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/lit/ - Literature

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11496514 No.11496514 [Reply] [Original]

>all state authority must be abolished
>dont forget to vote hillary btw

Should you separate an author from his/her work, or are they as a person an integral part of their work?

>> No.11496525

look at his weak as defense of "lesser evil voting" which he refuses to elaborate on or defend.

This is someone who redditards and undergrads laud as "the worlds foremost intellectual"

https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/

>> No.11496526

Chomsky is just another IYI with no skin in the game. He's a fraud.

>> No.11496536

>>11496514
The author is not an author until the work and the work is not a work until it is authored. This does not mean that they are one, since the same author can write multiple texts whereas a text stands in singularity depending on the preknowledge of its reader.

>> No.11496572

If an author sets a strong moral code in his work, and then doesn't follow it himself, that man is a hypocrite.

>> No.11496585

>>11496514
Accelerationism tho

>> No.11496590

gnome chumpsky is not my intellectual

>> No.11496592

>>11496514
>i am an anarchist
>people should pay more tax
chomsky is a fucking hack

>> No.11496594

>>11496514
>Should you separate an author from his/her work
No.

>> No.11496600

>>11496526
based

>> No.11496610

>>11496514
The only thing that pisses him off more than not voting for comfy mainstream Democrats is those vicious lies about our friends in Cambodia.

>> No.11496615

>>11496514
His work in the fields of computer science and linguistics is good though.

>> No.11496649

>>11496514
>Clinton's bombing of Al-Sharifa was as bad or worse than 9/11
>vote for Clinton

>> No.11496683

>>11496615
what major work has he done in the last ten years for linguistics?

none? he is still riding high from his very mediocre syntactic structures article 50 fucking years ago? oh wow that's embarrassing

>> No.11496694

Trump was a far worse canidate than Hillary.
But you are write as epic anarchist we should just burn down society and rise anew, like an epic libertarian socialist phoenix. Making practical decisions is for libtards.

>> No.11496703

id love to see how far making ideal choices gets you retards

>> No.11496706

>>11496694
not based and not redpilled

>> No.11496727

>>11496694
you're right if hiliary won we would be in tpp and economy would be really good and america would win again yes

>> No.11496730

>>11496694
posts like this make me so happy that i voted for trump

>> No.11496733

>>11496694
fuck you snowflake /lit/ is a pro-trump board!

>> No.11496897

>>11496727
Yeah, trump is really sticking it to the neolibs. Fuck you business, our economy is winning, we've got more appartment complexes, less bullshit regulations protecting the water soil and air jews, our based new supereme court will ensure that tyranical unions and public land is illegal, fuck the TPP when we can have epic privatization and growth like Brazil or Indonesia all by ourselves. Feels good to win.
>>11496730
At least you have happy, that's all that matters.

>> No.11496920
File: 9 KB, 235x214, 32412.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11496920

Can anyone tell me why they're trying so hard to take away our guns?

99.999% of gun owners aren't gonna shoot up anything but a deer or a metal plate on a range.

>> No.11496928

>>11496920
there is no logic to the mental illness that is liberalism

>> No.11496941

>>11496928
Woah, normally I have to go to /b/ to find deep insights like this.

>> No.11496952

YOU CANNOT SEPARATE A MAN AND HIS WORK
THERE IS NO SEPARATION
THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME

HOW HE IS OUTSIDE OF HIS ART IS HOW HE IS, IT'S A PART OF HIS WORK, IT'S AN EXTENSION OF IT, OR THE WORK IS AN EXTENSION OF HIM

IF THAT MAN IS A HYPOCRITE, THEN UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE READING THE WORK OF A MAN WHO IS A HYPOCRITE, BUT THIS DOESN'T MEAN THE WORK ITSELF IS HYPOCRITICAL, JUST THAT IT WAS BIRTHED THROUGH HYPOCRISY

THERE IS NOT AND CAN NEVER BE A SEPERATION

>> No.11496953

>>11496920
They might give you ideas and make you insubordinate.

>> No.11496956

>>11496952
As an anti-capitalist I refuse to read this.

>> No.11496957

>>11496941
fuck off back there then scum

>>>/b/eddit

>> No.11496965

>>11496957
That's what I was telling you to do dummy

>> No.11496966

>>11496956
WHAT DOES ANTI-CAPITALISM HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING IN MY POST? I'M ANTI CAPITALISM VIA ACCELERATION OF CAPITALISM

>> No.11496973

>>11496941
>admitting to going to /b/
Yep, it’s a noamtard

>> No.11496976
File: 53 KB, 645x773, zachqwe1o4w01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11496976

>>11496966
>Types in all caps
>Claims to be an anti-capitalist
Wew lad
>Acceleration
Cringe
>Acceleration is anti-capitalist
Pic related

>> No.11496991

>>11496526
I have trouble believing any employee of a prestigious university can be truly radical, but that doesn't mean they can't be insightful.

>> No.11497002

>>11496976
>HE'S NOT AN ILLEGALIST FATALIST-DETERMINIST CRYPTO-ANARCHIST ROMANTICIST ACCELERATIONIST LIBERTINE

LMAO YOU'RE A FUCKING EMBARASSMENT

>> No.11497013

>>11496514
>>11496525
>spending the time to vote could mean the difference between a family getting or not getting food, even if the candidate is apart of the problem overall
>epic 4chan high schoolers who totally get the world don't see what difference it makes

>> No.11497021

>>11497013
YOU VOTE WHETHER IT GOES IN DRY OR WITH SPITTLE AS LUBRICATION

>> No.11497063

>>11497013
>I can't argue a point so everyone who disagrees with me is *derogatory stereotype*
so this is the power of the tolerant left...huh

>> No.11497083

>>11497013
congratulations this is the dumbest post I've read today

>> No.11497141

>>11496514
>letting good being the enemy of perfect
Someone explain to me how does not voting lead to the collapse of the State. If less than half of the population don't to vote, does the State collapse?

>Not voting for Trump for the accelerationism

>> No.11497148

>>11497141
>don't to vote
vote

>> No.11497301

>>11496514
Why he looks like Olavo de Carvalho

>> No.11497343

>>11496526
>no skin in the game
wew calm down there taleb

>> No.11497382

It's almost like that academics are just elite's propagandists.

>> No.11497393

>>11496920
Most guns aren't owned by 90% of gun owners, but by a relatively small set of gun nuts - these are disproportionately responsible for violent crimes.

>> No.11497430

>>11496920
A disarmed populace is a pliable citizenry.

>> No.11497443

>>11497393
That's patently incorrect. The most violent sub-set of society which commits the vast majority of shootings primarily use illegally obtained firearms.

>> No.11497453

>>11497443
interesting, what demographic would most of these violent crime perpetrators be, pray tell?

>> No.11497455

>>11497453
Male, sub-average IQ, economically illiterate and academically impoverished.

>> No.11497463

>>11497430
Americlaps are armed and are still a pliable citizenry with no backbone.

>> No.11497467

>>11497455
Yes yes and what about their "cultural" background?

>> No.11497470

>>11497467
there them niggerz xD

>> No.11497487

>>11497467
They tend to resemble your parents in regards to melanin density.

>> No.11497499

>>11497463
that's cuz we dumb af my nigga

>> No.11497519

>>11497430
The US is already pliable and gun owners in the US are extremely unwilling to try to revolt and even if they did would be awful at trying to build a new system of government.

>> No.11497525

>>11497519
What evidence do you have for this incredibly ignorant and fantastical claim you're making?

>> No.11497527

>>11497443
Illegally obtained firearms are mostly re-sold legally obtained firearms.

>> No.11497528

>>11496514
He didn't support Hillary, though. He just thought she was the lesser of two evils, which is quite plausible.

>> No.11497538

Don't give up your guns lest you end up like this fucking miserable island of "Great" Britain. We're prisoners here and we can never go home.

State enforced diversity programs will render your capital cities third world shortly thereafter.

This nation is a ruin. God help us all.

>> No.11497554

>>11497527
Right. Illegally obtained firearms.

Retard.

>> No.11497556

>>11497525
The simple fact that there hasn't been an armed revolution in the US. When will it happen? The government kicks in doors of enough of its citizens for terrible reasons without a peep. And who in the gun owners will write the laws when the state is overthrown? The epic Nazi larpers that talk about "the day of the rope" and their "rightwing death squads"? The libertarians? The gun owning commies? Whatever revolution happens in the US by the vague group "gun owners" is already plagued by being extremely diverse ideologically.

>> No.11497568

>>11497538
Kill a cop and take his guns if you're so worried about its direction. No state is devoid of arms. If you're not willing to do that then why do you think you'd have been willing to do it if they were legal?

>> No.11497582

>>11497528
if you could read he advocated voting for her
see>>11496525


>>11497554
filtered

>> No.11497583

>>11497556
The rest of the western world was disarmed without even the slightest tremble from the populace. This is shameful. Deeply shameful. And you are projecting onto Americans the repressed nature of that shame, as you cannot imagine a country where people might be free to exercise self defense or free speech. The fact there hasn't been an armed insurrectionist revolution is testament to the awesome power of freedom of speech, and the importance of the second amendment which defends it.

>> No.11497598

>>11497583
I live in the US and own several guns

>> No.11497610

>>11497598
Perhaps you're just very stupid. It's quite possible.

Consider this the next time you conflate the act of armed insurrection with that of the peaceful Reformism permitted under the Constitution.

>> No.11497630

>>11497568
A cop? What would be the use of that then? Masochism? If I wanted to go that route, it certainly wouldn't be a cop.

But let me get this straight, are you saying whether guns are illegal or not makes no difference? Oh, no, wait, you're saying other people wouldn't have, and that the general atmosphere wouldn't be altered at all? So in some way you kind of are saying it makes no difference whether people own guns or not, right? Am I right in saying that? Lol, try again

>> No.11497635

>>11496514

No. If even he/she doesn't follow own teachings, how could others?

>> No.11497672

>>11496733
Go back to /pol/ you fucking retarded, bootlicking scum. Jesus Christ you are worse than a pseud - a fucking /pol/bred /b/tard who left /pol/ because it's boring and got old, and then who fled /b/ because you can't out-degenerate pedophiles, you fucking mongoloid mutant. Now you try to pop up like an encapsulated gadfly larva on /lit/ and shout like a deaf, dystrophied 12-year-old. You'll get the bullet or btfo back to whatever sad, incel cave of lead-poisoned pigeons from which you came. It's not even that you chose to vote for Trump - a TV-cartoon neocon any animal with half a brain inherently recognizes as a facsimile of real success and power - over Hillary - a mechanical product of over 60 years of industrialized managerial liberalism brought to the world stage as if a commodity of "progress" or "diversity" or even what your underread, overfed "mind" considers "feminism" - it's that you think you can even ATTEMPT to speak for an entire board that at least has read enough actual books to see what a FUCKING BAD JOKE IT WOULD BE TO ELECT DONALD J. TRUMP, HOST OF CELEBRITY MOTHERFUCKING APPRENTICE, YOU MOTHERFUCKING TV-LOVING MORON. Go watch a commercial and pull your deformed 3 inches to BangBros, you fucking normie loser.
>inb4 tl;dr: big surprise, I bet your picture books are great
>inb4 b-but Killary: but nothing, don't vote, retard
>inb4 b-but not voting doesn't stop elections: yeah but when someone points a gun at you and asks if you want it in the chest or face, asking for one or the other just makes you THE KEKED BITCH
>inb4 triggered much, libtard: your mother was a rape-victim, and you masturbate to her sucking her rapist's cock in Hell

>> No.11497681

>>11496526
CNF, plen

>> No.11497833

>>11497672
Tell us how you really feel, anon.

>> No.11497840

>>11497672
>>11496733
Trump is a Zionist

>> No.11497851

>>11497672
the impotent rage of the average liberal on display here for all to see.

I for one never tire of it.

>> No.11497909

>>11497582
>The left should devote the minimum of time necessary to exercise the LEV choice then immediately return to pursuing goals which are not timed to the national electoral cycle.
How is this advocating?

>> No.11497981

>>11497909
I VOTED FOR TRUMP OKAY!!!!!! I'm tired of all these nerds bullying me.

>> No.11498010

>>11497430
>not owning weapons
>citizens
People who don't own weapons are peasants.

>> No.11498022

>>11497909
>The left should devote the minimum of time necessary to exercise the LEV choice
I know you are retarded but are you that fucking stupid you need me to explain to you? the above is "academic talk" that translates to "vote for killary"

chumpsky is a fraud

>> No.11498037

>>11498022
>"vote for killary"
That has never in doubt, but choosing the lesser evil is not any form of advocating. Hell you can choose Trump if you believe him to be the lesser evil (although Chomsky himself doesn't)

>> No.11498048

>>11498037
>That has never in doubt, but choosing the lesser evil is not any form of advocating.
then why publish the essay right before the election retard?

>> No.11498061

>>11498048
To argue that trump is the greater evil and we should vote against him.(which was true, sorry about your feelings)

>> No.11498062

>>11497851
>"Average liberal"
You herd-following fool - did you not read the post? Of course not. You couldn't be bothered to speak for yourself, let alone read or think for yourself. Pick up a book, you parrotmocking simpleton, relying on the false dichotomy of "liberal" and "conservative" as if it buffers you from the responsibility of accepting your true nature: a docile animal whose suppressed, angry, ignorant energy has been harnessed by a creation of Viacom and GE. You are no different in anything other than the label of PID than a dogmatic devotee of the Democratic party. You will never undue the infected impotency of your emasculation at the hands of a struggling class of capitalist con-men. They beg like the profligate mendicanta of a dying religion for the very food out of your mouth, and you pay to pre-chew their sacrament through tears of submissive, masochistic joy.

>> No.11498071

>>11498048
Hmmmmmm, it is almost as if an essay about the validity of choosing the lesser evil is meant to convince people to choose the lesser evil...

>> No.11498073

>>11497840
Exactly, observant. Another shill for the status quo order of control.

>> No.11498087

>>11498061
>>11498071
>He didn't say vote for hillary
>ok he did but he only said it cuz DRUMPF!!!
youre both as pathetic as him. go back to your communal undergrad bathrooms and jerk yourself off in shame.

>> No.11498103

>>11498087
He did say vote for Hillary, that's the whole point of voting (vote) for the lesser evil(for Hillary). This doesn't mean he likes Hillary, only that he likes Hillary better than trump. If you can't understand this line of reasoning you are a literal brainlet.

>> No.11498116

>>11498087
>He didn't say vote for hillary
>ok he did but he only said it cuz DRUMPF!!!
But that is exactly the point of his essay, greentexting it doesn't undermine it. Also is this babby's first election? Do you not know that protest vote is a thing?

>> No.11498132

>>11498103
>spends last 60 years of his life preaching democracy is evil and neoliberalism is the worst facet of it!
>"but everyone make sure you go out and vote for the literal embodiment of neoliberalism this November because the man who opposes her and stands the best chance at damaging the neoliberal world order is orange and said mean things about brown people
I'm the brainlet? hah!

>> No.11498159

>>11498132
What makes you think Chomsky prefers whatever post-neoliberal world order Trump is building?

>> No.11498171

>>11498159
trump is building nothing retard, all he does is break everything he touches.

>> No.11498175

>>11498132
>Trump is damaging the neoliberal world order
Lmao. You actually belived his gibberish campaign rhetoric. Take a look at his policies brainlet. Trump is a super neoliberal who happens to be riding a wave of nationalist populism. All his policies are super neoliberal just AMERICA FIRST.
I can't believe you think America virtually adopting a sinobrazilian political economy is a challenge to neoliberalism. You really are a brainlet

>> No.11498183

>>11498171
>implying Trump is building an isolationist USA
Okay then let me rephrase then. What makes you think Chomsky prefers the ruins of a post-neoliberal world order?

>> No.11498234

>>11498183
chomsky will complain no matter what I don't give a fig what sort of fantastical anarcho-commune he would "prefer"

>>11498175
I'm sorry this is too dumb for me to seriously respond to.

>> No.11498250

>>11498132
And let's not forget that Chomsky correctly recognizes that trumps climate change denial and other associated evils and retardations make killary look like a hero in comparison.

>> No.11498270

>>11498234
The trump administration is actively letting Americans business treat America like Brazil let's Chinese business treat brazil.

>> No.11498278

>>11496514
No one has identified the major flaw with this whole faggot thread:
>"all state authority must be abolished"
>state authority =/= legitimate power
>Chomsky: "all illegitimate structures of power should be demolished"

>> No.11498290

>>11498270
Again sir I cannot in good faith argue with you. It would be like Muhammad Ali in his prime beating up a 5 year old girl with cerebral palsy and downs syndrome. I bid you good day and hope you can take solace in another "victory"

now please stop baiting me with what I hope aren't genuine opinions or beliefs

>> No.11498356

>>11498290
That's exactly what the trump administration is doing. His usda, blm, epa, Dept of interior, ect are all a neoliberal nightmare complete with all the illiberal bs neoliberals enjoy like subsides. Opening up the contental shelf and other public lands for exploitation should prove this without a doubt. And let's not forget about trumps courts which have effectively made unions illegal, you think an anarcho syndicalist like chomsky would vote for that? GTFO out of here brainlet, you can't prove me wrong.

>> No.11498370

>>11496703
>criticize a view chomsky has that directly opposes another opinion he expressed
>ha you guys are dumb for having that principle
low reading cromprehension

>> No.11498484

>>11498278
Trump won legitimately.

>> No.11498499

>>11498356
listen up retard you might learn something, Trump doesn't tell those people what to do, those people, the secretary of the EPA or the Sec of Interior or all those other former lobbyists, those are conservative/libertarian grifters who signed on to make a quick buck. Neo-liberalism is about making unfettered capitalism work on a global scale among relatively social representative democracies for an extended period of time. Libertarianism on the other hand is a short jump away from the dream world of no god's no masters that Chomsky jerks off too when he closes his eyes.

>> No.11498566

>>11498499
Reguardless of ideaological underpinnings, what is happening is identical to neoliberal corporate state bueracracy with the caveat of 'America first' polices. Functionally this is America first neoliberalism, which is exactly what I said from the get go.
Trump made all the appointments so voting for him is what gave us this. Don't act like this is just some contingency, these are the policies trump always implied when he was running.
Neoliberalism is primarily about one thing under all the rhetoric and that is privatization and privatized democracy.
As a libertarian in line with Chomsky calling those administrators libertarian in the same sense is a fucking joke, private property liberterians are not liberterians at all.

>> No.11498627

>>11498566
...you didn't learn

>> No.11498649

>>11498627
I learned that you are definitely a brainlet like I suspected from the get go. Cope harder neoliberal trumplet

>> No.11498662

>>11498627
>. . . You didn't learn
Ftfy, further evidence you are a brainlet

>> No.11498668

>>11496694
>Trump was a far worse canidate than Hillary.

What are you talking about? It's been over 2 years, and he hasn't even started a war yet.

Hillary managed to start a war without even being President.

>> No.11498696

>>11497013
TRUMP GON TAKE DA FOOD AWAY

>> No.11498738

>>11498696
If you mean by not just allowing but subsidizing private power to destory our surface water, ground water, and soil, as well as ruin our oceans while doing nothing about the rapidly changing climate except make things worse, then you are right this will inevitably result in widespread famine that would not have been so bad if trump was never elected.
But hey at least we btfo those smelly beaners, kek!
fuck yourself.

>> No.11498789

>>11498484
... You are legitimately retarded. That's not what the post meant in any way, and you would know if you had ever read Chomsky. I'm not even a fan of him, but at I've read his work, you pseud.

>> No.11498828

>>11498370
you live in this world and have to make appropriate decisions

that doesnt mean you turn your brain off and stop thinking

>> No.11499638

>>11498499
Take a civics course. The cabinet serves at the pleasure of the president. The heads of the administrative agencies are also serving at the pleasure of the president. All of these are appointed by the president.

>> No.11499644

some of my favorite directors come off like absolute morons in conversation/interviews

I've found authors to mostly be immune from this

>> No.11500511

>>11498234
>what I don't give a fig what sort of fantastical anarcho-commune he would "prefer"
Then why are you posting in this thread then other than to bitch?

>> No.11500525

He's an idiot in that he should've supported Stein. I don't understand this stupid belief people have that their 1 vote changes anything. It doesn't, if you don't show up nothing changes. Just vote for your ideals, there's no more to it. Unless you command insane power to actually alter the election that is.

>> No.11500526

“No one has been empirically wrong more than Chomsky.”

t.Zizek

>> No.11500535

>>11500525
>voting stein

did u watch that episode of democracy now! when amy goodman sees the video of jill stein sitting next to manafort at a banquet attended by putin in russia and almost chokes on her spit lmao

>> No.11500550

>>11500526
>btw dont forget to vote trump
Zizek is on an equal level of tard.

>> No.11500723

>>11500550
>not understanding that the accelerationism is already radicalizing the proles

S o y bean farmers already turning on the GOP due to trade wars forcing the PRC to buy in Brazil et c

>> No.11500806

>>11496514
My rule of thumb is to take into the context of a work the acts of author within the timeframe of 7 years (ie. 4 years before and 3 years after publishing any given book). People do change over time so the author stays the same - under the influence of the ideas they've written - only for a definite amount of time.
I hope to avoid the pitfall of comparing someone's early works to their 80 yo self or the reverse.

>> No.11500860

>>11500525
>I don't understand this stupid belief people have that their 1 vote changes anything.

Chomsky is a man that people listen to, and voting for Hilary and avocation others do the same had real potential to swing the election away from Trump.

Chomsky is great because of how practical minded he is. Nobody here seems to be able to explain what exactly the hell not voting and hence letting Trump win is actually supposed to achieve, and so actively demonstrate their lack of real, substantial criticism against Chomsky. Hell, the shear patheticness of even the best arguments against him actively demonstrates the value of his positions.

>> No.11500912

>>11500860
Managerial neo-liberalism is unstable enough at present to be toppled.
If Clinton, Queen Neolib, had won, she might have managed that instability, however with Trump that instability can only deepen.
That's good for people who don't want the world to continue in the neoliberal order.
That's anyone outside of the political relative-center. Which is 85% of people in all classes.
Rich people, poor people, neets, working families, left wing and right, all want off the neoliberal ennui

>> No.11500934
File: 176 KB, 900x471, 1525214293670.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11500934

SO YOU SAYIN *garbles gravel in the back of his throat* THAT WE *coughs up glacial ice* WE WUZ *burps volcanic ash* WE WUZ MANUFACTURED CONSENT?

fuck gnome chumpskies fucking meme vocal fry fucking old fag

bet he thinks he sounds so cool but he sounds like the voice actor of a fucking volcano

>> No.11500935

>the ideal

>the pragmatic

how dare you not connect these immediately?!?!

>> No.11500980

>>11496514
No I completely ignored him forever after he endorsed neo-liberal politics

He's a faggot and a hack

>> No.11501850

Chomsky is a literal idiot, but he has a lot of good quotes that I exploit for my own political arguments.

>> No.11503147

Anarchism means the state should ban guns!

>> No.11503925

>>11497672
I feel for you mate. I don't think many people realise that basically all nobel laureates in the field of economics that are alive basically endorsed Hillary. I'm not saying I like Hillary, but I am saying that voting for Trump is was a mistake.

>> No.11503928

>>11498010
>peasants
>a class of people who were legally obliged to buy weapons

>> No.11503941

>>11496952
There is no free work so there are no free men.

>> No.11503964

>>11503941
>THERE IS NO FREE WORK

>> No.11504135

>>11503964
Show me any form of employment which is not tied to the monetary system.

>> No.11504173
File: 105 KB, 645x729, 190.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11504173

>>11504135
>THERE ARE NO FREE MEN

>> No.11504181

>>11504135
WWOOF

>> No.11504188

>>11504181
woof?

>> No.11504199

>>11500723
yeah but will the ßoya farmers turning omon the GOP make the cerrado come back ?. fuck accelerationidt are so retarfed

>> No.11504267

Those two positions are consistent. The anarchist position, which is that state authority should be abolished, can't be accomplished or maintained by a revolution. As Marxists know, revolutions are inherently authoritarian. If anarchists manage to achieve their utopia in some territory, they have no military and thus no means to defend their utopia from imperialists. Anarchists can only be reformists, because their whole liberal ideal of minimization of authority runs counter to any revolutionary attempt to overthrow a currently existing authority, since any revolutionary attempt will itself have to be an authority. Anarchists like Chomsky have no other strategy to turn to than progressive, incremental reformism by way of grassroots activism. Good luck with that, I say.

>> No.11504279

>>11498132
>I'm the brainlet? hah!

>> No.11504632

>>11496572
Doesn't matter.