/lit/ - Literature

She had the greatest hand in our redemption next to God.

>>5991745
She is the lawyer of mankind before God.
And we don't worship her.

She is our great sweet mother.

We don't worship her. We venerate her. She intercedes on our behalf.

>>5991778
This

I don't think there's much wrong with people saying that we worship Mary. She is a god in the sense in which Christ called all of us gods, which goes especially for saints, and among saints it goes especially for her. She isn't divine in that only God is divine, but perhaps no human being as participated in God's grace as much as her except Christ himself. The commandment is to have no other gods before God, which does not exclude those "gods" that are directly beneath God like the saints and the angels.

The bead rattlers want to hold on to their latent paganism so they use the mother of our Savior </s>

catholics reasoned that mary must have been born without sin so as to not impart original sin to babby jesus, and came to the conclusion that mary was conceived immaculately and so had no sin

What's the deal with /lit/ and all the non-literature worship?

Please form an orderly queue with your shitty objections about how there are books written about something so it is inherently literature.

>>5991914
m00t is too dumb to give us a philosophy board

>>5991745
Goddess worship.
It's tranference.
This is probably why Cathoics have a more holistic, less bombastic approach than Protestants or Muslims: because they honor the female, yin aspect of divinity. ( Judaism sees the Shekinah ("holy spirit") as female.)
The mother goddess is an essential and very basic part human religion.

Catholics are actually polytheists who think God is kind of a wish-granting genie.
They'll worship God, Jesus, the Saints, and even the spirits of their deceased, so long as any of them grants them favors.

>>5991856
What? No. She was conceived like any other human.

>>5993045
Immaculate Conception buddy

>>5991745
What's up with Protestants and ordaining women? In fact Protestants do TONS of things that are objectively worse than Marianism.

Fisheaters sums it up best.

http://www.fisheaters.com/mary.html

Folk Catholicism is a resistance against the horribleness of abrahamism. By worshiping Mary and the saints, they preserve goddess and ancestor worship for when the current monotheistic dark age ends.

Pic related, he too turned his back on polytheism and tried to make his personal god the only god.

>>5991745
only human born without original sin

kinda cool

>>5995680
well besides jesus, but hes also god so…

>>5995680
proof?

Immaculate Conception was not Biblical, and it even goes against the Bible.

>>5991778
Where did this idea come from? All I know is in the Protestant Bible it says in Paul's letter to the Romans: "Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

So where did the idea that Mary intercedes come into Catholicism? Or anyone else for that matter?

>>5995731
Good thing then that Sola Scriptura is a retarded Protestant doctrine that Catholics never have and never have claimed to follow.

>>5995742
Then what writings do Catholics follow?

>>5995717
actually im second guessing myself because i think maybe that also applies to john the baptist. fuck my catholic knowledge is rusty as hell

>>5995757
Yeah. I was always taught that Jesus is the only person without sin. I never learned that about Mary or John the Baptist. Specifically in Romans, that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

I think the veneration for Mary is odd because she is a person. Jesus is a person, but he's also spoken of in writings as the son of God.

>>5995736

the early catholic church was more populated in the eastern mediterranean than in the western portion. the religion at the time used terms such as "godhead" and "god-bearer" and all other sorts of terminology relating itself to the trinity (thus explains the eastern church's somewhat constant battle with different takes on the trinity and nature of jesus). mary was seen as the god-bearer and respected as the one who accepted god's choice. from mary came jesus' humanity, from god came jesus' divinity.

this becomes crystallized in the 4th century with the edict of milan which allows for open veneration of mary. eventually churches dedicated to her pop up and the rest is history baby.

IIRC it exploded due to some stories about miracles that went viral during the Middle Ages, and wasn't nearly as significant before that

people needed some excuse for this
>>5992354

We need a /god/ general thread for stupid shit like this.

Pagan mother goddess worship that has seeped its way into Catholicism to help pagans transition into Christianity smoothly. Catholics like to cite that officially Mary is venerated, not worshiped but they pray to Mary even though she is dead and won't be raised again until after the 2nd coming.

>>5996045
Protestantism: where any hick with a Bible and a tractor can declare himself a pastor and then declaim to the world about your theological errors.

Not. Even. Once.

>>5996074
Better than the bureaucracy of Catholicism. The clergy honor Jesus with their mouths but their hearts are far from Him.

>>5996086
Their hearts can't be any further from him than the leaders of all the Protestant sects that are constantly changing their doctrine to accommodate the demands of secular culture.

They don't even believe in God, they just want bourgeois respectability.

>>5996074

protestantism is certainly going through difficult times within the US, but churches with some form of hierarchy still require a high level of education, often theology bachelors.

>>5996107
I'd agree with you there. Many church leaders are not truly Christian, but all Christians are called to be a holy priesthood not a clergy selected by the previous clergy. Many protestant churches are getting into the same quagmire catholicism fell into where people saw the influence of genuine believers and learned to imitate them without knowing Christ and thus an insulated clergy was born. The beauty of Christianity is it's an egalitarian religion decrying the phariseeical keepers of religious dogma. True Christianity comes from questioning those in charge and challenging their authority, not entrenching it.

>>5991766
>>5991772
>>5991778
This is what all Catholics say, and it's just strange how much denial they are in. They have a pantheon of saints, each dedicated to a specific area of life, that one prays to for support during struggles of that type, and yet they completely deny that they worship more than one God, and if you call them out on this they will get unnaturally defensive about it.
There's nothing wrong with admitting you worship more than one God, no one cares, I guess artificial stigma arose whenever those filthy polytheists found themselves on a cross or talking to those nice Inquisitors, or maybe it's just nicer having only one guy in charge of everything.
I've been to quite a few Catholic masses, one where they brought this life-scale immaculately carved statue of Mary (One of two that were blessed by the pope and get toured around everywhere, thought to basically be Her incarnate). Everyone there went up to the statue and genuflected at it, told it their prayers, and sang songs of praise to it. Nary a mention of Jesus throughout the entire thing.
If that isn't worship I just don't know what is.
Also my protestant friends even say that their churches view the "veneration" of saints as straight up polytheism and heresy.
Obligatory acknowledgement of my fedora.

Well, The Mother Mary figure basically was added to the early Trinity concept in terms of worship and attention, which basically derailed the Catholic religion completely into a literal polytheism.

Think in the way that Isis worship worked it's way in middle and late Egypt. They are ultimately the same and exact figure, the mother of the Son God.

>>5996405
That's how it looks when you know nothing of theology or the thoughts and emotions praying to saints invokes.
It's a tradition that comes from the first Christians who prayed for each other, we just continues. Mary also has apparitions, in fact monthly messages to seers from Medjugorje.
Protestants think that Christianity didn't exist for 1500 years and that one man with really bad theology started it for realz.

>>5994565
Of Jesus.

>>5995752
The Holy Spirit, he hasn't stopped guiding the church after the Bible was written.

>>5995736
It's an old tradition of praying for each other. And who better to pray with the the mother of god?

>>5995736

It's old as fuck and really has nothing to do with Mary. It's a natural extension of something else that was decided at one of the early councils. That of the nature of the Trinity. And the nature of Christ. There were many interpretations of what the trinity is (those who dissented or had differing opinions to what was eventually decided were pretty much run out of the church or laughed at or called heretics).

Some believed that God was one but with three modes.

Some believed that Christ wasn't God, but merely a creation of God. That was shut down pretty quick.

Others believed in a greater separation between Christ's divinity and his humanity. Which would make Mary simply the "mother of Christ" or Christotokos rather than the Theotokos or mother of God.

What was eventually arrived at was that Christ was both human and divine in a way that was inseparable which would make Mary as his birth mother on earth, the Mother of God. Then it evolved from there.

>>5996405

That veneration of Mary and the Saints is polytheism and heresy is a complete protestant meme. They all say that. They are all taught to say that. Not even fucking Luther believed that shit. It's retarded. They should investigate and think for themselves.

>people can't separate the ideas of asking people to pray for you and praying to something

>>5996884
How she have time to pray though? With all those Mexicans hollering up at her?

>>5996893
Prayers need not be even said, yo.
And fucking spirits, man. She's part of the Body of Christ now, nigga.

>>5995717
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

>>5995736
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

>>5993045
>She was conceived like any other human

Actually no. Mary was born to elderly and previously barren parents by the names of St. Joachim and St. Anna, in answer to their prayers. In thanksgiving for the gift, her life was dedicated to God from the very beginning.

>>5996045
>even though she is dead and won't be raised again until after the 2nd coming

You seriously think "soul sleep" is biblical?

>Matthew 22:29 Jesus said to them in reply, “You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. 31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

She's a convenient replacement for Asherah.

>>5999099
0/10

>>5996755
>Medjugorje

Um... you know that one is total bullshit right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_response_to_the_Medjugorje_apparitions

>>5999309
Been there many times, the land truly resonates with the blessing of God. It's definitely real.
Also don't know about the correctness of the article since the church can't make a position while the apparitions are still going on. And they gave a green light on making a sanctuary there.

>>5999350

Medjugorje is just a scam to make the seers rich. Pay attention to real apparitions.

>>5999385
But the seers live modest lives and only one still has apparitions.