/lit/ - Literature

Begging the question isn't how you start a discussion

>>5229510
>Why isn't George R R Martin the best fiction writer in history?

Why should he be?

>>5229598
Have you read AsOiAf?
I've never read anything better.

He's usually considered one of the all-time greats, but 4chan is highly contrarian and filled with trolls.

>>5229609
Really? Asoif is pretty cliche for when it was first released. You probably haven't read a lot of books if you haven't read anything better.

>>5229613
No, he's not. And, just because other people don't like your favorite generic fantasy, it doesn't mean that they're trolls.

After the Joffery/Tywin/Robb/Catelyn situation in Book 3, I gave up, I just stopped caring, I feel bad for those that started in the series in 1996.

>>5229613
>He's usually considered one of the all-time greats, but 4chan is highly contrarian and filled with trolls.

you're sinking

>>5229621
suggest me something better then.

>>5229835
oh, so you don't like it because it's cruel? poor you.

He's a good writer. A great craftsman with lots of experience. He's not one of the all-time great.

He's not bad, but he's not the greatest. It's boring to read after a while as well.

>>5229613
lmao by who

>>5229857
Book of the New Sun

>>5229510
His books, plots, and plot devices become repetitive, and his prose isn't on the same level as other great fiction writers like Dickens or London.

THE MORE SHE DRANK THE MORE SHE SHAT, BUT THE MORE SHE SHAT THE MORE SHE DRANK

>>5229625
>>5229842
>>5229934

Come on guys

I found the ASOIAF series to be dreadfully dry. Also, I'd watched the show so it was doubly trite to my admittedly feeble mind. I relented.

>>5229510
The ideas behind his work are childish, his prose is barely functional shit, and his plots just drag more than they merit for.
Why would he be?

>>5229857
The Last Unicorn.
Queen of the Black Coast.
Shrekseriously.

>>5229857
The Last Unicorn.
Queen of the Black Coast.
Shrek.no, seriously

>>5229857
Terry Pratchett, he has alzheimer's and still writes better and faster than Martin

>>5230017
THE MORE SHE DRANK THE MORE SHE SHAT, BUT THE MORE SHE SHAT THE MORE SHE DRANK
THE MORE SHE DRANK THE MORE SHE SHAT, BUT THE MORE SHE SHAT THE MORE SHE DRANK

Honestly, I haven't read ASOIAF, but if it's like Game of Thrones, it's probably awful. Really, I mean it's incredibly cliched and the plot is a sprawling mess. I've seen every GoT episode and I enjoy the series, but it doesn't make for a good intellectual show.

There are undoubtedly hundreds, if not thousands of writers better than GRRM

>>5231659
theres no such thing as an intellectual TV show anon

>>5229609
read more

>>5230025
>I can't defend my vapid generality about a shit author and his lack of fans on a shit image board so I'm just going to say Come on guys and leave it at that

>>5231694
The Twilight Zone was pretty intellectual.

God no. I enjoy the series but he isn't even the best fantasy writer in history.

>>5229857
100 Years of Solitude

>>5231659
ASOIAF is much more impressive than GoT. Somewhat less cliché. Isn't even a little bit intellectual though, despite what many of its fans will say. "The plot is a sprawling mess" is a bit of a shit opinion though, mate. A huge part of fantasy is immersion in the built world which is kind of impossible if half of it is left untouched. The plot is actually quite easy to follow and surprisingly isn't very ungainly despite it's scope.

>>5231659

What's so cliched about it?

>>5230017
>>5230990
SHITTING BROWN WATER

>>5229613
>He's usually considered one of the all-time greats, but 4chan is highly contrarian and filled with trolls.
I see what you did there. Nice.

>>5231959
>the plot is actually quite easy to follow
Sure, now tell me if you can remember every sub-character and central story off-shoot.

Because he meanders. His books wander constantly from character to character, and even he can't keep track of everything he's written. The man will literally contact the owner of the fansite westeros.org if he has a question about whether or not he's used something before. If you have to ask a FAN for help on keeping your books straight, you're doing it wrong.

>>5230683
This. Martin is slow as fuck. It's taken him nearly twenty years just to churn out five books. Terry Pratchett has written 16 more books in the Discworld series in the same amount of time, not to mention the OTHER books he's written in that time.

Martin is a shit-tier author.

i enjoy the tv show so i recently started reading the books from the beginning. i'm near the end of the first book and it's alright. the story and characters are good fun, if not a little dumb at times. it's pretty easy to read and follow through.

his writing style is generally pretty boring. theres nothing more daunting than a whole page just describing some fantasy medieval castle or city or boat. there was an entire chapter which just had catelyn climbing up a bunch of hills to reach her sisters house. there was no plot development, no conflict, just catelyn getting scared of falling a few times. i think it was an excuse to describe the area in full but i found myself just not interested.

there are 8 different characters who get chapters told from their perspective. i wonder why he chose 5 from the same family? maybe it'll make more sense when i get further on

>>5234221
>there are 8 different characters who get chapters told from their perspective. i wonder why he chose 5 from the same family? maybe it'll make more sense when i get further on

Yeah, it will. More POVs are added as well (2 major POVs every book, with about 5 minor POVs in books 4 and 5), but the ranks are thinned out as well, from death and characters "retiring" from having a POV either for an amount of time. The POV structure is ambitious and not for everyone, but I thought it was one of the stronger elements of the series.

Well, Terry Pratchett can't handle the descriptions, he delivers nearly all his exposition through dialogues. A typical Discworld novel would be composed of more than 50% of dialogues I reckon.

This way his world leaves much more to imagination and breeds a better sort of readers in general, but also lets him finish a book in half a year without much cradling the text.

It's like Monty Python sketches' script IN FANTASAY.

>>5229510
I'm withholding my judgement on GRRM until he finishes the series

AGoT was great, ACoK was great, ASoS was really great, AFfC was shit, ADWD was okay.

So far we got 3/5 good books, not bad but could be better. The last two books were really bad, but they're setting up for some really awesome shit to come. If he can make TWoW and ADoS entertaining, and make the final book top ASoS then I'll consider it a very good series.

If the quality of AFfC is the staple for what the rest of the series is to be, then no.

>>5232777
>If you have to ask a FAN for help on keeping your books straight, you're doing it wrong.

Meh, not really. Most fans tend to know way more about books than the actual authors do.

He still sucks, though, yeah. But hey, his shit sells like crazy and he's rolling in the cash, so I can't bash him that much.

>>5234413
>But hey, his shit sells like crazy and he's rolling in the cash, so I can't bash him that much.
This.
He found something that worked, and he's making serious dough off it. I can't hate.

Besides, he started the recent low fantasy and dark gritty fantasy phase which I like.

>>5234435
kinda late in his career

>>5234443
So? Tolkien started the LotR-clone fantasy craze late in his career too.

GRRM's popularity was skyrocketed because of the HBO show.

>>5234450
im talking about the grittiness not the cash

>>5234458
Me too. Why does it matter that he started a craze that I like late in his career.
What kind of point are you trying to make?

>>5229613

>there are people ITT who regularly read great works of literature who've come to the conclusion that any of these books are 'great'.

>>5232777
>The man will literally contact the owner of the fansite westeros.org if he has a question about whether or not he's used something before.
is this real?

>>5235391

he will ask them about the eye color of very minor characters etc, that's about it.

He very rarely does it, just goes to show how people will find any reason even a miniscule as this one to hate on Martin.

BECAUSE HE FUCKED OFF AFTER BOOK 3

I REALLY THINK HE'S DEAD. THE GUY RIGHT NOW IS AN IMPOSTER. THIS IS THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION.

>>5232777
i couldn't finish raising steam. it was like reading fan fiction. only book in the series that i didn't thoroughly enjoy.

the first three ASoIaF books are all about plot, characterization and TV-style pacing. I honestly don't know what the recent middle two books are about. At no point is the prose particularly great with any of the books. Dude is a TV writer at heart, I think.

fun fact: i'm typing this while wearing a ruffspun tunic and boiled leather while eating chicken with grease dripping down my chin.

>>5229510
I genuinely think he's one of the best, but his prose isn't great. Not that it's unreadable, because it's clearly very easy to understand. The problem is more that it isn't impressive, his choice of words doesn't drive home his points, it's just explanatory. Any feels you get are from the storyline progression, not his writing methods.

That said, he is, in my opinion, the best world-builder ever. There isn't just a lot of history to the world - it's constantly touched upon, explored in the present, and quite frankly, really interesting.

tl;dr if his writing was a bit more sophisticating he would be without doubt, although he's still definitely a viable shout regardless.

>>5237351
*sophisticated

Fuck off, it's 5am and I'm tired.

>>5229609
This post alone shows what kind of people like his books. The illiterate and grammatically challenged. Where the fuck did you learn to capitalize 'Of' and 'And'? but not the nouns? Is this guy serious or did I just bite hard?

>>5237365
cuz lyk evry udda fing iz capitalalized

>>5229510
ASoIaF is a great story, but Martin as a writer is horseshit. I swear to god he uses certain terms like "mummer's farce" and "much and more" and "little and less" and "Would that it were" at least once a chapter. i started to think that he just plugged a certain number of words and phrases into a computer program that just arranged them into the story he wanted.

hell i think i'd like him more if that were the case

>>5237235

affc and adwd are building for the big finale, asos concluded the first part of the series.

All the pieces are in place, and the storm has finally arrived.

>>5237235
>boiled leather over chainmail
>martin doesn't know shit about armor

>>5229860
I'm not the guy you're quoting, but I agree with him.
I didn't like it from that point on because Martin kills off many good characters and replaces them with shit. Also, it's not cruel at all. Read more.

>>5232159
What do names have to do with plot? The plot is so simple that you there's zero need for remembering all the names.

/r/ing the picture comparing Tolkien with this fat fuck.

>>5232777
To be fair, he's written more then 5 in that time. He writes more than Ice and fire, you know...

>>5229857
As a satire of fantasy First Law beats it with ease. It's better written, more coherent, has prose that doesn't get shit in your eyes. The plot's much tighter too, the characters more memorable.

Best satire of fantasy is Don Quixote though

Other than his writing (which is more often decent than not), asoiaf is very good, despite the Martin meme that's developed on this board. Criticisms such as it only serves as light entertainment, it's cliche, the author doesn't know what he's doing etc have to be part of that meme; no one who read the books without the /lit/-induced preconceptions would seriously suggest such things.

All things considered, it's a very impressive work, although I'm glad not to have come into contact with certain members of the fanbase; from what I've gathered on my time on the net. Unfortunately these books tick all boxes for disapproval by this board: mega popular, 'genre' (although the subversion of so many of its tropes makes whether it really is a fantasy work contentious), accessible and inconsistent prose. That it isn't taken seriously here is one of /lit/'s most embarrassing traits, although that's something I can deal with. It would just be nice to be able to discuss the books here with people who aren't shitposters or insane fans who have never read anything else in their lives.

>>5238730
Having a lot of characters is not impressive.
Having hundreds of pages of filler is not impressive.
Having soap opera plot twists where an evil twin sleeping with her brother puts someone into a coma is not impressive.

>>5238728
I read the first book of First Law after hearing it was so much better than asoiaf. While I can only comment on the first book and not the entire trilogy, at this point posts like yours simply boggle the mind. Nothing, and I mean nothing, of what you said is in any way or shape remotely true, ignoring the last sentence. The Blade Itself was a shallow, uninspired shadow compared to any of the first three asoiaf books, and I'm pissed off that I was led to believe it was so superior.

>>5238748
Shitposting is not impressive.

>>5238748
>soap opera
of all the meme-based 'criticisms' for this series you guys churn out, this one is the most overplayed and embarrassing

for the love of christ if you're going to keep it up at least think of a new one-liner you can shoot off

>>5238757
It really gets into the swing of things in the second one, and the third pulls you along with string after string of concise twists. That said, if the first book hasn't made you laugh then the series is probably not for you.

>>5238748
>Having hundreds of pages of filler is not impressive.

Have you ever read Tolkien?

>>5229560
>Begging the Question

Kill yourself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

>>5229934
It's "by whom" you fucking retard.

>>5240461
according to who?

>>5240406

>>5229510
Eh he's better as a short story writer

>>5235391
Hilariously, yes
>Martin himself sometimes checks with García when he’s not sure he’s got a detail right. Martin told me, “I’ll write something and e-mail him to ask, ‘Did I ever mention this before?’ And he writes me right back: ‘Yes, on page 17 of Book Four.’ ”

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/04/11/just-write-it?currentPage=all

>>5237365
>taking the bait this hard

>>5235170

You could view it more like Ebert in that it doesnt have to meet a universal standard but rather if it does what it is looking to do well. In some regards GRRM is great at what he does, I'm not a fan of it, it isn't for me but I would recommend it to someone who is into that kind of stuff.

>>5237351

I think the best world builder is either Herbert or Tolkien. Tolkien's history of middle earth and related subjects is vast it's very near a complete mythology.

>>5229857
Hyperion Canta
Wheel of Time
Black Company
Broken Empire
Mistborn
Lord of the Rings

ASOIAF is nice, but the fact that Martin doesn't care for most of his characters and will kill them at a moments notice doesn't allow the reader to invest very heavily in an individual character. The world he set up was incredible and can be compared to Tolkien, only his character development and storytelling are sub-par.

The books drag on at a slugs pace, the action sequences last for a page or two, yet the expository afterwards can last for chapters at a time making the story pass at a painful rate. The TV show is only getting better due to the fact that D&D are taking over and creating their own content because Martin can't be trusted to finish his own story.

And honestly, 6 years to write a book? Seriously?

>>5242014
>In some regards GRRM is great at what he does

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

>>5234369
You hated AFFC because he focused on new characters instead of the old ones. I bet you skipped through the attempt to crown Myrcella and Kingsmoot, both being great plotlines

>>5229510
Because the sheer amount of padding, bullshit, and filler in his books is ridiculous

He also has a bad tendency of killing people because why the fuck not, I'm convinced the only reason why he creates characters at all is to kill them

>>5234369
'ACok was great'

Haha

>>5242703
>He also has a bad tendency of killing people because why the fuck not

It worries me that people believe this. You sound like one of those who suggest Martin suddenly has a change of mind, scraps a particular sub-plot half way though, and instead of following it to its intended conclusion he simply kills off the concerned character out of sheer laziness and indecisiveness. Do you really think, with the benefit of hindsight, that Ned, Rob or Cat's plots weren't meant to finish in such a tragic manner, or that such endings don't serve a plot and thematic purpose?

>I'm convinced the only reason why he creates characters at all is to kill them

This contradicts your opinion in the first sentence I quoted. Does Martin off a character on a whim or is it his intention to do it from the start?

Anyway, this isn't somehow a bad thing. You need to ask yourself what the idea and point the author is making. Think what statement people constantly meeting grisly fates beyond their control makes, about the nature of power and trying to attain it. There's a definite emphasis on the fickle nature of fortune and events. The arcs of Ned, Rob and Cat, plus those of so many others, all serve to explore this concept. And the result is far more original and compelling than your typical plot-oriented stories, which usually always follow the same tired structures. The idea that a 'genre' work has to constantly be advancing plot is ludicrous; what you consider to be 'filler' is often doing something other than trying to entertain you with action.

>>5242343
>the fact that Martin doesn't care for most of his characters and will kill them at a moments notice doesn't allow the reader to invest very heavily in an individual character

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with killing your cast as long as you do it right and Martin, for the most part, does. There are few deaths that can be called 'arbitrary' or 'at a moment's notice'... at least in the first three books where you can clearly see he still has a plan and structure... Ned's death and Red Wedding weren't ass-pulls.
The problem starts when you do that inconsistantly - like with the insane amounts of plot armour Tyrion and Arya get.

>>5238093
> Tyrion's helmet had a big long spike on it
> Would break his neck if someone hit it

>>5240454
So begging the question would be to ask something like: Why is Twilight so great?

>>5242343
>Mistborn
>Wheel of Time
>Recommending both in the same post
HOW FUCKING DARE YOU?!