitor in another world, really resonating with the rawness of my own emotions at the time. Nothing else has so deeply disturbed me.

It's probably because I was so receptive, so open and vulnerable at the time, but I can't deny that Silent Hill 2 spoke to me. It allowed me to understand my depression, my life situation, and choose whether I wanted to continue living the way I had been or find a different life.

I understand that an answer like this makes me seem like a cultural dilettante, but OP did ask for our favorite works of art, not the ones we consider most beautiful or influential or technically superior.

Probably Revolutionary Girl Utena.

Erratic, seemingly pointless acts of violence interests me greatly.

And before you go "dont cut urself on dose edges xD", I don't actually want to harm anyone or see harm being inflicted on others. I do not want it, I am simply interested by it.

Bronson is a film about Britain's most violent prisoner. I have watched this film countless of times, and it's a delight each time. I've read about Bronson himself extensively and have found absolutely nothing to indicate him being mentally ill.

However, he has random, seemingly humoristic bouts of rage and anger where he will snap and absolutely destroy anyone and anything in his immediate vicinity, excluding women and children. He will do this, and not really feel anything afterwards, which is a general sign of sociopathy. However, he often says he regrets certain things and the fact that he has never laid a hand on a women or child (or committed murder), goes against the basic principles of sociopathy. He is a walking psychological mystery because he follows no established patterns of mental disorders or illnesses of any kind.

He considers himself an artist of violence. And that intrigues me.

What is it about fighting that is so easily romanticized? I couldn't say, but I guess it is because fighting is one of the most, if not -the- most primitive and ancient way of expressing oneself... The concept has been engraved within humanity for tens of thousands of years. When words simply cannot solve a given issue, fists will often come into play. But in some peoples cases, words are simply a prologue to the violence. Why and how this happens, interests me.

Personally, I'm not a stranger to fighting. Being quite a troublesome child led to getting into a lot of child fights, and while stumbling bloodied and bruised - but victorious felt like nothing I've felt since, I couldnt imagine what it would be like fighting a grown man now, being in my mid 20's. I do have an urging curiosity to find out though.

>>4476592
Sounds fetishistic.

>I do not want it
>I do have an urging curiosity to find out though.
So which is it?

But ok, now that the obligatory "don't cut "u"ou'reself on le edges" is out of the way... actually, wait, I've got nothing. Your reasoning sounds thoughtful, but I just can't imagine any (neurotypical) person feeling this way without it being something like a fetish.

>>4476592

>Erratic, seemingly pointless acts of violence interests me greatly.

i would say that this probably has more to do with your own personal feelings of masculine impotence than an actual fascination with violence itself

you venerate characters like bronson because they can freely dictate the outcome of a situation they are in at a whim, the violence is a metaphor for social control that you feel you lack. this is why you fetishize it.

inb4 armchair psych, i'm probably right anyway

>>4476617
>So which is it?

That's the thing, I couldn't explain it.

One the one side, fighting is wrong. Violence is wrong, right? We are a civil society with laws and order, and violence is never the answer. I was told this when I was growing up, and I'm being told this today. These ideas are thoroughly embedded into the back of my skull.

But on the other side, isn't fighting so pure and simple in what it is, essentially? It is as straight-forward as it can get. It is beautiful in that sense. I remember my school fights and I relish in the thought of absolutely destroying someone with nothing but my bare fists, my anger, and my reflexes. Not for laughs, but for something that had upset me.

That adrenaline rush just before a fight, when your brain tells you a confrontation is going to occur, all your senses focused on the body language of your opponent. The built-up adrenaline and tension that just ignites in an instant when the first fist is swung. I can't even put it into coherent words, there is simply nothing like it. Perhaps you are right, it has something to do with fetishism. I'm not quite sure, yet.

>>4476680
Shit, I haven't even thought of that to be honest. You could be right.

The Starry Night by Van Gogh. Just everything about it is so perfect.

>>4476684
Evola; Metaphysics of War. Junger; Storm of Steel. Might interest you-

And because I am a dirty pacifist; Tolstoy, the Kingdom of God is Within You.

All good reads re: violence.

>>4476592

Why don’t you start doing box, MMA or some kind of fight? Then you will have a legal reason to break the shit out of other guys.

>>4470287
>What’s your favorite work of art?
either certain first-person experienced landscapes or specifically-groomed females

>>4476732
best painting
that knife sharpener is admittedly pretty rad but I would still rather this on my wall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Gg0RdEWQk

this song

Apocalypse Now

Clair de Lune

i am a shameless pleb, go fuck yourself

i hope im not too late: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY

>>4478055

You are not a pleb: this work is divine.It has an overwhelming sense of sadness and longing, a supernatural capacity of filling the hearth with nostalgia – it is unbelievably beautiful.

It always brings tears to my eyes. I remember of my early twenties, of my first love and of how we were happy in that time, how the world was new and exciting. But all things pass: this is the feeling that this music brings to me – the inexorable feet of time and memories of the beauty and freshness that is youth.

>>4470287
This poem by Frank Stanford.

>Instead

Death is a good word.
It often returns
When it is very
Dark outside and hot,
Like a fisherman
Over the limit,
Without pain, sex,
Or melancholy.
Young as I am, I
Hold light for this boat.

When the rest of you
Were being children
I became a monk
To my own listing
Imagination.
Nights and days floated
Over the whorehouse
Like webs on the lake,
A monastery
Full of noise and girls.

The moon throws the knives.
The poets echo goodbye,
Towing silence too.
Near my house was an
Island, where a horse
Lathered up alone.
Oh, Abednego
He was called, dusky,
Cruel as a poem
To a black gypsy.

Sadness and whiskey
Cost more than friends.
I visit prisons,
Orphanages, joints,
Hoping I'll see them
Again. Willows, ice,
Minnows, no money.
You'll have to say it
Soon, you know. To your
Wife, your child, yourself.

>>4477972
Organized fights and martial arts aren't really the sort of all-out battles of strength this guy seems to be interested in. In boxing you have relatively little to fear from your opponent, other than a lot of pain and the humiliation of loss. This guy sounds like he would only be satisfied by some sort of "fight club" where he knows his "partner" is of a similar mind (a willing participant in a limitless act of violence)--someone he knows will not hesitate to beat him to within an inch of his life, maybe even kill him, if he doesn't manage to stop him.

I think only in a fight where both participants know that the other would not hold back at all could either one guiltlessly attack with the raw violence he desires.

>>4478055
Pleb? What do you mean? Are you saying that because it's popular? This is one of the greatest pieces of music ever invented. You'd be a pleb to dislike it because of its popularity.

I've been thinking for days about how I am going to answer the question posed in this thread. I find music to be incredibly powerful (in general I think I'm very sensitive to sounds), but I'm too inexperienced (too much of a pleb) to have an opinion about what the greatest piece or pieces of music might be.

Literature is also powerful, since over all the time and mental energy a reader invests in a book, strong emotional bonds can form. I think language itself is a fascinating form (with its tantalizing combination of limitation and flexibility) and I love to experience the writing of a master who tames language and exploits it joyfully. I'm particularly a fan of Nabokov for this reason, but in the end I think I'm forced to say that his most powerful writing is still "merely" a trick, a manipulation of the reader. Evocative writing relies on appealing to (or shocking) the experiences, senses, and sensibilities of a reader. If there's any "truth" or "profundity" to it, it's very distorted. If honest writing exists, I don't know, but clearly I prefer to read this indulgent sort more, so I don't think I could really say that any work of literature is my personal supreme art either.

Visual arts, I appreciate quite a lot, but I don't think I have enough of an emotional attachment to any painting or sculpture or print or whatever to qualify as my answer here either. Performance arts don't particularly appeal to me. They are extremely intimate and personal and they make me feel excluded. I think someone who is him or herself a performer could appreciate a once-in-a-lifetime performance as a greatest of all time sort of work of art, though.

That leaves architecture. But I don't think any individual building is "important" enough, for me. Not any more than any other particular piece of craftsmanship. But I think maybe something like an entire city, or a collection of cities, or perhaps all the cities of the world together over all of human history would have the sort of universality and "honesty" I'm looking for. A city is a combination of the ugly and the beautiful, of craftsmanship and perfect planning and control, but also the formative realities of nature (if a marsh is drained, then the result is a consequence of both human power and of the original presence of the marsh itself, etc.). I could go on but I think I'll run out of room in this post.

So for me, for now, I'll say that the ultimate work of art is "the City."

>>4478821
>the city

You must not live in America. Lol! Let me tell you something about America, son -- we'd rather save a buck or two than make our buildings look pretty!

>>4478829
Ugliness is fascinating though, because it begs the question of what circumstances caused it. If someone was that desperate to save a buck, what did they spend it on? Were they successful in whatever they tried to do with it? Did the ugliness serve as a means to an end, or did it only chip away at something that could have otherwise been great? That's honesty.

For instance, pic related is one of the most fascinating sights I've ever wished I could have seen.

>>4470287
"Drunken Ship" of beautiful monsieur Rimbaud,
Requiem D-moll of Mozart

this

http://www.omfgdogs.com/

>>4478764
So in any case I am pleb

Checkmate atheists

Vagabond, by Takehico Inoue.

>>4478847
Ugliness is in a way superior to beauty because it lasts.

>>4478847

>not knowing what "begs the question" actually means

I get what you're saying though.

"The initial mystery that attends any journey is: how did the traveler reach his starting point in the first place"

I think the most perfect paintings are the related picture and Suprematism (1916) by Malevici.

>>4481309
Fine, I will concede that "begs the question" is a fixed phrase with a specific rhetorical meaning. Replace the word "begs" with "teases" or "teases one with" and my explanation may become even more descriptive.

But yes, you get what I'm saying.