/lit/ - Literature

Australia has better literary hoaxes than it has literature

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Prison_writings

>>6052048

>Our greatest modernist poet was fictional.

have to admit I'm somewhat ignorant when it comes to Australian poetry.
Is the contemporary scene over there any better than it is here in the US? It's infested and in flames over here.

>>6052091

Australian contemporary poetry infested and in flames? Not entirely sure, I'm not that up on it.

I mean Les Murray's probably Nobel-able but he's got the whole Gibsonesque Catholic thing going for him and a slight contrarian streak (I mean he is lit editor at Quadrant).

Also everyone confuses him for a soccer commentator.

>>6052143
>and in flames

Probably is round Adelaide.

>>6052143

Clive James has let himself go.

>>6052157
>>6052164

Nationality
I have grown past hate and bitterness,
I see the world as one;
But though I can no longer hate,
My son is still my son.

All men at God’s round table sit,
And all men must be fed;
But this loaf in my hand,
This loaf is my son’s bread.

>>6052068
>They were good poems too

Personal copy of /lit/'s Australian lit recommended chart with what I've read marked in red. If someone can find the normal one and post that'll be wicked because I can't seem to get it off the Wiki.

I'm hoping to actually read all of this year as a bit of a silly personal challenge but I've been saying that for ages and I'd rather just have read all of Patrick White's novels or something.

I really like what I've read of Patrick White (Voss, Tree of Man and Happy Valley) and highly recommend Voss. For those playing at home - Voss draws from Leichardt's last expedition and goes a bit Heart of Darkness/"man seeking to be God" with a bit of a metaphysical love story element to it. It's fun.

>>6052362

I still love how Mary Gilmore and all those socialists just said "fuck this" and started a commune in Paraguay.

>>6052372

It's amazing what you can achieve by taking the piss.

Australia is literally post-modernism.

Australian here.

I can never bring myself to read Australian books because it always seems like its about the outback and pastoral Australia.

I'm from the city, and the outback may as well be in another country its so far detached.

Do you guys have recommendations for good Australian literature that does not concern itself with the outback, country or farming?

>>6052444
How's Cloudstreet? I've got a copy of it but havn't read it. It was my high school english teachers favourite book so I'm hoping its good.

>>6052470
Here's a short story:

http://www.scum-mag.com/giving-tao-lin-good-quality-marijuana-in-melbourne-australia-after-reading-a-tweet-tao-lin-wrote-in-brisbane-australia-about-his-desire-for-marijuana/

>>6052470
On The Beach is a classic of postapocalyptic lit (does feature a bit of countryside, though)

>>6052486
Is he just copying Tao Lin's autistic style?

>>6052508
That's "the" style these days tbh.

>>6052470

Campaigning with Grant by Peter Minack

It's a post-modern Australian novel about the American Civil War as far away from all that as you can get. It's also out-of-print so not very helpful.

Have a look at the recommended list as most of it is actually pretty urban. Power Without Glory is set mostly in Collingwood for Christ's sake (although it's way too long and But The Dead Were Many is a better Frank Hardy novel).

>>6052472

I hated it and I wasn't one of those people that studied it at high-school. It is a bit of a perennial favourite among that whole English teacher set (the 30-something women mostly) but Tim Winton's whole style just doesn't work for me. The Fish chapters especially were just cringe-worthy. And the whole Family epic thing just screams "give me a fucking Miles Franklin".

I wish I could write something better on it but I honestly couldn't give a fuck. I am probably an idiot though. Give it a go, son. Your teacher might be right.

>>6052508

On The Beach is mostly in Melbourne itself. And seeing as I lived in a suburb right next to Harkaway etc. I maintain it is isn't country.

Definitely one of those "the premise carries the whole novel" deals but it worked for me.

>>6052444
People forget that for a few years Queensland elected the communist party for state government.

>>6052470
Peter Temple, who's south African, wrote some good crime novels set in Melbourne, Truth and Broken shore being the ones I read. There's also Cairo-Womersly, which is set in St Kilda, that's meant to be good, and The Book of Emmett-Forster my ex thought was pretty decent.

What do you cunts think of Guy Boothby?

>>6052470

And I do think you raise an interesting notion which ties into the whole Australian penchant for Cultural cringe. The Bush romanticism of Banjo Paterson has a lot to answer for.

Actually I think I should recommend The Plains by Gerald Murnane. It's a fucking odd novel, it is set in the bush but it has a very tongue-in-cheek exploration of the use of regional Australia as a setting.


>>6052578

Australian history is fun like that.

I can forgive Queenslander's forgetting. They already forget how to not create a corrupt police state.

It's funny I've heard the argument that Watson's federal Labor government was the first socialist one in the world but I'm not entirely sure if that works.


>>6052614

I've only read two of his Ghost stories in Wordsworth's el-cheapo "Australian Ghost Stories". (A Strange Goldfield and The Death Child). I think I really liked the former but I had just visited Ballarat so was in the mood for it. Kind of want to read the Dr Nikola stuff.

>>6052558
I've heard things about Cloud Street from everyone. I'm now even less inclined to read it. It's like 500 pages, I cannot be bothered if this is the response it gets.

>>6052630
>The Plains by Gerald Murnane. It's a fucking odd novel
Not the guy you're responding to but this sounds cool. My local library has a copy so I think I'll pick it up, give it a go.

>>6052630
Watson took power from Deakin in the early 1900's and enacted bills that were related to the taxation and spending of Governments and also a bill which from my understanding, gave more power to the courts and Goverment and took it away from the unions and private bodies. This is all year 12 Auspol from a few years back so take it with some of that sodium stuff. Watson also only held office for half a year, the house of reps having a coalition majority.

Australian lit, mate.

I bought The Fortunes of Richard Mahony from an Oxfam shop because it was £2 and looked really big. Have any of you lot read it?

>>6052775
>Albert farts

>>6052775
lol what book is this

>>6052816

The Lives of Saints by Edward Berridge.

>>6052465

I maintain the best Republican model for Australia would be one involving a fictional Queen based on Elizabeth II when she was hot.

>She will never fix your Falcodore with her WWII mechanic skills.

>>6052707

I felt obligated to read it because I had heard things about it from everyone. Just be prepared to give up rather than waste your time/put you off reading something else. Maybe give one of his shorter novels a go?

>>6052745

Make sure you read some reviews in your stride. I should add the words "I think" to what I was saying.

You'll have at least one moment of "What the hell am I reading?". I had fun but I need to definitely need to re-read it.

>>6052766

I was thinking in an international context. Timelines etc. But yes, interesting stuff!

>>6052787

Yes, and whilst it can be a slog (it is a trilogy of three volumes in one and the first takes a bit to get going) - it's a great character study and exploration of everything from colonial identity to mental illness. The last volume elevates it and the final chapters are just devestating.

Also you might really enjoy the middle volume where Mahony moves to England and has a shit time.

>>6052157

>>6052868
>You'll have at least one moment of "What the hell am I reading?".

I like those moments.

>>6052868
Thanks. I'll give Fortunes a go then. Surprised it isn't more well-known.

>>6053196

Good stuff, it's worth it. It's a long novel and it isn't Anglo-American, Russian or French so it gets kind of shafted. Nor is it getting any weird revival like Christina Stead did when Franzen name-dropped her.

Richardson's "The Getting of Wisdom" is probably more well known of her work especially since it had a decent film adaptation during the Australian New Wave and crops up more often on school lists. Nice little bildungsroman that would make a good comparative study with Mean Girls actually.

I enjoyed it but I think girls that went to private school love it more.

Also if you do enjoy Fortunes - try to track down one of her short story collections or go on Gutenberg AU for them. There's two (I think) shorts that are basically an odd epilogue that I wish they would just publish with the the rest of Fortunes as an appendix.

Honestly, Richard Mahony is one of my favourite novels and I actually bought a really nice edition from the 1930s just because.

>>6052877
That was the Maxwell dismissal wasn't it?

>>6053359
Yeah, it was, I just reverse imaged searched and that was the first result. I don't even watch Cricket and I find that impressive.

So has anyone read this?

Worthy of the Booker?

Australia is a fucked place, super bland culture, too many people are descendets of the original crims. Tightest people in the world, at least the ones from Sydney. Can't imagine one of them writing a book of any worth.

>>6053891
Australian here, sadly this is true, the culture here is bland. Like it's Australia Day today and it's just treated as an excuse to get wasted, no one actually celebrates Australia on this day.

There are some good Australia writers, just very few, but you have to remember that there is only 25 million of us.

>>6053796

Haven't had the chance but my experience with Booker novels is patchy at best (Giving McEwan an award for fucking Amsterdam whilst passing over all his actually decent work. Fuck off.)

Actually more interested in reading Gould's Book of Fish because:

>Convicts
>Tassie
>Kunstlerroman

>>6053891

>Sydney

Why didn't you say so from the start? Everything else you said was redundant.

Also most of us are not the descendents of criminals, convict heritage is an odd source of pride for the Australians that are and you should do more reading on what many of those convicts were a product of and the whole system of transportation.

>>6053911

Australia Day, based entirely on what it is the anniversary of, is by its very nature a flawed notion but it's a public holiday so we'll be stuck with this weird hybrid of a new foreign-kind of patriotism and just plain drunkenness for a while yet.

>>6053911
You sound like you are from inner city Melbourne.
I bet you would rather we got rid of Australia day and replace it with "Invasion day".

>>6053942
>>Sydney
>Why didn't you say so from the start? Everything else you said was redundant.

whats wrong with sydney?

>>6053952
Ignore him, people from Melbourne have an inferiority complex in regard to Sydney, something to do with no one wanting to visit their shitty little bay.

>>6053956
ayy lmao

>>6053948
no and no

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHZRuJq1AKU

If you've ever read the Secret Country, this documentary is the follow up to it from last year.

>>6053958
What would you actually consider celebrating Australia? We fire some guns, some speeches are made, people have parties and wave the flag around. What more do you want?

Don't know if it's supposed to be good, but if you are an anime, manga sort of fan, this is a pretty fun read.

>>6053911
I was just saying in /int/ it's hilarious how much Australia has changed since I was a child.

Back then wearing the flag around and shit you would have come off as a nationalistic dickhead and people would look at you weird since flag waving patriotism was very looked down upon.

Then the Howard Culture wars happened.

Now even ANZAC day has people running around going all "STRAYA!" "OZZI OZZI OZZI OI OI OI", people actually chanted that shit at the Gallipoli Dawn Service ffs.

It's pretty shit, but what can you do, Australians want to be American now.

>>6053979
>Now even ANZAC day has people running around going all "STRAYA!" "OZZI OZZI OZZI OI OI OI", people actually chanted that shit at the Gallipoli Dawn Service ffs.

Is this true? I havn't been at a dawn service in years but I remember it was really quiet and respectful. I really hope people aren't chanting at them, thats disgusting.

I love my country because of its give-no-shits attitude, but patriotism is the complete opposite of that.

>>6053979
>muh culture wars
You are like a walking, talking, parody of Melbourne hipsters.

>>6053980
>I love my country
>but patriotism is the complete opposite of that

>>6053979
You may like this book, what you're describing has been observed by others, as well

>>6053971
Can confirm. Fan of anime which has a more serious undertone, loved that series.

>>6053980
>I havn't been at a dawn service in years but I remember it was really quiet and respectful. I really hope people aren't chanting at them, thats disgusting.

There's video of it happening at the one actually over in Turkey.


>>6053980
>but patriotism is the complete opposite of that.

Actually that's wrong, Patriotism is loving your country for it's values and beliefs.

Nationalism is more the aggressive variant and espouses unity in race, culture etc etc.

What Howard brought forward was mass nationalism on the back of Pauline Hanson.

>>6053997
http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism/

>Nationalism means to give more importance to unity by way of a cultural background, including language and heritage. Patriotism pertains to the love for a nation, with more emphasis on values and beliefs.

>When talking about nationalism and patriotism, one cannot avoid the famous quotation by George Orwell, who said that nationalism is ‘the worst enemy of peace’. According to him, nationalism is a feeling that one’s country is superior to another in all respects, while patriotism is merely a feeling of admiration for a way of life. These concepts show that patriotism is passive by nature and nationalism can be a little aggressive.

>Patriotism is based on affection and nationalism is rooted in rivalry and resentment. One can say that nationalism is militant by nature and patriotism is based on peace.

>>6053891
>too many people are descendets of the original crims
>Can't imagine one of them writing a book of any worth.

>>6053796
>Flanagan was born in Longford, Tasmania, in 1961, the fifth of six children. He is descended from Irish convicts transported to Van Diemen's Land during the Irish Famine.
>For his 2014 novel The Narrow Road to the Deep North, Flanagan won the Man Booker Prize, the most prestigious English language literature award

>>6053948

I'm from the outer suburbs/rural fringe of Melbourne actually. Former mortgage belt.

I'd rather move Australia Day to the 27th for starters. It's not even just from an Aboriginal perspective (which is pretty fucking justified). Never liked the whole anniversary of a bunch of convicts arriving, many of whom were essentially economic and political prisoners, with the second-sons (or is it third) of the middle-classes that made up the military. It's just a shitty basis.

>>6053952

I'm just playing into the whole hatred of Sydney thing.
But really it's urban planning and shit-cunts.

>>6053959

Ought to watch it but I'm sceptical.
I don't want another First Australians and all that emotive bullshit.

>>6053970

>What would you actually consider celebrating Australia?

Evangelion marathon and then Hong Kong softcore erotica on SBS.
RAGE consisting entirely of TISM, Barnesy and the Lateline theme on ABC.

But this is getting outside of the context of /lit/.

>>6053986

"Yes, we get it. You're from a Rugby League state. You're all angry and you're not sure why and you read a Murdoch paper and you're contrarian and you vote for Menzies Legacy-betraying Liberals that definitely aren't silver-spoon/small-l liberals because you're stupid and don't know any better because you're from a Rugby League state."

I actually don't know if you are but I just kind of wrote that on a whim.

>>6054020
Nobody is forcing you to celebrate the holiday, you know. I don't celebrate it, but only because I don't like the mainland very much.

>Australia has literature. I think.

>>6054044

>>6052486
So as someone who for some reason ignored all the Tao Lin Taipei stuff here a few years back, what is the deal with him? Why is here referenced so much on /lit/?

>>6054020
So you are from Melbourne. I bet you go in to the city to meet up with your hipster friends to discuss oppression and discrimination.

What do you even mean by Rugby League state? You Victorians play it too. I am from Sydney, northern suburbs, if it matters to you.

>>6054032

I know, Tassie-bro. I know. It just bothers me is all.

>>6054044

>A wilful rich girl caught in the path of a raging bushfire!

Skippy should have let that bourgeois bitch burn.

The Light on the Hill should've been a funeral pyre and so on and so forth.

(Weren't those Skippy things more /co/ material? Like photo comics?)

>>6054060

Everybody gets too teary over Kazuo Ishiguro novels so they needed another Asian who writes in English to prattle on about incessantly.

>>6054060
You are not missing anything.

>>6054032
Were your parents cousins by any chance?

>>6054060
Tao Lin posts on /lit/. It's everyones duty to rag on him.

Just like everyone rips into Deadmau5 when he tries to talk himself up on /mu/.

>>6054083
No, my fathers side has only been in Tasmania for four generations.

>>6054076
Sydney is more hipster than melbourne, fucking Bondi is like both Fitzroy and St Kilda combined.

>>6054094
True that. At least they have not elected the Greens yet.

>>6054091
So only four generations of inbreeding? Could be worse I suppose.

>>6054115
Just because we aren't full of shitskins doesn't mean we're inbred, Achmed.

>>6054119
Don't worry mate, Labor and the Greens will ensure there are more than enough shitskins to go around.

>>6054124
We have a Liberal government.

>>6054128
Who don't have the majority in the Senate.
I am disappointed with how meekly Abbott has handled Muslims, but at the very least the Liberals stopped the illegal boat arrivals, something Labor has never managed to achieve (I wonder why?).
It won't last, the Liberals will probably be booted out next election, leaving us with Bill Shorten.

>>6054076
I'm Victorian and didn't know until recently that there were two Rugbys

>>6054135
I was talking about the Tasmanian government. Labor doesn't really look like making a recovery here, they're too closely associated with the death of so many industries. Then, of course, there are the Greens who favoured coal power over the Franklin Dam back in the 80s.

>>6054135
>Liberals stopped the illegal boat arrivals
>falling full-on for and repeating the propaganda of the bogan government

Under the universal declaration of human rights (which Australia signed!) seeking asylum by any means possible cannot be illegal. You even have an obligation to help them under the refugee convention, which you again signed.

>>6054147
Why would we want to destroy our country by allowing all these immigrants? We'd have to be mad, literally mad.

>>6054152
>country built on immigrants
>Indians do most of the work in the "skilled" sector
>without Indians, you wouldn't have engineers for your mines
>"we don't want more immigrants"

wat

you can't run an economy with prawns and ugg boots

>>6054158
>country built on immigrants
No it wasn't. It was built on settlers.
>Indians do most of the work in the "skilled" sector
I've never seen this. They seem to have some minor engineering jobs, but every man and his dog has an engineering degree.
>without Indians, you wouldn't have engineers for your mines
It's not hard to be an engineer, really. I don't even know that many Indian engineers and I work with engineers daily.
>you can't run an economy with prawns and ugg boots
You can't run an economy when bourgeois liberals like you want to increase the workforce so your capitalist families can stay wealthy, then you call the workers 'racist' for seeing through your ruse in an attempt to silence them with that 'dirty word'.

>>6054168
>bourgeois liberals like you want to increase the workforce so your capitalist families can stay wealthy,
>bourgeois liberals ... capitalist ... wealthy.
wut

The "bourgeois conservatives" want to increase their capital
The "dreadlocked liberals" are campaigning against the new policy to pay Cambodia to take the immigrants.

>>6054158
I have no problem with taking in skilled Indians or East Asians. They are usually hard working and sympathetic to democratic ideals.
The problem is the mudslimes and africans.

>>6054194
>mudslimes and africans.
reported. stay on /pol/ next time.

>>6054186
>The "bourgeois conservatives" want to increase their capital
They are called liberals, more specifically. They, and their puppets on the 'opposing' left wing, want more immigrants so the increase in the workforce will allow for more competition so the worker will have to sell his labour for less, lest he go unemployed.

>>6054196
Sorry for triggering you mate. How many innocents have to die, how many western ideals must crumble before you see Islam for what it is?

Let Sweden take them, we don't owe these people anything.

>>6053891

It's like 25% or less who can trace their ancestry back to early settlers and that's not even guaranteed convicts.

My personal theory about Australia, though, is that we are essentially a utilitarian nation. We have a number of Nobel prizes for medicine and science. We invented the refrigerator, wi-fi, an Australian sent plans for the first tank to the British government. We ditched the pound for a decimal currency, we ditched imperial system for metric system, we adopted polymer bank notes.

Australia is a country that is rarely nostalgic. We adopt new systems and we do it quite fast. We make most of our contributions in practical subjects. I honestly just think that for the vast majority of our history we saw art of all kinds as kind of a waste of time. That includes cooking even. Traditional Australian eating is basically protein and three vegetable. A practical, but uninteresting, meal if there ever was one.

>>6054220
>We have a number of Nobel prizes for medicine and science.

which is funny and may be a lesson for that "no more immigrants" guy, a third of the Australian Nobel prize laureates are immigrants, just look at Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Nobel_laureates

>Brian Schmidt
>born: Missoula, Montana, United States
>J. M. Coetzee
>born: South Africa
>John Harsanyi
>born: Budapest
>Patrick White
>born: London
>Bernard Katz
>born: Leipzig
>William Henry Bragg
>born: UK

the other 12 are born in Australia

>>6054220
>we are essentially a utilitarian nation
Yeah, probably.

>>6054229
White people don't count as immigrants, they are invited guests.

>>6054229

Dude, we are a nation of immigrants. Those immigrants right there are all white Europeans which I'm pretty sure that other guy would have no problem with.

I'm the son of Italian immigrants myself.

>>6054231
>dat handwaving

>>6054220
>invented the refrigerator

That's completely untrue you flaming galah.

>>6054236
What? Whites and Irish at least have cultural values that fit in with Australia.

>>6054229
I don't think anyone is against skilled immigrants, especially not European or Americans.

>>6054220
>wi-fi,

Little known fact - the actress Hedy Lamarr is credited by some people as having invented wifi.

If you're talking about John O'Sullivan, he invented some of the techniques which make wifi more reliable, he didn't by any means invent wifi.

The only thing australia ever invented is the pie floater, which isn't bad considering the people who live in aus.

>>6054239

First vapor compression refrigeration system. It's entirely true.

>>6054200
The liberals are the left wing.

>>6054245

babetown central

>>6054245

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_inventions

I wish Australia was colonised at least a century earlier, so we had more time to develop a unique culture. I envy the Americas in this regard

The Dutch shipwrecked off WA multiple times, imagine the kind of settlement that could have arisen out of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavia_(ship)

>>6054247
No, most liberals are right wing, though not all. It refers to wanting an unregulated economy.

>>6054252
>so many CSIRO inventions
>better cut that funding

>>6054257
A dead one, it was too hard to survive in northern WA.

>>6054245
Hnnng
>>6054257
>tfw no Australian Revolutionary war

>>6054266
>tfw Ned Kelly's plot to derail the police train was sabotaged, thwarting his plans to establish a Republic of North-Eastern Victoria with himself installed as president

>>6054257

It still wouldn't have mattered without a war of some kind. Australia's coat of arms should have "give no fucks" written under it. We literally federated so we could trade easier. The only time we staged an armed rebellion was when the government tried to stop people using rum as currency.

>>6054271
Australia's George Washington.

>>6054272
But there are these rare moments where we attempted something greater, something spectacular, resulting inevitably in failure. Ned's the perfect example. Burke and Wills. All our best stories are about failure

>>6054252

>wikipedia
>click on the wikipedia link for refrigeration and it tells you it was invented by scots and swedes
>kek

Don't trust every list you read on the internet, anon.

>The more you hear a country talk about their history, the more likely they're not doing a fucking thing anymore.
>Egypt, they created the pyramids. Fantastic. What have you done since then? Nothing? You still ride camels and you wipe your ass with your hand.
>The Greeks invented democracy. Anything after that? No. You go to their country now, what do they fucking do? They give you a tour of rubble that was where they created democracy.
>Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it.

I think of this Stanhope routine whenever someone tells me how Australia has no culture. It's exactly how I feel about it. Why would you be proud of culture? Wouldn't you rather a livable country?

>>6054290
>The first practical vapor compression refrigeration system was built by James Harrison, a British journalist who had emigrated to Australia. His 1856 patent was for a vapour compression system using ether, alcohol or ammonia. He built a mechanical ice-making machine in 1851 on the banks of the Barwon River at Rocky Point in Geelong, Victoria, and his first commercial ice-making machine followed in 1854. Harrison also introduced commercial vapour-compression refrigeration to breweries and meat packing houses, and by 1861, a dozen of his systems were in operation.

>>6054259
No, most liberals are left wing. It refers to liberty, freedom, and equality. You are adopting a twisted American view of liberalism, which puts economics at the center, and not the ideas shared by the rest of the world.

"Some American liberals, who call themselves 'classical liberals, fiscal conservatives, or libertarians', support fundamental liberal ideals but disagree with liberal thought, holding that economic freedom is more important than equality."

A liberal is not a libertarian.

>>6054295

>pom in aus actually gets round to doing something other than barbecue
>aussies claim the invention as australian
>just like everything else in Australia
>including australia

You people are absolutely desperate for anything that makes it look like at least one one of you has a brain eh?

>my arse, for example, which can hardly be accused of being the end of anything, if it suddenly started to shit at the present moment, which God forbid, I firmly believe the lumps would fall out in Australia.

Reading a Richard Flanagan now, Narrow Road on the backburner. Picked up two Patrick Whites at the book fair on the weekend. I've read very little Australian lit but I'm trying to change that.

>Thomas Wentworth "Tom" Wills (19 August 1835 – 2 May 1880) was a 19th-century sportsman who is credited with being Australia's first cricketer of significance and a pioneer of the sport of Australian rules football.

>he committed suicide by stabbing a pair of scissors through his heart.

>>6054300
>liberty, freedom
>left wing
top kek

>>6054307
Terry Tao, probably the smartest human alive is Australian.
Inb4 Asians don't count.

>>6054300
A libertarian is a socialist, it's a French word. A liberal is like Friedrich Hayek or Milton Friedman.

>>6054318
>smartest human alive

Never heard of him. Also, he's Australian-American so he's probably picked up some gumption from the seppos.

>>6054307

I don't see the problem. Americans claim immigrants all the time.

>>6054320
>A liberal is like Friedrich Hayek or Milton Friedman.

>has obviously never heard of Mill.

>>6054320
I bet you love Rand too, fucking communist.

>>6054328
So JS Mill, I presume that is who you mean, trumps two of the most prominent economists of the 20th century?

>>6054337
Hayek and Friedman were libertarians.they are not liberals. I have no idea if they had liberal views outside of economics, they may well have done.

>A libertarian is a socialist
lol. Sorry if you are joking. You can never tell on /lit/.

>>6052444
>A Cry in the Jungle Bar
has anyone read this? it sounds wonderful

>>6054347
They weren't libertarians, they were economic liberals. Libertarian is a word derived from the French 'Libertaire' which was a socialist movement led by Joseph Déjacque, a communist.
Outside of America liberal refers to an economic liberal, I realise that Americans like to call their anti-taxation, anti-regulation proponents 'libertarian', but that is not what the word means elsewhere.

>>6054347

They were liberals, you retard. It's the same fucking thing. It's called Classical Liberalism. Outside of the US, this is what a liberal is. Libertarian is a retarded American term for a classical liberal, which is what friedman and hayek were.

>>6054337

>the most influential philosopher of the 19th century trumps two pseudo-scientific hacks of the 20th.

ftfy

Keynes was a far more authentic and influential economist, and he was also full of shit.

I have a degree in economics, and I hate myself for it.

>>6054376
>Frege wasn't the most influential philosopher of the 19th century

>>6054380

>Frege

I'd have accepted Hegel as a viable competitor, but you're clearly very uninformed about philosophy and you're dropping a name from nowhere.

Try again.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=most+influential+philosopher+19th+century

>>6054361
>Outside of the US, this is what a liberal is
No, you dumb cunt, outside of the US a liberal is pro-government, not a neoliberal state abolitionist like Friedman.

>>6054387
>Hegel
That obfuscating moron? Frege started the greatest advancement in all of philosophy, you idiot.

>>6054390

Seems like the word "liberal" has been completely debased.

Yanks say "liberal" when they mean "commie". But Locke was one of the main philosophicla thrusts behind the US revolution and he's pretty much the guy who invented liberalism.

In europe, liberalism is pretty much laissez-fiare economics and social freedom, coupled with a limited role for govt.

Or it's the bunch of cunts who are in power at the minute, sucking hind tit to the tories.

>>6054391

>here begins the retarded 4chan argument between half-smart autodidactic kids.

>>6054413
Fuck off.

>>6054077
>Skippy should have let that bourgeois bitch burn.
Oh god lel

>>6054077
>Skippy should have let that bourgeois bitch burn.
i could get behind a maoist skippy the bush comrade series tbh

>>6053358
Cool, thanks.

>>6054291
When you don't have culture you don't value it, son. It's kind of like "love" in that way, you think you're a happy little accountant ranking up and increasing the little numbers in your bank acc. and don't get what all the fuss about love and culture and living is...

>>6054076
>northern suburbs
absolutely disgusting
how exactly does it feel to be the walking dead?

OH GOD WHAT HAPPENED.

I might start an Australian History/Politics reading list to balance out this digression, I think. So if anyone has any recommendations that'd be interesting.

It isn't Australia Day anymore but who gives a fuck.

>>6054076

Queensland and New South Wales. The two teams in "Origin". The other side of the "Barassi Line" - which I maintain has a political element these days because neither state's inhabitants need a nice cold can of calm the fuck down.

>>6054311

>Reading a Richard Flanagan now, Narrow Road on the backburner. Picked up two Patrick Whites at the book fair on the weekend. I've read very little Australian lit but I'm trying to change that.

That's what I try to do. It balances out my reading a bit. Which Patrick Whites did you pick up?

I want to read the rest of his books chronologically and get stuck into David Marr's biography after the fact. It's a long-term project since he can be hard-going and even he found his early stuff "dreary".

>>6054515

Wait for the revolution, mate.

Maintain the rage.

(God, I love co-opting Labor mythology.)

>>6054312
Richard Flanagan's brother wrote a novel on him it seems

Three lives in one