/lit/ - Literature

>>6661580
>Is Alan Watts a good or shit way into Eastern thought?

I think alan Watts does a good job of introducing Westerners to Eastern thought/religions.

He was personally a Zen Practitioner/Mahayana Buddhist. So obviously he his ethos/interpretation is skewed toward this perspective. Which is interesting when you think about it, because the historical Buddha was Theravada. This of course does not discredit Mahayana Buddhism, it just simply states which was the original.

For the basic understandings of Buddhism, he does suffice. However, I personally feel, one should not dwell on Watts forever. He himself jokingly calls himself a physician, he just wants to heal you and send you on your marry way. He's not looking for disciples.

People tend to overly glorify him, which is silly.


As for Lao Tzu, we have to remember that the Tao Te Ching is actually two books, the older, and the newer. The old book was probably written by him, the latter half of the book is more political. Hence, most historians believe the second half was written a hundred or more years after him.

Nevertheless, Lao Tzu's teachings (the first half) on simplicity and charity with no ego/recognition are things that I strive for in my personal life. Doing good in order to elevate oneself for prestige or title is not the way of the Tao. Doing good because it feels good and makes simple sense is the Tao.

As for Buddhism: I can dig Siddhartha's 4 nobel truths. They are very practical, but difficult to fully cultivate. Mahayana Buddhism, I personally feel, dapples a little too much into pre-reflective thinking, which in return, can cause apathy or even borderline nihilism. I am not saying this is the case for every Mahayana Buddhist, but when you read things like, The Record of Linji, and read how the monks are shouting at each other and compare the Buddha to a cylinder of shit, I feel it strays far from traditional Buddhism. Again, whether that is bad or good thing, doesn't matter to me.

As for Confucianism, this is, more or less, a political and cultural doctrine for Ancient Imperial China. Indeed, you can still see the cultural practices of family/state hierarchy. In is a philosophy heavy in social order, class structure, and obedience. To most westerners, confucianism is the opposite of western values, such as individuality, democracy, and freedom.

As for Hinduism. I don't know enough about it other than it is like an umbrella religion that sucks in everything, and declares it as a formulation of their own ethos/perspective.

>>6661580
>Eastern Philosophy
thread hidden

>>6662301
>nobel truths

>>6662306
Sorry, I can't spell right now. I'm very tired, forgive me if it is a bother to you.

>>6662301

>historical Buddha was Theravada
Is there an evidence for that? I know that Theravada is supposed to be the elder tradition, but then again how do we know that the teachings were really kept in the right order? There were schisms in Buddhism too, so how can we know that Theravada as the older surviving branch is really more closer to Buddha's teaching than Mahayana?

>>6662301
>Doing good because it feels good and makes simple sense is the Tao.
nice, many serial killers will support you.

>>6662418
>Is there an evidence for that?
None whatsoever. Just Theravadin claims "muh oral tradition". As a matter of fact it is proven that portions of the Lotus Sutra are as old as the Pali Canon.

>>6661580
>Is Alan Watts a good or shit way into Eastern thought?
He's babby level. Just don't take him too seriously.

>>6662301
> because the historical Buddha was Theravada
This is like saying "the historical Jesus Christ was Catholic"
Exactly the same.

Keep studying!

Drukpa Kunley was born into the branch of the noble Gya (Tibetan: རྒྱ, Wylie: rgya) clan of Ralung Monastery in the Tsang region of western Tibet, which was descended from Lhabum (lha 'bum), the second eldest brother of Tsangpa Gyare. His father was Rinchen Zangpo. He was nephew to the 2nd Gyalwang Drukpa and father of Ngawang Tenzin and Zhingkyong Drukdra.

He was known for his crazy methods of enlightening other beings, mostly women, which earned him the title "The Saint of 5,000 Women". Among other things, women would seek his blessing in the form of sex. His intention was to show that it is possible to be enlightened, impart enlightenment, and still lead a very healthy sex life. He demonstrated that celibacy was not necessary for being enlightened. In addition, he wanted to expand the range of means by which enlightenment could be imparted, while adding new evolutionary prospects to the overarching tradition. He is credited with introducing the practice of phallus paintings in Bhutan and placing statues of them on rooftops to drive away evil spirits. Because of this power to awaken unenlightened beings, Kunley's penis is referred to as the "Thunderbolt of Flaming Wisdom" and he himself is known as the "fertility saint".

>>6662640

>>6662640
>to drive away evil spirits
Tibetan superstitions...

>>6662688

Who cares. Guy figured out a way to fuck women. The ultimate charismatic authority!

>>6662631
I don't understand people like you. How old are you? Because the only way ill be able to internalize this is if you are around 14. But youre probably 40. Youre probably american. Youre probably gay and feminine. Truth doesn't matter huh? Only /feelings/ do. Right, this is what you think, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Sutra#History_and_background

Buddha is a historical character(historians agree as opposed to Jesus) that lived ca 500 BC. The lotus sutra which you claim are as old as the pali canon were made 400 years older then. It's also completely different in structure than any texts in the Tipitaka and that should be enough to render it a fraud.

>> because the historical Buddha was Theravada
>This is like saying "the historical Jesus Christ was Catholic"
>Exactly the same.

Far from it. Atleast the catholics and protestants read the same book. Different buddhists don't even read the same book...

>>6661580
I have question on compassion, since the last thread of >>6662688 died.

Take the situation of a person A, attacking, humiliating, nagging (whatever actions which are deemed bad) a person C.

If C is me, a monk, I must endure the person A, or at least, I must not be bothered by him, get on my day etc, because there is no self, no safe place.

If C is another monk, I know that the monk has no self, has no safe place and he knows what to do.

if C is a civilian, the principle of compassion says (or does it?) that I must help C in telling A to stop.
My question is why. why should I endure A, as much as I can (which is, as monk, a lot comparing to the average guy), but save C from A when C is a civilian.

There seems to be some relativity when it comes to give help. I must help others than I must help me. But if there is no self, if we are all made of some universal substance, why should I discriminate between me and the civilian C ?
After all, it is the fault of C to be nagged by A, since if C was some monk, he would not be pertured one bit by A. My help towards C would be the advise to become a monk, to adopt the buddhist view, to stop thinking that there is a safe place etc.

I ask not in order to say that I matter more than C, but rather to understand what concrete forms take the compassion in buddhism.

>>6662418
Theravada is not the elder tradition, Mahayana is just as old. People have that impression when they started comparing them with catholicism and protestantism, but they are nothing alike.

>>6662831
That sentence doesn't even make any sense. If you want to discuss like an adult you are going to have to start making sense.

Trying to make a general for all these subjects is fucking retarded.

>>6662754
>The oldest parts of the [Lotus Sutra] (Chapters 1–9 and 17) were probably written down between 100 BCE and 100 CE, and most of the text had appeared by 200 CE
>[The Pali Canon] was composed in North India, and preserved orally until it was committed to writing during the Fourth Buddhist Council in Sri Lanka in 29 BCE, approximately four hundred and fifty four years after the death of Gautama Buddha
Did you even read the article you linked to? Or do you honestly believe in snake gods?

>>6661580
Are there tricks to sleep sat ?

I ask because I will move in a flat devoid of bed and I do not have the means to buy and carry a bed (and I do not want to own a bed, since I will need to sell it when I move out)

My idea was to learn to sleep sat like the monks are trained to do.

If somebody relates to this, then advise me.

>>6662640
I am happy that I am a free Yogi.
So I grow more and more into my inner happiness.
I can have sex with many women,
because I help them to go the path of enlightenment.
Outwardly I'm a fool
and inwardly I live with a clear spiritual system.
Outwardly, I enjoy wine, women and song.
And inwardly I work for the benefit of all beings.
Outwardly, I live for my pleasure
and inwardly I do everything in the right moment.
Outwardly I am a ragged beggar
and inwardly a blissful Buddha.

I used to be into perennial philosophy view but after awhile I started to move away from that view, the differences between eastern philosophies which do not believe in a personal god and those religions who do are too big of a break. Another big difference is between those views which promote asceticism and escape from this world (some forms of Buddhism, Jainism and some forms of Hindu asceticism) and those who promote a more balanced, this worldly approach, usually non-dual based views such as Mahayana or earthly ones like Daoism. So basically I'm starting to see world religions mostly on this chart.

Its a very loose theory that I've only just started to work out, what does /lit think? And yes I am partial to the nondual this word way of thinking.

>>6662754
I don't know anything about Buddhism, but historians do agree that Jesus was a real historical figure. Obviously they differ on whether he was the son of God, but Jesus was a real teacher.

>>6661580
>Alan Watts
I sorta think of him as the C.S. Lewis of Eastern thought; it's a solid introduction and overview, but thinking he's one of the profound greats of those areas is going to lead to you missing a lot of the depth they have to offer.

>>6662301
Other people are quibbling with you but I wanted to say thanks. As someone who knows absolutely nothing about buddhism and was sick of people telling me to read modern authors like Watts; your recommendations for Lao Tzu and 4 nobel truths were just what I was looking for, classic texts.

I just printed out James Legge's translation of Tao Te Ching, hopefully I'll learn a bit.

>>6662825
I must treat grass and cheese differently for I have only one stomach...
However, what is cheese if not grass?

>>6663713
very nicce chart!

>>6664008
ah but he is great in what he is...

>>6663713
> Christianity
> "ultimate goal is escape from the world"
Kids these days! Fucking idiots.

(Protip: "escape from the world" is the goal of Gnosticism, not Christianity. Christianity and Gnosticism are the ultimate rival religions, Gnosticism is Christianity's dark nemesis enemy.)

>>6661580
>>6664044

If its classical texts you are looking for, I also recommend these:

Buddhism
>The Dhammapada (specifically pic related)

Taoism
>Tao Te Ching

Confucianism
>Analects

Hinduism (not sure, but I would personally, maybe, start with these. I think Easwaran also translated the Upanishads, its probably good)
>Vedas
>The Upanishads
>Bhagavad Gita

>>6662754
This>>6663361

Even Professional scholars/buddhologists know Theravada came first. It was becoming corrupt, so monks tried to reform, hence Mahayana Buddhism came into the picture. This is basic history 101, how can you not know this?

>>6662301
What books do you suggest for a person who wants a better understanding of taoism? Should I jump strait into the Tao Te Ching? If so, any suggested translations?

I think the ``profoundness'' of eastern philosophy is really just a result of the cultural differences. We see them as so different and exotic when if we were originally from those cultures we would think nothing special of them. Like I had a friend from Thailand and he went to the temple for good fortune. He wasn't all mystical about it like American Buddhists are

>>6662301
Boastful much?
Whenever someone on /lit/ takes a stance on 'muh original Buddhism' they come out looking like an ass. You have no knowledge of original Buddhism. You barely have any knowledge of Buddhism in general. Reading a text or two doesn't make you an expert on what a religion was at the moment of its founding. You are less of an authority than any of the local theologians are, and you're clearly so removed from Buddhist and Eastern culture that your view of it is irreprarably hampered by distance. I have Asian friends and I've studied the Analects, the Mencius, the Juangzi, the Daodejing, and the I Ching, as well as Catholic doctrine/metaphysics and the philosophies of Hegel, Heidegger, Marx, and Plato, so my criticism is valid.

>>6665657
wow top fucking notch insights you got there bro

>>6665814
Why are you being so hostile?

>>6665657
Eastern philosophy touches on a lot of the use metaphysical concepts in different ways than Western philosophy does. A lot of this is due to the influence of Christianity, which divinely fucked up our perception of Being compared to the Eastern conception. Mind-centric monism and idealism a LA Platonism exist in the East, but their ontologies, including their political implications, are quite different because of the differences between the Abrahamic faiths and Eastern religion.
Ethically, Confucianism is on par with Aristotelian ethics. They're very similar doctrines.

>>6665815

He has been hostile throughout this entire thread. I have no idea what his problem is, just ignore him.

>>6666229
that was my first post in the thread, anon
>>6665815
any discussion on the fetishization and commodification of eastern thought in the western world is just plain boring compared to any actual engagement with the philosophies themselves; and the former is often used as an excuse to neglect the latter. there are mad misguided soccer moms quoting the buddha on some "mystery of the orient" type shit but that's just a banal observation not worth noting on a high-quality cherokee smoke-signalling index such as this

>>6665657

>I think the ``profoundness'' of eastern philosophy is really just a result of the cultural differences.

Because for the most part it's primarily onto-theology, not rigorous philosophy. And it's "profound" for the same reason people think Derrida is profound. You already know why.

>>6663550
hahahahaha this can't be a serious post

>>6666604
it is mate. I want to try sleeping like those monks, if it works, there is nothing but advantages to it.

>>6667388

If you do this, you will fuck up your sciatic nerve. No joke.

>>6665645
The Tao Te Ching is written for simplicity, because the entire teaching is all about the sage cultivating simplicity. It will not be difficult to read. Any translation is fine. I hear the B&N version is good.

You will be amazed on how you can read the entire book in a day, but contemplate it for entire lifetime.

There is only one legitimate school of Eastern Philosophy and that is Mao Zedong thought.

>Daily reminder that Mao Zedong thought would have been 100% successful if China wasn't hamstrung by lack of education, lack of mechanization and if people in the 1950s actually knew jack shit about ecology and modern agricultural techniques.

Despite all that, Mao Zedong thought turned one of the poorest nations in the world with one of the highest death ratios into a thriving regional then world super power with death ratio as low as first world countries while also casting off over a century of colonization and empowering women in a deeply misogynistic culture to the vanguard of the great Peoples Revolution.

All give thanks and praise to our great Chairman. Long live Mao Zedong thought! Long live the Peoples Republic of China!

>>6664336
but humans are all the same and i do not consumme them

>>6667421
how do the monks do then ?

>>6667467
>Mao Zedong Thought
>not Marxism-Leninism-Maoism

> Long live the Peoples Republic of China!
Go fuck yourself

>>6667467

Moa's Great Leap Forward was an economic disaster that killed millions of his own people.

>>6667845
Using the exact same metrics used on China and the USSR, the Great Depression was an economic disaster that killed millions of Americans.

>>6667882
>the Great Depression was an economic disaster that killed millions of Americans.

Nope, sorry try again. Not sure what kind of commie education you have been receiving, but that is simply untrue.

>>6667890
Really? Then the idea that tens of millions died in the Great Leap Foward must be untrue.

Using the EXACT SAME STATISTICAL ANALYSIS done on the USSR and China, there is around 8-12 million missing Americans from the Great Depression period.

Explain it.

>>6667894

The Great Depression was a global financial phenomenon, not just limited to the US.

The Great Leap Forward was strictly a Chinese disaster created by Mao.

>>6667441
Cool, I will look into it.

>>6667882
The Great Depression wasn't planned, and the US was already industrialized by that point.

>>6666379
Fuck off

,mnmbb