/lit/ - Literature

>>8879365
>I've progressively begun to embrace the beauty of suffering.

Enjoy being a virgin for the rest of your life.

>>8879365
Cuck

In any case no doubt you would have failed had you sought to acquire worthwhile possessions. Don't kid yourself re. your true motives.

Nietzsche. He had a hard-on for asceticism.

>>8879365
That's actually the character resolution for the protagonist of Crime and Punishment.
>Suffering can also be a good thing. Go and suffer!
A detective tells him this before he heads to prison, encouraging him because he knows that all Raskolnikov needs is "fresh air" and a reality check.
I really couldn't recommend it enough

Also Siddhartha

>>8879365
Pursue moderation and asceticism insofar as not letting desire rule your life but don't be masochistic about it. Read the Stoics, it's ok to have nice things as long as you don't get attached to them. Better to be a poor man who can enter Heaven than a rich one who cannot, but better still to be a rich man who can leave his riches behind and enter Heaven when his time comes.

>>8879365
Marcus Aurelius or really any stoic

>>8879365
I'm in a similar mood, and I saved the pic, OP. Thanks.

I recommend:
>Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse
>Zen Mind: Beginner's Mind by Suzuki
>Letters From a Stoic by Seneca
>Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

I also recommend some stream of consciousness journaling.

>>8879365
>implying any of this is suffering
a little self denial and healthy living isn't suffering you spoiled brat.

and Buddhism doesn't say that suffering is good, its all about the elimination of suffering, though some Buddhist works admit that its useful (same thing Nietzsche says)
>>8879450
>asceticism
no

Very good thread so far, guys. Thank you all for contributing.

>>8879487
I spoke too soon. I very plainly said that it was mostly just, "the abandonment of irrelevance". But who reads the whole post anyways?

I would also argue that Buddhism focuses on conquering suffering rather than eliminating it, but that's a lot of typing that would likely lead nowhere.

>>8879365
Self imposed suffering isn't the kind that's going to help you grow as a person and experience the fullness of life, but if it gets your pecker hard then go for it.

>>8879501
I know what you mean, i've been thinking about the whole suffering/desire dichotomy, and also whether to embrace or eliminate suffering. my conclusion was that true zen behavior is an activity done not for the purpose of achieving something (a desire or a goal) but actually in the spirit of non-achievement, just doing it to do it, being in the moment.

>>8879501
well you eliminate suffering by conquering it

>>8879504
self imposed suffering isn't really suffering, its more like masochism which is pleasurable to some.

>>8879504
Is it self really imposed if I simply stop avoiding it? That can also be said for avoiding things like starvation, but it all depends on what you do and don't consider necessary.
Bloody subjectivity again.

I'll be embracing all suffering, is what I'm saying.
>>8879511
I agree

>>8879518
To conquer is not to destroy, Anon. At least not always.

>>8879521
I agree

>>8879501
>"the abandonment of irrelevance".

You'll be sitting on the ground realising how bored you are in no time. No matter how many stoics you read you are still going to be a human being.

>>8879365

that isn't suffering that is being an idiot

set yourself on fire

>>8879511
yeah if you want to get nirvana through buddhism, that is a desire and leads away from nirvana

>>8879537
It depends what I consider irrelevant.

>>8879539
I'm not that badass and I like living.

>>8879553
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZhwhd4yJW80

>>8879365
Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu

Epictetus, Seneca

>>8879365
>he has to go out of his way to suffer
Pretty weak desu senpai.

>>8879365
>started eating much less and healthier
This is such an American idea of suffering, lol.

>>8879593
>>8879634
Abandonment of irrelevance.

>>8879365
>intrinsic value

uh, there is none

If you really want to suffer you should do the opposite of all that.

Particularly the eating healthy food bit. Eating junk food will hurt much worse in the long run.

>>8879365
How would you define 'life'? Could you explain how getting rid of all of your belongings gets you closer to your goal of appreciating "life alone"?

Could you not argue that the belongings and things you're giving up on are part of 'life'? Where do you draw the line on things you give up and things you don't? You have chosen not to give up shelter, or a computer apparently, why are you allowed to have those? Why are you allowed to take cold showers? Wouldn't your understanding of 'life' be better if you gave up literally everything? How do you justify keeping the things you have chosen to keep?

Your entire thought process here seems like a slippery slope.

>>8879365
I've thought about this a lot.

There is no beauty in suffering. Suffering is shit, no matter how you slice it, if it TRULY is suffering and not just you releasing endorphins, then it is shit. There is no way you can make shit out to be not-shit. All these stupid philosophers trying to convince themselves "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger!!!1!!1!!" or other similar shit are just trying to cope. "All this terrible suffering I'm going through is actually GOOD, and all the non-suffering I go through is GOOD also, so haha I win no matter what, take that universe!". Suffering is suffering, and it absolutely fucking sucks, it is shit down to the fucking core with hope for comfort, and you should avoid it at all cost. Suffering will be shit, by definition, no matter what mental games you try to play with yourself.

Sleeping without a pillow is good for your health. Pretty sure so is sleeping without a bed. Its good for your back.

>>8879896
being in suffering while trying to avoid it can make the suffering even worse. it's like being gripped in the coils of a knot. struggle makes it tighter. try avoiding thinking about your most embarrassing moment. you can't avoid the thought because the very act of avoidance implies the existence of the thing to avoid, just like you can't avoid thinking of a purple elephant at this very moment.

on the other hand the greeks would view this struggle in the face of unchangeable fate as beautifully tragic. paradoxically, if one accepts one's suffering one refuses to multiply the suffering through avoiding it and ending up in the trap of an infinite recursion of suffering.

>>8879450

>Nietzsche. He had a hard-on for asceticism.

Are you serious?

Are you actually fucking serious?

Buy yourself a copy of On the Genealogy of Morals.

Read his essay, "What is the meaning of ascetic ideals?"

Realize that he LOATHED ascetism, and was at best suspicious of those who were drawn to it.

Realize you're a shitposting retard.

Then finally, stop shitposting on this fucking board.

Ascetism is terrible, as is hedonism/etc. Why is this stupid board so dualistic, and so drawn to extremes?

>>8879365
>no Holy Bible mentions yet
read Ecclesiastes first
then a Gospel, maybe Matthew

>>8879365
at first i was
>no usual opinion
let´s see
>basically a buddhism thread
so dissapointed.

>>8879365
Is this really "embracing suffering"? It sounds like you're trying to make your life hard, rather than healthy.
Not getting attached to material goods, taking cold showers and eating healthily are fantastic when combined with exercise, a stable and fun job, hobbies, and a good night's sleep.
Eating big portions of healthy food, exercising and making sure you're getting all your nutrients is great.
But that's my outlook, anyway. I hope that you find stability and peace of mind! God knows we're all looking for it

>>8879365
>beauty of suffering
you are a hypocrite
you see beauty in the hope of overcome suffering through this stupid types of suffering. you are so afraid as everybody else.

>tfw when they sell out even her spiritual improvement like a fucking corporation.

>>8879365
oh and since this is a weeabo site, pic related. sounds like you're running a japanese corporation at home now.

>>8879727
By this I mean all that life has to offer, not really its purpose.

>>8879882
I view life as everything, every molecule every atom. We are all one great being. Consciousness is a mirror and death is the shattering of that mirror. This leads to massive subjectivity, I decide how things are. I decide what is necessary and what isn't. I consider the sun as much alive and intelligent as you and I. This can be explained but that's also a lot of typing.
In a few years I will be flying up to Alaska to bike all the way down to Argentina, and if I reach that destination I am not too sure I will stop. I have no need to justify my choices because they are simply that, my choices.

>>8879962
Nothing I've done so far contradicts my view of a healthy life. Yes, it might make it more difficult (which I sort of want), but only so by cleansing myself of the anesthesia that is mediocrity. In contemporary society, everything is meant to be acquired with ease to balance the endless pursuit of happiness. There is no sense of accomplishment when buying a burger, but it is far more wonderful to grow fruits, vegetables, and hunt your own meat. This is not suffering, but it follows my goal (WHICH IS WHAT ALL YOU FAGGOTS HAVE BEEN MISUNDERSTANDING). I'm not saying that I'm suffering when I take a cold shower or eat healthy, I'm saying that I'm following the lifestyle that comes with embracing suffering by facing worthwhile difficulties.

>>8879976
When I say the beauty of love, I do not mean love itself but rather its effect. This is the same with suffering.
Of course I'm afraid, when did I deny that? I embrace suffering while flinching, but there is no shame in that.

Don't be so aggressive, man. Nobody's out to get you.

OP, you're going about this the wrong way. Suffering is an essential part of life, any ideology worth it's salt knows that. But suffering is a natural part of life. when you do these things just to make yourself suffer you aren't enlightening yourself, you aren't doing anything except making yourself uncomfortable so you can quasi-brag about it on the Internet.
you life will be filled with suffering, you don't have to pile it on yourself. Instead learn to grow from it it.

>>8880679
life has to offer the stuff you are eliminatig turkey

if you really want to suffer just move to africa and live in a hut
what you are doing right now is just mental masturbation with an easy copout

fucking white people i swear. avoiding food while my niggas in the thirds worlds begging for a meal

>>8880867
you have to go back

>>8879951
s-sorry

>>8880867
Africans aren't "your niggas", Tyrone.

>>8880867
>if you really want to suffer just move to africa and live in a hut
anon's right, you need more jesuits in this thread
spiritual exercises of ignatius loyola

>>8879951
Lmao

He's particularly attacking Christian asceticism in this text

But if you look at other works he promotes a different kind of asceticism , a greek type of asceticism which is all about self training and enhancing will to power

look up what askesis means in greek

read more

stop being a child

>>8880908

It's fine.

>>8881000

No, he attacks asceticism in general.

He particularly lays into Schopenhauer's asceticism, for example, which is far from Christian. Also Wagner's, and chastity in general.

Chastity/poverty/etc - in short, what we associate with asceticism- particularly when presented as 'virtues', all come under fire from Nietzsche.

>>8879472
>>8879365 (OP) #
Seneca- letters from a stoic, Letter XVIII

>>8879450
Lol someone read the book upside down

>>8881028
>No, he attacks asceticism in general.

He hates asceticism if it is based on otherworldly morality

He praises it if it is in the service of strength

>>8880829
I haven't started suffering yet. I phrased the OP very badly, I was just expressing ways I will eliminate irrelevancies.

>>8880836
Yeah I suppose, but that stuff prevents my experiencing other parts of life.

>>8881028
Wow, look at this loudmouthed nothing who knows nothing.

Read more of Nietzsche's writings and read them carefully. He praised a quiet life of moderation free from attachments and even riches as best for writers and thinkers.

He also heavily experimented with ascetic practices, diets, exercises, etc., in an attempt for better health.

This too will pass.

>>8882602
Also wanted to quote >>8879951 , where the loudmouthed stupidity of this poster is more apparent. The idiots on /lit/ need to GTFO.

>>8879365
>the importance of suffering


Ay lmao dude I do that everyday and yet I don't need to set any ideology with, you egocentric cunt.

Read siddharta and practice all the balance thing from buddhism. I once tried to eliminate as many tools as possible from my life just to realize after reading some book that humans are supposed to use tools.
Today I still aim for a not so comfortable life to enhances the small moments of comfort. I try to work until tired, live with as little money as possible and eat healthy/boring for most of the time. This way I feel right and when I choose to rest then my resting is much more enjoyable. Some people want to reduce their work as much as possible and doing this they dilute the quality of leisure/rest time. This is a recipe for depression. Humans are designed to work, any animal on this planet is designed to keep working until dead.
Also quit this nofap + coldshower fedoratier bullshit, it wont naturally increase your test levels.

As he says in Siddartha if you suffer today someday you will find peace but if you are in peace today eventually you will find suffering. Thats why under """"suffering""""" you get busy with hope and experiences no anxiety. Now try to leisure for 20 days straight to see what happens. You certainly experinces depression or at least minor anxiety.

>>8879375
>implying suffering

The only suffering you should experience is the suffering you feel when in the endless pursuit of your art, craft, or other goal that will define your worth. Suffer now, happy later. Bitch.

>>8883122
I'm a primitive living skills kind of dude, and while humans ARE meant to use tools, to live simply, a great emphasis should be placed on the level of technology of tools that you use. Try to have as little steps of manufacturing between your possessions as possible to live a self-sustainable life.

For example, look at something like a clay pot versus a computer. The clay pot can be made by a single person using common resources. The computer takes cooperation from countries around the world to produce. The less layers or steps your technology has to produce, the more simple and self-sustainable your life will be, simply because you will be able to better repair and produce the technology you use and will be less reliant on those around you.

Nofap is a joke but cold showers are badass and great for your skin. Had a terrible ringworm infection, turns out it was because of all the hot showers drying out my skin. Cold showers for a week + some tallow rubbed on it fixed it up like nothing.

>>8883180
My dry skin plagues me, def gonna try this tip. Merry Chris, Anon.

>>8883122
careful with hedonism through buddhism. the dhamma is
= the knowledge that praising pain and suffering is equally retarded to dwelling in sensual pleasures and opinions and property/personification (of whatever is experience)
=the knowledge that pleasures through jhanas are safe and indeed better
=the training to be good at jhanas and then get the above knowledge

pic related: great story about the value of suffering. movie was great too.

>>8882602
Nietzsches asceticism wasn't truly ascetic, when he enforces spartan living it's from the perspective of a doctor, not an orthodox monk.

>>8883122
>Humans are designed to work, any animal on this planet is designed to keep working until dead.
Pure ideology. People have evolved to be efficient which means less work. You're obsessed more with the product of your labor (or are seduced by what you can trade for your product) which alienates you from your labor itself.

>>8882602
Not the guy you're replying to, but would you mind posting a quote or something from his works that supports this?

>>8879437
found the real cuck

>>8879365
you're an insult to everyone who is actually suffering

fuck you

>>8879365
Not exactly suffering, but a big theme in Robert Walser's work is the value of submission and obedience, and of viewing yourself as small and insignificant. Jakob von Gunten and The Tanners are good for this (if you only read one, read Jakob, it's sums this particular idea best, though personally I prefer The Tanners)

>>8879365
Why do people always come here asking for books to confirm the viewpoint they already have?

What do you need a philosophy book for if you've already decided what your worldview is

>>8885139
Sorry

>>8885156
Thanks, I'll look into it

>>8885160
Good point, but I was planning on furthering my idea. Why do Christians go to church if they already believe in God?

Brave New World made me feel like that

The inherent value of life is not articulable.

You can understand stand it but to model it with words you have to choose aspects of it to take on

But that is contrary to the real purpose. The purpose is to look at it all as one thing.

To do that you need a long wavelength of thought, so to speak.

That means you need to clear your mind of the intensely concentrated stimulation that you are probably used to. You need to accustom yourself to having most of your thoughts over the span of many days or years instead within in the span of seconds or minutes.

The only problem is this truth is not communicable. You can only pick a piece of it and bring it back to share, carefully picking the people who will value it truly.

>>8885160
yep

>Why do Christians go to church if they already believe in God?
They don't believe, they constantly need it to be stamped into their brain otherwise they would just throw away their delusion

>>8885139
>>8885139
I disagree. OP is possibly trying to understand what it is like to live with very little/simply, maybe to understand or at the very least mimic what others who have no choice but to live with very little feel like. This is called austerity. Like others have said, Buddhist ideas play into this.

All in all, would you rather he be living lavishly and decadently?

"my life is without meaning or accomplishment so to explain this I make life unnecessarily painful"

"i'm not an Olympic runner so i went out and crippled my legs"

Seriously, 76 posts and no one mentions Thoreau?

>>8883553
>spartan living
Now you're quibbling over semantics like a little bitch. Call it Spartan, masochistic, ascetic, Nietzsche embraced suffering.

>>8883812
I would mind. Go read him yourself, you lazy bum. And merry christmas, too.

I guess OP just finished Crime and Punishment?

>>8879365

>>8879365
You think that's hard, try going a day without using your computer.

>>8885995
I went a month without my phone. Highly recommended. Only missed 2 calls and 8 text messages

>>8885913
I feel like I've been doing this for a while, but I'll try a different approach.

>>8885930
Weightless statement as it is, bud.

>>8885936
I'm not in the best of living conditions, but I won't go into it because there's always someone who thinks it's a competition.

>>8885940
I do not agree with this interpretation.

>>8885949
I was thinking the same.

>>8885995
>>8886028
I planned on doing it tomorrow, or today, rather (00:54).

>>8885995
>tfw this is impossible

>he isn't born a stoic
sucks to be you.

>>8886261
>he isn't rich enough to be a stoic
ftfy

>>8886264
>stoic is being rich
what a meme

>>8886268
>doesn't know the history of stoicism
what a meme

KEK at all you silly mortals having to deal with "suffering." Every fiber of my existence is goodness beyond your comprehension. I'd go into more, but I've been told that human beings aren't smart enough to comprehend it. ;)))

Anyways enjoy being self-aware specks of dust, maybe you can nobly fight against it, lolololololololololol gotta love that perpetual struggle, right? Hee hee!

Oh and Merry Christmas!

>>8886308
same desu

>>8886308
what a meme man.

Merry Christmas too.

>>8879365
Orthodox Christians are meant to cast two days a week for a reason. They have a lot of material on this stuff, originating from Greek stoics. Practises other churches lost and shunned.

Key things to look up:
Apathea
Hesychasts - very good
Theosis
The ladder of divine ascent

God can only be spoken in terms of what he is not. By purifying ourselves through sophrosyne we draw closer to him.

>>8886774

Fast* not cast

florin calmeaza-te

>reads neetshee once

Reminder that trying to hype some suffering will not get you babes

Take the middle way OP

tldr, ascetisism works or not?

>>8887498
Fucking hell, give me a name.

>>8882602

>He praised a quiet life of moderation free from attachments and even riches as best for writers and thinkers.
>Reads "Why I am so Clever"/etc once, and doesn't appreciate the irony

Nietzsche praises the quiet life of moderation/etc with respect to HIMSELF. He does not prescribe them as a one-size-fits-all panacea. Look at the titles: "Why *I* am..."/etc. He's saying what works for him. He does not entitle them "How to be so Clever"/etc.

Similarly, in the Genealogy of Morals, he notes that poverty/chastity/etc are not 'virtues' - but merely the conditions in which a large part of philosophy has thus far come to be. They are not prerequisites for philosophy per se, but only a specific type.

>He also heavily experimented with ascetic practices, diets, exercises, etc., in an attempt for better health.
>in an attempt for better health

Which is NOT what asceticism/etc is about. More to the point, asceticism is almost invariably HARMFUL to one's health - from a physiological point of view, if nothing else. This is highly significant with respect to Nietzsche, who did not believe in seeing the physiological/psychological as totally distinct Cartesian dualities à la body/soul and so on - but that they were one in the same, completely interdependent.

Nietzsche's experiments with diets/exercise/etc were nothing more than what they appear to be - attempts to obtain better health, rather than spiritual/philosophical ascetic practices. This comes as no surprise when you realize how shit his health was.

>>8887498
>flat chest
>bad teeth
>no hips

I'll stick with my suffering, thanks.

>>8887565
check on tv, carmella something

>>8879365
Sleeping on the floor is actually healthy.

>>8887640

The real redpill is sleeping on your front with your face against the cushion.

>>8887498

>Wearing pants so high that her belly button is not visible

Into the trash she goes

>>8887651

The only two circumstances in which it is acceptable, or at least understandable, to go out drinking with someone of the same sex, is if you're a homosexual or if you're acting as one another's wingman to pick up girls.

I slept on a pallet made of dirty clothes for over a year. All it did was mess my right shoulder up. It didn't change me, I was still an arrogant moron.

External suffering is the major impetus to learning. Self-imposed suffering is an onanistic indulgence.

>>8887582
Do you think I don't know everything you just said?

see >>8885955
what you're talking about is very applicable to the OP.

>>8887858

>Do you think I don't know everything you just said?

You have 10 seconds to get off my board.

OP is an example of a weak will. Try to embrace and grow on real suffering instead of self-inflicted suffering.

>>8879365
Going spartan is hardly suffering. Suffering can never really be forced.

>>8879365

>>8883170
Is it true that art can only be good if done by a suffering artist?

Like a painter who's living on the streets, or a writer who's got a terminal illness, or something along those lines?

>>8890026
It's not a rule, more like a trend.

I think it's because artists are more likely to focus on their art as they suffer, and they're emotionally disturbed enough to create something "different", as opposed to the well-to-do artist who lives an average life. The former has more experience and depends on his art, through suffering he might have even "developed" an unique point of view. The latter lives a boring life void of unique experiences, he's average in every way, and so he has nothing new to say.

>>8886227
>i want to make 1 of several dice float?

>>8879365
>>8879365

>Can you recommend any books, philosophers, etc. that touch this topic?

Read the New Testament, OP. It's what you're searching for.

>>8879670

if ur scared of muh irrelevance what does that make u

>>8879951

Was it autism?

>>8879365
I agree,

To stand up for your ideas, actions, to help others and to stop going with the easy way out, even if it means hard work , being ridiculed and having an overall less enjoyable life; that is true suffering and the one you should seek.

How many people abandon their parents or put them in a home when they're old and sick? Taking on the challenge to care and provide for another person that dedicated their life to raise you, for the sake of their happiness instead of yours, that is a good example of true suffering that many dismiss nowadays.

Telling yourself that you suffer just because you eat healthy, don't sleep on a bed or gave away your Nintendo 64 is nothing but narcissism

>>8890386

You don't know shit about suffering, or caring for a parent for that matter. I grew up with a sick mother and I was constantly praying for her death so that her suffering would stop. In my selfish moments I prayed so that I wouldn't have to take care of her for the rest of my life.

Taking care of your parents is not the romantic "Here's your tea I make you once every two weeks". It's constant work, it's constant emotional stress, often with no reciprocation but hostility. It's seeing your future in your parent, the sickness, the expiration, the shortsightedness of old age. Tell

All these bitches talking about suffering because they take cold showers and call ma' once in the blue moon. Your quest for suffering is the proof that you don't know what suffering is. You bought into the Dostoyevski meme thinking it's a virtuos. It's not. It's unauthentic and fake in your case.

>>8890646
damn, good post anon

I'm sick of all these pretentious idealistic fags talking about how suffering is so fucking awesome. Tell that to hungry Africans, homeless people, incest-raped/abused children, etc. You guys don't know the meaning of suffering.

>>8890646
Possibly you didn't learn as much as you're assuming you did. And I'm not at all trying to put you down, but what you're describing is not uncommon. In my experience, when you go through these sorts of things, your depression and sense of pointlessness and hopelessness eventually becomes so great, that you sort of give up and concede ultimate defeat and stop caring about your suffering altogether. At some point after that, maybe many years after living with that constantly, that feeling always with you so deeply it's in your bones, then you sort of rise from the grave and are reborn. Which sounds like total bullshit I'm sure, but that's my subjective impression of what happened to me. That's not a putdown, and much more to the point, it's not bragging. Because our egos like to imagine they've suffered more than others have, and it leads to inner boasting and pride, a perversely inverted form of vanity, and the opposite of empathy.

>>8890911
damn, good post anon

I'm sick of all these pretentious idealistic fags talking about how being happy is so fucking awesome. Tell that to professional athletes, billionaires, celebrities etc. You guys don't know the meaning of happiness.

>>8892125
Makes no sense. You seem kinda butthurt. Are you OK?