/lit/ - Literature

What's right about it?

>>5253029
becuase i love a big piece of meat in my mouth.
and eating grass is for faggots.

>>5253029
I'll try not to be a cunt but I'll stop at the point of self-harm, so no veganism for me. I do live ascetically though, so I fuck the world over less than most people, especially breeders.

>>5253035
Well if you do not wish humans to suffer, then there is not any justification for inflicting suffering upon animals.

>>5253029
it feels holy to eat pork. i worship the animals i eat and i feel the energy they give to me is a gift. i don't deserve this gift so i try to stay away from animal products but i love the earth and i love what is offered to me.

>>5253056

What suffering is there in death?

>>5253050
Veganism is not self-harm. Vegans live longer on average than omnivores. And just because you aren't so bad compared to everyone else does not make you good. That is akin to a murderer saying "I only killed one person, Hitler killed millions, therefore I am not so bad."

>>5253029
Because cheese doesn't feel pain when I slice it!

>>>/ck/

>Eats

I don't call myself a vegan a) because I eat honey so it'd be erroneous and b) because I feel like there's this idea of prescriptivism and discipline involved with veganism, like y'know you've engaged vegan mode or whatever and now you cannot by law eat meat or animal products. I really don't like when people say stuff like "you can't eat this", I absolutely can, I just have no interest in it. I don't want to. And any reasons I have for not eating meat or animal products just stem from basic thought processes and ideals that basically everyone else holds anyway. I really think the majority of people that eat meat do so quite simply because they just do not think about it. And I think far less meat eaters than vegans could give any real well-thought-out justification for their diet

>being veg for "moral/philosophical" reasons
>not being veg for the environment

>>5253074
Also this

>>5253057
Moron

>>5253062
This might actually be a valid point. But the same argument could be used to justify murdering anyone. That said, the chances are overwhelmingly likely that the animal products you consume are produced with unimaginable horror. Watch videos about factory farming. The suffering is nightmarish.

I really just don't care

>>5253074

>being vegan is actually worse for the environment and kills/displaces more animals than farming

oops!

>>5253068
I'd literally die, medical conditions and all that.

>>5253070
The cow you get it from does by the way it's kept.

>>5253082

Well that's your responsibility as a consumer to know where your food is coming from.

>>5253086
You've consulte a dietitian about it then I take it? You seem so sure after all.

I was vegan for a long time because I couldn't draw any distinction between killing/torturing people for my convenience and killing/torturing animals for my convenience, even if one comes from a species that can write poems and the other can't (or whatever arbitrary metric retards like to use to justify their basic might=right argument)

It's not bad. It's very hard though. For me it was about not directly supporting any companies that used animal products, but this is super fucking hard. Sometimes even if you find a really good food that lets you work around your constant craving for pizza, you find out it's made by a partner of P&G or some other rabbit-obliterator.

>>5253029
>Why aren't I a vegan?
I like meat.

>Too weak willed to do the right thing?
What is the right thing anyway?
It's okay as long as your mentality is, "I've killed this cow for sustenance, clothing, and other purpose."

It's not if your mentality is, "It's just an animal."

>>5253029
Hunting wild animals to extinction is the right thing.

>>5253104
Can you please stop spamming this?

>>5253102
Why, then, do you not kill humans for sustenance, clothing, etc.? It'd be pretty metal imo

>>5253070
Milk cows experience a living hell to produce their milk.

>>5253072
You might argue that insects are not cognizant enough to fall under ethical veganism. (Although I do not necessarily agree with this.) And you describe yourself as essentially vegan with a few *'s on the end. You seem more opposed to the stigma than to the position. And what I really mean to discuss is the position.

>>5253074
Environmentalism is a moral/philosophical position. And the environment is a very good reason for going vegan, although I'd wager the anti-suffering aspect of veganism is probably more important.

>>5253090
Of course.

>>5253108
If I were to post that without the image it may have been taken the wrong way. It's relevant to the topic.

>>5253086
That's too bad. Help us end capitalism so we can properly address the dairy industries bad practices.

>>5253111
Because I don't see them that way. So, I guess my thinking is flawed. Something is always getting the axe's edge.

I have some vegan friends who actually began as a big fuck you to corporate American and to the capitalistic processes controlling what went into their bodies. The animal rights part came later. But veganism can help someone live more or less off the corporate grid, to be more self-sufficient.

Please stop hating on vegans, and vegans stop all of the negativity for people who don't see it how you do and continue to consume animal products. I cannot stand vegans who think they are better than everyone else but then act like shitty people to those who eat meat, dairy.

>>5253116
You're absolutely right yeah, I have an issue with the stigma. I find people end up more engaged if I say "oh I don't eat [animal product]" than if I say "I'm a vegan", they ask me why and I tell them and then we're having a conversation, probably involving a few things they hadn't considered before (the environment included). If I say "no not for me, I'm vegan" they think "pfft. what a smug cunt, fuck vegans forreal. note to self: eat a sausage right in his face. hehehe"

>>5253072
This is exactly how I feel about my vegan diet because my family treats me like all of my food choices are externally determined by some PETA leader. I always say that I CAN eat meat, dairy if I want, but I just CHOOSE not to.

Keep doin' what you're doin'~~ v cool thinking

>>5253101
Good on you, I'd say it is impossible to absolutely remove yourself from a supply chain in which something unethical happens along the way. It is enough to try hard to minimize your impact.

>>5253084
This is just incorrect, nobody argue with him.

>>5253089
I'm open to the idea that milk or other animal products such as eggs could be harvested in an ethical manner. I just go baseline vegan unless I know for certain it was produced ethically.

>>5253029
I'm a perfectionist and see no point in taking small steps if I can't do it all perfectly.
That in additition with my hatred for hypocrasy.

In Germany, we have a famous vegan who tours the media and shits on people for being bad for the animals and the environment, and with the money he got from this publicly-shitting-on-people, he bought a Porsche with leather seats.

That pretty much sums vegan people up for me.

>>5253142
I know exactly what you mean. I don't go into it unless I am asked, and I am asked a lot. I almost always can get them to see where I am coming from, but occasionally you get people who just don't get it. And fuck them if they are going to be baselessly characterizing you. Those people don't deserve your concern.

>>5253116
-> >>5253133

>>5253152
You can't hold any position without encountering a paradox at some point.

And don't let one blatant hypocrite sully a good idea. Just because one person sucks at something doesn't mean that no one can do it right.

One thing I never understood about vegetarians/vegans.

Do you not consume animal products because it is wrong, and here is the important part, for it to happen? If it is wrong why do you let other people do it?

A small amount of the population opting out of the flow of capital isn't going to change living conditions for the majority of farm animals, maybe a small amount but seriously the atrocity still goes on.

Vegetarianism/veganism really just looks like vanity to me, as it is in popular culture. I still respect your discipline but seriously you should be terrorists, such an atrocity(if you see it as such) should be ended by all means necessary.

On this note, fuck pet owners.

>>5253181
I think it would be ineefective to become terrorists. Also, there is a hypocrisy in inflicting suffering to end suffering, although perhaps the magnitude of one suffering justifies the other. All in all I don't think it would be successful. Start small and build momentum in a peaceful manner is what I'd say. Promotion, raising awareness and introducing legislature are the ways I think would be most effective to propagate the cause.

One of the main arguments I hear against veganism is the idea that the people preaching against the injustice of killing and harming animals are completely oblivious or apathetic towards the injustices involved in the lives of the (human) workers who provide their vegan-based diet, who are most likely underpaid overworked minority groups that spend all their day picking carrots for middle class american hipsters. There's points to be made there but the people making this argument seem to have completely ignored the facts that a) they, too, consume the same products and are therefore complicit in the same injustice on top of the ones that some vegans might claim to transcend and b) Slaughterhouse workers are definitely real people that really exist. One of the highest turnover rates of any career, in every country worked by underpaid and abused workers, often from minority backgrounds; I mean you've got everything you need to know about factory farming, class structure, corporate power, etc. right there but it gets continually ignored because it negates one of the very few arguments these people have to excuse the fact they quite simply can't be bothered to either justify their behaviour or change it.

>>5253148
PETA also suck extremely hard

>>5253181
Vegetarians are the worst.

>shooting a freely, naturally living animal in the wild in an instant to eat it is wrong
>keeping a cow in a little cage and raiding its tits violently for life is okay, as long as you don't eat it after you put it out of its misery
>btw here are pictures of my five spoiled cats who torture and kill thousands of birds and other animals recreationally and are actually a tremendous strain on the environment
>and here is my little slave misbred shivering scared miserable chihuahua, isn't it cute, it was spawned into its handicapped existence for my entertainment, look how nice it is in my bag

>>5253178
The point is that you can't do it right. What motivates you and seems to be altruism is actually your need to validate yourself by getting rid of the guilt you feel.

But you can't. It's a sale of indulgences. You feel better about yourself because you don't kill this random cow, while your choice of products, your choice to browse the Internet for fun produces another magnitude of suffering that you just ignore.

If you were really motivated by deep pity, you'd live as a hermit or kill yourself.

I find it more honest to just eat the steak than to call yourself vegan but still drive a car instead of only walking and pretending you're in any way different from all the other people.

That one example was just that. I don't think he is a uniquely terrible person. He's every vegan ever.

>>5253203
The best way is to provide meatfags with a way to indulge without harming animals. Vat grown meat. If you want to diminish suffering, become a scientist who works on these type of food solutions.

>>5253181
but I love my puppy and she's one of my only friends

<---

>>5253148
I suppose I'm just wary of prescribing to set out guidelines in broad ideologies in the first place, its mindless and it works in complete opposition to free thought and free will

>>5253029
>"The right thing."

Very well, considering the difference between right and wrong is completely subjective, I'll just superimpose my own dichotomy of right and wrong and say that the right thing is to have a healthy, stable balance of animal products as well as vegan food products.

Even the fellows who hijacked the planes and blew up the Twin Towers thought they were doing the "right thing," so why should I trust the perception of morality of anyone other than myself?

>>5253227
Fantastic image, I love it! Now I can feel ok about eating meat again :D

>>5253227
this is just congratulatory jerkoff shit for people who hate veganism though. just because a lot of shit comes from animals doesn't mean you can't make an ethical choice not to eat them, and minimize what you use that does come from them.

>>5253029

Because I lift and am not stupid.

>>5253233
>and minimize what you use that does come from them.
Not at all actually feasible.
Naive pipedream for vegans to justify their stupid lifestyle.

>>5253240
hey I lift too :(

>>5253241
>minimize
completely feasible

>>5253222
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You talk about "meatfags" who "indulge" and cause "suffering".

Don't tell me you do that without an air of superiority. Don't tell me you're actually motivated by pity or wanting to make a change.

Donate all of your money silently towards saving the tigers from going extinct in our lifetime instead of spending it loudly on overpriced middle-class greenwashing food and we can talk.

>>5253246
Not to any significant extent, only to the typical shallow extent that vegans do.

>>5253219
"What motivates you and seems to be altruism is actually your need to validate yourself by getting rid of the guilt you feel."

This in no way invalidates my position.

"your choice to browse the Internet for fun produces another magnitude of suffering that you just ignore."

I am not even close to perfect. That doesn't mean I shouldn't take steps to get there, and Veganism is not a bad step to take.

And I actually agree with you that to end my own existence and the existence of all others would be the best possible outcome, I am much too big a coward to do it. In lieu of that I am propelled by my guilt to at least make some efforts to minimize my wrongdoings.

I'd much prefer a cognitively dissonant vegan than an authentic serial rapist. Wouldn't you.

>>5253240

What does that have to do with anything?

>>5253233
No, it just shows you that some people don't go as far as to stop eating meat and some people don't go as far as to stop buying wallpaper.

And you're no better than other people just because your willpower is at 5% instead of 2%.
In fact, you're worse. Other people at least don't make their bad decision after educating themselves for years and following an ideology. They just fucking eat what tastes well. You overthink your actions and still can't get to moral results.

>>5253247
I'm an unapologetic meatfag myself. I just recognise that people like pleasure and hate inconvenience so if you want to make their behaviour better on a large scale you have to do so without making it hard for them and if possible by making their lives even easier. It has to appeal to their self-interest. If you're counting on large scale altruism to change the world you're no different than any other pipe dream ideology.

>>5253255
"I'd much prefer a cognitively dissonant vegan than an authentic serial rapist. Wouldn't you."

What is it with vegans and dishonest rhetorics?

I wouldn't prefer to be a serial rapist, but I would prefer being an honest consumer over being a cognitively dissonant consumer, yes.

If I kill a few fat people coming out of a burger king but don't stop eating meat myself, I'm being more animal friendly than vegans.

>>5253285
Fat doesn't necessarily mean excessive diet

>>5253265
>>5253271

I don't see anything in your reasoning that condemns someone from being the biggest cunt imaginable. Why should someone not be evil, according to you?

>>5253287
In 99% of the cases it does though. I'll make sure they're American for even better odds.

>>5253271
Completely agree, and sorry, English isn't my first language and we use you/one a bit differently. I was making a general point. People are just lost in spending billions of money on research into how they can greenwash their diet while being completely blind to what it actually takes to rid themselves of the guilt of their impact.

>>5253289
I was just giving pragmatic advice. If you want someone to do something, make it worth his while. That's the only sure way to get someone to do what you want.

My personal ethics didn't enter into it.

>>5253265
how am I not getting moral results? Seems you that you have some sort of bias/are a defeatist/ or are trying to justify your eating habits and think your idea of ethics is superior to mine. Also, its fairly clear you're the one overthinking the actions of vegans, not me. I can't eliminate every single item made from a part of an animal, but I can stop consuming the primary part that is used from their bodies, and the main reason they are slaughtered and domesticated in the first place.

All those other things we can find better ways to make, and the ethical choice to stop consuming their flesh inevitably helps that process.

>>5253259

Is this a real question? Well, if you lift and want to grow and recover properly, the most efficient way is to eat good sources of proteins.
Lean meat and alike are also quite good for health anyway.

Vegan diets are unbalanced and sometimes dangerously lacking.
To be vegan is also quite annoying, socially and personaly. Well, as regards the social side, I think it's quite obvious; for the personal one, vegan diets are actually quite hard to follow properly if you want to keep being in good health.

Just sayin'.

>inb4 ayyylmao meat is poison and you don't need it since evolution hasn't made us for that, etc. I know the drill.

>>5253289
My point is to stay humble and to find your motivation in actually being a better person, silently, as opposed to congratulating yourself on those tiny steps and letting the world know.

And is someone who beats their wife every weekend really a less evil person than the one who beats his wife every day of the week?

I'm not suggesting not to bother with trying at all. I'm just very disgusted with the modern, popcultural vegan movement.

If you're a vegan but not an antinatalist you're a filthy misanthropic speciesist hypocrite.

>>5253304
I just really want to know why you think anyone should try to be a good person. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I think the question I am asking is extremely important to understanding your position.Can you please answer it for me?

>>5253306
What is the moral result you're getting?
You flaunt to other people about how you can't understand how these people can consciously cause suffering - but that's exactly what you do, too.

Maybe you stopped eating meat. Did you stop taking planes? Driving cars? Aren't animals dying for you to live comfortably in a hundred other ways? Aren't you destroying nature too?

The only difference I see is that other people don't think about their actions in this way by default and are blind to it.
But you're not blind to it, you know enough to lecture people and to flaunt - but you're too lazy and egoistical to do anything more than baby steps. You want the feeling of superiority at the smallest cost.

And to me, that's even worse.

Just my personal opinion. Of course I'm thinking about it, I thought that is what the topic is for.

>>5253337
You were quoting two different people - I have made a few posts here, he didn't say much I think. My response is somewhere higher up.

>>5253307
The actual amount of protein you need to live a full healthy life is ridiculously small honestly, like about .36 grams per pound of body weight. Its been proved multiple times and its really amazing to me how often people cite a lack of protein as some kind of legitimate criticism of veganism, not to mention that you can find protein basically everywhere: beans, broccoli, cauliflower, brown rice, cacao/chocolate, wheatgrass, lentils, pretty much all grains, nuts, and seeds. As for annoyance, that sort of thing comes almost entirely from a place of insecurity and I've not once came into a situation where someone that otherwise would've been my friend actually has any kind of negative feeling towards me based on my diet. I couln't really say I have any interest in being friends with someone like that anyway.

>>5253337
I guess you meant this guy: >>5253353
Because I didn't post anything else than the vat meat post and my later explanation for it.

>>5253346
It is literally impossible to be a good person, but why not try? Who cares if you're dishonest with yourself, or not going the whole ten yards? The more you try the better, and the more dissonance and hypocrisy you can shuck the better. I see no reason not to aim as high as you can on this continuum of moral legitimacy.

>>5253364
He's talking about weightlifting and putting on mass, which means you need 0.7-1g and if you're not a little hipster twig, that can be something like 200g per day.

And believe me, getting that from a vegan diet is a pain in the ass.

And if you knew what you're talking about, you wouldn't cite single plants as containing protein as if some just come without amino acids. Enjoy those 30kg of cauliflower per day.

>>5253381
>Who cares if you're dishonest with yourself, or not going the whole ten yards?
Eh, if that is your position we can just end our discussion here, we'll never agree on anything.

>>5253364

Why did I even post? I don't feel the need to validate my diets, and even less to convince anonymous people.
Assertotic statements are here useless, for medical schools are, as in every medical field, fighting one another. So I'm talking about my experience. Anyway, when one follow a diet, I believe the motto should always be "do what works for you, regardless of the rest".

Yeah, proteins in broccolis. Do you even lift? I'm telling you, go do heavy-ass squat sessions and just eat your nuts and beans, etc., and your 0.36 g per kg of bodyweight. Let's see how you'll feel after a month of it. Well, if you ever manage to go beyond the 1.5 times your bodyweight level anyway.

That. Second, have you ever heard of aminogram? Yes. Have some fun creating your meals, mate.

Good luck in life. I have to go to work.

Ah, and consider reading science articles. Not hocus-bogus stuff about how fruits free your chakras. Just kidding.

>>5253337
I think when people need to decide how to act(good or bad) they should act such that the event acted out is the one that is most aesthetically pleasing for a non-interested third party.

>>5253394
Why should that not be my position? Im pretty curious to be honest. I don't know if we'll agree (I doubt it), but you have me thinking a lot and I want to better understand where you're coming from.

>>5253419
hey i agree with this and to me that third party is god

penis shit fuck

>>5253029
Because eating meat is pleasurable for me. And so long as meat and other animal products are available I'll continue enjoying it.

>>5253425
but god has shit taste

>>5253419
I don't consider it impossible to be a good person. I just consider it incredibly hard. Harder than I am willing to do to myself.

But to me, it is important to be honest with myself. To admit that I am doing fuck-all to save the planet. Not to be proud of any baby-steps or to feel superior to the sheeple who still eat animals because they are so weak-willed.

I feel bad for calling it "aiming high" when I'm merely taking the lowest hurdle, the common denominator that current popular culture tells us is what you have to do to consider yourself a "greener" person than all those neanderthals.

This lying-to-myself is worse for me.

I'm not trying to defend my eating habits here, I too try to be a "better" human. I think much of my problem lies with the attitudes presented and with the way our current society praises veganism and "abuses" it.

If you're interested in aiming high, look up Jainism. And then you're still only 50% there.

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>>5253029
Why do you use fossil fuels and petroleum products?

Are you too weak willed to ride a bike with wooden tires?

>>5253463
This answers my questions very nicely, thanks. I suppose suicide is the highest form of being a better person, eh? If I had the willpower I'd kill myself. But I definitely don't.

Vegan getting btfo in this thread. Looks like the philosophy students decided to take a break from their studies and rape a faggot using subtle argumentation and logic.