/lit/ - Literature

>that feel after a long night of "loving" thy enemy in the desert

We begat much chafing.

Love yr enemies
Hate yr friends

>>4951910
>jesus and christianity
>obviously based on many other ancient religions
>still relevant for some people, since they dont know this and still believe it
>somehow jesus is still relevant

>>4951940
>people shouldn't want to believe it because ___

>>4951940
>people should only follow the first ancient religion for the tr00 cred

>>4951940
>>obviously based on many other ancient religions

You're either stuck in 19th century scholarship or you believe everything you read on the internet.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It's actually pretty obvious when you think about it. I recommend reading the Four Gospels.

>>4951957
How is it not?

>>4951961
For someone with an anti-christian stance the gospel will mean nothing
for someone seriously considering theism it can be everything
medieval church had it right

>>4951953
No, but when its derrived from another religion, its clearly not the pathway to truth, is it?

>>4951957
Am I wrong?

>>4951981
you can't really say that one of them is more of a 'pathway to truth' than any of the others. you clearly do not understand religion outside of historicism.

>>4951962
>>4951981

Yes, you are wrong. Every modern scholar views Judaism as the appropriate backdrop to study Christianity, not paganism. Don't embarrass yourself by posting false Osiris/Dionysus comparisons that you've seen on the internet.

Jesus didn't love his enemies, he was just passive agressive.

>>4951981
The originals which e.g christianity is derrived from is more likelier to be true because it isnt at least a rip-off, even though no religions are truth of course.

Read this: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/jesus-and-pagan-mythology

Pretty sure that's metaphorical.

>>4952007
Thats not the case, sir. I haven't just looked up something on the net then gone to lit to be an asshole and pretend I know this. What I'm saying is true. The comparisons of Osiris and Dionysus is even irrelevant - there are hundreds of other things that prove christianity is just based on older religions. Maybe you should read about this before judging me.

>>4952007
i think we are being trolled

>>4951981
>things can never change
>if you dont believe the exact same thing 50 years from now it is wrong
That's bullshit.

Pretty sure he's mythological.

>>4952026

Enlighten me.

>>4952028
I'm not saying that. Please read my former post.
>>4952026

>>4952026
>there are hundreds of other things that prove christianity is just based on older religions.

name one religion where you have to believe in the incarnation, death, and resurrection of a being that is full man and full God, and who is the promised messiah of Abraham and his seed.

>>4952037
not him but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology

>>4952040
>I say christianity has copied other ancient texts and some parts are rip-offs
>demands 100% alike religion

>>4952059
>demands 100% alike religion

No, what I stated is the most basic aspect of Christianity. If there is no religion that shares that basic aspect then there is no religion like it. Saying that it is derived from older religions because older religions have virgins and resurrections is like saying that French is derived from Hebrew because they both have nouns and verbs.

>>4952070
Almost everything of signifigance in the bible is derrived from primarily Mesopotamia. This proves that its simply not true. For example, Easter, comes from Ishtar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar

>>4952049

I suggest you look at each of these scholars such as Kuhn, Harpur, and Massey and see how seriously they are taken in the field

>>4952090
That's like everything of significance in Evolution is derived from England; what does the location of the birth of an idea have to do with anything?

>>4952090
>For example, Easter, comes from Ishtar

Okay, so you just believe what you read on the internet. Stop posting.

>>4952049
Comparative mythology extends to all corners of the world, even places which had no outside influence. The flood myth, the dying-and-rising god, etc, could be found from the Aztecs to the Japanese.

>>4952090
The English 'Easter' comes from 'Eostre'. In Latin, it's 'Pascha', which comes from the Hebrew 'Pesach' which means Passover.

>>4952026


Judaism is understood by modern scholarship to be a largely derivative religion born out of the woship of El and Baʻal Hada above the other deities. There is a great deal of evidence for the develeopment of the religion from a polytheism to a monotheism in the old testament.

The link between Christianity and paganism is much less signifiant. It is more historical than it is religious. Christianity was a development in Judaism, but it was also influenced by Perisian and Greek cultural tropes. For example the gospels are Greek biography which embellishes stories with the purpose of establishing a person's most important character traits. The embellishments are almost certainly derived from other popular stories of travelling prophets and healers and borrows here and there from polytheistic mythology. It is entirely incorrect to say that Christianity is based on other religions. It is correct to say that it is part of a movement that was occuring in the near east at the time in which apocolypytic prophets and healers were common.

>>4952104
>The flood myth, the dying-and-rising god, etc, could be found from the Aztecs to the Japanese.

Makes the Bible seem even more credible. If people all over the world, from separate cultures, all report a flood . . . then maybe there was a flood. And if all portray a dying and rising god, maybe that's because it has extreme spiritual significance.

>>4952116
Baha'i, please.

>>4952090
Yea, no. The name most likely came from Ēostre. From wiki :"Ēostre is attested solely by Bede in his 8th-century work The Reckoning of Time, where Bede states that during Ēosturmōnaþ (the equivalent of April), pagan Anglo-Saxons had held feasts in Eostre's honor, but that this tradition had died out by his time, replaced by the Christian Paschal month, a celebration of the resurrection of Jesus."

This doesn't mean anything. Christianity came along and overrode the pagan traditions, everyone knows this. And it's just a name anyway.

>>4952116
What about all the archeogical arguments that it actually never happened?

>>4951910
>implying I have enemies

>>4952127
He said "spiritual significance", didn't he now.

Why should I listen to Jesus and not Yahweh?

>>4952111
Thanks

>>4952123
It wasn't really replaced as much as it was moved slightly later in the week so they could stamp out Easter.

>>4951910

>I think he said, "Blessed are the cheesemakers"

>>4952116

It is unlikely that an event would be remembered for about 4500 years by a culture like the aztecs, which propbably was not developed in any capacity when the Sumerian flood myth was written. It is more likely that flood events are universally important across culture.

>>4952136
quiet big nose

>>4952133
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

>>4952133
Add the letter Shin to Yahweh (YHVH) and you get Yahshua.

>>4952133

Jesus is Yahweh. :^)

>they think christianity hasn't copied from prior fables
>chortlingharlots.jpg

>>4952141
That's bold of Jesus. Proclaiming himself greater than his father.

>>4952150
>sermon on the mount as a fable
Well that's a new claim to me.

>>4952150
I don't see "love your enemies" on there. Or even "love your neighbor."

>>4952150
>Dionysus traveled and taught some stuff
>Jesus traveled and taught some stuff

Mind = blown.

>>4952150

Yeah those ancient Jews who despised pagan beliefs and traditions suddenly decided to apply the pagan myths they heard to their own religion just because :^)

>>4952182

Christianity made a great many PR moves to make itself more popular to pagans.

>>4952157
He IS god in the system of beliefs, how fucking ignorant are you?

>>4952179
>implying that's all it says
>implying there isn't more
>implying you're not butthurt

>there are people who don't believe that 2000 years ago the eternal and transcendent Form of the Good was born as a man, who both taught and testified to the Logos, and lived as it, and then gave up his own life so that others would see the true way to live, as he did, loving one another, perfect as our heavenly father is perfect, so that one day when division and difference is finally put aside, and there is but one enemy left to be destroyed, Death, the Kingdom of God will be established on earth, and we shall live forever

Show of hands, who has actually read the Bible here?

>>4952007
>is religious
>claims his scholarship is pure

Kek-o-fucking-kek

>>4952220
>reading the whole Bible
Why not read the parts that are relevant, meaning the parts from the OT that aren't shit, toss the rest?

>It's an absolute kind of real fuckin' neato going on in here

>>4952182

>>4952196
>all these things they're saying are similar here
But this is trivial shit. Why does it matter?

>>4952272
What the fuck, that gif.. Real??

>>4952278
Yes, with the power of Christ.

>>4952272
>trivial shit
>implying the bible isn't

>>4952272
>this is trivial shit
Says you. People who know what they're talking about don't agree.

>>4952294
But I know what I'm talking about, so your point is debunked.

>Aristotle spoke to people on some rocks
>Jesus spoke to people on some rocks
>this may be a twisting of stories over time!

>>4952306
>But I know what I'm talking about, so your point is debunked.
Filtered.

>>4952310
About fucking time.

>>4951940
>omg christianity is, like, so derivative!
>>>/mu/

>>4952294

I wouldn't say trivial is the correct word, but the comparisons are at best specious. Take ascension, for example

>consider the Gospel event of most interest to me: Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Many of the alleged parallels to this event are actually apotheosis stories, the divinization and assumption of the hero into heaven (Hercules, Romulus). Others are disappearance stories, asserting that the hero has vanished into a higher sphere (Apollonius of Tyana, Empedocles). Still others are seasonal symbols for the crop cycle, as the vegetation dies in the dry season and comes back to life in the rainy season (Tammuz, Osiris, Adonis). Some are political expressions of Emperor worship (Julius Caesar, Caesar Augustus). None of these is parallel to the Jewish idea of the resurrection of the dead. David Aune, who is a specialist in comparative ancient Near Eastern literature, concludes, "no parallel to them [resurrection traditions] is found in Graeco-Roman biography" ("The Genre of the Gospels," in Gospel Perspectives II, ed. R. T. France and David Wenham [Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1981], p. 48).

-My Lord and Savior William Lane Craig

>>4952196

>Meeting on the road
Maybe you're an Amerifat and don't walk much, but lots of people meet on roads.

>Eyewitness testimony
How does this mean anything? Islam, Hinduism, and several religions claim this.

>Taken away in a cloud
Fairly common way of Ascension. This was in the OT too: "2 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.”"

>Dubious alternative accounts:
Lolwut? The verse just says: "11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.”

>Immortal/heavenly body:
Glorified bodies are Indicated in the OT too.

>Outside of the city the people flee
? Not sure what this even means. The verse says 17 And bearing his own cross, he went forth to that place which is called Calvary, but in Hebrew Golgotha.

>Deification
Never happened. Jesus was always God.

>Belief, homage, and rejoicing
Is is supposed to mean anything? Really?

>Bright and shining appearance
Like the description of every deity ever?

>Frightened subjects:
It may shock you, but fear is a common emotion.

>All in sorrow over loss
Were you expecting them to have a party?

>Inspired message of translation
Okay, that's a similarity.

>>4952319
>omg christianity is like, totally unique and speeecial ;-) <3

>>4952323
>William Lane Craig
laughing_scholars.jpg

>>4952345
>implying they don't appear in the works in the same structure and order, too

>>4952447
I think you missed the point of >>4952345 a bit.

>>4952454
I think you may be full of shit

>>4952459
And I you, obviously. What's your point?

>>4952464
>scholars notice a correlation in plot elements and themes
>random anons just deny it
>"I'm qualified totally"

you just sound like a fucking tard when you outright deny things

>>4952196
>>4952345
>Inspired message of translation

What a joke. By the way, this is supposed to be the similarity:

Plut. Rom. 28
[3] These things seemed to the Romans worthy of belief, from the character of the man who related them, and from the oath which he had taken; moreover, some influence from heaven also, akin to inspiration, laid hold upon their emotions, for no man contradicted Proculus, but all put aside suspicion and calumny and prayed to Quirinus, and honoured him as a god.

Acts 1:4-8
4 And eating together with them, he commanded them, that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but should wait for the promise of the Father, which you have heard (saith he) by my mouth.

5 For John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence.

6 They therefore who were come together, asked him, saying: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power:

8 But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2:1-4
2 And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place:

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.

>>4952484
>ad hom

Scholars both agree and disagree on similarities. There is no consensus and random anon actually made an argument for each point.

>>4952495
>>4952345
You really are googling furiously right now aren't you?

>>4952499
WOW, you are so fucking stupid

You started the fallacy-trap by making a baseless appeal to your own authority. I said your authority is dubious and I don't trust it. That is a non-fallacious ad hominen, because YOU brought up your authority as part of the argument, not me.

No.

>>4952499
I would also have a reason to trust you if you weren't obviously religious. You're like the Dawkins-tier of theological study

>>4952512
>You really are googling furiously right now aren't you?

You know it. Most of the stuff is a bunch of dubious lies, seems to be on a lot of fedora blogs.

>>4952530
All my fedora blogs come in pdf form.

>>4952522
That's cool, yo.

>>4952516
What? What does my authority have to do with anything? I never made the posts >>4952345 and >>4952495 and "I think you missed the point" is hardly an appeal to my own authority.

You made an appeal of their argument based on the qualifications of the author rather than their content. What am I supposed to say about this except that that is an ad hom.

>>4952530
>implying that your devotion to what you perceive as fundamentalist Bible truth is any superior
>implying you aren't ecstatic
>all this rosary kissing

please, fuck off with your caricaturing

>>4952554
>made an appeal

"Made a dismissal", rather. My mistake.

>>4952278
Yeah it got hit by a train. Welcome to cow logic.

>>4952554
Are you so stupid that you forget what you posted mere minutes ago?

>>4952306
>But I know what I'm talking about, so your point is debunked.

"I know what I'm talking about" is claiming authority on the subject. You're full of shit

>>4952564
>cow gets hit by train
>cow survives because favoured by the gods
>tfw hinduism was the right answer all along

>>4952554
You just know some pre-teen added the captions to that .gif. You'd think a tripfag would have better taste than to post it. (Not because he's a tripfag, but because attaching your name to something ought to mean you choose what you post more wisely. Not so.)

>>4952557
>please, fuck off with your caricaturing

You'd like me to would you. So far you've done noting to refute me (I guess you really can't anyway). Protip: If you want people to take you even a bit seriously, then stop with all the silly ad hominems and strawmen.

>This is one of the most important verses in the entire New Testament, Luz states that the ideas expressed in this verse are "considered the Christian distinction and innovation." "Love thy enemies" is what separates Christianity from all earlier religions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:44

>>4952557
>getting this upset
god damn

>>4952565
Nigga, what? So you were backtracking to irrelevant things? The fuck is wrong with you.

The person made a baseless claim about people who "know what they're talking about" so I made a baseless claim about myself being one of them. It defused it all.

However, what does this have to do with the conversation we just had? Let me backtrack for you.

>>4952447
>>4952454
>>4952459
>>4952464
>>4952484

You pulling up something I said long after it's not part of the discussion is irrelevant. You're avoiding the other poster's comments which originally was our topic. And for the most part the post with content elaborates on the trivialities of the connections made that I first said in >>4952272

>>4952567
>having unrealistically high standards
>for a tripfag of all things

>>4952576
Point out one of either fallacy I've committed.

On the other hand, there's you, where the whole thread is a strawman against scholarship that doubts fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible

And you're the one trying to mock me?

>>4952582
Do you really expect me to read all that shit? You can live in a cave if you want, but actually denying reasonable interpretations of the Bible in favor of literal, fundamentalist translations is fucking retarded. Anything short of the most liberal interpretations of the Bible are for people who are too stupid to consider intellectually. Filtered and saged

>>4952591
>Do you really expect me to read all that shit?
Yes.
You have a problem with that, Sandinista?

>>4952582
>anime girl

>>4952597
Too bad, you're too stupid for my effort

>>4952604
>didn't actually filter me
I swear. All talk.

>>4952607
>implying you can't still view posts after filtering

Just leave, go to church and pray to Jesus. Your stupidity will only drag /lit/ further into the abyss

>>4952611
>still not filtering me

>>4952583
As if I can discern whos who on an anonymous board. There's this at least

Strawmen:
>>4952591
>>4952557
>>4952484

Ad Hominem:
>>4952459

>>4952629
>I think you may be full of shit
>calling that an ad hominem fallacy

Christians are just too stupid

>>4952633
>An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments.

>>4952629
You're the one arguing for a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible; i.e. denying that it may be somewhat inspired by other literature with no basis

>>4952642
Later on the same page:

>Mere verbal abuse in the absence of an argument, however, is not ad hominem nor any kind of logical fallacy

You are so fucking stupid it burns. It literally hurts to talk to Christians, because you're so fucking stupid you can't even put together coherent ideas. The ideas you're arguing for in this thread are purely inspired by your desire for the Bible to be as literal as possible, not out of intellectual rigor. Don't pretend otherwise.

>>4952646
>Fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible = denying that it may be somewhat inspired by other literature with no basis.

What?

>>4952007
It's the fucking Jewish version of the myth. Every Mediterranean society had one.
>At the beginning they liked the ties to Judaism because Romans respected really old religions
>But for other reasons that they needed to distance themselves from it (you don't need to be born Christian)

>>4952650
Aww is the little fella upset on 4chan?

>>4951948

having "want" as your epistemic standard shows you for the porcine whore that you are

you can't just believe something because it feels good

>>4952676
>you can't just believe something because it feels good

90% of the Christian religion.jpg

>>4952654
>being this dense

Yes, denying evidence that deculturalizes and deemphasizes the uniqueness of Jewish culture goes against fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible

>>4952676
Don't know why there's a rash of bad tripfaggots, lately. Might have to quit /lit/ if it keeps going downhill.

>>4952650
Okay, maybe you're right about the ad hominem part (kinda hard to find your posts in all this mess). But anyway, you started out with something - which I refuted not soon after, and now you've done nothing but spew petty insults.

>>4952026
>sir

>Myths spread through various cultures
>Therefore all myth is meaningless

Y'all niggas are fucking dumb. Read some Joseph Campbell. The reason these tropes reappear in various mythic stories is because they have certain connotations and significance you ignorant swine.

>>4952010
the best analysis I've read

>>4952029
I could install a swimming pool in my back yard. That would make it a swimming pool.

>>4952676
>you can't just believe something because it feels good
Well, what's stopping you?

>>4952141
I say a lot of things when I'm fucked up, as well. Why doesn't anyone care about the translations and the localizations? After two millinia it would be a wonder that the meanings of these words didn't change or have different signifiers.

>>4952548
I don't even know what fedora tippers are supposed to represent any more?

>>4952142
Add 9 to 11 and you get 9/11
COINCIDENCE?

>>4952182
>what's christmas?

Not a Christfag but, by the looks of this thread, we'll be killing each other for another 5000 years. Great. Guess I know what to prepare my kids for.

>>4953586
>by the looks of this thread
You can't actually see anything by this thread. Religion is on the way out going by historical trends.

Other forces may actually kill us off before 5000 years though. If not, and we survive, I doubt religions as we see them today will be a factor that far out.

>>4953636
Come now, you know deep down that man will never develop or evolve beyond his need for religion. Even those who profess to have no religion do in fact have one, it's just that their rituals are hidden even from themselves, and their gods are subtle things.

>>4951910
amen

>>4953650
Traditions, no matter how old, don't last forever.

>>4953636
>Religion is on the way out
>going by historical trends
It's good you lump all this shitposting under an easily recognized sigil.

>>4953636
And you know right when religion is almost completely gone is when the Jesus will return to this earth to save his people from the atheistic antichrists.

>>4953698
Ah, a difference of opinion. Hi.

>>4953705
Hilarious.

>>4953724
The truth will set you free.

>>4953695
And yet, in another thread you said that human beings will always be predisposed to violence. At least have some consistency.

>>4953754
Did I? Do you have it screen capped or something? They'll always be capable of violence, but we can learn to not do it.

>>4953733
It sure did. Feel good, mang.

>>4953814

>>4953851
>Mfw
What NFW borad will I make this pronouncement on?
It's still Friday here.

>>4953874
god i hate you so very very much. the board is shit tonight, but you're still just the very very worst. i don't know why you feel the need to post that picture when you just go and fucking delete it anyway, you piece of shit.

>>4953874
Guess. :3

>>4953733
>>4953754
>>4953814
>>4953851
>>4953874
>>4953886
>>4953895
samefag

>>4953919

>>4953922
it was a joke

>>4953886
I'm sowwy.
I agree. Kind of dull tonight.
[pic] I'll leave it up if you like it that much.

>>4953895
>/pol/
I try to put an (A) in the subject every post. Oddly enough they lack the anarchy symbol

>>4951910
27"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

>>4953886
HOLY SHIT BUTTERFLY IS AN UGLY TURK

>>4954451
>ugly turk younger than 30
Not possible.

>>4954451
Quite the... Revelation

>>4954451
how did you get that she is a Türk from that picture?

>>4951910
Sure, why the fuck not. My greatest enemies are a society that doesn't even know I fucking exist whilst still somehow having more power over my life than I've ever been afforded. I can just as easily love as I can hate the nebulousness of that kind of shit basically making me one of the most worthless people on the planet, apparently.

Though I'll have to get in line first; it's not like I'm a special case.

>>4954535
Why take part in a society that as a whole you consider your enemy? Why not just go live in the mountains and enjoy nature, or something like that?

That's what I want to do, and I do know why I don't: I'm scared. I consider this society my enemy, too, but I've been taught from the start to finish college, get a 9-to-five job, buy a house, and take part. Part of my does love my enemy, this society.

Note: this post was partly rambling to myself. It helps me to see my own thoughts in words on a screen.