/lit/ - Literature

*sigh*
It's not actually real, it's like wrestling. You know that wrestling isn't real, right? Not unlike your parents' love for each other.

It's a tough question and I'm not entirely certain on the answer to it, so you should probably do more research on this.

But basically: the whole Christian conception of Lucifer as the devil, as a fallen angel, as the ruler of hell, etc - that whole thing is mostly extra-biblical. In the Bible you can find hell, and you can find the existence of devils and spirits, and you can find the tempter, and you can find Satan - but they don't link up the way they do in Christian mythology. They certainly don't in the OT, which had a rather different vision of everything even from the NT vision. So, in other words, you can't evaluate it in those terms.

Ultimately, the answer is probably that God is ineffable, and that all of being as such is His dominion. But yeah, it's weird.

That was Satan's thing early on. Satan was one of God's buds in heaven and his job was to try to make you hate the shit out of God and stray from your love and devotion to God.
The purpose of your life on earth is to show that you love God no matter WHAT happens

>>5086543
pretty sure the purpose is to kill as many sinners as you can

>>5086519
Yes.

It's all quite literal. It's the first book of the bible penned, and likely took place during the time of Abraham.

Job is a remarkable person.

The relationship between God and Satan has always been between God and a tool God uses for God's own ends. They are not equals. They are not equally powerful.

Satan was asking for permission to hurt one of God's people, who was protected by God, and God allowed it, under changing conditions.

There is a poignant moment when Jesus tells His disciples that He saw Satan fall from the sky like lightning; I always read that with a bit of longing or sadness on Jesus' part. After all, He had made Satan to be good. The best angel created. The leader of the Assembly of Angels.

But it wasn't good enough for Satan, and he fell, losing the most ill conceived coup in the history of the universe.

>>5086527
Wrestling is real, they do get hurt sometimes, but my parent's marriage is a sham, I agree.

>>5086533
I'm not totally sure what to think of the whole war of the heavens thing either, since I was taught that angels do not have free will and are servants of God. Yet in Job, God basically gives Satan permission to fuck with Job, but at the same time, doesn't seem to know what are where Satan has been or what he's up to as he's cruising around earth, in almost the same passage. Satan seems to have free will, yet not so.

I get the fallen angel bit isn't always orthodox.

>>5086543
This kind of makes sense, but this falling out with God and Lucifer and his rebel angels happened before this thing with Job, I think. It happened before Genesis if I remember right. Unless Satan was sort of an outside contractor to God and did malevolent shit on God's behalf?

I read God basically had killed Job's entire family of 10 kids, party animals and sinners that they were, which seems a tad out of touch with New Testiment God.

I dunno, Book of Job is fucking strange. Who wrote this, supposedly?

>>5086597
Angels obviously have free will, as Satan of his own volition rebelled against God. Whether the 1/3 of the angels under him were under his authority and automatically fell with him is different. The bible speaks of the Great Dragon, Satan, pulling the stars out of the sky with his tail; literally dragging the angels down to earth against their will.

However, there is clearly no plan of salvation for angels; Satan and his horde are all headed for the Lake of Fire.

Why in the world would you expect the Bible to be consistent in any way, it's pretty much a collection of random Jewish books.

>>5086605
>this is how Biblical hermeneutics in America look like

>>5086609
Probably by understanding it. It's consistent in all ways, and its compilation is not random, nor were all the authors Jewish.

Job predates Abraham, for instance. You know, in this thread.

>>5086613
Yes, unsoiled by centuries of pagan worship of Mary.

>>5086613
You know what? You tell me which part of this doesn't appear in your non-American bible, okay mate?

Revelation 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

Christians have gone full pomo: my truth is how I feel, it needn't be argued, it's just my perspective. Tendentious atheists are awful, but Christianity is truly gone as a stance, it scatters like cockroaches in the face of light.

As for Satan, he was not evil until Christianity; in Judaism, he's just a DA out to antagonize humanity, but because God is a fair judge he's employed.

>>5086591
Job does have an almost Christ-like quality to him.

Interesting note, Sinjar Mountain in norther Iraq is supposed to be the place Lucifer fell to earth. It's a huge mountain in an otherwise vast flat plain, geologically out of place.

What always made me wonder about the war of the heavens... why did Lucifer think he had chance at a coup? 1/3rd of all of God's angels followed him, too. What was the primary disagreement or grievance? If it was just Lucifer's arrogance, why did he have such a huge army of angels on his side?

Satan in the Book of Job is just an angel that is skeptical of Job's righteousness; the word means "the accuser/adversary", after all.

>>5086627
Posted directly after biblical authority for my prior post.

Satan was evil the moment rebellion crossed his heart, and he uttered the first lie, making him the Father of Lies:

Isaiah 14
The Fall of Lucifer
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[b] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

>>5086597
Again, the simplest explanation here is to simply throw out the whole rigamarole about fallen angels and war in Heaven. Especially since it has no real Biblical support, and since you don't NEED it - you can still believe in hell, and evil, and the devil as much as you want without it.

>>5086623
That is quite a thin reed on which to base an entire theological position, mate.

>>5086636
Lucifer was not synonymous with Satan until Christianity.

>>5086605
>The bible speaks of the Great Dragon, Satan, pulling the stars out of the sky with his tail; literally dragging the angels down to earth against their will.

by the same logic everybody who followed moses through the desert didn't have a free will either

you still can make people follow you regardless if they have a free will or not

btw that star falling scene occurs in the last days and not in the first when angels actually fell so you possibly use a wrong analogy

>>5086519
What I always found strange as well, is that Angels were basically slaves made to worship god etc., while humans were given free will. If this is the case how could an angel like Lucifer or Satan whatever name could "rebel" in the first place if by design it wasn't made that way?

>>5086631
I see it tactically; he was outnumbered 2:1 by angels alone, and had no plan by which he could take out God. It was doomed to fail from its inception, and it could not even be hidden from God, Who knows the end from the beginning.

Job did a remarkable thing; he logically inferred that God must send mankind a Mediator if God and Man are to exist together. That if a man, him, had a grievance, a petition, to lay at God's feet, that God Himself must provide the means by which a man could do that.

Otherwise, how do you sue God? What court can hold Him? What restraints can you put Him under? How can you collect from Him?

Job was a righteous man in a time when righteousness was before the Law; in a time when men ran their lives by their consciences.

And Job not only made sacrifices to God, but he made extra sacrifices on behalf of his children, lest any of them accidentally sin and garner God's wrath.

There's another mountain in the Arabian Gulf, I don't recall exactly, that's burned black at the top. The locals call it "Moses' Mountain". It is said to be the original Mt. Sinai where God appeared at the top of the mountain, with great thunder and lightning. The mountain is literally topped with scorched rock, that nobody seems able to account for.

Except the bible, of course.

The book of Job is a ancient folk tale incorporated into the bible. It is probably the oldest part of the bible and it is far from consistent with most of the other stories and depiction of judaism

>>5086633
Satan, an angel, fallen from heaven, now the devil, sought to destroy Job.

And what Satan wrought for evil against God, God turned to twice the prior blessings for Job. And all of Job's slain children were reunited with Job in heaven.

>>5086647
>Angels were basically slaves made to worship god
Because that isn't true.

>>5086637
Not really, no.

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

>>5086642
Lucifer is a latin word, and the bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, with a little Aramaic thrown in, mostly in quotes from Babylon.

The angel we call Lucifer is Satan is the Father of Lies is the Dragon is the Great Dragon is the Adversary is the Accuser of the Brethren; he is a liar, and a thief, and a murderer, from the beginning of the world, and he has a demonic host at his beck and call which, if it were not restrained, would rain hell down upon your unprotected head.

Two things you have failed to do. Know your enemy, and properly estimate your enemy.

He is Satan. He is smarter than you, more clever than you, more powerful than you, and he never rests, never sleeps, never stops trying to destroy any he can, while he yet can. He is a roaring lion; a wounded lion, dangerous, because he knows his end is near.

This would be true even if there were no "religions".

>>5086597
>which seems a tad out of touch with New Testiment God.
New Testament God and Old Testament God are a completely different set of cards, man
Even God at a few points in the Old Testament seems to change a bit

>Who wrote this, supposedly?
The guys in charge of writing shit. The guys who ran the temple and other religious entities, Rabbis, but I forget if they were Rabbis back then or called something else, or just scholars. The old testament was sort of the same type of thing that that Talmud is, just crap important Jewish scholars wrote and was accepted by the Jewry of the time.

>>5086646
No, the bit you're missing is that Jesus is God, and created the universe, including Satan.

The very Satan who tempted Jesus in the wilderness.

Satan knows very well who Jesus is, and trembles in fear even at His name. Satan offered Jesus the earth, but Jesus refused the offer, and refused to bow down to the angel He created.

It was not a close call.

The people following Moses actually died several times in rebellion against Moses; the ground swallowed up Korah and his rebellious family, and friends, and at other times as well. Further, God offered Moses to be the new patriarch, and to slaughter all of those who walked on dry ground through the Sea. Moses refused the offer.

This is the same God I know.

This is the same God I want you to meet.

>>5086533

>Satan is the ruler of hell

are you 12

>>5086654
If Satan fell from heaven, how did he get back in? Why would God wager with someone he knows has evil intentions?
>And all of Job's slain children were reunited with Job in heaven.
But there was no heaven for Job, the patriarchs, or prophet. At least at the time.

>>5086519

'Satan' means 'adversary'. Usually this is interpreted as being the adversary of Man, not of God.

Job may well be the oldest book in the canon and you shouldn't necessarily bring conceptions about terminology founded on later texts to interpreting it.

If you're not reading the original Hebrew manuscripts you're doing it wrong. The differences between them and the versions everyone reads is astounding. Here's an example from Genesis.

What you've likely read
>In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


What it's actually supposed to say.
>in·beginning he-created Elohim the·heavens and the·earth and·the·earth she-became chaos and·vacancy and·darkness surfaces-of abyss and·spirit-of Elohim vibrating over surfaces-of the·waters and·he-is-saying Elohim he-shall-become light and·he-is-becoming light
and·he-is-seeing Elohim the·light that good and·he-is-cseparating Elohim between the·light and·between the·darkness

You'll notice some key differences there. The biggest one obviously is the perspective that God is becoming each part of creation in the original manuscript. He wasn't creating something outside of himself. Creation is part of God itself.

>>5086690
That nigga Satan sure sounds badass as hell. Is there a way we can meet him ?

>>5086688
There is only One God.

That One God made two (more, actually, but for the sake of your point, two) covenants with mankind.

The first, God chose a people, the Hebrews, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and took them to be His people. He gave them the Law and the sacrificial system by which they could be holy, and He could literally live with them.

In the wilderness, God was the overcasting shadow by day, and the pillar of fire by night. That was God. The light in the Holy of Holies was God. The light lived on the top of the Ark of the Covenant, and while it remained, the world trembled in fear when the small, few, and weak Hebrews marched their way, for they knew one thing:

There was a living God in Israel.

Soon, men will know this to be true.

That the living God has returned to Israel.

>>5086663
Revelations 12 is part of John of Patmos' ecstatic prophecy, not John's account of the origins of evil or anything like that.

Ezekiel 28:13-19 ESV / 93 helpful votes

You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.

Isaiah 14:12-15 ESV / 71 helpful votes

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

>>5086705
>Is there a way we can meet him ?
Yes, by listening to jazz and rock, smoking pot and reading European magazines

>>5086693
He lost his estate; he has not lost access. The third heaven is where God and the angels dwell, and satan still has access to the throne room. He does not, however, have a home there anymore, nor does he have any official duties. He's now just a snitch, going to the Father and snitching on christians. That's what he's degraded himself to. And yes, he can do both; snitch in heaven, and destroy here, as here and there do not run on the same time and space continuum.

In the near future, satan will lose his privileges in heaven, and be bound with chains for a thousand years. He will be loosed for a short time thereafter to again gather people who hate God together in another war against Jesus in Israel, and will again lose, and this time be cast into the Lake of Fire, a pitch black containment vessel for fallen angels, and whatever men follow satan or are separated from God.

This is all coming true right before your eyes, but you need your eyes opened. This is about your life, but you're the walking dead. You have no life in you.

You must find out how to be alive, to be born again; you must find out how to be saved, to be adopted by God; you must do these things, to the uttermost priority of your very being.

Or you will stay dead, die the second death, and hear nothing but screams forever.

>>5086722
I thought we'd had figured more traditional ways of hanging out with the nigga. He's been around for quite some time, as they say.

>>5086705
Yes. Stay an unrepentant sinner, refuse to believe Jesus is the living Son of God, don't believe Jesus rose from the dead, and you will be cast into the very same lake of fire that God prepared for the fallen angels, i.e. hellfire.

There is nothing of God there, so no light. Just black flames. So, you won't really be able to seek him out. You'll just be suspended in fire, where the fire never goes out, and you never die, and you never get used to the flames. You'll bump into other screaming beings; maybe in infinity you'll bump into satan an infinite number of times.

If you want Jesus to baptize you with fire, this is what is in your future, whether you believe in it or not.

>>5086719
No.

Revelation 22

A Warning

18 For[i] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[j] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book[l] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

>>5086637
Well in the Bible, it implies a war in heaven, Jesus talking about him and having conversations with the dude.

>>5086648
Yeah, how would you petition God, except through his angels? Especially before Christ. Why did Lucifer rebel though? Why was he so cool with God when they talked about Job? They say Satan is Lord of the World, he owns earth. He knows prophecy, knows he will lose the final battle, why does he resist still? Is Satan and his army an individual enemy of God or is he actually working in God's will anyway?

>>5086653
This would make sense, if only I could know where it originated. I know Christian doctrine absorbed a shittton of pagan doctrine along the way, Easter and Christmas and all. I suspect the war in heaven originated with some Jewish shit that got in doctrine somehow.

>>5086737
Jack Chick, is that you?

>>5086720
Ezekiel 28:11-12
Again the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God...

Isaiah 14:3-4
And it will be in the day when the Lord gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this [b]taunt against the king of Babylon, and say...

So you've proved pretty well that the "king or prince blessed by God who turns his back and rebels out of haughty pride" topos is in the Bible, but again, that's not really a theological justification for the existence of Satan as a fallen angel. The verses you're citing have totally different contexts.

>>5086741
What? That doesn't even come close to justifying the view that Revelations 12 is an account of the war in heaven leading to Lucifer's fall as a fallen angel. If anything, Revelations 22 only confirms that Revelations as a whole is a book of prophecy.

Damn, people who read the Bible literally freak the fuck out of me. You never know if they don't decide to shoot up a school or something one day.

>>5086742
There is a war in heaven; the angels are at war, and so are we.

This is Gabriel talking:

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

The fight is on, and the battlefield is the earth. As with all wars, the kings communicate; however, in this war, the outcome is not uncertain. Only your role in that outcome.

Which side are you on? There are only two.

You are either For Jesus, or you are Against Jesus.

Pick this day, and join the battle.

>>5086742
Being the #1 angel apparently wasn't good enough for Satan; he wanted to place his throne above God's throne, his house above God's house, and be worshiped as God.

He still wants that today. He still wants to be worshiped as God.

I don't know if that's a delusion he has, or an aspiration, or some sort of angelic curse, but he is, from the biblical account, intractable.

>>5086698
>> as being the adversary of Man, not of God

This is new to me, I've always understood Satan to be the adversary of God, not just the adversary of Man.

What explains the differences in character with Satan and God between books? I read in the Old Testament God turned into a bear and fucking sliced open a bunch of little kids or something. Now Satan is the hated enemy of God one book, and great buddies with God in another.

That's interesting and something to think about, though. The oldest book in the bible...

>>5086750
No, I can't draw for squat. I'd say Jack Chick will be well rewarded for all of his tracts that led so many people to renounce their old lives, and become christians.

>>5086754
My mistake. I had thought by your post it was your intent to remove part of the Book of the Revelation through some sort of "ecstasy" or "drug" or "mental condition" John was suffering, and that portion was not properly in the bible.

The warning says otherwise. I'm glad it was unnecessary.

>>5086755
Right?

It always freaks me out how we have a huge population in America where people say everyday with smiles

"If the ghost in my head tells me to kill, I will"

>>5086755
You mean like pot smoking, beta male atheists? You think christians are going to compete with all of those school shooters one day?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

My own daughter's high school was shot up by a pot smoking beta male atheist; I know first hand how deadly they are.

>>5086681
>Lucifer (/ˈluːsJfər/ or /ˈljuːsJfər/) is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12.[1] This word, transliterated hêlêl[1] or heylel,[2] occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible[1]

>>5086519
>I was reading through Job
No you weren't you edgy piece of shit.

It was metaphorical about how shit happens to everyone, and you can't blame God if your shit gets wrecked, because you're still only human in a vast uncaring universe.

>>5086766
>No, I can't draw for squat.

Neither can Chick.

>>5086765
There was a group of young men threatening to kill one of God's prophets. They weren't making fun of him for being bald; they were, but that wasn't their sin. Their sin was the "Go up! Go up!" to Elisha, indicating they had murder in their hearts, as Elijah, his predecessor, was taken from the world in a fiery chariot.

God sent a bear down to kill that mob, and protect his prophet.

I love me a God who keeps a bear handy.

>>5086763
That's neat.

But in the book of Job, he is having a normal-ass conversation with God while hanging out in heaven. Seems such a weird dichotomy.

Why is Satan rebelling? Why does he tempt people to sin? Why does he want worship? Why did so many angels follow him to hell to fight for him?

>>5086780
It never occurs in the Hebrew bible. Ever. Their word is HaShatan or something like that. Lucifer is a latin word, and was translated well after the OT was published.

The definition you're chasing down is "shining one"; the bible refers to satan as a "son of the morning". He was a good angel, an angel of light, but he fell.

He remains beautiful today; he can appear as an angel of light today, or, as is usually the case, he can appear as Mary.

>>5086783
My stick men have five legs.

What's your beef with Jack Chick? Isn't he just a typical born again evangelical christian, trying to get you to see the error of your ways, and be saved?

>>5086756
Again, nothing in Daniel 10-12 (which, again, is prophetic) indicates that there's war amongst the angels. There's certainly a struggle between good and evil - a struggle, as Paul says in Ephesians, not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. But nothing in that indicates that specific cosmology of armies of angels fighting armies of fallen angels.

>>5086770
No, no, no.

I do think it was ecstatic, but that doesn't necessitate removing it from the Bible or discounting it. It was an ecstatic, mystical, prophetic experience, which is something that's very much a part of Christianity. I am disagreeing with your interpretation. I think it's a prophetic account of things to come, probably in some sense symbolic or metaphorical. That doesn't mean it's not true, of course. But I don't think it's historical.

>>5086627
You're a tendentious atheist, Feminister.

You know what's a great movie? 2 Guns. I love it.

>>5086795
His rebellion is an attempt to overthrow God, and be God.

He tempts people to sin, so that they are damaged, and depressed, and sinners, and so by definition lost sinners. So that by condemning those humans to hell, he hurts God, whose will it is that none should perish, but all come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Everyone wants to be worshiped. Rock stars are worshiped. Astronauts are worshiped. Soccer players are worshiped. Worship is an integral part of our psyche; we all crave it. It's also power over those who worship you, which is also a natural craving. We all want to be God.

There wasn't really a fight at the beginning; Satan's "I will" crossed his heart, sin was found in him, and he was exiled. On the spot. I think he dragged the angels under his authority down with him; I'm not sure they ever had a choice in the matter. If they chose to fight, being outnumbered 2 to 1, and having as their opposing generals Michael and Gabriel, two sword wielding archangels, and their general is Lucifer, basically the choir director, they chose poorly.

You can keep stringing words together, Feminister, but you know I'm right, :D

>>5086802
It's historical the way many things in the bible are historical; God said they would happen in the future, and so are as set as though they happened in the past.

John was whisked from his time, 95 ADish, to our future, and shown the end game, and then whisked back. There is no doubt in my mind that every word he wrote is inspired by the Holy Spirit, Who brings into all of the authors of the bible everything in remembrance.

"I gotta plan. It's a good plan. Make it rain".
Straight Fucking Baller. Bobby Beans

Anywho, I'm out. Let me leave you with my favorite part of Job.

That even the most righteous of us, that even the smartest of us, that even the most wronged of us, even with the most cause against God for injustice, when we, like Job, are confronted with a living God, we will throw ourselves at His feet and beg for mercy, seeing ourselves as the worms that we truly are.

And the most helpful line in Job I find to be "Shall we just accept good from God, and not evil?"

>>5086786
>God sent a bear down to kill that mob, and protect his prophet.

Yeah, that was all pretty fucking sweet, tbh.

>>5086781
I was actually reading Job. I'm not a believer, I read the bible to understand how people think, it's my 'job' haha. Job is fucking weird and out of place and I don't know what to think of it.

God was totally behind everything Job was suffering. He was using Satan for this, but God intended this, as a silly game, a bet with Satan to prove a point to him.

Of course, if your shit is wrecked in life, you've nobody to blame but yourself.

>>5086800
>What's your beef with Jack Chick?

I have none. But all his characters look like they were drawn from pictures of famous people.

>>5086821
>His rebellion is an attempt to overthrow God, and be God.

That seems really dumb, though.

>i'm going to rebel against an omnipotent being

I mean, best of luck, you know?

>>5086821
What does Satan gain by fucking up mortal souls?

Is it that he has lost the war and spites his enemy with a 'scorched earth' policy, by fucking up the world and ruining the souls of mortal man?

It's said Lucifer is the king of the world, he rules earth. Every falsehood, every religion, philosophy, political ideology, is the written word of Satan. Why does God tolerate Satan running rampant and fucking everything up?

Or is Satan just a pawn in God's plan for the universe?

>>5086873
None of that shit is in the Bible, dude

A liar,thief and murderer Accuser of the Brethen professor and Great Dragon Adversary was teaching a class on Nachash, known tempter.

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Me and accept that that my rebellion was the most splendid and righteous deed the Heaven have ever known, even greater than the creation of Man !”

At this moment, a faithful, humble, loving Christian zealot who had read more than 15000 pages of theology and liturgy and understood the Immaculata Conceptio of the Virgin Mary and fully supported all traditionam eschatology stood up and held up the New Testament.

”How redempting is this Holy text, Fallenfag ?"

The arrogant angel smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied “It's not redempting at all, fucking Christian, its 'truth' is rooted in the tyranny of your 'God', the pettyness of His priests and the dripping sentimentality of His teachings.”

”Wrong. It’s been 2014 years since the Christ died and was reborn. If it was not apologetic, and unrestrained hedonism, as you say, is gratifying… then it should be regarded as a false news now”


The Roaring Lion was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Anitchrist. He stormed out of the room crying those sulphurous mephitic tears. There is no lack of faith that at this point our seducer, Satan/Lucifer/Mephisto/whatever, wished he had pulled himself up by his hoofboots and become more than an damnation-striken failed god interested in killing poor folk's children for no reason at all but with God's agreement. He witched so much that he had some kind of love to hold on to, but he himself had schemed to warp it !

The students chanted and all enlisted into the Roman Catholic Church that day and accepted Christ as their lord and Saviour. A lamb named “the Son of Man” clopped into the room and started grazing the pages of the Apocalypse before someone embarassedly stopped him. The last letter of each Evangelist was read in three differents languages to make sure nobody understood, and Saint Peter himself descended and taught that hedonism is no good way to make big houses out of stone.

The Accuser lost his backdoor entrance to Heaven and wassent (again) to Hell the next day. He died the second death in the Lake of Fire and his "lies" were disproven for all eternity.


>>5086627
>Christians have gone full pomo: my truth is how I feel, it needn't be argued, it's just my perspective.

This stance dates back from the Middle Age.

>>5086854
That's pretty hilarious thanks.

>>5086878
Naw, bro, some of that shit is in the Bible.

Right? I get told Satan is the ruler of the world.

I'm like you, I don't trust anything told to me outside the bible.

I don't even trust the bible, let alone teaching and doctrine outside of it.

My main sort of question is, What the fuck is Satan? Who the fuck is he? Why and how does he resist God? What is the relationship between Satan, God, Mankind? Why does Satan even exist? Why can't God control this environment of Earth? How does he struggle? Satan is God's adversary, does this mean Satan could win?

Hey fuckers, tell me about the war in heaven!

>>5086798
I've been taught the Cult of Mary is Satanic.

The only personification of God people should concern themselves with is Jesus, yet Mary draws this huge followship, shrines and everything in Catholic religions.

How would God think of this? Why do Catholic priests abstain from sex and marriage (supposedly!) when nothing in the bible says those who minister or preach the word should abstain?

The doctrines that are not founded in the Bible make me wonder the most. Who fucking thought this shit up?

OP here, thanks for everyone who posted, I really didn't think I could have an intellectual discussion of the Bible and it's hilarious bullshit on 4chan without spam and bullshit. I thank you faggots sincerely for this.

Do Americans really swear that much in casual conversation? What a bunch of tryhards.

>>5087256
Yeah, we fucking do, sorry, holy fucking shit, blame the goddamn fucking media or something.

>>5086565
pretty sure the point of science is to torture as many apes as you can find

>>5086636
>tfw when you're satan

>>5086854
That's not Jack Chick that's Fred Carter, his "good artist".

If you know Chick exclusively for his tracts, I cannot recommend his colour comics strongly enough, especially The Broken Cross, Spellbound, and Sabotage.

>>5086690
um wrong bud.
Satan who tempted Jesus was tempting Jesus the man, admit that you're a man, play my game, and I will give you everything you want as a man.

Jesus was like lel, whilst I am a man, i'm also a God, gtfo

>>5086648
>There's another mountain in the Arabian Gulf, I don't recall exactly, that's burned black at the top. The locals call it "Moses' Mountain". It is said to be the original Mt. Sinai where God appeared at the top of the mountain, with great thunder and lightning. The mountain is literally topped with scorched rock, that nobody seems able to account for.
Do you know the official name of this mountain, or have any sources? This is interesting.

>>5086690
God sounds like a fucking dick.

Why wouldn't people rebel against him in earnest?

>>5087313
he's the totality bro
you can't be on the other side of god

>>5087313
It generally ends poorly.

People will anyway though, and they're right to.

>>5087333
nope, they fight him because they're out of whack with him, and are dumb and immature

>>5087320
You can though, who the the fuck wants their entire life and existence being observed by some omnipotent entity? It's totalitarianism, and people fucking loathe that.

Can you believe that every awful thing you/ve ever seen or done is watched and recorded? How fucking shitty is a life when everything you do is judged and recorded like a supernatural NSA?

I can see why angels would righteously revolt against such a paradigm.

>>5087313
Because he's family

>>5087359
But God doesn't care about that, he's a total bro.

Unless you're one of those dirty, dirty Catholics.

>>5087374
>>5087381
Oh kay, but God will send everyone to hell that isn't one of his bros, after the final war.

Catholics sure have some bullshit doctrine though.

God is a total dick though, billions of people will go to hell, moral and not get cast into a lake of fire with Satan.

>>5087381


>protestants

>>5087359
god doesn't observe you, you are god observing yourself. omnipotence is equal to pure light of god, even the stinky bits are 'diamonds' in the totality of existence. omnipotence in the sense of turning the earth into a burrito is completely meaningless and comes from lack of understanding.

you can only create the illusion of being separate from god (reality) and natural laws. you submit and you're free - you raise arms and you're more trapped then ever (in a hell of your own creation).

>watched and recorded
you want to walk around and do what you want without consequence? what evil shit do you want to do?

>>5087350
If you accept the world as it is, you're the one whos dumb and immature.

God doesn't even exist anyway, so its a moot point.

>>5087359
Totalitarianism refers to political power and doesn't translate well into matters of ontology.

If God were just some all powerful all knowing dude, then yeah, it would be totalitarianism, but study a little theology and you find that God's position in the universe is such because of His absolute ontological necessity.

Fallen finite beings are selves which dislike receptivity and dependence but need the realization that they are dependent and must be receptive to outside help.

The whole concept of hell is those who will not be helped (more or less)

>>5087439
why wouldn't you accept what's clearly happening? do you like lying to yourself? do you live in a fantasy world?

>>5087459
this is actually a major problem with people, has always been - not being present and accepting enough to see what's happening in front of them

>>5087292
Oh please

>>5086646
>btw that star falling scene occurs in the last days and not in the first
Do you even ut supra sic infra?

My favorite part is how at the end God's like "Yo Job it's all cool brotha. Ima give you a new family so no worries!"

>>5087428
Bro, I don't do any anything evil. I have my own standards of morality, and I take it seriously, admittedly based off of Christian ideals.

That said I'm libertarian, in philosophy and everything.

>>5087245
If you want to understand the relationship between Catholics and Mary, you should really read a book about it by a Catholic.

One that is really rooted in biblical references is Hail, Holy Queen by Scott Hahn.

I converted to Catholicism from protestantism and that book explained a lot of the Mary stuff.

Long story short, Catholics don't worship Mary or the saints or angels. Mary is only great because Jesus made her great (saved by grace, though differently), and there is an ancient traditional relationship between a Jewish king and his mother, where the mother of the king is often an intermediary in terms of petitions and is even referred to as the definitive queen (if memory serves correct) because of the possibility of multiple wives.

Hence, Catholics pray to Mary because she has a unique relationship with Jesus.

>>5087410
>building a stairway to heaven
>not having faith in Jesus
Ok Thomas

>>5086631
>>5087292
First mountain is part of a mountain chain, second one isn't all scorched at the top, and have levels from different ocean depths building up to the top. You can even look at pictures of "Mount Sinai" all over the place. People can pretend the rocks are all scorched and charred, but no one is really saying that.

>>5086728
Dude stop this isn't even Christianity. If your founder wants to invent his own new religion, fine, I mean, what else were we going to do with all that uninhabited desert? But at least have the courtesy to acknowledge that it's theologically something different from Christianity.

>>5086741
I wish the LDShitposter in this thread would address how the Book of Mormon, PoGP, etc, can coexist with that passage which very clearly and explicitly says "anyone who follows any scriptures newer than this one is damned."

>>5087381

>>5087515
>being too retarded to recognize the Petrine supremacy

>>5087538
heh

There are people on earth RIGHT NOW who aren't Catholic sedevacantists

>>5087532
Yeah, the bible is pretty is explicit with this. Nothing after it is truth, including Islam.

>>5087548
Wow, weird, I had been reading about sede vacante just this afternoon.

>>5087559
At least the compilers of the Quran had the decency not to include the parts of the Bible that explicitly forbade "derivative works." The mormons include the bible in its entirety in their critical cannon, which I just cannot understand.

>>5087582
People are talking more and more about it recently because of Pope Francis

>>5087497
>libertarian
that explains -everything-

>>5087459
Its about accepting the world as far as you must to lucidly realize exactly the way it is.

Then you change it.

Christians are the ones living in a fantasy world thinking anything justifies the way it is.

>>5087604
Pfft, what's that mean?

I love freedom, I think it brings the best from everyone, I loathe despotism and hate totalitarianism. I can't get religion that mimics such shit, that pattern of command and punishment for shit that really should not mean anything to a omnipotent or all knowing God.

>>5087600
No, it's because they're wankers.

>>5087600
What's he done? I have sedevacantist friends and they don't recognize any pope since Vatican 2.

>>5087685
i'm just you might find more like minded people on >>>/reddit/

absolutist freedom advocated by libtards is a spook, any non-autistic child will realise there are connections (or chains in the libtards views) that are worth upholding

>>5087708
Actually, I have some kind of autism, and I still cling to authoritarianism. In fact I've found that many others do as well (the whole "a benevolent dictator would solve everything" contingent, popular with autistics).

So libtards are just plain dumb.

>People talking seriously about Hell like it isn't the most retarded concept in all of history
>People trying to get me to "love" a fictional sociopath with patronizing threats

Maximum dreck

>>5087733
>>>/reddit/ bro

your sharp intellect didn't just break through a concept that's been used for 1000s of years

>tfw your face is the maximum dreck

>>5087708
Whatever, man, I'm talking in the Judeo-Christian sense of morality, absolute anarchy fuck-yeah freedom is not what I advocate or mean.

>>5086701
Is there any sort of translation that captures more of the style you posted in the the second part?

This one time in this place with cobblestone streets the workers who laid the cobblestone stripped the electrical insulation under the surface. If you walked over it shoeless you got a staggering buzz. My dad sent me out to harass the workers who fucked up the electrical so I stood on the ground and when a worker walked by I asked him over. I gestured to shake his hand and when he did and got a nasty shock I exclaimed; "I am the devil". He said no; that's electricity. A French Canadian woman next door kept freaking out saying we would electrocute ourselves. !

Mind you that's how religion works when you're 10. When you're an adult you know that shits staged.

>>5087749
Oh shut the fuck up and go back to /pol/. If god is "the alpha and the omega" and hell exists then he's a psychotic faggot with control issues damning countless billions over events he engineered before their species was created. If he's -not- an all knowing, malevolent fuck who tempted Eve and then promptly punished everyone ever, none of it is true.

Christians even wish hell on -other christians- for not being the "right kind" of christian. You are a pathetic excuse for a human. I would call you a joke but this level of sad delusion is far from funny.

>>5087800
I met 'the devil' in the Army, 2006 during the battle of Ar Ramadi who claimed to me in private to be Satan incarnate. The Bn col in command of our taskforce. Said he 'took opportunity' with this officer and ditched his soul to do his own work.

This colonel ordered wrong coordinates to a mortar team, they ended up killing a family in their house. Since then, apparently the man gave his life and soul up, to be an instrument of 'The Devil'. Said he took this officer's soul and was using it only because he was interested in destroying Islamic militants.

Sounds fucking dumb, but I'm not a religious person, but when a Lt col tells you this shit in private and smiles about it, I'm just telling you what he told me.

Ar Ramadi was taken when months of Marine Corps occupation failed. We took that shit apart, block by block, mind by mind, street by street. I shot and killed two AIF on OP, some faggots pushing IEDs on the road, I smoked them from a CROWS system in my OP. This guy, he came to my hooch hours later and brought me a tray of food, woke me up from a dead sleep and thanked me personally. How the fuck he knew what I did or where I lived in that shitty place, have no idea.

Some bat-shit insane people in the military, myself included.

>>5087849
Maybe you shouldn't have been invading their country to secure opium poppies and Israel's interests. You fucking piece of garbage.

>Yfw the VA doesn't give a fuck about you

Hahahaha "thanks for your service!"™

>>5086627
dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

christianity has been stripped down to its essence, which is exactly what it needed

>>5087875
If you legitimately believe one person ever was born and died differently than everyone else in existence, and that you can telepathically communicate with him so he'll hook you up in his clubhouse and punish all those mean ol' meanies out there, you should be locked away.

>>5087600
They're complete shitheaps. Francis is as true a Catholic as Benedict and John Paul II, and every other pope since John XXIII.

Sedevacantists are just asshurt because the God told the Church to modernize and they didn't like it. You won't find a truer example of Satanists in all the world.

>>5087256
You're British aren't you? I would swear that the lot of you were castrated if somehow you didn't keep breeding.

>>5087883
The Catholic church has the archives of the planet under lock and key, performs mass blood rituals, and speaks latin. If you believe in "the devil" and are catholic you are too stupid to even be alive.

>>5087849
Shit, son, I think you may have met the Devil, no lie. This is some /x/ shit.

>>5087871
Opium in Iraq? Get your shit straight, faggot.

Israel's interests? Absolutely. The sole and only purpose of that war. Fuck it, dude, we all play a part and we don't have any fucking choice in it in the end.

Like I give a fuck anyways, this is my profession, I need no justification. You need a moral justification to flip burgers or make change at your place of employment?

Doubt it. You do your job because you are paid to, like anybody else.

>>5087891
>Believing this story

Yep, this whole thread is some /x/ shit.

This thread makes satan seem like a pretty cool guy. I'm not going to start a new thread but I wasn't raised around Christianity and I'd like to read more about this satan character. He seems like one of the most dynamic, passionate fellows in Christian mythology. Is there a condensed version of the bible that focuses mainly on his exploits or something like a canonical novel?

>>5087894
>not believing it

Truth is stranger than fiction, /lit/erate. One thing I've learned is to err on the side of belief when crazy stories crop up, even on 4chan. The odds are more in favor of things being true than being false.

>>5087893
Hahahaha get shot you useless fucking waste of blood. You kill people for minimum wage and pretend you didn't make a choice. I'm glad you're so upset about this, I hope you realize outside of "the dirty south" this is how almost everyone views you. You deserve absolutely no respect and when the government is done with you they will leave you to rot with no help. You guys sure made a big difference in Iraq, huh? I mean look at the news lately ;^)

Go fuck yourself.

>>5087904
>If I quote stale plattitudes then I can feel better about taking a story on fucking 4chan about a demonic soldier with psychic powers at face value

I'm not really surprised the christian discussion thread is full of retarded faggots willing to believe anything

>>5087891
It makes me question my non-belief, tbh.

This guy, they call him the 'Sheriff of Ar-Ramadi' in the books now. I don't want to say his name. I dunno what to think anymore. The guy purged the fucking city of the enemy and gave me fucking breakfast in bed in the same month.

Ar Ramadi is fucking violent war-torn shit-hole of sectarian violence now, so fuck if anything I did or 'The Sheriff' mattered at all.

>>5087917
>He's famous but I won't give his le name LOLXD
So what you're saying is none of this happened and your full of shit?

>>5087905
>outside of "the dirty south" this is how almost everyone views you
Where the fuck do you live, Portland?

>>5087905
Must be great to be drunk all the time!

Yeah, soldiers are instruments to be used and destroyed to a means, I've never been ignorant of this. The pay is fucking great and it's surprisingly little work! A little risk, a little luck, a bit of time, no big deal.

It's true your cross bears more heavy then mine. Good fucking luck at your shit job, slaving to some corporate interest for some bitch-tier wage. Making pizza or coffee or driving a truck for degenerates.

Fuck that shit, I could never live your life.

>>5087871
>their country to secure opium poppies
The US maintains the opium trade in Afghanistan, not Iraq. The Iraq war was about crude oil, Saddam Husseins decision to trade in the Euro causing the US federal reserve to shell out billions of dollars overnight, asserting American dominance, and fulfilling contractual obligations to third parties.

>"thanks for your service!"™
At the moment, the country with the biggest war budget usually wins, it has nothing to do with the country with the soundest ideology. Despite this, I think the military is a fantastic idea. There are many people in society with a desire to kill people, and if these people are killing and getting killed by people from other countries with a desire to kill people, then all the right people are being killed. I do think "war" needs a stricter referee though. If America orders a drone strike and wipes out a whole village to get one fictional 'terrorist' then they should get a yellow card, or something? Perhaps each team should only be allowed 8000 players, and has to use the same weapons? More like paintball, televised for our entertainment, even pay-per-viewed to generate some revenue.

>>5087927
Sheriff of Ramadi shows results on google

>>5087927
Fuck, fine, how about Col McFarland for a name?

Go google that shit and be bored and fucking not give a shit.

>Basically the conversation goes like
>proceeds to ask about paraphrased conversation.
>is it a metaphor?
Why do you an anti-intellectual, OP?

I look at it all as a metaphor, with satan and god being the different sides of the same coin. One is divinity, the highest possible energy, union and the other consciousness, animalistic, greed, selfish, etc. The price of consciousness is those other primal more evil unified traits as well, which ,to be more one with god we must be good and strive to fight those urges.

So satan is hanging out in heaven because they are the same thing, they get separated, they come back together into the same entity, they get separated again, but at the end of the day god is what id consider like what you are before and after death, peace unity understanding detachment all the holy values buddha jesus etc taught, with satan giving you the gift and curse of consciousness (that apple from the tree) and you must live with the struggle between these 2 lower and higher energies inside u.

thats just my thoughts right now tho.

>>5087955
So you suppose Satan and God are basically the same entity? Just aspects of the same thing?

>>5087973
Yeah exactly, the universe is infinite but everything has an action and a reaction. So when you look at the whole, its just one thing, but inside the one thing there are 2 complete opposites.

Yin and yang are 2 different ideas, but the entire yin and yang circle is ONE thing so from THAT outer perspective everything inside is just different aspects of that one same thing.

>>5086519
Don't lie. You just watched the South Park episode where cartman buys a theme park and Kyle loses his faith.

>>5087983
That sounds like shit.

So the sinners and saints alike, are both tempted and bolstered by God to sin or repent, to shit themselves and fucking die to go go hell for nothing.

Who the fuck would respect or love a God that creates such a shitty world that people need to sin to survive then cast them to eternal torment for it? Creates an antagonist just to ensnare people to damnation. Billions of of fucking people.

Fucking disgusting.

>who wrote this shit
Someone who heard it passed down by oral tradition from over 2000 years ago. These are just stories that Tribes would tell each other. Is there anything in the sticky about the bible? Because it should have its own sticky at this point, people always asking the same shit.
"How do I into the bible?"
"Why would the bible say this and then this? it's contradictory!"
"Why would god do that?"
"Why would people do that for god?"
It gets old after a while..

>>5088018
Yeah, but 'Oh it's all just bullshit some superstitious Jews made up for fun' falls hollow when so many people believe this shit.

You might not believe any of it, but you have to understand millions of people think like this and believe this, you must try to figure out their bullshit, at least figure out basic arguments against the shit they might might quote from scripture.

I dunno. I don't think it's something to be mocked, even if it's all fairy tales. People live and breathe this bullshit.

>>5087942
>I do think "war" needs a stricter referee though...
It must be nice to be an idealist.

>>5088042
>you must try to figure out their bullshit, at least figure out basic arguments against the shit they might might quote from scripture.
Why?

>>5088054
Cause you are damned to live and work with people that think and behave like this?

What fucking other choice do you have?

Maybe you live in fucking France or some other godless shithole and get fucked apart by 3rd world Muslims, but elsewhere, you deal with an underlying Christian culture.

>>5088008
Well you just took my metaphorical take on 3 sentences and took the rest out of it completely literally.

I think it has to be all metaphorical that way.

I do see it as a cycle like you said, but the whole hell and eternal torment is where I also view it as a metaphor.

I think its more like just carrying out karmic vibrations, so we start before life before consciousness as one with god, we are cast into this battle between good and evil, we make our choices however limited they may be, and then we're cast back into oneness with god.

So like something like good and evil are just human terms we understand on this planet, theres a rumi poem that goes something like Beyond good and evil there is a field, I will meet you there. Torment and damnation is only recognized by consciousness, thus it is created by consciousness i reckon. Nothing bad or good actually exists?

>>5088069
But why do you have to be so mad at people for seeing the glory of the LORD instead of just accepting that you're a lost soul and moving on?

>>5086519
Lol fuckoff back to /pol/ Christfaggot.

>>>/pol/

>>5088042
I wasn't trying to imply it should be mocked because it's bullshit. I was just trying to make the point that the bible was written a long fucking time by a bunch of different people at different times with different views. But they all for the most part had tribe mentality. Thus the Old Testament brutality and myth feel. They are campfire stories told to explain their laws, customs, beliefs and provide a deterrent. I'm not saying to a bad thing. It's just what it is.

>>5088086

>>5088076
That all sounded really hippie and not what I was expecting.

I'd say, if a sinner hated God, what punishment could be worse then being in God's presence forever in the afterlife? The sinner hangs out in Heaven with God forever all awkward and shit?

It's all absurd.

>>5088080
I'm not really mad, I'm just being colorful with my language and approach for fun. I know already I'm a lost soul and all, I'm just trying to figure out some fucking answers before I'm cast into the lake of fire and all.

>>5088106
Oh and that is why it tends to contradict modern Christian views. Because we are not an eye for an eye culture anymore and don't need to justify an eye for an eye by saying its gods law. Thats the major problem with people reading the bible. people think the Old Testament god is supposed to be the same as the New Testament/modern Christian god.

>>5086627
> Christians have gone full pomo: my truth is how I feel, it needn't be argued, it's just my perspective
That's an aspect of modern Christianity inspired by Kierkergaard.

But since you (or butterfly, can't remember) have outright denied reading scholastics, you will never see the older, more firm one in which faith is argued with reason and logic.

>>5088117
Mm yea Ive started to become pretty hippie at least with where my beliefs have taken me. Kinda weird but it makes sense to me.

Its definitely absurd, I think it has to be though. life is so crazy man. I dont know how you can even explain anything, like sure civilization can explain what gravity is, but there are children born in india right now who get their limbs chopped off so they can be more successful at begging for food. Like can you honestly comprehend that existence? Im on the same earth as someone who wasnt able to eat today? I am conscious somehow and everyone has all these thoughts and feelings and ideas that I will never know or be apart of?

I feel like that shit makes sense that we needed to talk about snakes and sins and gardens just so tribes didn't all just kill themselves and live for momentary pleasure.

>>5088106
Ok, I see your point. Fucking surreal people believe some campfire stories told by ancient Jews to justify their dicks getting circumcised or whatever.

I forget I'm rebelling against insane people that believe in bullshit written in a book without even the courtesy of a pen name on the cover.

>>5088139

Hey army guy I don't actually want you to get shot. I'm sorry. That was too far and I just hope you'll think about what you're doing when it comes time to re-enlist or "make a decision". I really do, man. Good luck.

>Tfw getting stoned and feeling bad for being really mean on 4chan

Holy shit

>>5088133
Man, I don't even like to be reminded of that kind of existence you talk about. Yeah we're on the same earth as those people. How the fuck can people even function tolerating that kind of shit if it was a daily thing for them? I can't even comprehend it, you're right, my instinct is to rebel, violently.

You suppose the world would be nothing but this degenerated reality if not for morality taught by some book penned by superstitious old jewish dudes?

I'm not so sure, but I can see where you are coming from.

>>5088139
It gives some kind of order to society though. Everywhere in history there is some kind of a religion. It is extremely rare to find a culture anywhere in the history of man without a religion. This is just one of the ones that survived the test of time. Had the Vikings dominated the world long enough we would all be pagans. But the Christian kingdoms did.

>>5088155
I know that flotsam, m8
Sometimes I feel bad for saying certain mean things to people on this other board I use. They're insufferable people, and rude to me, but I still feel bad about some of the stuff I say

But lucky for you, you're only saying shit that the guy's probably heard or read a thousand times before from college students, TV personalities, celebrities and left-leaning newspapers, so it's not like one guy on 4chan's gonna make much a difference

>>5088155
Bro, it's a free fucking country, say whatever the fuck you like. If my ego bruised easily I'd never mention my profession on 4chan.

>>5088158
I wish I could forget, man. Any time I'm unable to finish a cheap, shitty meal from having bigger eyes than stomach I feel horrific. Sometimes it hits me when I'm at a bar, or drinking a lot or water or in the shower. Then I feel so, so badly and reflect on any times I haven't been grateful in my life. I don't know what a broke guy with little free time can do to improve anything and the realistic answer is I can't... I don't know. Thinking too much about things is awful, it leads to all sorts of delusions and depressions.

Anyway back on track: It's not totally uncommon for christians to express some sort of block that morality could exist without the bible, they can't comprehend it. Whether by saying that almost word for word or through witnessing their greed and lust running counter to their beliefs... I don't know. That's one thing I don't like to think about. The really adamant christians who barely rein in their true nature because of heaven, and wish hell upon people, and want the rapture to punish everyone unlike them. I don't want to and can't imagine how that existence must be. These people are among us, they control policy, they have weapons. Unsettling

>>5088158
Yeah pretty much. Just to kinda elaborate and this shit helps me figure my own ideas and remember what I've read and shit too, I think the idea is that humans are clearly not the pinnacle of evolution , we are continually evolving, and in order to evolve, we must seek to be higher than a man.

"Mans only goal is to become better than a man" or somethin, you have to rise to a higher power.

IIRC monkeys are the first to begin to show cruelty in which they understand they are actually being cruel and continue to do so anyways, BUT STILL there have been studies where if you treat a portion of monkeys unfairly, like they took a bunch of monkeys and started giving 5 of them more food for no reason, the 5 monkeys would rebel to bring fairness. Like they can understand fairness.

Clearly humanity is not like that, we don't rebel against unfairness, our primal drive overpowers it, and just like you said, thats why we need those stories. To strive for something BETTER than what we are and to try and become divine. Early humans reached the pinnacle of sex and violence and you need to believe theres something more important than those things to get to the next stage or else youll never find it.

>>5088192
Why do we need to find it though?

How does one attain a christian gf?

>>5088185
I dunno where Christians get this idea that morality cannot exist outside of biblical doctrine. The prove is in everywhere around them.

It's not fucking Christian outreach ministries solving the injustices of the world, it's the goddamn secular governments and their retinue of guns and soldiers and policemen and writ of the pen.

>>5088226
Your sense of morality is rooted from a Christian culture, buttwiener

>>5088212
Go to church alot, basically.

>>5088192
Humans are pretty fucking flawed if you look at them enough. You know the majority of our DNA material isn't even human? It's HERV. Google that shit. It's fragments of ancient retro-virus material from millions of years of evolution.

If that doesn't discredit creationism, I don't know what will. If God exists he obviously isn't playing janitor to our genes. Our genetic material is a fucking trash heap.

Job was not written by Christians. It was likely an Exilic-Era text, that is to say, written by Hebrews who followed a blend of the Biblical religion and Judaism. For them, Satan was not a devil, but he was The Satán, The Adversary, a sort of district attorney for God to challenge the Jews' commitment to the Covenants.

>>5088239
No, it's not. I'm going to see motherfucking Phish on the 4th of July and blow cocaine and huff nitrous. There will be plenty of people there fucking and doing god knows what. The entire economy is run on lies and usury and death. Lots of cultures look down on murder and rape, Jesus does not get credit.

>>5088247
I go to church once a week.
I don't involve myself into the community though

>>5088203
A great question, I bounced around just like nihilism basically esp during teennage years when i was abit less social and shit. Ultimately i dont like nihilism anymore though, the whole why do we need to strive to be better, why do we need anything, nothing fucking matters etc.

Its a combination of absurdity, terrence mckenna, tao and simple tribal primitiveness: It is my duty to carry out my passions and use my talents for the world, for example if im an artist or youre a musician or i was born to be a great happy clerk store janitor. Do your best, not because its going to bring change to the entire world, but because thats what the universe needs you to do for it to reach its conclusion. Like the universe has a beginning and an end and its going to reach that and all of the atoms are the same obviously so you might as well just carry out your purpose. and it just may make one person happy.

Life can be so bleak and miserable, our primal urges will not make us happy, only fulfilling our duty to our people and ourselves can make us and others happy, even for a moment. Like siysphus, even though he rolled the boulder up the hill just to have it come tumbling down, and it was completely and utterly pointless and he may have just laid down crushed under it breathing for eternity, at the very top of the mountain, right before the ball starts rolling back down.. one must imagine sisyphus happy. Thats how our brains and shit were made.

thats my way of lookin at it.

>>5088255
People still do cool stuff at rock concerts?

>>5088226
>I dunno where Christians get this idea that morality cannot exist outside of biblical doctrine.
> proceeds to post "I'm going to see motherfucking Phish on the 4th of July and blow cocaine and huff nitrous."

>>5088247
Thats dope Im readin bout it now.

You never know what started that first thing tho, the infinity of infinities, i think thats the only thing that can really serve as a logical reason for creationism. We dont know where that first thing began, anything else makes no sense tho i agree.

>>5088239
Pfft, ya got me there, bro. I've never said everything about Christian doctrine was worthless. It's true I base my sense of morality and ethics off Christian values, in part.

The protestant nations of the world compared to the catholic or muslim or pagan nations of the world. Better off.

Not saying the morality they purport is incorrect or flawed, it works good as fuck, as evidenced in the world and the people that adhere to it, they prosper while others struggle. But it doesn't mean it's theologically or divinely accurate. It's still a fucking deception against reality.

>>5088254
Shit, that's kinda interesting, but it fucks up the rest of the Bible if some Old-school pagan-grade Old Testament stuff got stuck in the New Testament.

So on Wiki its giving me HERV was like 4-8% of the human gemone, which is just random as fuck viruses randomly coming in and occupying our dna.

Shit is so weird man. How the fuck is a virus in my dna? What does that even mean? Which part of my DNA makes me able to understand what I just read. Omg.

>>5088283
My guess, if there is a God he pushed 'start' to a universe he designed and let everything play out.

Didn't explicitly design me or you. Just a rough estimate from millions of years of our ancestors fucking relentlessly that created me and you.

Yeah our DNA is a trash bin.

It's not even certain we have free will. Studies in neuroscience, monitoring brain activity, we come up with decisions and act on things before we are even consciously aware that we make such decisions. Which means consciousness is an illusion, a step behind what our brain has already worked out.

That doesn't say a fucking thing one way or another for the existence of a God or not, but reality really does discredit creationism.

>>5088316
I think schizophrenics are people with a weak anchoring to this particular section of the multiverse and that gods are beings from particularly well-aligned universes to our own

I think when you die you go to whatever universe your Id felt the strongest connection to

>>5086737
>>5086737
This is false heresy. A loving god would not destroy his creation, instead when we die Jehovah shall wake us from our slumber and teach us the way of love.

>>5088327
Lord only knows. I know people are fucked up for sure and if designed, are engineered by a very cruel or incompetent progenitor

Can anybody seriously be knowledgeable about nature and the world, the physical universe and everything and seriously think an intelligent mind came up with this shit?

Especially with people, holy fucking dog balls are people flawed.

>>5088261
Interesting. I'd like to share something on the topic of striving to be better. Back in the day I talked to an anon on here and we exchanged emails and talked about the faiths which shaped us, Roman Catholicism for me (14 years schooling; I don't practice it) and Satanism for him. Now I admittedly knew nothing about Satanism which is why we originally started talking, someone started a satanism thread and people were ripping on him and he was just trying to explain what his beliefs were about. So anyway, we start talking and it turns out that satanism is more of a lifestyle than a religion. Actually I don't think they consider it a religion at all. But the whole point of satanism in the general sense was to strive to be the best you can be. Much like Lucifer desired to be god like. In principle that doesn't seem like a bad ideology. He also explained other aspects of it though which most would consider inherently evil like murders for sacrifice. But they said they are always people who "don't matter." They despise those who are generous because generosity works against your own success. Attaining a good level of physical fitness is apparently essential for true satanists. I'll have to recheck the emails to see what their views on afterlife were. Either way just thought I'd share another groups views on the topic

>>5088316
Yeah that makes sense. An interesting thing about the whole explicit design thing though, you have to consider the possibility that there aren't that many ways that reality can exist. If a higher being pushed start, it doesn't mean that its complete chance that people are this exact way. This MIGHT be the only or one of the only ways that life can begin to start thinking about these ideas.

Like if you roll a dice from 1 to 10, but you're only allowed to see what you got if the answer is 7, then the answers going to be 7 every time, even tho you can be sitting there looking at 7 and think wow look at this random chance of it getting to 7.

Abstract shit tho.

What you mean by lack of free will may mean consciousness is an illusion? Like all of our thoughts are just meaningless, the REAL thoughts that contribute to our REAL actions have already been decided behind the scene? fuck thats mindblowing. I dont even know if anything is real at all, theres that study that people just like fucking saw and went well shit, what the fuck does that mean and just never talked about it again where they realized that things that don't actually take shape if we're not looking at them.

The double slit experiment. Sending light through a slit and not looking at it will make it behave like a wave and go thru 2 slits, but when you MEASURE IT, it will change and go through one slit. what the fuck man. get the fuck out my face bill nye

>>5088343
Wrong, heretic.

Hell is absolute separation from God, meaning the soul of the sinner and hater of God will simply be destroyed. Gehenna is where trash was brought to be destroyed. God simply sorts out the souls worth being around and thoses He wishes to discard.

Atheistfags will get their oblivion after death like they believe after all.

Why the fuck would a benevolent and merciful God have some supernatural torture chamber set up for billions of people for eternity when He means to end all of time and creation pretty soon anyways? Goddamn heretics fuck up everything. Read the bible, ffs.

>>5088365
Whoa that's fucking heavy

>>5088365
Dude a satanist goes to my school. We have facebook arguments once a month. A lot of their tenants do make a lot of sense, like you said they dont even really believe in a satan with a pitchfork its more just the inherent selfishness and darkness that all humanity and being came from. It is definitely really interesting.

But they are just really into, or at least this dude I know is, shit thats kind of evil. Like our last argument was he posted about this woman that was poaching animals and said she should be gangraped to death. When bankers commit suicide he says YES another one, cant wait till more.

Like he/satanists in general basically believe in cleansing via destruction, its def interesting but idk. I think if you have 2 completely unfounded and just hypothetical ideas, and one is destruction and the other is happiness and compassion.. I'll take the 2nd.

They are super selfish.

>>5088369
I'll pray that you lose the hate in your heart.

>>5088368
I'm not going to try and sell you a way of thinking, but you can google 'Eliminative materialism' which is a half-assed philosophy based on these studies on the human mind.

Apparently, the brain is a meat-based computer running through it's algorithms and you- your consciousness has no effect on it whatsoever. You are only aware of your decisions after they have already have been made. You'll probably do something odd like "omg, not true, I'm gonna hop up on my chair and flail my dick around! Totally of my own free will!"

Well, it's not really your free will, it's an illusion, still.

Interesting to contemplate, but it really means nothing, everyone should still act as though they have free will, a consciousness, because we are not functional without thinking in these terms anyways.

Maybe this reality says something for or against the possibility of a God? Maybe God has predetermined all of our thoughts, actions, interactions, emotions, everything, like it's said. But with the illusion of free will.

>>5088349
Everything we do can be traced back to the two most primal instincts: survive and pass on your genes. And even that can be argued to have to do with entropy. Sure you can argue gays or anheroes or what have you but those are truthfully defective organisms. Intelligence is where things get fuzzy. Somewhere down the line we became self aware and were able to ask questions and ponder. This is our curse and we are doomed to descend into madness should the human timeline extend far enough. What happens when the only questions left to answer are the ones that are impossible to answer? Will the human race be satisfied knowing virtually everything except their purpose? I don't think we will last that long though. For the "fucked up" nature of people, it's primal instincts being translated by our very superior intelligence. The smarter we are the more possibility for that transmission to be garbled and translated into fucked up things. From weird quirks to serial rapists.
I have no sources because it's all a shitpost.

>>5088423
If so I don't want to worship that kind of God, the kind of God that makes monstrosities out of man, what a fucked up creature that must be.

>>5088388
Man, I'm just playing around. I don't take this seriously.

But for serious, hell means annihilation of the soul, not a place where you get poked at with pitchforks in a lake of fire. Why would allies of Satan get tormented by him or his angels? Satan is always striving for allies, not people to torment.

They all get destroyed. They don't hang out in hell forever.

>>5088423
Damn thats sick. Yeah I guess something like that is meaningless because if we think about it, its already been deemed OK to be thought about it so its not really going against the system, thatd be impossible. Gonna start going thru the wiki of this now . I like this bit "which argues that a mental state is well defined, and that further research will result in a more detailed, but not different understanding"

sometimes i have thebelief that I have never really changed when I like thought of a new idea or did something, ive just become more myself. Think I heard that in a rap song too. its great.

I like that. I also like the idea that god can just be a name for consciousness, the ability to examine ponder etc, it exists everywhere, our brains and genes etc evolved in a particular way to tune in like a radio to a certain frequency of consciousness, and then when we die the radio just turns off so we don't pickup the signal anymore through our body and our 5 senses, but the music is always blaring

>>5088423
Consciousness isn't related to free will. Being conscious of the factors that determine your actions doesn't free you from those factors, it simply means the causal chain of relations that lead to you committing x action in y circumstances are less apparent.

Consciousness isn't something that can be discarded as a factor though, its part of the causal chain just like everything else.

>>5088380
Yea there are definitely sects that believe in much darker things. But like my anon friend said the respected sects more or less live for themselves. The only evil things they typically do is like I said murder for sacrifice. Yes they desire satanism to rule the world but it's because they believe it to be the true way much like Christianity. They are very artsy folk too and worship the female body. It's all around very interesting. If I can find the emails I'll post them

>>5088449
I'm trolling as well friend, but I've heard that as well, that hell is supposedly an eternal graveyard for those that do wrong, and that Satan will be destroyed. If there is an afterlife, I just hope Satan manages to thrive, I mean he did give us free will after all.

>>5088449
Bed description of heaven and hell I've heard was this:

The soul is essentially a part of God longing and aching to return to him, the body actually masks this ultimate pain of longing. Our bodies are just vessels and when we die the soul is released. Typical so far. But heaven is the absolute closest the soul can get to god. Perfect happiness, desires fulfilled. Hell is the absolute furthest from god. Living an eternity with the most insatiable longing.

>>5088488
How bout dis-

Hell is the moment that feels like eternity right before you die where you are visited by all the people you could have become instead and realize what you really are

Heaven is the moment that feels like eternity right before you die where you experience all the bliss and rightousness in one overwhelming moment that you have given to others selflessly

I like yours tho the longing and satisfaction is interesting

>>5088498
I like that too.
Probably the strangest thing to me that makes me discredit religion is that not every human lives until they die of natural causes. Sure it can be explained by a bunch but in the grand scheme of things someone could have been a murdering bastard from 20-30 and found god at 31 and repented their whole life. Others can die at 25

>>5088426
Yeah, but you know people are 'fucked up' even when you are trying to be objective, you know this is true in your thinking.

Why are people fucked up? Instinct, programming, sure. But people are just intelligent and controlled enough to know there is something better then base animal instincts, but we shit where we sleep and fuck everything up anyways

That's what makes us fucked up. We have the mind to act beyond the capacity of an animal but we act like animals anyways. Eat, sleep, fuck, kill, we let this dominate our minds and our actions.

>>5088442
Yeah, I'd agree. Why I can understand the idea of Lucifer and 1/3rd of the angels rebelling against God and all that shit. The flaws and the truths of mortal reality become more profane and grotesque the more you look into it.

>>5088451
A real Christfag would be happy to hear they have no free will, really. They are dogged by 'sin' and temptation and a struggle to live to impossible ideals, yet believing everything they experience or know is the will of God. It'd be a comfort to think they don't actually control their own actions, they are something of an observer with an illusion of control.

>>5088456
Yeah, you cannot discard the concepts of free will or consciousness because we are not wired to function without them. It works. Evolution or whatever. It's still a fucking illusion, though, in the end. Think of the things you do on a regular basis. Typing in a box to reply to some asshole on 4chan. You don't really think about it, you just do it, without conscious thought.

>>5088535
Do we actually have the capacity to me more than animals? Or have we just convinced ourselves of that?

>>5088472
Yeah. Satan and his army and all the dirty sinners all have free will. If God stuck them in a prison, they'd create some kind of rival to God's creation. They'd have a society, basicially.

That''s pretty silly. So God is just going to destroy Satan and everyone on his team, along with the rest of the universe. He's gonna wipe the slate clean. Nothing will survive the end of time, let alone a bunch of rebels hanging out in a lake of fire forever.

>>5088520

Mm yea the lack of fairness and sometimes evil triumphing over good can make it seem all bs. i mostly struggle with that when it comes to dealing with girls, like how a girl can reject me and to me its a bad thing and then I stop talking to a girl and think its a good thing and she may feel bad and so on. Then 3 years later I think that rejection or being dumped was alright and the way to go. We CONSTANTLY think of different things being good and bad. Its so relative. I like this rumi idea with actions just being actions, human brain needs to assign things, thats fine, let it assign things if it wants, but know its temporary like clouds in a sky. Murdering is an action and we've assigned it to be bad and rightfully so, but its just an action that makes people unhappy usually, so try to do actions that make people happy.

>>5088535

I really like that last part you said with the lack of conscious thought just posting on this board. Im obv not who u were talking to but still. Its fascinating. So many people are just sitting there unhappy, you realize you can just get on a plane and go live somewhere else right? You literally can have control of your life if you wish. I know sometimes things like parents or responsibilites can get in the way but theres always something you can do. But most people just unconsciously sit there and do it anyways. And you tell them about the possiblities like an abused woman getting a divorce and she listens and nods and says yeah and does nothing. Its so weird.

>Is this shit all metaphorical or something?
Yes.

>>5088547
Maybe we're just a pitstop in evolution where we have a little basic rudimentary form of consciousness and no free will, we just think we do, and we're chugging along till something that actually is really considerably more advanced than animals is created out of us.

>>5088547
Sure we do, bro.

We don't even fuck like normal animals most of the time. Say I go down on my girlfriend, that shit doesn't make babies, doesn't do anything for me, makes her happy, though. Animals don't do that kind of shit. People do.

We're all fucked up, though. That animal instinct dogs us. We kill out of terror, or for fun, fuck out of pleasure, hate the whole fucking world and everything else in it, dig and build and burn and alter the environment for our comfort. Animals don't do this shit.

We are fucked up with our instincts but we have the capacity and power for something more. that's where this whole concept of 'sin' comes from.

>>5088560
Black scientist guy proposed that since everything that makes us human is 1% of our DNA different from chimps, what if there was something 1% different from humans but in the forward direction.

>>5088573
I'm pretty sure polar bear bitches give blowjobs tho.

A lot of it is ego too, granted you are in a loving relationship so you may really be doing it selflessly but when I make a girl cum I am in the most ego driven euphoria, like that shit feels amazing to me just when its fingers or something and I dont get physical joy. I think sex really even most of the time, at least for me, again non loving relationships, is legit just ego driven. So, still a basic animal trait.

Animals will cry for their young, and do lots of heartwearming amazing shit. Totally feel you on the instincts vs the capacity for something more tho. I believe it.

>>5088573
Dolphins fuck for pleasure as suck each other's dicks. Some apes cannibilize but only other apes they kill during turf wars. And they share the carcass. Tilikum the orca at sea world killed like 3 people. One who tried to fuck his blow hole, he bit his dick off and paraded him around the pool, he also killed his trainer and held her at the bottom for 3 hours and wouldn't give her back. I just don't think intelligence makes us less animal. We are just more humanly with our animal behavior, good or bad, if that makes sense.

>>5088586
Did he say anything about how that process may occur?

Like can DNA be changed with thoughts, can i think and read and feel my way into being better, or is it creating some type of virus in a lab that slightly changes our dna and it creates a posiitive effect on a newborn baby that has this change?

>>5088552
People think they have control over their lives.

You typed some shit in a box. You already knew what you wanted to say before your fingers hit the keyboard, your hands can't even type it out as fast as you can think it. If your head was wired up and studied in a lab, they'd see your brain already came up with a response to this shit I'm saying and formulated a reply before you were even aware of it, an instant after you read this. Regular ass Pavlov's dog type classicial conditioning, stimulus and response, only... a bit more conditioned and a bit more classy, I'd say. What makes us human!

I'm not making this shit up either, it's how the human mind works, like it or not.

>>5088600
Straight up tho that shit they do with zoos and sea world is fucking grotesque. I want to go with every fiber of my being but I just cannot support such bullshit, that nigga aint holding her down for hours for no fucking reason.

>>5088560
Maybe that's where the split between emotional and rational is. Emotional is our animal tendencies and rational is us realizing that we are acting animal like.

>>5088606
I totally kno thats true Ive looked up many a study about that stuff, having the answers before you actually knew you had the answer.

I think the real question is, are "we" acting out things just a few seconds later in the physical world that we've already gone through the motions in on a quantum level, or is the entire physical world a lie and illusion that is just created completely independent of the real atoms interacting with each other seconds before we even think we know what happened?

>>5088602
He was actually referring to extra terrestrials. But It's just a pretty intriguing thought in general.

>>5088620
You ever hear the theory that we all speak our own language in our heads but our mind translates it so fast we don't realize it?

>>5088595
>>5088600
Humans have this creepy tendency to anthropomorphize animals, or give human-like traits to things that are not human.

Some dumb fucking animal that drowns a chick in a pool doesn't necessarily understand the symbology or sociological analogues the human society puts on the action. It killed people because killer whales fucking kill things. It's forthright in the name of the fucking creature.

You don't exactly see killer whales or monkeys creating secret societies or governments or regulatory bodies and religions dictating who they fucking suck off or drown in the bottom of pools. People do that shit. Animals act as animals, intelligence not withstanding, they act on instinct and protocol, only people will ascribe human-like characterizations to them.

I like this thread

>>5088630
Exactly the point that was trying to be made but that humans are no better. We just think we are. The point wasn't that animals are more human than we think. It's that humans are more animal. We think the things we do or the good and evil we are capable of is a human quality. But it's not. Because there is no good or evil. Just animal instincts.

>>5088641
Human behavior is largely dominated by animal instinct, true. The most fun and personally significant things we do in life are like this fucking, killing, eating, ect.... but an absurd amount of our time is doing things completely distinct from this type of thing.

We drag our fucking eyes across text cast on a goddamn lightbulb for fun, like what you're doing right now. For what? You are not getting laid reading this shit. It's a minor intellectual challenge and you feel sort of obliged to speak your mind.

Your dick-sucking monkeys and murderous dolphins don't do this shit. It's uniquely human and it's why people are fucked up.

>>5088625
Man. Crazy. We know nothing, how do we use this knowledge to create a better life?

>>5088630
Very good point man, its really easy to project a reality that you hope to see onto something and then even get mad when you find out it actually isn't like that. Its possible that it just killed the bitch cuz whales kill bitches, its definitely still possible that he felt some kind of hatred to her though, did he not? Like if hate exists, and humans can experience it, can other animals not experience it? Its totally possible that the whale hated her and instead of just killing her, he tried to kill her in the way that his whale brain thinks was more appropriate punishment.

We did see monkeys create governments tho in a way lol

>>5088661
Its just a different representation of the same ideas though. Like the belly of the whale in the bible and harry potter, really aren't all that different. Its still the heroes journey. We all still face that journey in our lives and all our tvs, even tho say 500 yrs ago, it would be something we read in a book instead of on tv or the internet.

Just because its a lightbulb that doesnt mean we're not getting laid doesn't mean its , at its very core, some kind of ego boost which we may feel is beneficial to us some day in the real world, just like how a whale doing the little belly flop above the ocean isnt necessarily fucking or killing anyone but its still establishing some kind of social dominance and helping his ego and future. Maybe just unconsciously.

>>5088661
I don't see how that strengthens your argument. Humans are extremely unique. Yes. But other animals do recreational activities. They don't necessarily serve a purpose.

>>5086623
Revelations is a prophecy, not a history. It's meant to describe things that will happen, not things that have happened.

>>5088681
Oh, ok, I see your point. No, you are not getting laid by typing shit into a box at me on 4chan, but 2000 years ago you might be talking to somebody at the village well about the same basic ideas, just for the fun of it.

It doesn't really invalidate the idea that humans do shit animals don't do. My basic point from the beginning is the whole concept of 'sin' and morality, ethics, comes from the fact that humans are both beholden to instinct, yet can intellectually divorce themselves from it. That is the problem with people, and that's why we are fucked up. If we lacked this, we'd just be dumb animals sucking each other off for fun.

If you see people as just dumb animals sucking each other off and murdering one another, it's accurate to a point, for sure we basically live for this, but it doesn't quite paint the whole picture.

>>5088686
Again, I don't see how animals playing around is an argument. Every mammal on earth plays, has mock battles, hunts dead leaves and sniffs assholes out of boredom. It doesn't really compare to what humanity does with all our horrible killing machines and atomic reactors and complex philosophical arguments.

>>5088709
ya the reason we're all here is because we are genetically still made for those times, we miss it.

I do agree with u yeah humans have this intellectual ability to be better and thats what we should strive to use more. totally. And its why we're fucked up because we are smart enough to inflict fuck tons of damage but then we have the CHOICE to not do it on that intellectual level and yet we still let greed and other animalistic instincts prevail. it sucks.

>>5087834
never been to /pol/ you faggotini

god is not a person ya moron, it's a way of relating to reality.

it doesn't 'engineer events'
we're the only conscious part of god, god's seeing itself through us.
>god has 'control issues'
omg lel, you're the flatest flathead in the sea

>assuming everyone's an idiot baptist from south USA
>>>/reddit/ you giant fucking faggot

>>5086798
>HaShatan

Shaytan?

Why did Luifer rebel ?

>>5088721
Okay so that's just this thing, called "the universe".

>>5088741
This is what I keep fucking asking, but I don't get a decent answer.

Apparently he just rebelled because he's an arrogant, prideful fuck and thinks he could do a better job then God.

I want to know the semantics of it though. The politics!

>>5088750
Yeah, maybe there isnt any

>>5087849
Hm.

>>5087973
"There ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk" ~Tom Waits

>>5088766
Nah, there has to be specifics. Satan is supposed to be intelligent and cunning beyond mortal comprehension. Can't just be for something stupid.

>>5088768
Pretty sure the guy was just bat-shit insane. Pretty lame for God's adversary to come to earth just to focus on beating up a handful of 3rd world peasant shitheads who are technically working for him anyways, right?

>>5088766
Maybe humans can't comprehend the reason why.

None of that shit is real btw

>>5086519
stick to menial labor

universe doesn't imply the inner workings of man as much as God does. but yes universe -in it's totality- including the micro and the macro, is a synoym for God.

Lot of people speaking about the universe in the same way people speak of God. That stoner scientist even tried making a kind of scientific religion around it.

>>5088743
this was for you >>5088801

>>5088803
look at this shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dADUBcoEEHw

it's like a star trek episode
fucking nerds

>>5088801
Really, the vastness and randomness of the universe seems to be an argument against the existence of God.

If all he cares about is earth, why didn't he just make the planet in a little micro universe bubble thing? Why have all this real estate go ignored and unused?

So they've proven the universe will undergo heat death and entrophy and everything, what's the purpose of it all if Jesus is just going to come back, round up his people and send everyone else to Hell?

>>5088810
"Cosmos isboth a history of scientific enterprise and an attempt at conveying the soaring spiritual high of it's central revelation: out oneness of the universe".

I prefer these pricks to Dawkins though

>>5088741
>>5088750
>>5088766
pride.

"Isaiah 14:12- He fell from heaven means he was cast out of heaven which was not allocated to him by God. He went to heaven in rebellion to God from his habitaion from which he was given to rule as he was the most trusted from all other angels of God.Called the son of the morning.
He weakened the nations of angels through slandering and turning them away from God in the heart, after that it was easy to lead them in rebellion.

verse 13-14 - His reason for betraying or rebellion - He wanted to exalt his throne given by God to be above the stars of God or above God. He wanted to be like the most high God. He wanted to sit on the throne of God which is on the mount of congregation where gathering is for worship or Mount Zion in Heaven located on the north part of the earth.
Lucifer ascended to heavens means his throne was located .
on earth under the clouds, under heaven, under stars.
Lust of the eyes, Pride was Lucifers downfall."

>>5088812
You really have to drop any connotations of God being anything like a person. God just is. This is a basic point. Much like the universe just is. We are the universe or God becoming aware of itself. We're off the same matter as God/Universe.

The vastness and randomness of the universe is God, you're looking for God that doesn't exist and you're missing the one that does exist, and that's right in front of your eyes.

He doesn't 'care' or 'not care'. Refer to the point of God/Universe just 'being'.

Anyway, humans should remove the unneeded part of religion for sure, but not to abandon 1000s (!!!!!) of years of accumulated knowledge, like the autists like Dawkins want. It's madness.

>>5088426
This is called Instinctivism, which is a lame name. But its something that needs to be considered more I think. And to put some /lit/ spin on it, I think werewolves would be the perfect symbol.

>>5088835
What if civilizations in individual universes were responsible for big bangs and creations of other universes.

>>5088812
Indians had an image of God, or the universe in modern parlance, as a big eye that closes and opens through millennia. This is exactly the most logical theory that science puts forward today, Big bang happens, universe expands to a point, and then starts to enthropy until it collapses unto itself causing another big bang, etc.

how the fuck did a naked indian man come up with that?

anyway science should act as augmentation of what we know so far, not to destroy, clean slate everything we learned so far. unfortunately we live in an age of extreme specialisation, where people like Dawkins just see one side of the coin. People as always demand certainly and absolutes and Dawkins et al are there to provide it, much like religious people provided in the years past.

>>5088845
this is a possibility yes. although we're not nowhere near that scale.

populating other planets is definitely the biggest goal we have in front of us, and it looks like we might be able to do it if we don't blow ourselves up on the micro scale of Earth. Just have to survive the next 200-300 years or so.

>>5088849
I believe I've read somewhere that the hypothesis of universe expanding and colliding have been refused.

Current idea is that the universe will expand until it'll be so vast and cold that everything stops

>>5087849
Holy shit lit- stranger than fiction.

>>5088423
Explain qualia tho

>>5088488
If hell is estrangement from god, then we have already made the world hell.

That appeals to my Faustian life myth

>>5088606
Cognitive determinism is still up in the air- it's way to soon to believe in it 100%

>>5087750
You're confused as to what libertarianism is then.

>>5086728
>He lost his estate; he has not lost access. The third heaven is where God and the angels dwell, and satan still has access to the throne room.

Rev 21:27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

>>5089022

We already became estranged from god in the beginning

>>5088630
There has never been an attack on a human by an orca in the wild. Tilikum and all other captive orca that turn violent are the victims of a kind of psychosis, similar to if you were to raise a child in captivity and mistreat them regularly by withholding food unless they perform tricks perfectly.

Al the jewish fathers go thru no different a trial then jesus. Abe & isaac, is like god asking him to sacrifice his ego, after abe has mentally done this, god sets him free, same thing. Greek fairytales contain this too, the tortoise essentially beats his own ego, the hare.

>>5089295
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale_attacks_on_humans

Y'all motherfuckers need gnosticism.

>>5089334
gnosticism in general?
or specifically a gnosticism

>>5089334
Jung was an Alchemist first and foremost

>>5089357

I was referring to Jung's "Answer to Job" specifically