Tertullian's Apology megathread

[Anonymous No.11861782]

1/4

CHAPTER XXIII.

CONCERNING THE SUBJECTION OF EVIL SPIRITS TO THE COMMAND OF CHRISTIANS.

MOREOVER, if magicians do set before your eyes a scene of spectres, and, by their black arts, or direful forms in necromancy, call up the souls of the dead ; if they throw children into convulsions, and a while after make them vent the fury in oracles; if by their juggling wiles they delude the senses with abundance of mock miracles, and inject dreams in the dead of sleep, by first invoking the assistance of their angels and demons, by whose sophistry even goats and groaning boards are wont to divine: if then these evil spirits will do so much at the impulse of men, what will they not do by their own impulse, and for their own interest ? They will surely collect the whole stock of malicious power into one effort for the defence of themselves and the kingdom of darkness. Or if angels and demons act the same with your gods, pray where is the difference between them and Him you look upon as the Sovereign and supremest of powers? Is it not therefore more becoming to presume those to be gods, who do the things which make others pass for gods, than to bring down the gods to a level with demons ? But perhaps I am to think that it is the difference of places only which causes the distinction of titles, and that your gods are to be looked upon as gods only in their own temples, and he who flies through a sacred turret is begodded; but he who passes through a common house, bedeviled. Or that the priest who cuts off his privities, or lances his arms, is inspired; but he who cuts his throat, possessed; however, the fury of both has a like event, and the instigation is the same.

Hitherto I have argued upon point of reason, and contented myself with words only; I come now to things, and shall give you a demonstration from fact to convince you that your gods and demons both are but the same beings, though of different denominations. Let a demoniac therefore be brought into court, and the spirit which possesses him be commanded by any Christian to declare what he is, he shall confess himself as truly to be a devil as he did falsely before profess himself a god. In like manner, let one of those be produced, who is thought to labour with a god, whom he conceived from the steams of the altar, and of which after many a belch and many a pang he is delivered in oracles. Let the celestial virgin, the great procurer of rain, or Aesculapius, the great improver of medicine, who by the help of scordian, and other sovereign and cordial medicines, recovered those who could not have lived a day longer.

[Anonymous No.11861784]

2/4

If all these, I say, do not declare themselves in court to be devils, not daring to lie in the presence of a Christian, that Christian is willing to be taken for the cheat, and stands ready to answer for it with his own blood. What now can be more glaringly evident than this demonstration from fact? What proof more unexceptionable? Here you have truth shining full upon you in her native simplicity, without the colouring of words, or any assistance but from her own proper virtue; suspicion itself here will find no entrance. You may say this is done by magic or some such sophistry, if your eyes and ears will give you leave to say it; but what can be objected against that which is exposed in its pure naturals, against mere naked truth? Moreover, if on one hand they are really gods, why should they be such silly liars as to say they are devils? What, in obedience to us? Your gods then are in subjection to Christians; but that surely is a very sorry god which is subject to a man, and to a man too who is his professed enemy, and when such a subjection makes so much to his disgrace.

On the other hand, if they are demons or angels, how comes it to pass that they personate gods, when they give their responses to any but Christians? For as those who have the reputation of gods would not say they are devils if they are truly gods, because they would not divest themselves of their majesty, so those you know to be demons durst never aspire to the titles of gods if there were any gods of those titles they usurp, because no doubt they would be afraid of smarting for that usurpation from those superior deities they have thus affronted.
The consequence therefore is undeniable, that the deities you worship are no deities; for if they were, the devils would never presume to lay claim to the title of gods, or the gods disclaim it. Since therefore both one and the other concur to the acknowledg-ment of this truth, that the gods in worship are no gods, you must confess them to be all of the same kind, that is devils. Bethink yourselves now, and examine the gods on every side. For those you presumed to be gods you plainly see to be devils; and by the help of Christians, and by the help of your very gods, not only confessing themselves, but all the rest also not to be gods, you will presently learn which is the true God; whether it is He, and He alone whom the Christians profess, and whether He is to be believed and worshipped, according to the Christian rule of faith and worship. When we conjure these evil spirits in the name of Christ, let them reply if they dare, “Who is this Christ with His fable of a gospel?” Let them say that He is of the common order of men; or will they call Him a magician? Or say that after He was buried, His disciples came and stole away His body out of the sepulchre, or that He is yet among the dead?

[Anonymous No.11861793]

3/4

Or rather will they not own Him to be in heaven, and that He will come down from thence, and put the whole universe in a tremor at His coming, and all mankind, but Christians, into horror and lamentation? Shining in His native glory, as He is the power of God, and the Spirit of God, and the Logos, and the Wisdom, and the Reason, and the Son of God. Let the devils keep their votaries company in derision, and join you with their wit and drollery upon these things. Let them deny that Christ will come in judgment upon every soul from the creation, having first restored its body. Let them declare, and in open court if they think fit, that they are of a mind with Plato and the poets, that it is the lot of Minos and Rhadamanthus to be judges of the world. Let them wipe off the brand of their own ignominy and damnation. Let them renounce themselves to be unclean spirits, though this is evident from the nature of their food, from the blood, and stenches, and putrid sacrifices of animals, and the abominable forms made use of in divination. And lastly, let them disown themselves to be in a damned state, and under dreadful expectations of the final judgment, where they shall receive the recompense of sins, together with their worshippers, and all such workers of iniquity.

But now this power and dominion of ours over these wicked spirits has all its efficacy from the name of Christ, and from our reminding them of those judgments which are dropping upon their heads from the hand of God through Christ, whom He has made Judge of the world; and the dread they have of Christ in God, and God in Christ, is the thing which subjects them to the servants of God and Christ. Thus therefore by a touch of our hand, or the breath of our mouth, scorched as it were with the prospect and repre-sentation of future flames, they go out of the bodies they possess at our command, but sore against their will, and gnashing and red- hot with shame, to quit their possessions in the presence of their adorers.

Now then let me advise you to believe the devils when they speak true of themselves, you who are used to credit them in their lies; for no man is a fool to such a degree as to be at the pains of lying to his disgrace, but only to his reputation ; and one is a thousand times apter to believe men when they confess to their disadvantage than when they deny for interest.

[Anonymous No.11861799]

4/4

These testimonies then of your gods against themselves often conduce to the making of Christians, because there is no believing them, without believing in our Master Christ. The very devils kindle in us the belief of Holy Scripture; the very devils are edifying, and raise our hope to assurance. But you worship them, and with the blood of Christians too, I well know; and therefore they would by no means lose such good clients and devoted servants as you are, not only for the sake of their honours and offerings, but for fear, should any of you turn Christians, you should dispossess and serve them as we do. They would never, I say, baulk a lie, in so grand a concern, was it in their power to lie, when a Christian interrogates them in order to give you a proof of his religion by their own confession.

[Anonymous No.11861803]

[Anonymous No.11861849]

Bump.

[Anonymous No.11861889]

Anyway, there you have it, if anyone cares to read it. One of the finest Latin prose stylists of early Christendom, essentially agreeing with the thrust of my argument in my former thread. Do you guys still think I'm a madman? Well, that's fine if you do. Bless your hearts.

[Anonymous No.11861926]

demons and gods are the same thing? wtf is he even saying?

[Anonymous No.11861953]

>>11861926
>demons and gods are the same thing?
Yes.

>wtf is he even saying?
He is saying that demons and gods are the same thing.

It's a fine point, I know, I can barely apprehend it myself, but then again I am a madman. I'm sure that you guys, who are mentally more robust than me, can wrap your heads around it.

[Anonymous No.11861969]

>>11861926
demons are fallen angels just like sauron and gandalf are both maiar but sauron was corrupted by morgoth.

[Anonymous No.11862099]

Bumping this one more time. I hope the guy who called me a madman sees this. Does this Tertullian fellow strike you as a fruitcake too?

[Anonymous No.11862271]

C'mon guys.

[Anonymous No.11862281]

Come at me.

[Anonymous No.11862721]

Does any of you have a hot take on this one. I just wanna read some takes.

[Anonymous No.11863277]

I went through the trouble of copying and pasting this whole thing, so I'm bumping this again.

[Anonymous No.11863288]

>>11863277
I'm reading it now, hold your horses. I'll be formulating my reply and then posting it. Just wait a second damn it.

[Anonymous No.11863402]

>>11863288
I can't tell if you're taking the piss. I would actually appreciate a reply, but whatever. See ya later guys.

[Anonymous No.11863453]

>>11863402
Looks like he is arguing against polytheism

[Anonymous No.11864028]

Final bump. I hope that one guy reads this thread.

[Anonymous No.11864041]

>>11861926
I would agree with that, yes. There can be only one, any competition is evil

[Anonymous No.11864049]

>megathread
>18 replies
lol

[Anonymous No.11864067]

>>11864049
The title was meant as a joke.

[Anonymous No.11864071]

>>11864067
It wasn't funny lol

[Anonymous No.11864080]

>>11861782
>DUDE desert religions from thousands of years ago that literally burn people at the stake for thinking too rationally lmao

It's sooooooo tiresome seeing these kinds of threads

I wish these LARPers and their credulous followers would just fuck off of this board already. what absolutely shit content

[Anonymous No.11864144]

>>11864080
What are you doing here?

[king stannis baratheon first o(...) !9fB.6ikQAA No.11864149]

>>11864080
YOU HAVE FALLEN INTO THE CARTESO-SPINOZAN TRAP
the only solution is to read Nietzsche and the DEAD SEA SCROLLS and grasp the innate connexion between these texts and the PROTO INDO EUROPEAN ARYAN WORLD

[Anonymous No.11864219]

>So wait, if Jesus is real, then what are the gods of our ethnic religions?
>DEMONS
Woah...

[Anonymous No.11864333]

>>11864219
Try being a little more open-minded. Have the generosity, for instance, to consider that the phenomenon the author is relating might indeed be something he has personally witnessed. To wit, the gods, through the mouths of former pagans, confessing during Christian exorcisms that they are in fact demons.

Modern missionaries to Africa have similar tales to tell. So do contemporary Catholic priests in India. I talked about this at lenght in my former thread. As these missonaries or these priests perform exorcisms, the deities, whether African or Hindu, confess to be demons, and squirm at the mention of the name of Jesus.

I haven't found any kind of symmetrical phenomenon in other religions in relation to Christianity. I have never come across any story of an African shaman exorcising Christian saints from a possessed person, saints who upon being commanded by the shaman to reveal themselves, confess to being demons. I have never come across any story of a Hindu priest exorcising "Christian demons" from some Christian-to-Hindu convert.

If exorcisms were a mere act, or a mere psychological phenomenon, one would expect such things to happen. One would expect the Christian "deities", as it were, to reveal themselves to be demons upon being exorcised by some other religion's priest. But again, I have never found any evidence of this kind of thing.

And yet recorded instances of Christians exorcising pagan "gods" abound. I have provided one from the 2nd century A.D. in this thread. But you can find similar instances in the books of contemporary Catholic and Protestant exorcists.

[Anonymous No.11864600]

>>11864080
>pretends to support rationality
>entire argument is emotional
System error.

[Anonymous No.11864766]

>>11863402
Ended up watching a movie. I'll reply when I wake up now.

[Anonymous No.11865825]

>>11864766
Up now.

[Anonymous No.11865850]

>>11861782
Of course they are the same thing. They were aliens fucking around with people. Remember Ezekiel'a vision.

[Anonymous No.11866046]

>>11861782
This is why I stopped being inherently hostile to Christian thought. These were the writings of a highly intelligement man. Even if his assumptions are wrong, it's worth reading. It's like dismissing the Greeks entirely because they worshipped Zeus or Apollo. There is such a knee jerk reaction to dismiss it because of the belief system it operates in.

[Anonymous No.11866068]

>>11861953
>apprehend

[Anonymous No.11866075]

>>11861969
Who was Morgoth? Another ayy or a human that corrupted an alien?

[Anonymous No.11866449]

>>11861889
Archived version of previous thread?

I do agree with you OP. If you read the opening of genesis (which i personally do have a hard time with) this is what it states.

[Anonymous No.11866458]

>>11866068
>apprehend

2. understand or perceive.
"great art invites us to apprehend beauty"
synonyms: appreciate, recognize, discern, perceive, make out, take in, realize, grasp, understand, comprehend; informal: get the picture

[Anonymous No.11866518]

>>11866449
>Archived version of previous thread?

The mod pruned it, so I don't know if you can even find it. But my writing there was kind of all over the place, so it's ok.

[Anonymous No.11866539]

>>11865850
Or, you know, ayys are demons. That's the positions many Christians hold. There's an eccentric German conspiracy poster on /pol/, and he said something very interesting. He said he has come across several stories of people who during "alien abduction" experiences told the alien or aliens to flee in the name of Jesus, and they immediately fled.

[Anonymous No.11866623]

>>11865850
So an interesting big picture forms. It would seem, if all these witnesses both ancient and contemporary are to be believed, that for some reason all these numinous beings, whether they be pagan gods or aliens, bow to the name of Jesus.

This, of course, because gods and aliens are mere disguises of the evil spirits. Christianity strips down the false mythologies; it brings everything to light.

Now don't get me wrong. It's fine to read Homer and Hesiod. On the whole there is a charm and even an innocence to the pagan fables. They might indeed be a way of "making sense of the world", as scholars are fond of saying. And of course, Genesis itself is obviously a myth. Truth revealed through symbols.

But in the end, when you get to the bottom of it, under the frenzied and colorful spectacle of all the pagan myths, these gods, these spirits to whom the pagans offered their dances and their ritual sacrifices, are demons.

This is something of a sinister subject, and maybe it's a good idea to not spend too much time dwelling on it. I believe in demons, I believe that pagan gods and aliens are just demons, and this because they all bow to the name of Christ. Not to any other god, but to Christ. And this seemingly observable fact reinforces my Christian faith.

Again, I think it's good not to dwell on the demonology side of theology too much. It's probably not very healthy spiritually. My point with this thread and the previous thread was just to present one of the reasons I believe Christianity to be the true religion.

[Anonymous No.11866663]

>>11861782
hey anon, thanks for posting this. /lit/ needs more early Christian philosophy of the non-meme variety. Have you read Jung's Answer to Job?

[Anonymous No.11866863]

Are you the guy who was posting about exorcisims?

[Anonymous No.11866903]

Tertullian was a simple-minded Montanist fool. Read Clement of Alexandria instead, who properly regarded Plato as divinely inspired.

[Anonymous No.11866916]

>>11866663
Nope, haven't read it. Thanks for the tip.

[Anonymous No.11866918]

>>11866863
Yeah.

[Anonymous No.11866927]

>>11866903
Shove your Clement of Alexandria volumes up your ass.

[Anonymous No.11866929]

>>11866623
What makes you so certain that these other gods are demons, and that Christ alone is the only non-demonic god worshipped out there?

[Anonymous No.11866948]

>>11866918
We need another website to be able to have this kind of discussion. I asked you last time if you had a reading list, but the thread was deleted immediately afterwards

[Anonymous No.11866955]

>>11866929
not OP but Jesus Christ is united with God in hypostatic union. God is the form of the good. This is known, and proved in Jesus' life and ministry. That's how you know.

[Anonymous No.11866959]

>>11866927
suck the shit from my asshole, christard

[Anonymous No.11866972]

>>11866955
>This is known, and proved in Jesus' life and ministry.
You're going to have to provide arguments for this, friend.

[Anonymous No.11866984]

>>11866955
>This is known
you must have slayed debate club

[Anonymous No.11866985]

>>11866972
60,000 years of goat herding
500 years of Greek philosophy
>Christ dies for our sins, and teaches us to cultivate peace and forgiveness
2,000 years of fruitfulness, multiplying, and technological advancement

take a gander at human history friend

[Anonymous No.11866998]

>>11866985
So you take the material conditions of history to be evidence of divine providence? In that case, I must ask, do you believe that the millions of death caused by WWI and WWII were part of God's plan?

[Anonymous No.11867007]

>>11866998
>I must ask, do you believe that the millions of death caused by WWI and WWII were part of God's plan?
That's a very provocative question, anon, and one aimed to put me into a trick bag where I can be safely ignored as a nut or a nazi.

You're asking me about the problem of evil. And being that God is the first cause and first principle, and being that God punished the Israelites repeatedly in the Hebrew Bible, why should I be surprised if they are nearly destroyed again in WW2?

Everything is part of God's plan, anon.

[Anonymous No.11867029]

>>11867007
I wasn't referring to the holocaust specifically, just the massive destruction and loss of life in general. But again, your argument is that Christ is the Messiah because after his life and death, the material conditions of humanity slowly developed over the millennia. Why would material progress be synonymous with godliness and/or the truth?

[Anonymous No.11867030]

>>11866929
>What makes you so certain that these other gods are demons, and that Christ alone is the only non-demonic god worshipped out there?

Everything I have said in this post ~> >>11864333

Although "Zeus" is probably how Greeks refer to the real God. In fact, St. Paul says as much in the book of Acts. And God probably hears the prayers that sincere-hearted Muslims direct to Allah. And so on. Most cosmologies, even the polytheistic pagan ones, seem to include some kind of high, primordial, all-powerful "God".

But you know. There are accounts of Christian exorcists exorcising Hindu, Yoruba, Aztec etc. gods from people. To be honest, you can even find such exorcisms on Youtube. But there are no accounts of, say, some Hindu priest exorcising "St. Francis" or "St. Michael the Archangel" from a former Christian. But again, you do have it the other way around: you do have Catholic priests exorcising Hindu gods from former Hindus.

Why this pattern? I have never found a satisfying explanation for it. I can only conclude that Jesus Christ is indeed God.

I'm not a model Christian. As my reply to the Clement of Alexandria guy just now makes clear. But this pattern... I just can't ignore it. I came across it when I was trying to prove to myself that Christianity isn't real. This happened in in my edgy teenager phase. But the more I looked into it, the more frighteningly real Christianity began to look. It's the opposite of confirmation bias, really. I did everything I could in trying to honestly disprove Christianity to myself, applying the most merciless logical rigour I was capable of, but Christianity was always left standing, in the end, intact.

I'm not a dummy. I can tell a logical fallacy from a mile away. There are thousands of atheist manifestos out there, filled with superficially plausible refutations of all the Christian claims. I'm perfectly aware of this. But even in the years of my youth in which I wanted to convince myself that God isn't real, I just couldn't honestly convince myself of it. I would be lying to myself.

[Anonymous No.11867038]

>>11866959
I thought you were some kind of pedantic young Christian intellectual. You know, those guys who pretend that there is something holy to their intellectualism, which is actually a form of sinful pride. Hence my aggressive reply. Please forgive me.

[Anonymous No.11867048]

>>11867029
Assuming this question is sincere, go back and re-read my post. Material progress is a product of peace, which is for the good, of the good, and by the good. Godliness is simply that, being like Christ. Imitatio Dei. That is to say, being good. Manifesting grace in the world.

>inb4 what is good

adjective
1.
to be desired or approved of.

[Anonymous No.11867061]

>>11867029
Incidentally, speaking of ultimate good, what do you suppose is the only thing in the world you can want for itself? It costs nothing, and you can give it away yourself without losing any of it. What is this magical substance. Jesus (and the Greeks) talked about it a lot.

[Anonymous No.11867068]

(It has something to with "desired or approved of".)

[Anonymous No.11867071]

>>11867048
Ok, so you say Christ is the Messiah because he taught us how to live in peace, I can buy that, but there were periods of time after his life where there was NOT peace. The fall of Rome, the Mongol conquests, the colonisation of the New World, etc. How do you account for these?

>>11867061
Beauty?

[Anonymous No.11867084]

>>11867071
Love, my guy. You're right in that beauty is one of its qualities.

>How do you account for these?
I account for them in the following way. You have forgotten your place. We are just leaves on a tree, quick to fall. We are not made to last. Death is reunion with God. Mortal suffering is abhorrent to us, yes, truly. But our souls are not mortal, and suffering on Earth is not a measure of God's love.

[Anonymous No.11867090]

can't stay gotta go

[Anonymous No.11867102]

(to heaven, eventually)

[Anonymous No.11867106]

>>11867084
Alright, fair enough. I can't say I agree with you but at least you seem to have some consistency to your beliefs. Thanks for your replies.

[Anonymous No.11867113]

>>11867106
Thank you for your questions friend.

[Anonymous No.11867143]

Just thinking out loud now,

>Romans 11:32
>For God has consigned all men to disobedience so he may have mercy on them all.

Thinking of this and the idea that mortal suffering is cannot be reckoned as measure of God's love or satisfaction with man. God's love is without measure. It is known. Consequently I'm left to wonder if presenting mortal suffering as evidence against God even makes sense. It's apples and skateboards.

[a_poor_sinner !!eiHxl4pZe1i No.11867147]

putting on the trip so i get internet credit in the far future

[Anonymous No.11867163]

Well, I'm not that well-read. For apologetics I suppose you could read Chesterton's Orthodoxy and The Everlasting Man, and Lewis' Mere Christianity. Particularly the Chesterton books, they're seriously riveting reads.

And most of their arguments are benign, beautiful, demon-free arguments, so that should be refreshing. As I said, this is kind of a dark subject. I brought it up because it is indeed one of the reasons I strongly believe in Christianity, but I try not to think too much about it. It can lead to an undesirable kind of puritanism. You know, you may begin thinking "Should I have this beer? What if I get an 'alcohol addiction demon' from doing it?"

Which leads me to why I like Catholicism even though I was raised Protestant. Catholics know joie de vivre, while Puritanism is mostly a Protestant phenomenon. Puritans frown on wine-drinking and card-playing, while Catholics seem to be okay with these things in moderation. Even St. Thomas Aquinas recommends wine as a remedy for depression.

If a Catholic sins, he doesn't think about demons, as some Pentecostals do; he thinks "I need to confess." Catholics have their social customs in place, customs that include alcohol, and they have their rituals in place, rituals that include Confession. Their customs and rituals have been refiend over millenia, they have settled into their current form because they have proven themselves to be conducive to a well-ordered life.

So the Catholic doesn't need to overthink things, as I have been doing in my threads. He has his customs and he has his rituals, and they keep him sane and sound. He doesn't fall into puritanism on one side or dissolution on the other.

Sorry for rambling. I think a lot about this stuff. This is stuff I have been reading about and thinking about. I honestly think it might be good not too dwell on these dark subjects, in short, as real as they might be.

[Anonymous No.11867190]

>>11866948
Whoops, forgot the tripcode. This reply ~> 11867163 was meant for you.

[Anonymous No.11867195]

>>11867143
I like the Catholic idea of "offering your suffering as a sacrifice to God."

It makes sense to me intuitively. It seems to solve the "problem of pain", as C. S. Lewis put it.

[a_poor_sinner !!eiHxl4pZe1i No.11867257]

>>11867195
It's a tidy way to close the loop, but I have a hard time understanding it. I don't take pleasure from being angry or holding a grudge, I don't value suffering. I don't see how it can function as an offering. Maybe enduring suffering as an offering, but I rather consider that a gift to me and not the other way around. Very confusing.

[Anonymous No.11867272]

I have this feeling that in making these threads I may have imprudently pulled back the curtain on a subject that is not meant to be so publicly and so carelessly discussed. Know what I mean?

And I fear I might be doing a disservice to Christianity in writing about this very serious subject when the way I write doesn't seem exactly to suggest a holy disposition. I mean to be honest I'm a proud guy and most of this time I was just trying to prove a point.

But maybe, God willing, I helped one or two guys be more sympathetic to the idea that Christianity is true. So I guess that's good.

[Anonymous No.11867281]

>>11867163
>>11867190
Thanks for sharing these recommendations. Forgive me if it’s immature to say, but this actually is somewhat uplifting for me because it provides non-anecdotal evidence for Christ. Jesus sought me out within the past year and I converted to Christianity a few months ago, however, it’s been something I’ve kept to myself for the most part because I know that I wouldn’t be able to rationalize the faith beyond anecdotal evidence. Like Kierkegaard said, God can’t be understood with rationality because God transcends reason.
Thanks again, for both the recs and your threads.

[Anonymous No.11867836]

bump