/lit/ - Literature

>>6885565
TKAM, A Clockwork Orange, a lot of other shit.

No, but several films remake novels and do just that. Though, sometimes it's a good thing, other times it's a bad thing.

I ain't played a LoZ game in a while but MM was p good, what happened?
Also the Bible

>>6885579
MM is the only LoZ game worth playing if you're looking for anything valuable.

If you played MM from the point of view of a general audience, nothing but good things. They made the bosses better, added fishing for whatever reasons, and other gameplay changes.

If you played MM from an analyst's view, critics view, or someone who likes to find the deep meanings in everything, the game removes several symbols and censors dialogue that relate to darker themes. In addition to that, the atmosphere is a lot more romantic, making the game feel less mature in places where it's not supposed to be. In addition to all of that, it's a less "visually" compelling game overall, because while it has better graphics, it doesn't have better cinematography nor does it take advantage of fog, lighting, and other systematic drawbacks.

Webm related being the original, and you can google the remake's artstyle if you care enough.

>>6885565
Any piece of poetry that gets translated suffers this to a degree. A poem is so fragile because the exact wording and meter and rhymes and message only truly exist in the original language that when translating things must be sacrificed or approximated. Before I buy any poetry I research the translator and look at how they choose to translate the work. Usually they approximate words to keep the verse accurate or disregard form but keep the diction as close as possible. I end up reading more than one translation if I can find it and listen to a reading of it in order to try to fully appreciate it. This isn't really want you meant but I'm throwing this out there anyway.

I can't believe how the only videogame of any artistic merit is the one that has to be remade and bastardized.

>>6885892

>the only videogame of any artistic merit

You forgot Earthboundand Papers, Please:^);^)

>>6885892
I would say Yume Nikki has artistic merit which was slightly bastardized by fraudulent marketers

>>6885901
SotC

>>6885892
>>6885901
>>6885910
Is modern Sociopolitical Commentary too standard for you pretentious faggots?

>>6885910
SotC has zero artistic merit. It's not profound in anyway, it's just an emotional ride for children. "Woah! I get to scale big scary well designed creatures! This is so epic!" It's very "epic," yes, but the only "artistic" thing it has is "Don't trust demon's or else they'll revive your girlfriend and turn you into a baby."

>art videogames

Sup lightweights

>>6885925
Also acceptable

>>6885938
>>6885938
>dension
am i spelling it right? can't find anything on it

>>6885968
The name of the game is actually "The Void," I don't know where the fuck that cover came from.

>>6885968
Tension, which is the European title for The Void

>>6885596
sounds like you just don't like change. nothing was deduced from the original after all

I typed a fucking essay to reply to >>6885999 about why he's fucking wrong, but I hit backspace when inputting the captcha on accident, and my entire essay was gone just like that.

I proceeded to bash my skull into the wall for a good 5 minutes.

So to summarize my original post:

>You're wrong.
>Like, really wrong.
>There's reasons why.
>If you tell me to go back to watching Game Theory, you should know that faggot pulls whatever analysis/theory he gets off the internet, regardless of quality or validity, so he's hit/miss in terms of being right/wrong.
>Shut the fuck up, you stupid faggot.

I hope that should suffice.

>>6886024

Is all this mad about how the MM remake changed things from the original or something else?

>>6886040
No, it's all mad about how I lost a long-ass essay I had written for FUN because I didn't periodically save anything, and I just lost ALL of it.

But no, the premise of the original post was that there were a TON of messages deduced from Majora's Mask that range from social commentary on racism and how we have to learn to accept death in our society through means more efficient and meaningful than mourning and those aforementioned stages of grief.

Well, it would be aforementioned had I not lost the entire post.

>>6886046
I'm sorry, I just wrote a clusterfuck of words and stream-of-consciousness-lite. I really don't want to put effort into my writing anymore after what just happened.

>>6886050
At least you learnt to Ctrl-C your posts.

>>6885565
Some authors have revised books when they've been reprinted years later. Some examples:

John Fowles - The Magus
Don Delillo - Americana
Mary Shelley - Frankenstein
JRR Tolkein - The Hobbit

Frankenstein seems to be the one that fits what you're describing the best. The 1831 revision is regarded as being changed only so that it could be printed in a more a censorious Victorian climate. When it was included in a Uni course I did, they said only the 1818 original could be used, not the 1831 revision.

>>6886046
>a user of 4chan for I'm guessing years
>not automatically hitting 'crtl+a' and 'ctrl+c' before going to hit the post button
It's like you aren't even trying.

>>6886024
curious to hear the essay now. Nothing was taken away from the original game, you can still go back and play it in all its glory.

>>6886117
Pic related can summarize my entire essay. Majora's Mask 3D does this to every example I list in my essay, and many more.

MM3D is definitely the definitive version for a "couch gamer," I suppose, but it's not the one that should be given lectures about in the future.

>>6885565
>bashing the only zelda game that does a reasonable job of developing its shitty characters and plot
/lit/ everybody.

>>6886189
Majora's Mask 3D bastardizes those aspects, and much more, though.

Dunno about a rerelease of a novel, but the modern film version of the Time machine changed the plot to a stupid fucking action movie, and the humans were perfectly smart.

The modern film version of Brideshead Revisited also completely changed the plot. Instead of being largely about Catholicism, they made it super gay and about forbidden love, its barely even the same story.

>>6885596
In this one webm alone.

1) The four-leaf pedals on the flower: four-sided object pattern that occurs in the game constantly, which in japanese culture, "4" can also mean "death."
2) A triforce is created by the two light sources engulfing Skull Kid, which implies skull kid's great power within the Zelda Universe's lore. In addition to that, those light sources have a "texture" to them, showing off childish symbols like circles, stars, triangles, etcetera, implying that Skull Kid is also a child.
3) The symbol on the floor, though given more focus in later frames, is an upside down "triforce" yet again, though one of the triangles is smaller than the rest, and pointing towards link, who is known to have the "triforce of courage" in earlier titles. This implies that his courage is waning in the aforementioned "personal journey."
4) The Majora's Mask itself is a wonderfully crafted art piece that has a lot of meaning to itself. It shaped exactly like a heart, has two staring-eyes in it, and has spikes jutting out of it's sides. There are many things I could say about this, but I'd go on for days.

There is one more, but this is really loose--tatl and tael at his sides look strikingly similar to those "angel" and "demon" versions of a character who sits on their shoulders and discusses what they should do, done in several cartoons, films, and novels. Though, that might just be coincidence.

Two of these four things are removed in MM3D.

>>6886215
Honestly, it just sounds like you're buttmad that the game no longer supports your personal headcanon and/or wacky lore theories.

"No more upside-down Triforce glyphs? That's 3 years of my life straight down the toilet, NINTENDOOOOOO!!"

>>6886046
>>6886024
>>6886159

why do you call it an essay when each post can be maximum 2000 characters?
that's maybe 2 or 3 old youtube comments

>>6886215
>which in japanese culture, "4" can also mean "death."
>A triforce is created by the two light sources engulfing Skull Kid, which implies skull kid's great power within the Zelda Universe's lore.
>This implies that his courage is waning in the aforementioned "personal journey."

These are all terrible and show you reaching too far and projecting tenuous meaning.
For one thing the two light sources don't make a triforce pattern around skullkid. they're just a triangle.
The only legitimate point you make is the shape patterns in the light sources, it is a slight pity that was removed.

but in general this post makes your stance and original claims seem less credible.

is this thread real?

>>6886575
They could have VERY EASILY prevented this image (and the triangular shape created by the two conic light sources) from appearing on the floor if they simply used one lightsource or not used a lightsource at all. This was done intentionally.

In addition to that, they wouldn't have shown off this angle unless they were trying to show us this symbol.

Finally
>which in japanese culture, "4" can also mean "death."
What the fuck is wrong with this claim?

>>6886595
>What the fuck is wrong with this claim?
grammar and phrasing

>>6886599
In Japanese, the number four (Shi) has the exact same pronunciation as Death (Shi).

This is a known superstition, several multi-story buildings don't even have a fourth-floor because of it.

It's not unthinkable that a japanese videogame would make numerous references to it in a videogame about death.

>>6886575
The game's intended audience are fans of OoT, LTTP, and Zelda 1/2. 2/3rd's of that audience have clearly grown up by that point, so MM is meant to deliver a mature zelda experience. In addition to that, it's a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time, so using symbols from previous titles that are meant to represent something within said universe is completely reasonable, has been done in several novels/films, and should be applauded.

>>6886607
I'm perfectly aware of that, and it was a Chinese thing before Japan stole their hanzi and shit. But what I am pointing out is your terrible use of the comma.

And no, it's not because there's a 4-sided object in a video game that it means "DEATH". If I were to mention the 4-leaved clovers scatter throughout Minish Cap, or numerous 4-sided objects in all LoZ games, I could make a statement contradicting yours exactly.

The flower you're seeing so much symbolism in has 4 petals probably because for whatever reason it signals a possible interaction to the player better than a 3-petal/5-petal flower. It's a common object at the beginning of the game and is designed to visually stand out so the player can understand he can use them to be cannoned in the air and glide for a bit

>>6885892
>>6885901
>>6885925
>videogame of any artistic merit
>F-Zero X is more artistic than The Last of Us
>UFO: Enemy Unknown is more artistic than Shadow of the Colossus
>Resident Evil 4 is more artistic than Ico
>Hotline Miami 2 has more artistic merit than Papers Please

Prove any of these wrong. We need to stop judging video games by the standards of other forms of media. So many of the most praised ones are regarded so highly for their cinematic or literary qualities. People need to start judging video games as video games. This is hard because games are weird and relatively new but I feel like even 90% of 'serious' game discussion and critique goes in the wrong direction. I'm not saying that I have the right one but video games need some kind of Harold Bloom figure to just start setting shit straight before the industry talks itself up to the point of abstract retardation.

The indie scene has already almost killed itself by trying too hard to be anything but video games, I don't want it to spread further.

I don't remember exactly why I started writing this post so I'll just make it clear now that I like Majora's Mask in case I implied that I didn't at some point.

>>6886641
I suppose you are correct, maybe it's just a coincidence more than anything else.

Still, it's nice to think that considering all the other evidence (Four giants, four days, four transformation masks, four children, four dungeons, patterns containing four-pedals scattered throughout the game).

I think the flower design DOES have some importance though, because a lot of the patterns I was referring to look slightly similar to it.

>>6886647
>Hotline Miami 2 has more artistic merit than Papers Please

That's the only right thing that you've said in your entire post. It's the pulp fiction of videogames.

Anyone have the /lit/ approved vidya list?

>>6885938
icepick lodge blows retard

>>6886658
Did you stop reading there? The point I was trying to make was that I don't think anybody is capable of proving any of those statements right or wrong because of the way we think of video games.

You seem pretty sure, but could you explain the artistic merit of Hotline Miami 2, or Papers, Please, or any other game? Artistic merit gives me a headache. What is it and how do we measure it? I've thought about it a lot and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it.

Maybe we could consider the creator's intent with their game (fun, 90% of the time) and then look at how all of the elements of the game are handled and how they come together to achieve this goal.

This is simple enough if we look at Super Mario Brothers. Bright colours, catchy, simple music loops and simple inputs used to get past increasingly difficult obstacles with a score at the end. None of these idea's contradict each other and they can all be generally agreed to be "fun".

That might have been a bit shit but I wrote it in about a minute and was just going for a simple example. Things would get far more complicated if were to look at one of those other 10% games that shoots for something other than providing its audience with anything other than raw enjoyment.

Hotline Miami 2 could arguably fall into this category, but I also think it could arguably be a satire of this category as well and that's what makes the story so damn entertaining.

If I wanted to break down the elements of Hotline Miami 2 to look at how the developers achieved their goal of fun, or fucking with their audience or whatever it was they wanted (probably both) how would I do that? It would probably be much more complicated, and even then, who says it's a remotely reasonable way of assessing the merit of a video game?

Thinking about video games on any deeper level than fun can be annoying. I understand John Carmack's nonchalant approach to storytelling.

>>6886670
No but I bet it's awful. Somebody post it so I can feel superior to people who have read Finnegan's Wake because I've played more Japanese jumping simulators.

>>6886689
>Thinking about video games on any deeper level than fun can be annoying.

Fun is a pathetic buzzword used by filthy plebeians who participate in artistic mediums as a form of entertainment instead of trying to learn or become enlightened. The same people play Call of Duty, watch Transformers 4, and read Fifty Shades of Grey.

You should not associate with those people, but you should be aware of their existence, because you have to work and socialize with them every day, and take advantage of their abilities and talents outside of art in order to be efficient in society.

>>6886647
fun and good =/= possessing artistic merit

>>6886215
4 is death in Chinese culture not Japanese. How tenuous can your arguments be?

>>6886724
It's death in both cultures. Just because it was stolen from another culture doesn't make it any less prevalent in another culture.

>>6886024
>Typed a whole "essay"
>Couldn't type the Captcha
I buy this

>>6885596
The original LoZ is great for the sense of exploration it gives. It does not hold your hand, like later games, giving you the feeling of being lost in an unfamiliar place.
The second is the most in depth Zelda game of all with actual RPG elements and is probably harder than the original. The difficulty in LoZ came from uncovering secrets, the gameplay was very straightforward and easy to master, but Zelda II makes it much harder to stay alive, while maintaining many of the exploration elements, although there aren't secrets, but rather areas that are difficult to reach.

After that the Zelda games are largely follow the same formula. Majora's Mask differs the most from the norm, but is still story driven and very straightforward. They just became adventure games after Zelda II, and I haven't been able to enjoy them as much.

>>6886721
>art can't be fun

>>6886721
I know that. I think that artistic merit is an artist or artists accomplishing what they set out with the intention of doing.

If the intention was to create fun and something really fun is created then that is artistic merit, at least in some form. I understand how flawed this thinking is because by the logic I just used League of Legends has artistic merit due to achieving its goal of extorting handfuls of money away from duped teenagers but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at.

I think that artistic merit can exist in several forms, including fun. And also I have fun playing games that aren't meant to be fun because I get so much enjoyment out of appraising their artistic merit. I don't care what people say about Yoko Taro, I think that his games are fun and thought-provoking at the same time. I did every side-quest in NieR and never felt bored.

>>6886744
Misinterpreting his point moron

>>6886647
Half-Life did everything a game should do, tbh. Attention was paid to shooter, horror and mystery elements, while every detail is fleshed out just enough for an observant player to learn more and more about the setting even minor enemies throughout the game. If the game were made into a novel it would be a ridiculous, stupid pulp military sci-fi book (the exact sort of novels the man who wrote Half-Life wrote most of the time), but as a game it works much better, and there was no apology made for this source material.

>>6886777
I agree. I played Half-Life in maybe 2010 or something and was amazed by how well it played. It's rare to find that kind of passion and attention to detail that I think characterizes great art in a video game.

>also
>Half-Life >>> Half-Life 2

>>6886777
>implying interactive narratives are games

>>6886777
The gameplay is shit therefore the game is shit

>>6886787
>games
>video games
I see what you're trying to do, but they're different terms. Also there are definitely parts of the game that aren't on rails and have multiple valid approaches.

>>6886793
That's just, like, your opinion, man. The weapon selection was extremely well thought out. There's no good jack-of-all trades weapon, so that element alone forces you to constantly make decisions unless you're the kind of idiot who powers through everything with the SMG.

>>6886785
HL2 was fun but a lot of aspects of it were reddit-core. Plus it just didn't break the mold the way the original did.

>>6885901
I didn't know Dark Souls was remade and bastardized.

>>6886824
>redditcore
>using trash buzzwordds to describe a game that was out long before reddit even existed

Just stop posting

>>6886845
4/10

>>6886824
No, video games are just games played through an electronic visual medium. Don't try to twist definitions so you can still call your stories games.

>"There’s a huge variety of console games out now, but to me, the majority of them aren’t actually 'games'. The word 'game' means something competitive, where you can win or you can lose. When I look at recent games, I see that quality has been declining, and what I’m seeing more and more of are games that want to give you the experience of a short story or a movie.

>"This is most obvious with role-playing games, where the 'game' portion isn’t the main focus, and I get the feeling that the developers really just want you to experience the story they’ve written. So when you ask what I think of games today, well, it’s a very difficult question for me. I end up having to say that games today just aren’t games to me.

>"The essence of games is competition, and I think that’s a remnant of our past as animals, and the competition of the survival of the fittest. I think you see it reflected all through human history, how people with wealth and power want to have harems, acquire women… that kind of thing is at the root of humanity."

Gunpei Yokoi said that.

>>6886835
Haven't you played dark souls 2?

>>6886858
>it only counts as a 'game' portion if i say so
>i can show gameplay on a screen without visual representation

>>6886882
Lmao I bet you like anime

>>6886885
i bet you're ugly

>>6886858
Okay, then by that definition I'd say Starcraft and SC2 did everything I want in a game.

For other people it would be the Half-Life multiplayer mods Counterstrike and Team Fortress 2. Maybe Call of Duty, Halo or DoTA.

Is CoD really the greatest video game of all time?

>>6886845
It has a meaning independent of the actual site called Reddit. Just that cutesy, "I'm such a nerd", "le cake is le lie" "I fucking love science" horseshit. It's like porn; you recognize it when you see it.

>>6886893
CoD has a consistent aesthetic. to some it's fun to play, to others it's fun to make fun of. either way it's still the most talked about gaming franchise of yet. a classic, and underrated in the video games art discussion.

>but it's not expressive and it doesn't have a moral message aboo boo boo

pick up an art history book

>>6886903
Don't put words in my mouth. It was a genuine question asked in good faith, which I suppose is practically it's own kind of trolling on this site.

>>6886916
get fucked you worthless shit

>>6886902
Lol and whatever is so reddit about HL2

And what makes it so bad

>>6886888
Nah I'm pretty hot

>>6886923
It's a game for nerds

>>6886923
I just said some things were Reddit about it. I actually think it's a great game because you spend the majority of your time alone where none of the annoying bits of dialogue matter.

>>6885565
Moby Dick was originally published in England without the epilogue and people thought it was stupid that it was narrated by a man who apparently did not survive.

>>6886923
Lots of Half-Life 2 is mediocre hype moments that are kind of novel the first time around and then just boring afterwards.

It's the Bohemian Rhapsody of video games. I'd use a book analogy but I can't think of something that works.

The only games with some analytic artistic merit:
>Majora's Mask
>Metal Gear Solid 2
>Suikoden III
>Silent Hill 2
>Xenogears
>Portal
>Papers Please
>Spec Ops: The Line
>Kentucky Route Zero

There are some other minor indie titles but I'm more interested in the ones that were somehow made by studios.

>>6887272
Pretty limited range there m8

>>6887272
I'd add
>Abe's Odyssey
>American Mcgee's Alice
>Dark Souls
>Halo
>Super Mario Bros.

>>6886647

F-Zero is better than The Last of Us because The Last of Us is decent movie with some ok interactive components, while F-zero, which is about racing, contains mechanically great races. It's like how Hitchcock thrillers are always going to be better than mediocre oscar-bait dramas.

I haven't played RS4, Ico, or UFO, so I won't comment.

Papers please is a masterpiece because there is a nearly total unity between the form of the game and its subject matter. (If you don't know what I'm talking about you either haven't played the game or you're stupid.) Hotline Miama has an interesting visual style and a fresh story, but at heart it's just a 2d shooter.

>>6887411
>Abe's Odyssey
Possibly

>American Mcgee's Alice
No

>Dark Souls
No

>Halo
No

>Super Mario Bros.
No

The last 3 in particular are utterly meaningless. Their mechanics are fine but they have no message to analyze, it's all empty posturing about how leet you are with your hand eye coordination.

>>6887272
Alright kill yourself immediately please. You are clearly not operating in your area of expertise but you give off the air that you believe you are.

kk

>>6887476
Okay, kid.

Once you grow up enough to make substantive comments, you should make your way back here,

>>6886987
there's gotta be a book like that

>>6887492
The martian

>>6887464
>Super Mario Brothers has no artistic or literary merit
>What is Surrealism
>Implying it has less of a plot than works like Finnegan's Wake

>>6887411
Halo lmfao

>>6887497
>Implying it has less of a plot than works like Finnegan's Wake
confirmed for never having read Finnegan's Wake

>What is Surrealism
Super Mario Brothers is not surreal. That's like saying any children's book with simplistic narrative and bright colorful characters is surreal.

>>6886700
>as a form of entertainment instead of trying to learn or become enlightened
does fun play no role in art for fuck's sake?
and jesus if you want enlightenment go eat some fucking mushrooms

>>6887512
>Super Mario Brothers is not surreal. That's like saying any children's book with simplistic narrative and bright colorful characters is surreal.

You don't have to be some pretensions rich University-grad hack to meet the definitions of "Surreal."

I could get my 5 year old niece to fingerpaint an air-plane with a dog for a head and cookies for stars in the background. Congratulations to her, she's created a "surrealist" art piece.

Where's her art critics and buyers lining up to drop thousands of dollars for her work like the preschooler Marla Olmstead renown for her abstract "Masterpieces"?

>>6886189
He's not bashing MM, he's bashing the remake because it loses what makes MM great

Inference, anon; use it. You're better than this

>>6887543
Pic related
If this girls works are Abstract art I'm pretty fucking sure Super Mario Brothers can meet the qualifications for "Surrealism."

>>6887519
>does fun play no role in art for fuck's sake?
No, it doesn't. I would say fun is almost diametrically opposed to art. Satire can work but fun for the sake of fun is merely a distraction. It doesn't add to you understanding or appreciation of the world around you or its concepts. In fact, it serves almost the completely opposite role.

Escapism is the bane of artistic expression.

>>6885565
>>6886193
>>6887556

majora's mask is my favorite zelda, just wondering how exactly the 3ds remake ruined the original?

>>6887543
>>6887559
Her work is not abstract art. Don't be an idiot. an artistic work is not about the physical work but the context that surrounds it. There is no valid context under which mario can be considered to have anything serious to say about the world.

You seem to be unable do understand the importance of authorial intent in the determination of what a piece of art means.

You can argue that absolute nonsense "the author is irrelevant" tripe that people without the inclination for research ability use so they can apply any context they want to anything that exists but I don't suppose you want to appear that stupid.

>>6887560
>>6887519
I disagree.
You're defining "fun" too narrowly. When enjoying a work for pure aesthetics alone, for pure enjoyment artistic principles are needed.
That's the difference between the Star wars Trilogy and the Prequels. The former are "Fun" because they are artistic and good. The latter are CGI trite and they're not fun at all.

>ctrl-f Deus Ex
>No results

>>6887589
>an artistic work is not about the physical work but the context that surrounds it.
And how that context interrelates to the physical work.

It's the reason why the art of one culture may be difficult to understand for another culture.

>>6887595
I don't consider any of the star wars movies art. They are completely vapid power fantasies made for teens.

It didn't necessarily destroy the message but a long time ago I bought a condensed version of the Count of Monte Cristo that cut out around 700 pages of it, which seems pretty ludicrous.

>>6886980
On a similar note Richard Adams had to add an epilogue to The Plague Dogs because people were unhappy about the two dogs drowning at the end, so instead the original owner shows up to rescue them. The movie version ends with the implication that they're going to die though.

>>6887464
>Abe's Odyssey
criticism on capitalism, slavery, battery farming
>American Mcgee's Alice
Surrealism used to represent aspects of mental illness
>Dark Souls
-The rise and fall of nations
-The Abyss as metaphor for the political left and the Flame for the right
-The nature of life and death
-Criticism of people who give up on their aspirations (Hollows)
>Halo
-The corruption of religions by extremists (The Covenant are a metaphor for Islam)
>Super Mario Brothers
The Elite (the Koopas) taking the political
benefits of the Monarchy (Peach) from the working class (Mario)

>>6885565
Tolkein wanted to rewrite The Hobbit in the style of the LOTR, but fortunately he only got through one chapter before realizing how incredibly bad of an idea it was

>>6886088
>doing that
>not knowing you can just ctrl z if you lose it

pathetic

>>6887589
Okay I'll go ahead and be an idiot here, why does intention matter? Most of the people who create artistic movements don't define themselves by those sort of intentions, their work is only classified by it after the fact when their imitators and analyzers take over them.

>There is no valid context under which mario can be considered to have anything serious to say about the world.
The context for which surrealism aims to say meaningful things is the ability to which it can open up a window into the surreal, the unintelligible window into imagination and explore the subconscious. That SMB is marketed as a videogame doesn't exclude that, an a critic going into it without any biases would find that's very much an effect the mario games can have playing through.

If you want to exclude the gameplay and read the concepts are pure text they can say different things and paint concepts in themselves. The sky levels where you get the wing ability paints a portrait of inescapable freedom and serenity. The dungeon levels with WOMP blocks that pound in you, walls that move and close in on you, narrow passages, ghosts that follow you, an inanimate objects that hurt you just by touching them say a lot about physical contact and fear. They can be pretty easily read as painted portraits of claustrophobia, fear of isolation, confined spaces and so on when you put together all the elements of each level.

The developers may not have been thinking exactly that interpretation but there's a very obvious undertone and coherent intention that signify easily determined things. Why cannot the context of the work within itself say things about the world based on the intent from which it was designed?

>>6887618
But but m-muh nazi symbolism.

>>6887648
This guy gets it

>>6887618
I wouldn't be that harsh. They're certainly awful and vapid, but they have some redeeming qualities (lifted from Monomyth).

>>6887638

>Abe's Odyssey
these things are in the game but it doesn't have much to say about it other than, "This kind of sucks, huh?"

>American Mcgee's Alice
To be fair, I haven't played this so I'm not going to argue with you about this.

>Dark Souls
>-The rise and fall of nations
Why? Because it shows a dead world? What does it actually say about it?
-The Abyss as metaphor for the political left and the Flame for the right
How does it use this metaphor to deliver any message?
-The nature of life and death
Again, this is something that just exists in the narrative but the game says nothing substantive about it.
-Criticism of people who give up on their aspirations (Hollows)
This is a really weak assertion. Hollow people are the soulless remnants of reanimated corpses. How does this translate to people giving up on their aspirations? Even if it does, what does it say about them? that they live in an undead state?

>Halo
>-The corruption of religions by extremists (The Covenant are a metaphor for Islam)
>The Covenant are a metaphor for Islam
No they aren't. I actually own the legendary edition of halo 3 which comes with a disc containing the cinematics of Halos 1 and 2. They have developer commentary and the covenant is most definitly based on a pre modern catholic church with several instead of a singular pope.

>Super Mario Brothers
>The Elite (the Koopas) taking the political
>benefits of the Monarchy (Peach) from the working class (Mario)
This is literally the most tenuous reading of anything I've ever seen. I can expand if you want, but really, just stop.

>>6887638
>>Super Mario Brothers
>The Elite (the Koopas) taking the political
>benefits of the Monarchy (Peach) from the working class (Mario)

keep fighting brother

>>6887648
Look, literally anything can be art in our postmodern world. It's a regrettable side effect of our living in subconsciously nihilistic times.

Technically your definition of art is not invalid but that's because there is not a valid definition of art becuase "art" is an artificial concept.

So, I choose to consider as art, only the things which make an attempt to say anything substantive. Southland Tales and Donnie Darko are technically art because the creator thinks he's saying something. That intention is what distinguishes it from something like Jurassic World which has no message because it is merely a product.

The only context by which I would consider purely mechanics oriented games art is if you say that the creators wanted to make people happy.

I happen to think though, that that definition is far to close to the jurassic world end of the spectrum and too far from actually having a real message. Your ham fistedly trying to apply readings to these games that are not supported by anyone experience either playing or creating said game go to show the reason why we need to come down from the state where anything can be considered art.

>>6887714
It's hard to know if my point is valid because I didn't design those games. I designed "Games" however, cheap computer games with amateur programs and generally speaking whenever I designed anything from enemies, levels, to characters there's always an intention. Sure there's some entertainment value at hand, I wanted the player to enjoy them, but I also cared about the thematic narrative of the game I'm putting out and get a feel for what I was communicating. It felt as expressive as painting or drawing. I was just a hobbyist who didn't profit off those games or anything, but I don't know whether or not I can discount game designers own artistic integrity to call it just a pure "product."

I've also played the game(s) I used as an example and that's my experience. If it were just random mindless fun I'd chalk it up to entertainment, but there's a lot that I thought about and feels like it has a theme and idea to explore.

Having severe OCD myself I and a degree of anxiety, I get terrible claustrophobia on the road. I fear crashing into people, scraping against metal and dying. Somehow the same aesthetic designed in those games seems to capture and say something about people like me who feel ghosts and objects are going to bump in the night and cause terrible harm, so it speaks to my subconscious.

There are a lot of other unique experiences like this playing SMB that aren't so much as always "readings" but feelings evoked through thematic consistency. Everything from the music, the colors and backgrounds, to the gameplay work like brushes to evoke these emotions in specific combinations. If that's not art, what is it?

I don't consider that definition of art hollow or nihilistic, just more based on the audience, or the consumer if you want to call it that, whereas your definition of art privileges the creator. The elite and few, that they have power over the substance of art rather than the people that will be recognizing it.

And even than there are plenty of Videogames that have very strong messages that are too indued by their creators not to be intended. Games like the Earthbound trilogy and Metal Gear for example, respectively on their messages of Humanity Vs the Environment, and todays current Socio-Geopolitical climate and it's effect on culture and media. The creators, like Hideo Kojima have spoken extensively about the writing and what they're "Saying" about the games. And Earthbound sold terrible because it's ideas were so strong it was unlike any "Game", but became a cult classic. It failed as a product but made art in the process instead. Hell I've written whole essays on the comparisons in literary technique between Earthbound and Samuel Beckett's work.

It's not always just for entertainment you know. You shouldn't discount those creators artistic vision so easily, less we say the Sistine Chapel isn't art just because it was a paid commissioned and not any statement by it's painter.

>>6887806
>I don't consider that definition of art hollow or nihilistic, just more based on the audience, or the consumer if you want to call it that, whereas your definition of art privileges the creator. The elite and few, that they have power over the substance of art rather than the people that will be recognizing it.

That definition is entirely baseless out of necessity. The reason it is a byproduct of our nihilistic times is that it refuses to admit that any concrete basis exists. That authorial intent does exist however. You are choosing to ignore that intent so that you can have your own interpretation which is fine for your purposes but meaningless to everyone else.

I choose not to accept just any interpretation specifically because at that point nothing is invalidated but also nothing is actually right. At that point, artisitc discussion is reduced to a comparison of how people are made to feel by various objects and structures.

>You shouldn't discount those creators artistic vision so easily, less we say the Sistine Chapel isn't art just because it was a paid commissioned and not any statement by it's painter.
The sistine chapel is bourgeois art, as vapid as star wars. it is very similar to a mechanics centered game because the appreciation of it is entirely in its technique and not its message.

Indeed, I would not consider it art, or rather meaningful art. beauty is not a prerequesite for art an not everything that is beautiful is art.

>>6887672
>Abe's Odyssey
Yes, it uses symbolism to show these things are bad.
>Dark Souls
-It shows that you cant make a kingdom's golden age last for ever, that everything will eventually lose its glory, but something new can be built on its ashes.
-It shows that they are both as awful as each other and that they'll both lead to a point where you have to choose between them again, but you still have to make a choice between them.
-Nito shows that everyone is the same and together in death, Izalith shows that life is naturally chaotic and will expand to the point of suffocation.
-The Hollows being people who have given up on their aspirations is made extremely clear by the characters who go hollow, and it shows that they are pitiful and soulless doomed to never move forward and desperately try to bring others down t their level.
>Halo
The corruption of religions by extremists (The Covenant are a metaphor for the Catholic Church)
>Super Mario Brothers
Meh it probably is tenuous but that's just how I remember it.

>>6887858
>The Covenant are a metaphor for the Catholic Church
They aren't a metaphor for anything. They're a spooky alien government you fight. The game has nothing do actually say other than that the player character is a badass.

>>6886741
egoraptor opinion parroting

>>6887856
And I find that definition frivolous out of it's own redundancy. The very reason it's artistic at all is because there's no concrete definition, and transcends even mass-production. If you have to label it as art with strict qualifiers it ceases to become art.

>At that point, artisitc discussion is reduced to a comparison of how people are made to feel by various objects and structures.
And what's wrong with that? I don't get this whole obsessions with wanting objectivity in art. People can find common ground about what they feel and why. Those games aren't made intentionless, the design choices form a dialog between the consumer and creator.

>Indeed, I would not consider it art, or rather meaningful art. beauty is not a prerequesite for art an not everything that is beautiful is art.

Fair enough, would you settle for just saying some works are "Artistic" even if they're not strict art? Because when you say that beauty is a prerequisite it goes right back around to the realm of "comparison of feelings", just like "meaningful."

What may be meaningful to you and a circle of Europeans may not have any relevance to individuals far off in the real world, for instance.

>>6887626
>a condensed version
plebbbbbbbbbbbb

>>6887272
>no planescape torment

end yourself m8

>>6885929
>thinking something needs to have some sort of lesson in order to be 'artistic'
it's got an interesting atmosphere and a huge empty world to explore

>>6887879
In the original religion the Jews (the humans) were God's (the forerunner's) chosen people (the reclaimers) after all life was wiped out by the flood. Later the religion was corrupted by extremists (the covenant) into thinking the jews (the humans) were dirty and corrupt, and should be wiped out as heretics.

>>6887893
>And I find that definition frivolous out of it's own redundancy. The very reason it's artistic at all is because there's no concrete definition, and transcends even mass-production. If you have to label it as art with strict qualifiers it ceases to become art.
You have to back this whole sentiment up seeing as it is neither convincing nor self evident.

>And what's wrong with that?
It leads to the conclusion that there is no art, which is true but also useless as a realization. artificial limitations and categories are far more useful than all encompassing generalities that are do vague to be meaningful.

> Because when you say that beauty is a prerequisite
I say it is not a prerequisite. Art is made for an audience, to tell something to an audience in a way more convincing than if it were delivered by speech or essay.

"Art" that the rich buy to put on their wall that will make them feel peaceful is worse than no art at all. It's purpose is to allow those rich to feel self satisfied for doing nothing more than acquiring some object.

Why are so many disregarding gameplay mechanics as a form of aesthetic value when it comes to Videogames? Is not gameplay the most distinct component of a game which makes it unique from all other mediums?

Is it not artful for a survival horror game to communicate the struggle of being alone and outnumbered not just through visual symbolism but through the act of the player having to survive? Is it not artful for a game to have a perfectly balanced multiplayer that allows for creative use of mechanics while also not rewarding players who play sloppily?

Super Mario Bros is one of the most artistic games there is because despite it being 30 years old its mechanics are perfectly sound, its gameplay, to someone who hasn't being inundated by game genre trivia, is still perfectly graspable despite running on a unique form of logic (touching enemies kills you, mushrooms are good and bricks dispel money) and is challenging enough to give a veteran player an enjoyable challenge. Super Mario Brothers is pure distilled gameplay and a representation of what makes the medium different from all the other mediums.

>>6885929
>thinking something needs to teach you a profound lesson to be art

You are a fucking cancer.

>>6887928
Harold Bloom is the worst of those that think the highest form of art is the vapid and pretty meant to amuse people with degrees.

Aesthetes are the fucking worst.

>>6887923
>Is it not artful for a survival horror game to communicate the struggle of being alone and outnumbered not just through visual symbolism but through the act of the player having to survive?

Shameless plug for Pathologic.

>>6887923
mechanics alone do not make something art. It is the use of mechanics to communicate to the player that make something art.

Silent Hill 2 has technically awful mechanics but their clumsy and obtuse controls allow the game to communicate fear to the player far more effectively than if it had tight responsive controls. Further, the game has actual substance to go along this techmatic use of controls.

Mario does not. It's a fun little game like pong. It has simple functional mechanics, it's a good distraction but not much more.

>>6887893
>Because when you say that beauty is a prerequisite it goes right back around to the realm of "comparison of feelings", just like "meaningful."
I direct you to: >>/lit/thread/S6821830

>>6887942
plebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

>>6887978
I'd gladly be a pleb rather than being a stuffy hedonist unable to admit my hedonistic tendencies.

>>6887960

What about the fact that the game runs on a surreal logic which is divorced from a normal understanding of functionality? And yet despite that the game is still graspable without instruction. The colorful inviting aesthetic belies the amount of planning and thought which went into making the games mechanics and goals immediately apparent. Its been some time, but I believe there is an interview with Shigeru Miyamoto which elaborates on the amount of planning which went into just the first few feet of the first level to make the player get on board with its unique logic. A well designed video game is like an invisible orchestra which to the player seems like nothing at all.

What does /ic/ think of Mathematical Beauty. Would an equation able to define the very square root of Pi be "Art"?

What about an equation able to pinpoint the exact location of an Electron at a given moment?

Not even a STEMfag here, I'm just curious.

>>6887948

I actually have not been keeping with new games for a while now so I don't know what you're talking about. I was thinking of ps1 and ps2 survival horror games.

>>6888007
So an video game equivalent of artistic Functionalism or simple "Formal" art?

/ic/ here

We get this thread every other week

You should come check our out sometime, the fanatics always come out of the woodworks

>>6888031
fanatics on which side?

>>6887990
I'm a hedonistic aesthete: fight me.

>>6888042
Are you happy?

>>6888007
Something being well engineered does not make it art.

If it did, I submit the A-10 to you. It's incredibly well designed.

>>6888021
It was a Russian game from 2005. It had a horrid translation and clunky mechanics, but it's getting a remake next year. It's the only game I'm excited for right now. Hopefully they don't butcher it like the other games ITT. If you're interested, here's some articles on it.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/10/butchering-pathologic-part-1-the-body/

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/11/butchering-pathologic-part-2-the-mind/

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/12/butchering-pathologic-part-3-the-soul/

>>6888042
About what? We clearly operate using different criteria. Do you want to argue about which is "right", because I have news for you, I don't think we're going to agree.

I'll have the argument if you want though.

>>6886024
>I typed a fucking essay to reply to >>6885999# about why he's fucking wrong, but I hit backspace when inputting the captcha on accident, and my entire essay was gone just like that.
>Not using Lazerus or Form Filler Firefox Addons.
dum/10

>>6888037
Yes

>>6888025

Not entirely. To continue with the "orchestra" analogy, the designer is conducting the player to learn the mechanics and become familiar with the game, and then simultaneously pressing those newly learned skills and trivia of the game by challenging it further through increasingly difficult levels. However, and this is the most beautiful part, the player is forming their own methods of playing the game which is not entirely predicted by the game designers. The designer conducts the player, but it is not rigid and absolute, and there is room for improvisation. With Super Mario Bros this is very clear, since one need only watch any one of the countless rom playthroughs to see the various trickery people come up with while playing this game to this very day.

All of what I said isn't inherent to every game either. Especially with modern games, who clearly conduct players through scenarios, but do it so bluntly and uncreatively, like through literal hallway levels or quicktime events. The trick to making an aesthetically perfect game is to invisibly direct the player but also allow for the possibility of unplanned or creative solutions to emerge which the designers might not have possibly accounted for. Examples include the Metroid series and the invention of rocket jumping in quake.

Fuck off /v/ no one fucking cares why do you have to take your cancerous teenage pissyfits to other boards

>>6886684
Your shitty bait makes me smile

this is the worst thread ive ever seen on lit and ive played literally hundreds of games. just admit they are a lower medium, and not art. kill yourselves.

>>6888061

Yeah but the A-10 isn't an engaging yet challenging game which still has people coming back to it 30 years later.

>>6888128

Found the actual /v/irgin in this thread.

>>6888133
>which still has people coming back to it 30 years later.
think again

>>6888160
I'd argue it's both challenging and engaging as well.

>>6888160
>>6888182

I'm sorry, I thought you where making a bureaucratic reference to an A-10 form.

Anyway, I'd actually agree that engineering can be a form of aestheticism. I don't really set a hard limit on creative endeavors. A plane is rather aesthetic in that its form completely serves its function and is also geometrically balanced.

>videogames

>>6886919
I love you daddy.

>>6885892
Play Silent Hill 2 m8

>>6888396
That was shit. A cheap ripoff of Jacob's Ladder and that movie wasn't that good. Also the Japanese can't into American locales. Or names.

MM is one of my favorite games, but people really need to chill on it. All of the atmosphere and nuances that people read so heavily into are really just the product of a streamlined development process. The reused assets and game engine meant a smaller team of about 40 people could release a sequel to OoT (a game which took around 5 years of development time) in about only a year. The 3-day system was put in place because it meant they could create a more compact game world without betraying the relative depth of design expected from a more "full-fledged" world akin to Hyrule in OoT. Furthermore, the dark atmosphere isn't necessarily as deliberate (from an artistic direction) as people like to believe. The game required an expansion pack because it was originally developed on the 64DD before being ported to the N64. The extra 4 gigs of ram meant that lighting could be more dynamic and post-effects like haze could be introduced. However, in order to comfortably incorporate a greater draw distance and npc count the team had to utilize dynamics to balance out the demand on resources. This meant you had more vibrant colors and effects, often seen through focal objects, but as a result much darker environments were needed to compensate. One way this was achieved was by using lower-res darker textures on scenery objects that weren't necessarily noticeable, balanced out by high-res textures of actor objects and other important stuff. The result is this immediately apparent vibrancy of high-res actor objects surrounded by a rather large swathe of low-res dark surroundings.

Obviously It would be ignorant to try and suggest that Majoras Mask isn't a naturally dark and, to an extent, more "mature" Zelda. But people have made it a habit of taking this general understanding and running the game into ground "blue curtains" style. In interviews given around the time of release, Miyamoto and Anouma have explained that the game was meant to be mysterious more than it is dark. They explicitly said they wanted players to explore the role and function of minor characters and, I'm assuming, that on a grander scale show how each character contributes to the overarching mystery of the game world. People saw this mystery and completely misinterpreted it with respects to the visual context of the game. Looking at the game retrospectively, this is a fairly easy mistake to make, It's easy to so readily compare this to OoT without first understanding the developmental relations. The combination of vague and often cryptic dialogue as well as the dark and foreboding atmosphere can be construed as some massive culmination of artistic intent meant to exemplify an overwhelming feeling of disparity and loss. But at that point you're reading too far into nuances based on assumptions and missing the bigger picture.
(cont.)

>>6888559
In reality the game was designed first for functionality, it was meant to be a proper sequel to one of the biggest games of the 90's with only about a fifth of the development time of the first. The 3-day cycle was meant to create an incentive to explore the continuity of a much more compact, yet equally complex world, creating a sort of artificial length. The dark subject matters, when really examined, are more vague than they are dire. Obviously certain elements are pretty dark in a sort of cataclysmic way, but only in a way meant to fit the 3-day narrative or exemplify npc correlations. There's a certain degree of symbolism as well, but its only utilized in a way meant to push the mysterious tone. MM is dark, depressing, and mysterious, but not in the deliberate and nuanced way that people so often try to portray. It's mood is chiefly a result of design implication.

The part that really bothers me though, is that in this constant championing of Majoras Mask as some massively misunderstood nuanced artistic examination into the mortality of man, people have missed the creative genius of its creation. There's something beautiful about how the devs were able to make a game world with such functional depth even in respect to their time constraints and how, as a result of its functionality, a unique aesthetic value was derived. The dark aesthetics felt so natural despite the overwhelmingly uncanny setting, not because everything was so carefully placed and primped with respect to symbolic significance, but because the aesthetics were derived naturally as a result of the functional importance of each individual element. The result is a world the feels genuine, alive, and even massive despite its relatively small physical size, a sort of authenticity that no game has captured since. The dark themes and motiffs are an interesting departure from typical Zelda settings, but it's the merging of functionality and aestheticism where the game really shines.

As far as remastering goes, the problem with trying to remaster a game like MM is that the limitations are what ultimately defined it. It was developed from the ground up with a very strict focus on the N64's limitations as well as the time constraints for development. Everything, even the 3-day cycle, came out of this focus on developing within the realm of their limitations. You take that away and start changing things here and there and you end up betraying the overall fluidity of design. It's perfection is a product of its environment.

>>6886724
"4" can be pronounced as "shi" in japanese, which is "death", if I recall well.

>>6886085
I think I may have read the unrevised Americana. And it was shit.

>>6888559
>>6888578

That was a beautiful post man. I and I very much agree. MM is a game I really like, and yet I think people hold it in too high esteem. It sort of makes me cringe when people call it some dark masterpiece.

To be honest I always thought the game was more surrealist than dark. It's hard to call it dark when the game has many tender moments, and the general message seems to be that humanity is great and really good in the end and that emotional connections are important. In fact, by constantly drawing attention to how dark it is, I believe the fanbase doesn't give the game enough credit for its tender optimism. I guess that's just not seen as "cool", these days.

Also, I think almost all art is made with limitations, and that's what often makes it great. OoT was made with heavy limitations as well. I don't like my games to be "perfect", I like them to feel raw and mysterious and working around limitations often adds to that.

Here's my problem with the remake: first, remakes are just an ugly idea, a morally ugly one. It's almost like they're saying the original isn't good enough simply because it's aesthetics aren't in vogue with the times. Never mind the fact that low-poly 3D, when done well, has evoked some of the most mood out of any games ever made. It's like they took MM and just put a new coat of paint on it: the new art style isn't even inspired, it's almost like it could have been done by a logical computer program giving the game an "update". It seems to ruin the integrity of the product.

Also, this seems a very unpopular opinion the e days, but I believe that OoT has just as much as, if not more, artistry and beauty in its design than MM.

>>6887587
Same, someone just make a small summary to spoonfeed us

>>6885565
When a novel is put down onto paper, there is fortunately a culture of loyalty to the original work (in the text form at least). I suppose we could talk shit about translators, but honestly I don't think there are enough polyglots who have taken the the time to read translations in the original and the translated version to have a real discussion about this.

Now where this does happen alot is when something is being adapted to a different medium. V for Vendetta is the first example that comes to mind. They whitewash all of anarchist motifs from the story and instead make it about good ol' murica style democracy. My anarchistic sensibilities have dampened somewhat, but it still makes my blood boil to think of what they did to that story.

>>6887559
Why do you think a child cannot do abstract art ? Children can joke, draw, learn several languages, play around with concepts and geometric figures and tell stories. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to paint something that can be considered close to abstract art (although the term "art" is a bit pretentious here, but fuck, a painting is a painting).

I have a feeling this while argument is happening because you and a couple others are operating with their own narrow personal categories that are unfit for discussion.

Animal Crossing is art.

>>6887543
>>6887559
There is a huge difference between Surrealism and being surreal. Read some Breton, bitch

Jesus Christ why do we always have this thread? Planescape: Torment and Metal Gear Solid 2. Sometimes Deus Ex, Xenogears, and SotC. That's it. We don't really need to argue about this because fucking video games are not fucking novels or poems or philosophy or pictures of DFW.

>>6891301

Someone please explain Animal Crossing to me. I don't get it. I've experimented with it before but I'm worried that its game of catharsis for those whom socializing and normality is a novelty.

>>6885596
>>6886215
This is the most autistic shit ever. Seriously kill yourself.

>>6893361
your worries are true

>>6889963
It didn't. OP is just autistic.

Thanks for only posting about video games on a literature board in a thread that isn't even supposed to be about video games, autismobros

>>6893450
yer welcome

>>6886215
what is it with autists and majora's mask?

shit game tbh

>>6886215
>There is one more, but this is really loose
the other points weren't?

>>6887464
Something does not need a specific message to have artistic merit. These games each create an atmosphere. Are instrumental songs not artistic because they do not contain any specific message?

>>6893378
>>6893477
>>6893600
>>>/v/
>>>/mu/
>>>/tv/
>>>/sp/
>>>/b/
>>>/anywherebuthere/

Get the fuck out of here, you uneducated wastes of a bump.

>6886215

Christ you're trying so hard to defend what is essentially an escapist toy for children as an artistic masterpiece because you have no knowledge about any other form of art and are probably too old to latch onto anything else. Even if you are too old, maybe you should try, because right now you're just coming across as an irate 14 year old defending his favorite comic book. Jeez.

>>6893378
>>6893477
>>6893600
>>6893905
Why are you samefagging? Why are you bumping this thread and adding nothing to it?

>>6893891
>shitposts about vidya on a literature board
>tells other people to get out
Your mom should've aborted you.

>>6885596
>>6886215


Fucking autism.

>>6885596
>>6886215
quality 9th grade english analysis m9

>>6887638
>(The Covenant are a metaphor for Islam)
lmao

>>6887638
all of those games just say "this thing exists, and it's bad." theres no actual commentary

>>6887272
>not a single golden age game
>not a single crpg
>no PS:T

die.

>>6894224
Of course there's a commentary, especially in Dark Souls (I might do a thorough analyse of it like the OP did for MM if anyone is interested).
Keep in mind this is in comparison to >>6887272
the only one I've played recently is Thinking With Portals, and you can boil that's artistic expression to,
>using humans in experiments are bad
I was never saying they were the among most original profound creations of the human race, just that they cross the threshold necessary to be seen as art.

>>6893378
>>6893477
>>6893600
>>6893905
>>6894180
>>6894194
/v/ is leaking onto our board. What have you done, OP?

>>6894633

No they don't. You have a whole board. blz go

Metal Gear Solid

>>6885596
That feel when that pond of water that Link is floating above on the lotus is a strait through which Epona escaped and swam to Romani Ranch.

15 years. It took me 15 years to figure this out.

>>6888559
>>6888578
I whole-heartedly agree. Howbeit, I feel you are selling the game short on certain deliberate aspects of its dichotomous story-telling relationship with OoT.

The two games share a bond which I would be hard-pressed to imagine any other work of fiction does, because the characters in Ocarina were made with a finer backstory than that which is portrayed in-game. MM was made with the intention of exposition for the unsung background of OoT's secondary characters, using an alternate world as a catalyst. Mostly this revolves around the family of Anju. Examples:

>Kafei is a Sheikah version of Link, an adult reverted to childhood (this may go deeper if you recall that Impa makes note in the mange that pierced ears are rites of Sheikah when they become adults, implying Link's one).
>Grog is an analog to the flute boy from ALttP and an archetype found throughout the series of a master apothecary (his granny) with a master bird breeder grandson. This was hinted at in OoT various times, but never more than in the gossip stone which reveals that his sister Anju collaborated with the lakeside scientist to create a medicine (possibly hinting at a talent in potion-brewing) that would make her overcome her goosebumps and take up the dream her brother was forbidden to by their chauvanistic father.
>This suppression of his heart leading him to suicide, possibly commentary on the normism of misplaced values of inherited family trade over living out interests in Japanese old folk.
>In MM, he becomes what he could have been in Hyrule.
>Granny, whose previous only indirect interaction was with her grandson, now lives reliant on her granddaughter who is a clumsy but self-made woman on the edge of marriage to the Mayor's son (sort of Cinderella-esque).

>>6895269
horses literally can't swim

>>6885577
Clock work orange was what I was thinking

>>6895281

Horses can swim though

why would you lie like that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHPPOFbLb3c

>>6895269
I think Epona was actually disposed off--the other Epona is simply another one of those "alternate universe" Epona's, must like the rest of the characters in the game.

I think this because the twisting hallway is the portal between termina and hyrule, which is why you go outside and you see the sky. You were turned upside down, and thus on the opposite side of the planet or whatnot.

>>6885565
Well, that's sort of what Kubrick did with The Shining, expect he actually added all the subtlety.

>>6896170
Sameguy here
The twisty portal came after the fall into the crevice that you can say lead to Termina (the mask ghastly outlines being a psychedlic welcoming choir to the new world). That's a pretty sagacious observation there about the world turning over though. And to be fair, time does change if you debug the game only after Link passes through the twisty portal (it's frozen at midnight in Hyrule, then jumps 6 hours when you enter Clock Tower).

However I think it's the same horse because:
1. Skull Kid says he's joking, and either him or Tael would likely apologize at the end had he killed Epona.
2. She recognizes Epona's Song.
3. Link goes the way to Romani Ranch at the end, implying he knows there's another way back to Termina, that Epona came from.
4. Epona has to have been found a few days before Link arrived in Termina. The time dilation can be accounted for by her having fallen and entered into Termina before Link.

>>6887587
Played both versions, though original a long ago so my memorier are a bit hazy. Overall they didn't really change that much. Added some elements that make the remake more convenient to play and not such a chore, changed controls for some segments which are easy as the original ones if you aren't a literal retard, updated graphics. The story is without any actual change. The new aspects of more specific time travel makes the game more accessible since it removes the parts when you had to wait for 15 - 20 minutes of real time but that kind of diminishes the atmosphere of rush and demise of the world you are playing in. Both are good versions.

Play original Majora's Mask for the first time if you got time. 3DS version is for re-plays and people who don't have time.

>>6897774
>changed nothing
Not quite. The most criminal transgression being that they dumbed the boss fights down so now there's only one set way to beat them.

>>6895269
The limitations and them having to make a game makes things better than today where you can 'do what you want'. In essence, limitations and less freedom mean lesser art, and art is limitation. If you draw a giraffe, you must draw him with a long neck. If in your bold creative way you hold yourself free to draw a giraffe with a short neck, you will really find that you are not free to draw a giraffe.