/lit/ - Literature

The term is grossly misused on /lit/.

>>6088221
this makes it harder for me to discern it's meaning
should i just "lol figure it out!!"?

>Google didn't really help..

yeah, you're just dumb. prose is any long-form text that isn't verse

purple wannabe poetic garbage = good prose

>>6088234
It's a dumb questions thread mate
That helps though

>>6088232
Here it's basically used as an equivalent of how 'gameplay' is used on /v/ - a meaningless fluff word. When someone says a text has 'good prose' they mean that they find its diction, syntax, cadence, figurative language, etc., agreeable for unspecified reasons.

>>6088284
How would I use it in the 'proper' way then?

>>6088314
You might describe *why* you found the prose agreeable instead of simply stating that it was 'good'. The proper use of the word 'prose' is just this: >>6088234

What is metaphysics? Something beyond the physical?

>>6088338
pretty much

where should i start with 19th century philosophy?

>>6088338
Reading about Plato's "forms" is probably the easiest introduction into the field.

>>6088338
>Something beyond the physical?
Anything beyond the physical.

This is a completely serious question:

How can anyone take the Bible for more than it is, an outdated book written in shitty Greek, that should only be looked at for its historical value?

>>6088367
Someone like Kierkegaard will give you a better answer than us.

>>6088374
What's the best of his works to get into at first?

>>6088384
He addresses the 'leap of faith' in Fear and Trembling.

>>6088362
What do you mean by physical?

>>6088341
>>6088352
>>6088362
Got it. Thanks, bros.

>>6088392
Ok, thanks mate!

>>6088367
Have you tried reading it?

Make sure to get a catholic version with commentary

>>6088467
>catholic

Is thriftbooks dot com a legit place to buy cheap books or is there a better website i should use

Has anybody 'refuted' or 'countered' Nietzsche?

>>6088467
I have read the Bible, yes. Not in Greek, but it's a shitfest anyways.

>>6088478
Nietzsche

>>6088478

refuted? no

countered? yes. many people would say that Kierkegaard is a counter to Nietzsche, Nietzsche criticizes religion for tricking people into submitting and limiting their will in favor of a supposed higher power, and Kierkegaard essentially says that being "tricked" in this manner is actually freeing and self-actualizing, that the leap of faith is the strength of religion, rather than its weakness

how you find books online

Also do most people like Nietzsche or do they make fun of him. Same with Freud

Where do I start with power structures? I'm looking specifically for power structures within nations or global market.

What is simulacra?

How do I stop myself from shitposting?

>>6088631
Read chapter 1: Kant, Capital, and the Prohibition of Incest of Nick Land's book Fanged Noumena

>>6088561
>google (book).pdf
>download pdf
>convert file for e-reader
walla

>>6088664
>>download pdf
>>convert file for e-reader
converting from PDF to epub or mobi is fucking unreadable. Just download them from gen.lib

>>6088631
Start with basics and Foucault if you haven't already.
>>6088645
Things which appear to imitate reality and thus seem to be sham representations, when really they are the reality as the putative reality they copied never existed.

>>6088650
Throw your modem in a lake

>>6088684
Like how I threw dildos in to the lake that is your mom's vagina last night?

I'm sorry Anon, I just can't stop myself.

should i read Zoot Suit?

Want to start living the /lit/ lifestyle but the last time I read a book outside of school was a few years ago.

Which books must I read? I'm looking for a fresh start.

Thanks.

>>6088703
Ahah! Your shitpost activated my counter-shitpost!!

Fuck u, cuck

>>6088728
Start with the greeks.

>>6088738
then go to V and/or tCoL49

Those are his most accessible works

>>6088350
Hegel.

>>6088367
There's some great stuff in there, literature wise.

>>6088478
Nietzsche's very last fragments, and poems.

>>6088728
What do you want to read?
Philosophy? Poetry? Drama? Prose?

>>6088746
>>6088728
Looking for anything good really. But if I were to pick, I'm mostly interested in drama and poetry.

>>6088738
Don't start with the fucking Greeks, everyone says that, but you'll probably just fuck yourself. Read some shit you read in highschool in a new light, then read some contemporary stuff. Apply what you learned about symbolism and metaphors and shit to the Greeks when you read them

>>6088757
Get a load of this pleb.

what should I do when I don't really understand a book/story/essay/whatever, just read it again? google what other people say about it? drown myself in my own tears while feeling like a failure?

>>6088777
What I do is talk it out with someone. This was immeasurably helpful while reading Lacan.

>>6088777
Nice trips, checked sincerely.

As for your question, read it again. And again. And again. Until you get it.
>>6088789
^This guy also knows what is up.
If all else fails, cheat via the interwebs.
If you fail at cheating, an hero.

>>6088749
If English is your native [and only] language, start with Shakespeare.

You might also want to start with the Greeks, especially for drama; --- Aeschylus and Sophocles only, the rest is noise.

Sophocles' Theban Cycle
Aeschylus' The Oresteia and Prometheus Bound

>>6088777
Underline and comment the work.
Sum it up on a separate sheet of paper.
Explain it to someone.

What is a spook?
What is pure ideology?

How come nobody talks about Wagner saying Neitzsche's problem was he jerked off too much, and that was why Neitzsche became hostile toward Wagner, not ideological differences?

>>6088395
Physical: What does a dog look like?
Metaphysical: What does God look like?

We can look at the dog and attempt to describe it because it is something physical-we can use our senses to describe it.

We can't "see" God physically, so we must ponder what he would look like without using senses.

>>6088847
Not to sound like a euphoric enlightened etheist but can you use another example than God?

>>6088839
Source...?

>>6088777
maybe the book is fucking retarded and the author a shit

>>6088664
>walla
It's Voilà.
"Walla" is something that immigrants from middle-east tend to say.

>>6088654
Thank you. I am broke currently does anyone have a pdf?

>>6088676
Who carries on Foucault's legacy best?

Any other books that create worlds like 1984? The story isn't important so much as the setting but every other dystopian title I've tried to look up by association (Hunger Games ugh) I can recognize as being not close to an Orwellian universe at all.

>>6088870
There is a Simpsons episode with 2 neologisms that is worth checking out.

>>6088870
brave new world

>>6088849
A lot of metaphysics deals with religious undertones, especially with the early poets like John Donne.

Do humans have souls? Is heaven real? Do aliens exist? It is kind of more broad questions, and in a lot of metaphysical poetry conceits are used to simplify the question/idea. We can't see souls, heaven, or aliens on earth, but we can discuss them without having to look at them

>>6088868
these guys

>>6088875
I'm reading BNW next but it doesn't seem Orwellian really.

I really want some shit with massive surveillance, people living fear of a secret police, political dissidents vanishing.

>>6088903
>>>/genrefiction/

How do I become a (good) tripfag?

>>6088883
Thanks, that's pretty interesting. Guess I'll start reading into that as well.

>>6088913
suicide

>>6088853
It was discussed in the entitled opinions podcast, the Neitzsche vs Wagner one. I forget the specialist. But the story goes: Wagner and Neitzsche were pals. Neitzsche's doctor and Wagner were pals. I forget if Wagner Recommended the doc. The doc and Wagner talk about, or send letters, about Neitzsche's health, his headaches. Wagner says he needs to get a wife and to stop jerking it - he uses some euphamism of the time. Neitzsche finds out about this from the doctor. He gets pissed. They go in opposite ideological directions, he away from Schopenhauer, Wagner toward him. The vitriol behind Neitzsche's criticism is most likely due to their falling out over the doctor and such. You can listen to the podcast, but I think it is alluded to in some of their letters.

>>6088913
Look, there's no such thing as a good tripfag. Even if all of your posts are of consistently high quality, the sheer act of being recognised within a mostly anonymous community,( a community that is distinct and valuable arguably because of its anonymity) is just setting yourself up for failure

>>6088853
Instead of the podcast you can just Google Wagner Neitzsche masturbation.

>>6088928
This triggers me.

>>6088938
Am I doing it right?

>>6088947
Yeah, might look at it later, although I don't really believe this kind of stuff, --- I mean, it could be true, and be a part of it, but most of Nietzsche's wrath was unleashed by Parsifal and Wagner's retarded antisemitism.

>>6088865
it's walla nigga just give it up

>>6088968
/ck/ represent

>>6088968
The poster could have used walla in that context seeing as it means something along the lines of "I swear". I should know, I'm a suburban Swede.

>>6088813
Copy+pasting my explanation of "pure ideology" from a few days ago:

An ideology is an all-consuming lens through which you view the world. A very simple example is anti-Semitism. If you're an anti-Semite, no matter what goes wrong, you find a way to blame the Jews. An ideological libertarian will reflexively think "how can the free market decide this" in response to any political or economic question. Etc.

"Spooks" comes from the extremely-not-renowned writings of Max Stirner, who advocates casting off sociological ideas that control us or restrict our behavior. For instance: you probably feel a responsibility to obey or take care of your parents, but to Stirner, the idea of "family" is a spook, and you are ethically obligated to feel no such thing.

>>6088746
Are you religious yourself?

>>6088993
>you are ethically obligated to feel no such thing.
*you are not ethically obligated to feel such a thing.

It was probably unintentional on your side, but there's a big difference and I just thought I'd point it out.

>>6088284
You're right, but I'd argue that it's not meaningless. Prose/gameplay/cinematography are all non-specific terms which are simply meant to call attention to the technical composition of the piece in question. However, if you can't actually specify which technical elements you find agreeable, then your criticism *is* essentially worthless.

>>6088956
Exert from Wagner's letter to the doctor

>“In assessing Nietzsche’s condition I have long been reminded of identical or very similar experiences with young men of great intellectual ability. Seeing them laid low by similar symptoms, I discovered all too certainly that these were the effects of masturbation [by hiding under their bed, perhaps]. Ever since I observed Nietzsche closely, guided by such experiences, all his traits of temperament and characteristic habits have transformed my fear into a conviction.”

You say you don't believe it before you've even investigated it. You are purblind and disqualified from being a disciple of knowledge with such thinking. Furthermore, I'm suspicious of the thought that the feud was about Wagner's antisemitism, because of the efforts exerted to clean Nietzsche's name.

>>6088215

I have a few, thank you OP

1. Why and where do I start with the Greeks?
2. How do you (/lit/izens, specifically) analyze a book? Do you look for themes/motifs, symbolism, etc? I feel like I read very shallowly because things either go over my head, or I just don't know what to look for.
2.5. What kinds of notes do you take when analyzing a book in such a way? What would a sample look like?

This is probably HS-tier shit, but we never really had to look very closely at stories in that context.

Please and thank you

>>6089069
What? I said I didn't believe it was the only cause to their feud.

>>6089249
Tallis, what languages can you read? Would you say that it's alright to read translations of Latin and Greek poetry/theater/philosophy? I'm currently a young guy with an interest in it. My school doesn't offer courses in Latin or Greek, so I'm learning French and really enjoying it. You also seem to have read a lot of this stuff at my age.

thanks

>>6089286
I don't read Greek nor Latin, and since I enjoy their drama and poetry, I could not really plead against reading translations, which is a meme anyway.

What's up with your French btw

>>6089337
I read French, English and some German, forgot to answer. Perhaps I should learn ancient Greek, looks like a pretty cool language.

I know that surreal doesn't mean unreal, but what does it actually mean? Like a surreal experience, or surrealism.

>>6089352
colourful kafkaesque :^)

>>6089337
>>6089342
You act as though learning a language isn't a huge problem. How did you go about learning French and a bit of German?

Also, do you have a set of works that you could deem essential for somebody interested in literature?

>>6088728
Are we talking fiction?

Don't start with any kind of poetry unless you are willing to put in the work to deconstruct the form. It's not easy and maybe difficult to find stuff you like.

Maybe read some high school / first year uni stuff alongside some intro text-reading. I recommend you start with coming of age stuff or short stories (easier to read). Before or after each text, write some questions for yourself to answer. These can be any sort of hows or whys or whats.

One exercise I recommend is to imagine yourself (You can do this out loud - I talk to myself a bit too much) explaining what the hell you read to someone else. How would you paraphrase the setting, the characters, the themes, etc.? Why is this text worth talking about? Can you relate it to something else, either another text or idea? In what was is a text worth talking about beyond how entertaining it was?

I can maybe recommend you watch a couple of films after reading up on film analysis, as that's a very quick way to burn through (read: practice analyzing) texts.

Anyway yeah, read some coming of age, short or easy-to-read stories. Maybe check out Jack Kerouac, Hermann Hesse, E. A. Poe., or something. You can also try your hand at faery tales like Aesop's Fables or some Grimm / Andersen tales. Don't use a kindle, don't be afraid to write on the book, writing commentaries / marking passages you like.

It'll be a bit of a climb at first, but reading texts isn't all that hard. It's just that you need to eventually really work on yourself and start reading on any idea that interests you.

Does anybody have any arguments against Christianity? I keep finding myself drawn towards it and deeply appreciating it, but at the same time I can't help but feel that it's a bit silly. Should I just finally read the Bible and Aquinas to settle my mind on this?

>>6089377
>How did you go about learning French and a bit of German?
French is my native language, and my father is a philosophy Ph.D, --- he used to translate Heidegger so he taught me a bit, before I took some classes.

>Also, do you have a set of works that you could deem essential for somebody interested in literature?
What do you want to read? I'd always say, read your classics in chronological order, but that's not always a possibility, so, what do you want to read?

Where do I go after the greeks?

Did I fall for a meme?

And does anyone have some philosophy chart or something?

>>6089407
Restart with the Romans.

>>6089393
Read the Genealogy of Morals.

Human, All Too Human explains why people like Aquinas are retarded.

If you're interested in Christianity, don't go for theology; it is a mistake I've seen being made a lot, --- even though Aquinas could be interesting if you have prior knowledge of the Bible and enjoy pointless discussion over meaningless subtleties, it really is a waste of time, especially on a religious level, as most of Aquinas wasn't written for laymen, in the etymological sense of the term. I and a friend of mine have enjoyed some of the Summa, but I really wouldn't recommend it. Stick to your Bible.

>>6089407
>Where do I go after the greeks?
Where do you want to go? What did you read?

Why are Forgotten Realms books not literature? Yeah its fantasy but some niggers swoon over asoiaf and act as if its equal to The Sound and the Fury.
muh different pov. muh different thought process. pic related

>>6089422
>>>/r/books

>>6089422
Because literature is a rather precise term concerning a particular literary tradition; the admiration of plebs on a chinese cartoon website does not make ASOIAF any closer to literature.

>Tallis
It was a good thread, guys

>>6089397
>French is my native language, and my father is a philosophy Ph.D, --- he used to translate Heidegger so he taught me a bit, before I took some classes.
Interesting. I always wish that I came from an intellectually strong family. My dad was an English major that's actually pretty damn cultured, though. Only a B.A., but he seems to be more intelligent than I've always thought. More interested in old English stuff, plays, and poetry.
>What do you want to read? I'd always say, read your classics in chronological order, but that's not always a possibility, so, what do you want to read?
Well, I recently borrowed a verse translation of Homer's Odyssey that I'm finding to be very enjoyable. I'd be interested in finding out more about Greek theater, philosophy, and poetry. I also want to check out Shakespeare, being a native English speaker and all. There are lots of things that I'm interested in, I just feel like I'm not knowledge enough to read them yet. Maybe that's the wrong mindset to be in.

>>6089420
Pre-Socratics, big three.

Anywhere.

is Paradise Lost any good?

>>6089447
probably

>>6089440
If you are enjoying the Odyssey, you will shit yourself over the Iliad, if you haven't already read it.

Aeschylus and Sophocles are the two great Tragedians; you should read them, --- it's all on wikisource and their complete works read in like 3 hours, while providing with a very important groundwork for the rest of history of literature.

I don't think you need any particular knowledge to read Shakespeare, if English is your native language. You must know about his plays and his ace quads --- Macbeth, Hamlet, King Lear, The Tempest.

How good is your French? Can you read stuff in original?

>>6089447

I wouldn't recommend reading anything so long unless you're willing to put the work in. Maybe read up some analyses and see if those sounds interesting or if you can find some interesting parts to read. Satan's part is popularly considered as the most interesting to read.

>>6089469
>How good is your French? Can you read stuff in original?
Not very good. Still feel free to toss out some names, though.

>>6089447
fucking gr8 m8

Book II with this:

Into my hands was given, with charge to keep
These gates for ever shut, which none can pass
Without my opening. Pensive here I sat
Alone; but long I sat not, till my womb,
Pregnant by thee, and now excessive grown,
Prodigious motion felt and rueful throes.
At last this odious offspring whom thou seest,
Thine own begotten, breaking violent way,
Tore through my entrails, that, with fear and pain
Distorted, all my nether shape thus grew
Transformed: but he my inbred enemy
Forth issued, brandishing his fatal dart,
Made to destroy. I fled, and cried out Death!
Hell trembled at the hideous name, and sighed
From all her caves, and back resounded Death!
I fled; but he pursued (though more, it seems,
Inflamed with lust than rage), and, swifter far,
Me overtook, his mother, all dismayed,
And, in embraces forcible and foul
Engendering with me, of that rape begot
These yelling monsters, that with ceaseless cry
Surround me, as thou saw'st—hourly conceived
And hourly born, with sorrow infinite
To me; for, when they list, into the womb
That bred them they return, and howl, and gnaw
My bowels, their repast; then, bursting forth
Afresh, with conscious terrors vex me round,
That rest or intermission none I find.

>>6089487
Camus is a good start, to practice your French. Once you really start to get it, move on to classics, so that you can get a good grounding in French syntax; unlike English, 17th and 18th century French is classical; it is the perfect way of writing it, especially in verse.

>>6089487
Canadian here. Maybe some Jules Verne will help you out with your language acquisition. Long texts that aren't, as far as I am aware, difficult to comprehend. Pretty descriptive and somewhat exciting.

Key here is taking is slow. Read some YA stuff until you are B2/C1 (that was my level of German when I started not only taking but participating in German-language university courses, for example). Even at B2, you may be too focused on understanding the vocabulary to bother understanding it. So yeah, focus on easy stuff.

>>6089516
>German-language university courses
I just realized that that might have been ambiguous: I was taking university courses in German, not language courses.

>>6089495
...what the fuck? is this some kind of demon rape incest erotica?

>>6089615
a scene of sin giving birth to death, as impregnated by Satan.

>>6089615
a scene if Sin giving birth of Death, as impregnated by Satan.

What religion are you, Tallis?

What's the deal with Nagarjuna?

Was Pozdnyshev right?

>>6089745
>religion

>>6090366
I'm serious. Do you follow a religion?

>>6090394
No.

>>6090394
edgy faggotism. He practices it by shitposting 24/7 and abandoning all pleasures that don't align with the neat lifestyle.

>>6088392
seconded

>>6090401
yup, the lifestyle neat af

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGt_JGHYEO4

>>6088803
i thought u liked racine

but no euripides?

pls

>>6090441
I love Racine. Fuck Euripides. It's socratic dialogues turned into plays.

>>6090470
stop being such a nietzsche cumslut and accept that euripides is flawed but rly good

>>6090470
Euripides emphasized emotion a lot more than reason.

Nietzsche was a hack, in many respects.

>>6090411
I'm not watching that

What are some lesser known philosophers out there? Whenever there's a philosophy discussion it's usually the same old same old.

>>6090530
Not exactly philosophers, but the French moralists are top tier.

Bump

If you don't believe in an afterlife, can you justify killing yourself?

A friend of mine just posted "Is Bottom from Midsummer Nights Dream the quintessential straight white cis male when he insists he should speak all the parts?"

What does this even mean? This is the same person that claimed to cry at the end of Unspeakable Things.

I am thinking I should not be friends anymore.

>>6091369
Imo it's actually easier to kill yourself if there's no afterlife.
When you are dead you don't care about being dead simply because you are dead. Makes sense?
It's a no regrets kind of situation. Like jumping from the 10 meter tower in the public bath. You just close your eyes and jump.

>>6091381
Anyone who uses terms like "cis male" in a non-ironical way should be avoided.

DESTROY ALL GENERALS ON /lit/
THEY DO NOT BELONG HERE
THEY ARE KILLING OUR CULTURE
MAKE A THREAD WITH A QUESTION IN MIND
DONT LET THIS BECOME /mu/

>>6091432
Calm down. Generals aren't that bad. Imagine instead if every individual question in this thread had gotten its own thread. It probably would've got me banned.

>>6091401
>When you are dead you don't care about being dead simply because you are dead. Makes sense?
Yeah I guess. Time to kill myself then.

>>6090530
The hermenautics aside from Haidegger. There's Herder, Gadamer and Dilthey. You can also include Schelimacher(or whatever his name is english is), but he is more than that. Also you can look up Hamman, if you want to get into proto-romanticism.

How do the decameron and the Canterbury tales contrast in quality? I can't read Italian, so I'll have to read a translation, and I can read middle English relatively well.

There any daily exercises I can do on the cheap to improve my spelling, grammar and vocabulary?

Oh fuck me can we not do this. Are we going to become like /g/ really? This is fucking stupid.

>>6093635
they are two different works of art of just about the highest level, i don't really know what else to say other than that. you pretty much have to read both

>>6088870
Fareheit 451 - Ray Bradbury

What's the deal with Infinite Jest?

I have an idea for a universe focusing on three, maybe four different cultures, all of which are very different from our own, no humans at all.

But i don't know how to do the story.
I was considering the first writing to be like one of those old poetic ones like Edda and Illiad, but i think that'd be very difficult, should i prehaps just write a story like any other book with a main character and a plot?
I also want the three cultures to get roughly the same focus

>>6088314
Read "good" prose like Ulysses and "bad" prose like harry potter.
Draw your own conclusions and fuck you faggot.

>>6096228
could perhaps write a history book or encyclopedia set in that universe if that is your main interest.
I think an epic poem or creation myth is a good idea to start with.

>>6095072
yeah it's called 'reading', you may have heard of it

Who is the next most significant Marxist after Marx himself (oh, and Engels)? I mean in terms of theory.

>>6096228
Every species is bound to fight for the greater commodity. None can be too different from humans in that sense.

>>6097389
When saying different from humans i meant appearance, for example, one of them has their hands backwards.

>>6097721
Kek
My sides

Why is wisdom so good? Why is remembering facts and shit so fucking good? It's dead information. Why do we constantly worship this?
>inb4 retarded

>>6097942
there's more to it than that, i just gave the best example without giving away me idea for the basics of the species

Can someone rec me something similar to No Longer Human?

>>6088873
interested, whats the episode?

>>6088873
>>6098961

unless this is referring to lisa the iconoclast in which case don't worry

Hey /lit/ I have a terrible vocabulary and I'm not very good at writing either. English is my mother tongue but being raised in a developing county I barely get to speak to anyone in English and I feel like I'm losing touch. What can I do to improve the overall quality of my spoken and written English? I am currently reading the O-zone by Paul Theroux.

>>6099327
Read a lot.