/lit/ - Literature

>>5612147
Triple yes

>>5612147
Yes. Theres simply nothing that comes close in history.

No, africans could of done all those things, only they were oppressed by the white man

>>5612147
Yeah, probably, maybe, not quite sure. The greeks may have got it from someone else.

Nah, the Indian or Mayans trump Europeans in creativity. But most inventive? Surely, the Europeans are.

Absolutely not. indo-european culture?? pfft hahahahahahahahaha

>>5612147
>>5612192
>>5612285

>Racists who know nothing about African, Islamic, or Indo-Asian culture and society.

I think reading this after having a Spenglerian background gives it an amplifying force.

The West is unique, but so are all the other civilizations.
Only ours with its infinity impulse could go global, could go highly technological, could be ever restless in its creativity.

>inb4 durr muh contingency

>>5612303
Superiority isn't racist :')

Uniqueness of a culture/civilization is pretty much a truism.
This can be said about any civilization.
So the title is a bit self-evident.

>>5612318
Thats what American white supremacists say, but truthfully it is just closeted racism.

Europe is not unique in democracy, nor is it unique in being creative.

>>5612147
So this book is Spengler 2.0?

>muh unique Faustian civilisation
>muh restless aristocratic spirit
>muh boundless space

>>5612334

Is he wrong though?

>>5612331
>So the title is a bit self-evident.
its either a truism or a claim of supremacy.

>>5612147
>unparalleled democratic culture
Native Americans
>universities, reading societies, intellectual salons and newspapers
China
>heroic warriors striving for individual fame and recognition
virtually any aggressive tribal culture
>'berserker' style of warfare
Native Americans

>>5612342
He is not wrong that is unique, but all societies are unique. He is wrong if he making claims of superiority.

>>5612333

Asians aren't really as creative.
They'll admit that themselves.

http://www.amazon.com/Asians-Less-Creative-than-Westerners/dp/0130404756

>>5612354

He never really did.
Read the book.
He hailed the Arabs as much for their achievements as he did with the Chinese.
His focuss is just the West as it is, supposedly, in decline.
But he won't say "we deh best." Only that we could have done the things we've done.
Are we better? Nature doesn't care as he said and that's all we should take from that.

>>5612367
> Only we could have done the things we've done.
> Not a claim of superiority.

>>5612374
as this guy pointed out,
>>5612345
it's not. but if that's not what Duchesne means it's barely worth saying. it's a statement that contributes nothing remotely new to any discourse.

>>5612374

That's still not a claim of superiority, dumbass.
Oh yeah, it was a matter of time before the Chinese started going Baroque, colonized the New World and started moving towards the ideas of the Enlightenment.

It was also a matter of time before we started developping yoga and Zen philosophy.

Chill nigga, no one's claiming superiority over (not) doing shit.

>>5612359
You cant make generalizations based on the opinion of one person. Do you have sourced empirical data to back it up. I can think of many important inventions that originated in china and India.

>>5612342
The existence of a distinct Indo-European culture stretching back more than 3000 years seems difficult to demonstrate, as does the argument that the Indo-Europeans were different from all the other peoples of the Eurasian steppes.

>>5612385
It may not be a claim of superiority, but it is a bit dense. Just because one society does something doesn't mean another society can't achieve the same thing through different methods.

>>5612390

>"there are other voices out there, I can't name them, but they are there, lalallala can't hear you lallala"

/lit/ is a pathetic shithole.

>>5612390
Don't worry, the author has done his research on inventions.

>In my book, I argue that the West has always been in a state of divergence from the rest of the world’s cultures, characterized by persistent creativity from ancient to modern times across all fields of human thought and action. Within every generation one finds individuals searching for new worlds, new religious visions, and new styles of painting, architecture, music, science, philosophy, and literature—in comparative contrast to the non-Western world where cultural outlooks tended to persist for long periods with only slight variations and revisions. Using Charles Murray’s, Human Accomplishment, Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 BC to 1950, 1 I point out, for example, that ninety-seven percent of accomplishment in the sciences occurred in Europe and North America from 800 BC to 1950. In a subsequent publication, I note that around ninety-five percent of all explorers in history were European (2012). It is my claim that the ultimate roots of this creativity should be traced back to the aristocratic warlike culture of the Indo-Europeans.

>>5612402
The term Europe was invented by the Greeks to distinguish themselves from Asia and Africa. They would not have identified themselves as European. And until the wars with Persia they would not even have identified themselves as Greeks. They would have been Athenians or Macedonians or Spartans members of some other city state.

>>5612419
This was because china did not invent glass until much later than the western world and were behind it terms of science. This is because they were so skilled with porcelain and paper that they did not need it. This is not a lack of creativity.>>5612416

>>5612147
No, this is clearly retarded

>>5612416
you want some examples?
Moveable type. Gunpowder. Mechanical clocks. Porecelin. Newspapers.

>>5612423
Is this Sparta?

>>5612446
Pomo academic detected

>>5612419
>citing Charles Murray

>>5612147
>>5612147
>Is he right about the Greek invention of liberal democratic society?
No. The Greeks certainly weren't liberal, and their definition of 'democracy' was nothing like ours.
>Is he right about Europe being the most creative civilization?
No, because Europe isn't creative. Rational and determined, yes. 'Creative', no.
>Is he right about the inherent superiority of Indo-European culture?
No. There's no such thing as 'Indo-European culture'. But even if there was, Afghanistan would be the stereotypical 'Indo-European' country, and there's nothing superior about that.

If anything, you can claim that Christianity is an inherently superior religion. But you're all degenerate atheists and won't agree to that.
(Ethnocentric theories flower where true civilization and culture has died.)

>>5612599
>If anything, you can claim that Christianity is an inherently superior religion.

why?

>>5612353
>>unparalleled democratic culture
>Native Americans
this is a troll, right?

>>5612669
The Greeks had aristocracy, and a few had a mixture of aristocracy and democracy but other societies, especially nomadic, had much more democratic political systems. The Greeks and later the European republics did have a much more democratic system in a developed society with cities and government though. They also made it into a philosophy and debated the ideas. So props for that but come on, there have been freer people.

>i'll answer shoddy historiography with some shoddy historiography of my own

>>5612599
>No, because Europe isn't creative.
What the fuck?
>greatest painting, sculpture, poetry, music, architecture, etc. of all time
>not creative

>intrinsic quality of Western civilization

How is any of this even arguable? Any statement either side would make would be tied up with far too many value judgments to make conversation worthwhile. You have to first buy into the "inherent" quality of things (hello Plato) and from there pretend that cultural accomplishments are quantifiable. That's just to start.

And you can trace inventions in culture to certain civilizations and time periods (well, an anthropologist or a historian might be able to, but I doubt /lit/ even has the google research skills to have a go at this), but you can't ignore other realities of a culture. Like you can point to the immense boon to culture of Renaissance Italy, but you couldn't ignore how incredibly murderous the dynasties of Florence were.

You'd also have to make a convincing argument for progressivism. You'd have to argue that more inventions equals a better culture, as if that must be taken for fact.

I don't see why anyone would care to argue AGAINST these positions. You wouldn't have a leg to stand on because the issue is basically not arguable. Leave the /pol/s to themselves.

>>5612699
>ou have to first buy into the "inherent" quality of things
Not a problem for the vast majority of people on Earth and throughout history, despite what your professors may have implied

>>5612698
>greatest ... by western standards

lmfao

>>5612147

general premise is surprisingly correct, even though it goes against or current ideology. Very well researched book.

>Middle-Eastern social organisation
>Middle-Eastern religion
>Middle-Eastern science and mathematics

Original character do not steal

>>5612642
>>If anything, you can claim that Christianity is an inherently superior religion.


I'm not Christian, I'm agnostic/atheist but even I can admit Christianity is basically the best religion possible, the highest peak we've reached so far (Yes it's superior to even Buddhism/Daoism)...

>>5612710
>>greatest ... by western standards

Western standards matter to Europeans though. That's like asking Chinese to use African standards to judge their caligraphy, art, food, architecture, ethics...doesn't make any sense

>>5612731
>basically the best religion possible

how?

>Western standards matter to Europeans though

yeah so we're not really looking at intrinsic worth then. just european taste

>>5612147
contemporary history revisionists really are just anti-capitalists, who somehow wish to white-wash history and make it seem like the west was one abstract empire that simply did two things: exploit and consume. while those are both true factors, it's almost undeniable that, geographically, those who would be found in europe on the advent of modernity would be leading the world.

if you want to discuss individualism versus collectivism, then 100%, the 'west' in the classical sense is truly different than the rest of the world. this foundation led, supposedly, to a 'unique aristocratic culture'.

all in all, it's really dependent on where you were on the earth at a time. just look at the fall of the roman empire and the rise of islam and the golden age of the arabs. too many factors for one human mind to consider.

>>5612738
>how?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9lPLzvkCjE&

>yeah so we're not really looking at intrinsic worth then

the idea of "intrinsic value" vs "relative" is a western european philosophical issue, I mean, for you to even say such a thing is to borrow our language :)

>>5612703
>implying implying we write things in green text college "joeks" haha liberal arts you must be in collargeeee

>inherent quality of things
I agree that this sort of magical thinking is pervasive, and that anyone here gives credence to it should be a hint to others to stay the fuck away from this thread.

>>5612756
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9lPLzvkCjE&

alright so you don't know what you're talking about

>the idea of "intrinsic value" vs "relative" is a western european philosophical issue, I mean, for you to even say such a thing is to borrow our language :)

and?

>>5612749
>too many factors for one human mind to consider.

That's the problem with people like us.

We understand our own ignorance, so retarded fucking leftist faggots who are nothing but guilt and thanatos and cuckoldry who would love nothing better than to commit civilization suicide are the ones who control everything.

>>5612773
>we understand our own ignorance
i usually think this would lead to enlightenment, like indifference.

>retarded fucking leftist faggots
what's the deal man. these are just spooks, illusions.

>>5612669

Research the Iroquois

>>5612788
>4chan
>research

rofl

>>5612599

>No, because Europe isn't creative. Rational and determined, yes. 'Creative', no
How do you figure?

I don't think it's the MOST creative, especially if we're just talking about it as it is today, but saying the birthplace of the renaissance and the enlightenment isn't "creative" seems dense. Even if you want to argue that the later isn't necessarily an original concept, an awful lot of creative thought drove it to fruition.
Any argument against the originality of European culture boils down to "the painter isn't original, because he didn't invent the fucking paint." They took their religion from the middle east? Well sure! And after a few short centuries, it was so infused with European paganism and politics that it was barely recognizable.

>>5612764
>alright so you don't know what you're talking about

He explains part of the reason just fine. In terms of facilitating "freedom". If you want more go read Chesterton or Kierkegaard or Eliot..etc

>and?

Firstly, you're already presupposing a European standard...a European filter... :^)

And secondly I think that some of our accomplishments do have 'intrinsic' value basically to any human: things like health sciences, massive reduction of poverty, jurisprudence & human rights, social freedom...etc

>>5612797
>He explains part of the reason just fine

somehow i doubt he's going to say "christianity is the best religion possible"

>And secondly I think that some of our accomplishments do have 'intrinsic' value basically to any human

this relates to art how?

goddamn go back and start again with arguments that are more well thought out and less vague

>>5612710
>the entire rest of the world adopts your music, art, architecture, etc.
yeah totally just western standards

Looks like nobody knows about word-systems theory

>>5612806
wow really? you believe this?

>>5612806
forced by power

>>5612353
>China
You mean murrca, right?

>>5612824
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernization

>>5612824
You're wearing a T-shirt and so is Mkembe in Nambia.

>>5612832
you forgetting everything the west adopted from the east, or...?

>>5612826
But if we're all the same how is that possible? I thought we were all supposed to be equal so what gives? Why aren't we?

>>5612826
yeah those Japanese and Chinese musicians were held at gunpoint to develop an extensive culture of western art music

>The Iliad, Beowulf, The Song of Roland, including such Irish, Icelandic and Germanic Sagas as Lebor na hUidre, Njals Saga, Gisla Saga Sursonnar, and The Nibelungenlied recount the heroic deeds and fame of aristocrats. These are the earliest voices from the dawn of Western civilization.

Right.... so what about the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, the Vedas, Epic of Gilgamesh, the Analects, the Tripitaka, the Tao Te Ching, the Journey to the West?

>>5612842
power doesn't force people directly only
power changes the life and tastes of people around them
if china was the leading force of humanity its culture would be leading too and the conquered west would mostly create art in chinese style

>>5612805
>somehow i doubt he's going to say "christianity is the best religion possible"

read the title of the video again. And yes people like Kierkegaard / Eliot /Chesterton argued specifically that Christianity is the best religion and gave reasons why.
>this relates to art how?

Art is just one category of achievement.

The argument was the accomplishments of European civilization in general. Not just our art.

Our "intrinsic" accomplishments are undeniable as I listed before.

And the idea that our art is relative to our perspective is irrelevant. Our perspective is PRECISELY what matters, not some alien culture that has barely any relation or importance to us...

>>5612850
What about them?
>writes book about the unique aspects of European culture
>why is he not mentioning non-European works

God, this book about Confucius's impact on Chinese and Korean culture sucks. It doesn't even have any passages from the novelization of Gilligan's Island!

>>5612850

Oh yeah and let's not forget the Zhuangzi, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Old Testament (which arose in the Middle East, so to call it Western in origin is dubious), One Thousand and One Nights, the Mathnawi of Rumi

>>5612821
World-systems theory has an interesting explanation for European creativity: Europe was semi-peripheral to world trade until the discovery of the New World, so European states were forced to innovate in order to remain competitive.

>>5612864
no it wouldn't because it's culture isn't as good. take the insane influence of black americans on white ones in popular music in the 20th century, completely inattributable to power dynamics being as they were an oppressed class

>>5612867

It's called comparing and contrasting. You can't claim something is great in a vacumn

>>5612864

the mongols had their time in the sun and fucked it up

>>5612883
god is great in a vacuum

>>5612883
>You can't claim something is great in a vacumn

Comparing and contrasting is for elementary school reports. No one thinks Moby Dick is "great" because of how it compares to other fish stories.
Great art tends to be very singular. Kafka's metamorphosis isn't "great" because of comparing and contrasting, it stands on it's own feet.

>>5612878
>it's culture isn't as good
this is a simplistic view of what culture is and power dynamics. black culture isn't inherently good (it's a whole lot shittier on aesthetic, literary and technical levels) but white people fetishized the black experience and the negro as authentic, primitive, rhythmic etc, which lead them to appropriate their music more. the same relationship don't exist with chinese. they're viewed as stilted, robotic, inauthentic, etc.

>>5612897
>but white people fetishized the black experience and the negro as authentic, primitive, rhythmic etc, which lead them to appropriate their music more.
jesus fucking christ i hate liberals, no you fuck their culture was just better. there are variables that create richness in culture, different amounts of them will create different amounts of richness

>>5612865
>best religion

but not the best religion POSSIBLE, as you said

choose your words more carefully i guess

>Art is just one category of achievement.

so what is impressive about western art?

>>5612897

ya, the noble savage bullshit has long tentacles

>>5612883
No, but you also don't typically put the supporting reasons for the claims that your whole book is dedicated to in the preface.
Even if you did, he's not claiming the listed works are greater or lesser than your given works, so I really don't know what your fucking point is. Can I not write a book about how awesome Native American culture is without comparing it to modern American culture and giving reasons for why it's better than modern American culture?

Pol here. I was told that lit had fallen to the SJW ideology, and was full of cultural marxist, relativist cretins.

I am proud that there are still anons fighting the good fight. Don't let these subhuman abominations take away your pride in your culture, race and identity. Their weasel words and dissimulation should have no influence on anyone with a shred of insight.

>>5612903
good job spouting something unrelated you once heard that you think applies because the people in question are 'primitive' to you
>black man in america
>noble savage
christ you're retarded

>>5612891
YES IT IS HOLY SHIT LOL YOU ARE RETARDED

>>5612909
>work of art creates transcendent immediate reaction in person
>hurr its all relative

>>5612891

Yeah, and what do you do when you encounter someone who disagrees with you about what you think is great?

>>5612897
>but white people fetishized the black experience and the negro....
If I've told you once, /pol/, I've told you a million times.
No one on a blue board wants to see your interracial cuckold porn.

>>5612909
"Yes it is" doesn't apply to any portion of his post

>>5612914
that's not /pol/ that's leftist rhetoric wherein when white people dislike black culture its racism and when they like it its fetishization. its based off on interpreting fucking *everything* through power dynamic victim/oppressor dichotomies while completely denying any other viewpoints

>>5612901
>choose your words more carefully i guess

nah, u should just be less autistic

>>5612922
/pol/ pls

>>5612897
confirmed for having no fucking clue about blues or jazz history

>>5612913
If you're a liberal arts student at my college who encounters someone who doesn't think African or Native American culture is particularly impressive or desirable?
You shout "racist" and run to your nearest rape counselor. After three deep breaths and a bit of Valium, you should be all set to return to class.

>>5612925
>don't read what i say, you have to guess what i actually mean (but i won't tell you this)

soz

>>5612909
>>5612906

>being this incoherent and flustered

>>5612922
No, no.
I'm pretty sure the interracial cuckold porn is /pol/.

>>5612928

i chuckled

>>5612933
who makes these images and do they realize how odd they are

>>5612898
>their culture was just better
no. objectively their culture is a whole lot more simplistic and shittier on a whole lot of levels. the richness is just confirmation bias on their widespread influence and appropriation by whites.

>>5612922
>denying any other viewpoints
you haven't really stated any worthy viewpoints

>>5612935
4chan culture is cutting edge.

>>5612932
>Spammed and banned
>Prevelant on /gif/, the sissy hypno tranny board

You're le ebin, anon

>>5612935
>who makes these images

jesus christ you're new

>>5612928

You didn't answer the question dude. Stop shitposting and answer it. Mockery doesn't excuse you from critical thinking. How do you interact with people that hold different viewpoints from you?

>>5612938
>>denying any other viewpoints

right, that's your job

>>5612948
jesus christ you're a loser

>>5612950
>How do you interact with people that hold different viewpoints from you?

You discuss the merits of the work and why you value it. Simple.

>>5612954
>>5612954
>>>/tumblr/

>>5612954
Why are you even on the internet you putrid ignorant shitstain?
>"Hurr le durr who makes le anon maymay images on le autism mem bored xD"
>"LOL I BET UR A NECKBEARD WHO LIVES AT HOME & NO LYF"
>"no but srsly whol?

>>5612952
tell me when you've managed to think up of one so i can 'deny it'

>>5612954
>>>/tumblr/

>>5612958

Nice. Reasonable answer

>>5612948
im really not, i've just never really understood where they come from or what reaction they're supposed to provoke other than 'this is odd'

>>5612973
>I think the miniscule amount of time I've been here is relatively long despite being this retarded

lol

>>5612969
>>>/lgbt/

>>5612990
>>>/b/

>>5613000
>>>/w/aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

>>5612994
>>>/mybed/ ;)

>>5612990
I spent most of 2011, 2012 and 2013 on /mu/ after which I came here

>>5613004
pics plox

>>5613005
>2011
>Not a newfag

HahahahahahahahahahahahahahHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

>>5613017
i wasted what is now almost 4 years browsing this website for hours a day, with very little gained from it, do you really have to insult me on top of that

>>5613021
M8 I left for the first two years you were here and now here we are. How do you think I feel?

>>5612950
I'm not shit posting. I'm drawing an analogy.
If you want to go with the whole "egalitarian" bit, when it comes to culture, they all have to either be equally shitty, equally unimpressive, or equally great.
If you want to actually compare and contrast cultures objectively, the only universal standard that exists by which to do so is "which culture produces a higher standard of living." Coincidentally, that's western culture. Western culture pervades every country that's worth fucking living in right now. You don't want to be a working class man in China, or Africa, at least not for another few decades. You might want to be a working man in South Korea, Japan, or hell, even India, but this is because all 3 of these countries are western as hell.

Then again.
>being a pleb with a culture
Go into STEM and get a corporate job for the New World Order. Star Trek will be a reality in a century or two.

>>5612147
>Duchesne denounces the devaluation of Western culture by a revisionist multicultural ideology which has been sweeping the academic world since the 1960s,[5] arguing for the continued validity of the traditional view of Europe as the one culture that produced the modern world, but adding that Europe has always been the most creative civilization since the Greek discovery of reason, prose writing, tragedy, comedy, dialectical reasoning, theoretical science, citizenship and democratic politics.
>aristocratic culture was the primordial source sustaining the unparalleled cultural creativity and territorial expansionism of Western civilization. The Iliad, Beowulf, The Song of Roland, including such Irish, Icelandic and Germanic Sagas as Lebor na hUidre, Njals Saga, Gisla Saga Sursonnar, and The Nibelungenlied recount the heroic deeds and fame of aristocrats.

So I can learn about European history without being shamed or constantly reminded that it's empty because of "cultural relativism" and "social constructs" and "power structures" ?

>>5612147
>Dr. Ricardo Duchesne
>Professor in New Brunswick

Canadian bro

>>5613041
Yeah it's getting so I can't read a fucking history book without somebody slapping it out of my hands and screaming "CULTURAL RELATIVISM" in my face.

>>5613052
So become a Marxist and shit kick them fifteen ways to Sunday using ep's poverty of theory and marwick against metaphysical history.

>>5613113
>become a Marxist

>>5613115
Welcome to historiography. The economic relations between people that underlie social reproduction underlie and condition all other social relations.

>>5613152
>underlie and condition all other social relations.
>all other

No. Fuck off.

>>5613160
You're going to have some problems with that attitude.

This thread is valid proof that the Indo-European culture is in fact inferior to almost every other available culture.

>>5613173
>This thread is valid proof

Irrelevant. "Valid proof" is a subjective European social construct, and thus falls out of our objective, progressive, diverse and egalitarian dynamics.

>>5613185
Check your human privileges, bipedal shithead; language is a social construct and a tool of oppression. Henceforth I shall speak no more but scream inhumane borborygms.

>>5613185
I hate smug posts like this, posting your shitty taste in women and utilising college level philosophy discussion.
Kill yourself and fuck off back to /pol/

>>5612878
good is subjective and as for richness, any leading country creates rich culture as a byproduct

>>5613200
>language is a social construct
unless chomsky is right...

>>5613200
>>5613200
>scream inhumane borborygms.

this would be impressive

>>5613113
>archaical economic views absolutely irrelevant in a consumerist society which applied to nothing but late 1800s West Europe

Might as well get a Nirvana (TM) hoodie and stop showering, that would be as contemporary and serious.

>>5613218

you aren't as funny as you think, not even close

>>5613226
If you found something funny in my comment on Marx, please point it out, --- it was not intended.

>>5613226
Believe me, he is. I have spent many an eve laughing at this simpleton.

>>5613113
Isn't Marxist historiography a form of 'metaphysical history'?

'Metaphysical' isn't even a very good label because Marwick's 'historical approach' has as much of a metaphysical and epistemological basis as any other methodology.

>>5612147
>"uniqueness" of the West
>current Western society has nothing to do with ancient Western civilization
>there were guys without what the type of people writing this sort of drivel qualify as civilization
>modernism is one of the worst things that happened to mankind anyway, fuk whoever wants to take credit for it
>totally no other culture valued individual warrior's prowessses, this is completely unique to the West, because the others are soulless communist ants
kek

He's not right about any of those questions. Western civilization is just that- a civilization that is also not an actual homogenous mass. Among billions of civilizations that existed. If any was inherently superior it'd be adopted by all without much hassle, something that didn't happen even at the height of imperialism.

>>5613227
Oh look. He's playing the oblivious card.
Cute.

>>5613218
Historical materialism has nothing to do with Marxist economic critique, its a very pervasive method of evaluating historical events.

You would know that if you'd ever studied history.

>>5612731
>Yes it's superior to even Buddhism/Daoism)...
Yesindeed a religion that has a big book of dogma that is mostly composed of fairytales is superior to one that is non-dogmatic, 3 times bigger and is devoted to explanations and elaborations about practice and philosophy.

>>5613027
>Japan
>western as hell
>India
>good for being working class

You have absolutely no knowledge about either of these countries.

>>5613250
>a big book of dogma that is mostly composed of fairytales

>>5613231
>If any was inherently superior it'd be adopted by all without much hassle

Right, because the Natives in North and South America could've easily adopted Western European civilization, no hassle...it's just that they didn't "want to" make ships and find us.

Same goes for the Africans, they could easily had their own Industrial Revolution and Enlightenment....no hassle.

>>5613257
>tips fedora
>#cosmos

thank you based anon

>>5613260
Cute, but that's not what I said.

>>5613250
>buddhism is non-dogmatic

plenty of dogma and fairy tales in buddhism, has tons of schools with tons of contradictions and superstitions too.

> 3 times bigger and is devoted to explanations and elaborations about practice and philosophy

and yet it's ontology, metaphysics, and ethics are mostly wrong. Go figure

>>5613264

you just implied it.

Guys, don't want to make a new thread. Is Journey to the end of the night good, worth reading?

>>5612731
You didn't answer why you pleb, you just restated your baseless opinion.

>listening to this much Zizek

>Is he right about the Greek invention of liberal democratic society?
No, it was not liberal; it was more restrictive in response to the unrest caused by wealth disparity and display which still infected Athenian society after Solon. The Roman sumptuary laws and revision of the infamy laws to better line the state coffers when wealth and display of it was the cause of social unrest regarding their marriage laws likewise reflects the wealth inequality between sexes in the upper classes after war.
>Is he right about Europe being the most creative civilization?
It's a wide set of goalposts to map. The reasons he gives however are patently untrue: while Athenians wrote more plays because it was a way to display wealth postSolon, the Spartans wrote less because with greater general literacy, the effort of reading and writing Greek was more immediately understood. The aristocratic society of Athens encouraged the specialisation of a few educated people on the patronage of a few wealthy people, but the Spartan system ensured their entire citizenry could actually read them (something which would be beyond the niche groups responsible for the creative scene in Athens). Further, the recording of the Northern sagas is during the decline of the aristocracies involved, which were not notably comparable to the Athenian form so much as the Spartan. Literacy was kept alive in those regions by the isolation from the central European Church and decline of the Roman Empire, rather than by its hierarchy also.
>Is he right about the inherent superiority of Indo-European culture?
No, inherent superiority is much different to historical superiority, which is based off a number of unforeseen factors. Someone leaving the gate open to Constantinople was probably unforeseen by either side, but it worked to end the siege.

People act like democracy was a good thing; it was terrible in both theory and practice and contributed to Athens getting steamrolled by Macedon.

>>5613276
Are you going to start arguing your case, or just keep stating your inflammatory opinions in the most cuntish way possible?

>>5613281
I think it's worth reading.
Have you read Vonnegut or Burroughs before? They were both significantly influenced by Cèline. So was Bukowski, but he's vile.

>>5613283
>You didn't answer why you pleb

Why what?

>>5612731
I'd love to know the methodology for making just such a chart, because no possible method seems sound. Just thinking that someone (like OP) could look at this chart and not be struck by its idiocy makes me mourn for humanity.

I mean, what, was there a team of people, together capable of reading all languages, surveying all documents, and checking all names? Language acts as a major information boundary here.

>>5613276
>plenty of dogma and fairy tales in buddhism, has tons of schools with tons of contradictions and superstitions too.
Most superstitions actually come from the cultures surrounding it, though I can't know what you see as superstition in the first place. Things like "supernatural powers" are not even part of the teaching as in nothing would change if they weren't mentioned, and they appear extremely rarely anyway. Only such issues like rebirth are actual parts that matter, and those are rigidly structured theories (and not disproven by science). Buddhism wouldn't be a religion without an element requiring trust.
There are dogmas only insofar that you need something to have a teaching in the first place, these are things like the 4 Noble Truths. Without having those you have no teaching in the first place, this goes for even the most liberal philosophy ever written, whatever that is. The rules and laws imposed on monks aren't dogma, I'm certain that you can appreciate the difference.
There are indeed tons of schools, except none of them claims to be "true" and they appeal to people of different natures. This isn't something negative, it's positive. The contradictions are also about minor details and not major teachings, there rather are divergences that expand upon untouched areas.

>and yet it's ontology, metaphysics, and ethics are mostly wrong. Go figure

>it's wrong because I decided so
OK, then let me decide that Christianity is wrong.

>>5613291
Why Christianity is the best of the best religions.

>>5613311
>Why Christianity is the best of the best religions.

In terms of facilitating "freedom" and "prosperity" it is the best and because it's the closest to the truth.
Here is why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9lPLzvkCjE&

>>5613318
>Eastern religions say experience is an illusion
>Only Christianity asserts the importance and reality of human experience

I'm out. You're a fucking retard.

>>5613318
Doesn't claiming that something is closest to truth implies that you know what the truth is in the first place?

>>5613334
>>Eastern religions say experience is an illusion

Nice misquote buddy. He said our internal human experience is an illusion, meaning the idea of a "self" or what regular people normally identify as is an illusion. Anyone familiar with Eastern philosophy would be able to pick that up instantly.

>>5613335
>>5613335

It implies you are realizing you are getting closer to the truth.

>>5612147
>Is he right about the Greek invention of liberal democratic society?
>Is he right about Europe being the most creative civilization?
>Is he right about the inherent superiority of Indo-European culture?

Don't even have to read the book to tell you he's not. He's a moron.

>>5613256
>japan
>a capitalist nation state
>not western
lel

>>5612147
>In cultivating a virtually unparalleled democratic culture, with the Greek and Roman assemblies, parliaments and municipal communes, universities, reading societies, intellectual salons and newspapers, the West made possible the rise of modernity.
>This aristocratic culture was the primordial source sustaining the unparalleled cultural creativity and territorial expansionism of Western civilization.


Our history is so interesting and amazing!

>>5612147
>In the last few decades, the writing of world history has been driven by academics determined to portray the achievements of civilizations in terms that support the egalitarian idea that all cultures are similar, producing a shoddy historiography and social science that have devalued the intrinsic quality of Western civilization and seriously underestimated its accomplishments between ancient times and the present day.

This is so true!


>The Iliad, Beowulf, The Song of Roland, including such Irish, Icelandic and Germanic Sagas as Lebor na hUidre, Njals Saga, Gisla Saga Sursonnar, and The Nibelungenlied recount the heroic deeds and fame of aristocrats. These are the earliest voices from the dawn of Western civilization.

I need to read these.

>>5613347
As far as Buddhism goes a self, among other things, is ultimately meaningless because it's a conditioned thing. The human experience dependent on a self is nevertheless not devaluated, since it's the only experience you can have as a non-enlightened being. Rejecting the idea of a self and pretending that it doesn't bind you is nonsensical and contrary to the teachings.

For me what Klavan says about "internal experience" (one has to ask what external experience is) being the image of God is as meaningless as just intellectually grasping the idea that the self is fundamentally an illusion. Everything they say after the "the guy scrubbing the floor is as precious as the scientist" (which is true) is absolutely not unique to Christianity. I also laughed at the parts about America, where apparently being a garbageman is a very comfortable and free life.

>>5612935
I saved it and then I saw your post.

>>5613372
>Don't even have to read the book to tell you he's not. He's a moron.
>Don't even have to face facts, my sjw emotions will glide me through life in a cozy little shelter of ignorance

>>5613415

>tfw no gf to explore your European heritage with

>>5613419
>self, among other things, is ultimately meaningless because it's a conditioned thing.

ya that's why Buddhism is inferior, makes mistakes like this all the time.

>>5613731

Inferior to Christianity? Christianity is the narrative of how an allegedly all powerful God chooses to sacrifice his own son to repay a debt to himself. He could have theoretically absolved the sins of humanity but he chose to brutally sacrifice his son/himself.

>>5613731
>mistake
4u, bruh.

yes, the greeks created the first democratic societies, whether or not they were liberal is a great debate, some were violent authoritarians (sparta) while some were a little bit liberal (athens, which only gave the right to trade freely to foreigners if they were rich, which isn't liberal enough according to today's standards to be really liberal).
yes europe is one of most creative civilization with the USA (which could be considered an extension of european civilization), the artistic and literary movements as well as the fashion and everyday clothes changed way faster than in other civilizations (antiquity>middle ages>renaissance>baroc>classical/light>XIX century/early XX>recent, look at these in european/north america and you'll see major changes in fashion and artistic/literary movements while other civilization didn't have much change (even though they had their golden age), you could take that as a proof of european creativity).
no, there's no culture inherently superior to another, the rise of european civilization was most likely caused by the incredible number of resources and the presence of civilizations that acted as the motor of progress (greece, rome, italy, france/UK/germany, USA)

>>5613731
1/10

>>5613876
When the fuck was Sparta democratic? There seems to be untold amounts of wrong in your post which I dropped right there.

>>5612147
So the uniqueness of Europeans is that they sung praise to individual heroes?

What about Gilgamesh then?

This sounds like a good place to ask since I don't want to make a whole new thread about it.

Can anyone post the latest version of that new reactionary literature chart?

>>5612300
>this is b8

>>5612303
>African
Shit
>Islamic
Durkadurka Allahu Snackbar
>Indo-Asian
Ching ching gook wong

>>5612367
>only that we could have done the things we've done.
this is what you're not supposed to say in academic history. historical method turned upside down from beliefs like that.

>>5612874
>european states forced to innovate
more like a couple european guys who got the knowledge from non-european sources and then made momentous achievements with them. europe was 85-90% rural until the last 150 or so years.

>>5613947
quality shitposting

>>5612303
>>Racists who know nothing about African, Islamic, or Indo-Asian culture and society.
Enlighten us, o progressive one.

>>5612419
>ninety-five percent of all explorers in history were European
Heh. That's some impressive research skillz, that is.

Western society is good, but not as good as it thinks it is.

China had higher living standards than everywhere in the rest until about the Industrial Revolution. The European West as the most powerful part of the globe is a historical anomaly; if (and this is debatable) China keeps growing faster than we do then really all that's happening is the age of the anomaly is ending.

to time travelers from the past future technology looks like magic

reverse effect:
clever but also ruthless people look like unfathomable ancient aryan geniuses to plebs.

>>5614267
>>to time travelers from the past future technology looks like magic
>Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

i really dislike that clarke's phrase... there is a huge difference, magic gives personal innate power while with technology you can only borrow the power from your society which you rely on. technicians serve

>>5612891
Saying something is unique or singular is a comparison.

>>5614289
don't you have to learn magic from someone though. I guess it depends on how the fictional magic is depicted

>>5613886
i stated that the greeks created the first democratic societies, not that the cities i talked about after saying that were democratic.

>>5612353
I think that his point is that the western civilization had ALL of those

>>5613027
>you might want to be a working class man in India
>Japan and South Korea western as hell
woah

>>5613394
>nation states are western
but Japan has been a nation state since its unification, anon

>>5612826
I don't think anyone forced German classical or USA popular music onto the rest of the world (to many different countries to force wilfully), they just preferred it. Democracy seems similar in this way although I'm not saying it is as respectable as classical or jazz music.

>>5614333
Okay then, what's the second society to make it plural? Attica didn't think it too democratic. Further, Athens which was a democracy was not liberal are you then go on to say. It's where the idea of Draconian law comes from, Solon was pretty anti liberalism because the oracle saying that liberalism would kill them all was his main point, and by the time actual democracy is applied to Athens, it's one of the least liberal things you could imagine. For fucks sake, they kept the shitty treaty with Macedon because
>Timarchus a ho
was a valid argument to majority of jurors. Jury duty and voting were mandatory and restrictive enough that we still use red ropes to corral people today like Athens did to fine its late voters, but sadly without the blood stains. None of what you said in that sentence relating to democracy or Athens makes any sense even if you divorce their relation so much as to make them separate sentences and paragraphs.

>>5612313

>want to learn about africans and african culture
>everytime anons remind me is a worthless pit of barbarism
god damn pol.
I just wanted to learn about africa and blacks.
fuck you

>>5612599
>their definition of 'democracy' was nothing like ours.
Barring the suffrage of certain groups, it was purer than our own democracy.
>Europe isn't creative.
I don't even understand this

>>5612710
Have you ever been to Paris? African and Asian tourists and immigrants everywhere. The Mona Lisa is so mobbed by Chinese people I couldn't see it.

>>5614919
oh no. how sad for you. all those immigrants ruining your white experience. woe to you

>>5614913
>Barring the suffrage of certain groups, it was purer than our own democracy.
Suffrage is the defining feature of democracy, you doofus.
>I don't even understand this
'Creativity' is making shit up at the expense of utility and reason. Europeans, in general, aren't "creative". (Also it's not always a positive quality.)

>the intrinsic quality of Western civilization
>He identifies the roots of the West’s restless creativity in the unique aristocratic culture of Indo-Europeans,[11] with its ethos of heroic individualism and competitive spirit.
>the primordial source sustaining the unparalleled cultural creativity

What a silly pleb.

"The question of the relation of pre-Modern Occidental culture to Modernity is a specially intriguing case of a much wider problem: the relative role in historical development of traditional culture and of the current play of interests. When it becomes clear that long-range historical change cannot be adequately interpreted in terms of the initiative of great men or of direct geographical or racial causation; and when interpretation through the evident moral level of the leading classes or even through immediate economic interests proves to require explanation in turn of why the moral level or the economic interests were as they were; then recourse can be had to explanation by unevident but seminal culture traits. These seminal traits are supposed to have latent implications, not visible in the earlier course of the society, the consequences of which unfold at a later stage of the society's development—if it may be assumed that the society has a determinate course of development. Of the several sorts of seminal traits invoked, the most commonly appealed to are inherited attitudes of mind, evaluations of what is good and what bad. Thus in contrast to an Occidental inclination to rationalize and to reinvest is posited an eternal Chinese inclination to tao-ize and to become gentry; whereupon the failure of the Chinese to carry through an industrial revolution is ascribed to their successful families' not persisting in industry, but turning to other, more honoured, careers. (If the Chinese had been the first to fully industrialize, they might have accounted for this also by their wealthy families' tendency to become gentry—and so to sell their industries to ever new blood, willing to innovate.)

[1/2]

>>5614987

....

I am sure that seminal traits may exist, though it is hard to pin them down. But any evaluation of their historical effects must take into account the full ecological setting of a given generation—that is, all the conditions… that would determine the effective advantage of various possible lines of action and hence of attitudes that might be adopted…. Such calculations would have to take into account natural, man-made, and demographic resources, technical and scientific alternatives available, and social institutions as given to that generation, including patterns of expectation, and what at that time these expectations depended on... Such a listing would have to include the consequences of ancestors' attitudes; but under the circumstances facing any given generation, the consequences of those attitudes need not come to the same thing as the attitudes themselves….
Attitudes like 'individualism', 'sense of personal vocation', or 'world-negation' are hard to define closely enough for such purposes. It is easier to trace the particular tokens of such attitudes; and these can come to take on quite opposite implications in a new setting….
Most temperaments and most possible facets of experience that are to be found in any major tradition can be found in corresponding traditions elsewhere. Accordingly, tradition can account for almost anything. Thus for a time it was sought to prove that basic familistic attitudes would prevent the Chinese from turning Communist; now the Chinese bureaucratic heritage is shown to have made the Chinese peculiarly susceptible to Communism.
Accordingly, it is wise to posit as a basic principle, and any deviation from which must bear the burden of proof, that every generation makes its own decisions…. A generation is not bound by the attitudes of its ancestors, as such, though it must reckon with their consequences and may indeed find itself severely limited by those consequences in the range of choices among which it can decide. The difference between major traditions lies not so much in the particular elements present within them, but in the relative weighting of them and the structuring of their interplay within the total context. If this structuring remains relatively constant (in the very nature of tradition, it cannot remain absolutely so), it will be because the predisposing conditions remain relatively constant, and because they are further reinforced by the institutionalizing of attitudes appropriate to them."

[2/2]

>>5612773
>>5612773

>>5612905
>pride
are you b8? I think west is best, but I don't have pride in it. It's not even mine.

>>5614987
>eternal Chinese inclination to tao-ize
What in everloving fuck is this supposed to mean??

Damn, they really do let _anyone_ write a book these days.

>>5613152
>economic relations between people that underlie social reproduction underlie and condition all other social relations

this only works within a framework of absurd reductionism

>>5613285
>People act like democracy was a good thing
Don't we get the best works of Greek theatre and philosophy from the time they were a Democracy?

>>5614647
10/10 lit

>>5614927
I'm not really complaining about them, though I could see how it sounds like that. I just think it demonstrates that there's something in the west, at least enough to drive people to come and see it.

>>5614940
But Greeks DID have a direct democracy. It was more Democratic than US democracy when it started.

>>5615106
The USA was never, and is not, a democracy. They used to teach this shit in middle school.

>>5615131
I know it's a republic, but isn't it also representative democracy?

cultural marxists btfo

western society is the gold standard for any society whatever

Rome was the acme of civilization

>>5615145
No. The USA is not a democracy.

>>5614927

lelelel get btfo shitskin

your people have no art, no culture, no vision. just stupid automatons that work until the day they die

>>5615044
Yeah, it's one of the reasons why Socrates wanted to an hero.

They liked fancy words and shit, and this led to them self destructing because rhetoric was making them dumb. It's a prolific time as well, with much more written than has survived or been recorded, because the wealthy are using theatre to demonstrate and embed their power. The whole thing probably looked and sounded like how /pol/ thinks the US is run by Hollywood and Jews. Laws were often passed or revoked based on the speaker's wit more than smarts, so the propaganda machine also goes into full swing about that point, fuelling more works, as ever increasingly poor political and military decisions lessened their actual power as a city state.

Aristophanes' The Clouds mocks Socrates for instance, and could be seen as how the general public viewed philosophy with derision but in amongst it is also dislike for those who don't control their kids, who overspend on nonpublic transactions, and who might buy into Socrates facing this lack of control over the material. (The Socrates bashing was probably good natured banter as they appear to have been friends but it does contribute to the death of Socrates in that public favour was obviously not garnered by the play.)

It could be argued that rhetorical skill improved out of necessity in this time because of the ubiquity of politics (as Pericles, who ruled for the greatest part of Athenian democracy pointed out, a man who doesn't practise politics isn't said to mind his own business but to have no business at all) and the highly litigious nature of Athens at the time.

Plays had a wider audience than the courts, but for a citizen, the range of exposure to /pol/ made them unable to make good choices necessarily in art or politics, as evidenced by The Clouds, which is now considered one of the greatest pieces of literature, losing out to a comedy which was less funny, but more critical of Socrates, who is now considered to not be stupid.

Keep in mind these people had such strict cultural mores that a great body of their literature is dedicated to what kind of fish you eat says about your economic and social worth, so assuming they liked the same best works isn't going to pan out.

>>5615044
Were they a democracy when Aeschylus and Sophocles were writing? Don't feel like checking.

>>5613005
>/mu/

Welp, that explains everything.

>>5615195
>(The Socrates bashing was probably good natured banter as they appear to have been friends but it does contribute to the death of Socrates in that public favour was obviously not garnered by the play.)

Could you go into more detail about this?

>>5614391
>>5614391
>you might want to be a working class man in India
I know that you're probably a time traveler from 50 fucking years ago, but there are some highly urbanized areas of India that can't be considered as some urbanized areas in murrca. Hence, why I accounted for the fact that someone might include India in the category of "places I wouldn't mind being a working class man in," and included it in my examples, since Indian culture and business are westernized to the point where they have a mock Hollywood.

Japan and South Korea are arguably two of the most "burgerfied" countries on the planet. If you really don't understand recent history well enough to know how they became burgerfied, first examine what Japanese culture is, then examine what their media shows.
Better yet, examine what their media and fads are similar to. This shit isn't the product of some country-wide appreciation of boy pussy.

>>5615158
>Rome was the acne of civilization
Sounds pretty accurate.

>>5614391
>you might want to be a working class man in India
I know that you're probably a time traveler from 50 fucking years ago, but there are some highly urbanized areas of India that can't be considered as bad as some urbanized areas in murrca. Hence, why I accounted for the fact that someone might include India in the category of "places I wouldn't mind being a working class man in," and included it in my examples, since Indian culture and business are westernized to the point where they have a mock Hollywood.

Japan and South Korea are arguably two of the most "burgerfied" countries on the planet. If you really don't understand recent history well enough to know how they became burgerfied, first examine what Japanese culture is, then examine what their media shows.
Then, examine what their media and fads are similar to. This shit isn't the product of some country-wide appreciation of boy pussy.

>>5615176
Ok. I had a common core packet that I thought said otherwise, but I was probably just reading what I wanted to read.

>>5615203
Aeschylus is around when Cleisthenes moves focus to the demes and expels the old order, so he is at a time when they're moving more into democracy, which is why the Persians are much less like a model Athenian democratic citizen (personal wealth, being emo, etc etc) The democratic periods are hard to trace, but being after Solon you could say maybe. Being before Pericles I don't want to say yes, because democracy under Pericles is really the main period. Many of the powers and duties of citizens which denote Athenian democracy were still absent, if forming, when he was starting writing though.
>>5615205
Connus by Ameipsias scored higher than The Clouds in 423BC. If your question meant more about the relationship- Plato's Symposium doesn't show a fight between Socrates and Aristophanes and both seem unruffled by one of them having written a comedy about the other. Plato's Apology lays some of the blame for Socrates' death on The Clouds, but considering that Socrates doesn't in dialogue, it's likely Plato's axe to grind.

>>5615228
Why would I want to work in a country where the water will kill me if I drink it? As a foreigner of course.

>>5615252
if you drink it off the ground sure

>>5615259
Travelers are told to only drink bottled water. Tap water is off limits as well.

>>5615293
That would also be sound advice to anyone going to China, so...

>>5615032
>this only works within a framework of absurd reductionism
Or absolute and total comprehension. Or humble and provisional analysis.

>>5613218
>spectacle
You do realise that this is a Frankfurt style reaction to "pessimism" amongst bourgeois intellectuals about the capacity of the class for self-activity? For the good version, see Socialisme ou Barbarie who at least knew that workers weren't shit.

Fucking anti-worker situs.

>>5613230
>Isn't Marxist historiography a form of 'metaphysical history'?
Not really. The terms are all historicised and politicised; contingent on their interpretive usefulness in relation to actual documentary sources. Marx and Engel's historical practices were contingent and limited, not totalising.

Marwick's metaphysics are constrained to the metaphysics of an epistemology of reading, not a metaphysics that deeply penetrates the readings conducted. It is the difference between wearing a condom and wearing a latex catsuit.

In any case, the metaphysical assumptions that texts exist, that they can be meaningfully read in a tradition of meaningful readings, and this process can produce humble and contextually limited claims about the past is a very different set of claims to totalising metaphysics.

I think it is fairly obvious that only a weak culture, that is in a profound crisis, needs to lionise itself in order to to be above "critique".

What really is beyond me, is how while having an emphasis on cultural ethnocentrism, you also have all qualities are reduced to to the same empty value. Thusly, you have the praise of unrelated and contradictory things with each other; "Liberal Democrassy" coupled with "Aristocratic Warrior culture" and "Technological Advances" with "Art".
This is a clear sign of a mind that cannot think in transhistoric mode of thought and has to historicise cultural objects (see:Antiquarian history) in order to make them significant, rather than talk about their context and the relation they have, to their particular time and zeitgeist.

Please consult the "Untimely Meditations" if you thought Duchesne's gross and empty generilizations were in any way profound.

>>5612886
amen.

>>5612147

holy shit I really need to read this book, finally someone speaking the truth without being censored. Yes Europeans did GOOD things, and had more advancement in science, philosophy, freedom, society than anyone else. And their art is insanely superior in quality and quantity...

>(inb4 muh relative subjectivity)!!!!!!!!!
ya that's a nice european philosophical construct...plz stop looking at the world through your biased European philosophy!!!! kek

You can't even criticize us without automatically presupposing our criteria and ideas!!

>>5612303
>Islamic
That's broad. Most Muslims were Indo-European. Aside from Southeast Asia, the Muslim world was mostly dominated by Indo-European. The author does assume that Indo-European=Western Civilization which is ridiculous.

>>5616676
>without being censored
You may have a different opinion, but please don't act as if you were ever "censored" (or any other historian). It's so lame
.

>>5612791
>rofl
Is this 2010 or what?

>>5616676
Hi Herodotus, did you know in Iran they have this magical glowing-old-bronze type of stone they use to destroy city states and turn their enemies into crabs? We should send some flying snakes to stop this.

>>5614410
and the nation state originated in medieval europe. it is an europan invention.

would you like to know more --> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Medieval-Origins-Princeton-Classic-Editions/dp/0691121850/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413939635&sr=8-1&keywords=the+medieval+origin+of+modern+state

Oh hey, it's this dumb thread.