/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11938145]

How do atheists reconcile with Pascal's Wager?

[Anonymous No.11938164]

>>11938145
How did this meme "wager" even get popularized, did Pascal even take into account how many faiths and religions exist in this world?

[Anonymous No.11938167]

>>11938164
Doesn't matter, it's universal

[Anonymous No.11938175]

>>11938167
Clearly it does matter when different faiths are at odd with each other

[Anonymous No.11938179]

Just because the "odds" would be better doesn't mean my beliefs will change. If I choose to take a leap of faith as an insurance policy for the afterlife, do you really think God will take me seriously? fuck no, I'm going to be punished regardless.

[Anonymous No.11938183]

>>11938164
>did Pascal even take into account how many faiths and religions exist in this world?
Yes, numb nuts. Read a book.

[Anonymous No.11938184]

The wager can only lead to inauthentic belief.
If I'm going down, you're coming with me.

[Anonymous No.11938186]

>>11938145
it allows me to call out christians to prove they have an extremely week foundation of faith

[Anonymous No.11938190]

>>11938164
>t. doesn't understand the wager

[Anonymous No.11938197]

>>11938179
>hasn’t read Penseés
Pascal addresses this in the same paragraphs as the wager. Accepting that you should believe in God is the first step. Actually seeking God is what comes next.

[Anonymous No.11938201]

>>11938190
The problem with the water is that we are to assume we know which faith is true. We simply don't have that information.

[Anonymous No.11938202]

>>11938145
false dichotomy

[Anonymous No.11938204]

>>11938167
Yeah, but every God says "Woship me not the others or else you're doomed".

[Anonymous No.11938205]

>>11938201
You still don't understand the wager, you just reaffirmed the previous statement

[Anonymous No.11938211]

>>11938204
That's definitely something introduced by the religious leaders

[Anonymous No.11938213]

>>11938205
Lmao explain what he doesn't understand. I have a feeling that you are someone from /pol/ who became a Chrsitian for the sake of contrarianism. I have a feeling that you have never read Pascal. Prove me wrong.

[Anonymous No.11938217]

>>11938211
what? how many religious texts have you read?

[Anonymous No.11938218]

>>11938211
It's in the Bible.

[Anonymous No.11938221]

>>11938211
If that is introduced by the "religious leaders", why wouldn't hell be as well?

[Anonymous No.11938228]

>>11938145
Because atheists just don't believe. They can't be forced to believe in God any more than they can be forced to believe in Bigfoot.

[Anonymous No.11938232]

>>11938213
It's all explained in the paragraphs, he takes into account all these arguments incase you didn't know

>be French polymath prodigious genius
>come up with a neat thought experiment
>NEETs from 4chan think they got you with an argument you already adressed
dropped

[Anonymous No.11938236]

>>11938205
So explain it then

[Anonymous No.11938237]

>>11938197
>reading the Pensées
>Atheists. What grounds have they for saying that no one can rise from the dead? Which is harder, to be born or to rise again? That what has never been should be, or that what has been should be once more? Is it harder to come into existence than to come back? Habit makes us find the one easy, while lack of habit makes us find the other impossible.
Yeah nice arguments faggot

[Anonymous No.11938239]

>>11938217
>>11938218
>>11938221
The Texts are a joke.

[Anonymous No.11938241]

They don’t. They just ignore the nagging existential dread until they get sick and die alone.

[Anonymous No.11938245]

>>11938232
Lmao.

[Anonymous No.11938246]

>>11938237
>redirects to a completely different passage
No one claims the whole of the book is sound. We’re discussing the wager, here.

[Anonymous No.11938250]

>>11938232
>muh appeal to authority
>not posting those devastating paragraphs to shut us up
A lot of polymath geniuses had retarded metaphysical ideas anon

[Anonymous No.11938253]

>>11938239
if you cant trust the text or the leaders what is the point of religion at all?

[Anonymous No.11938256]

>>11938204
>You shall not have other gods before my face.
The symbolism of this is that we are not to think truth comes from any source other than the Lord. This is because gods is sym- bolic of what is true and in the negative sense of what is false; and face—when speaking of God—is symbolic of love, mercy, peace, goodness, and therefore the Lord himself, since these things come from him.
Another reason you shall not have other gods before my face symbolizes that we are not to think truth comes from any source other than the Lord is because the Lord’s deified human manifestation, symbolized by I am Jehovah your God, is the first thing mentioned. Therefore, it is the first in the sequence and must be universally sovereign within every single truth that follows.
And now are established the kinds of things we must avoid because they would ruin or prevent the Lord from being universally sovereign within each and every truth contained in the principles and laws declared and commanded from Mount Sinai. The main thing that would prevent this from happening is to think truth comes from some source other than the Lord, symbolized by you shall not have other gods before my face.
The other things that would prevent this universal sover- eignty from happening are the things that follow in the sequence: that they should not make graven images for them- selves; should make no likenesses of the things that are in the heavens, in the earth, and in the waters; and should not bow down to them or serve them. After these are specified, because I am Jehovah your God is repeated as a symbol that the Lord must be within each and every truth.

[Anonymous No.11938258]

By not giving a shit.

[Anonymous No.11938261]

>>11938253
The texts are misinterpreted. That is the main issue

[Anonymous No.11938263]

Why Pascal's Wager is retarded:

>It's a false dichotomy
>It supposes that if you just take up faith not under genuine belief but as a crutch that God will just fall for your deception
>It is a solely Christian concept which mean it ignores all the other possible Gods and deities that have existed in human history

[Anonymous No.11938265]

>>11938261
>Implying all text ain't subjective.

[Anonymous No.11938271]

>>11938256
the question is why is your God a better chance at salvation than worshipping Baal?

[Anonymous No.11938276]

>>11938263
>false dichotomy
Elaborate.
>deceiving God
Pascal addresses this. Genuine faith is acquired after humbling yourself, seeking God, etc. The wager is the beginning.
>solely Christian concept
How many religions are monotheistic? How many of those do you think are worth our time and effort? Surely you don’t think Islam is comparable to Christianity. If any is true, which would you bet on?

[Anonymous No.11938282]

[Anonymous No.11938289]

>>11938175
The idea seems to make a sound case for deism if not for Christianity specifically but I'm a bit of a pleb on the issue

[Anonymous No.11938291]

>>11938276
>Elaborate.
Fake belief in God = salvation, just not believing = hell is a false dichotomy
>The wager is the beginning.
That doesn't prove you will find God after initially faking it, which God would definitely know you are doing
>If any is true, which would you bet on?
None because the odds of getting it right is an infinitely small chance

[Anonymous No.11938292]

Do athiests think they are immune to being persuaded towards god?

[Anonymous No.11938296]

>>11938282
As if the infinite religions all have the same probability of being true. Also, Pascal defended Christianity. So you should probably attend to his defenses rather than posting this garbage.

[Anonymous No.11938299]

>>11938296
>As if the infinite religions all have the same probability
Why not?

[Anonymous No.11938307]

>>11938276
>>11938296
>Surely you don’t think Islam is comparable to Christianity. If any is true, which would you bet on?
A lot of people think otherwise, Pascal's wager was a poor attempt at metaphysics grounded on Eurocentrism(and not even that Euro inclusive at that), in the end you're simply choosing Christianity over other religions with no basis other than your upbringing and feels, with sprinkles of contrarian faggotry since this is 4chan.

[Anonymous No.11938308]

>>11938299
Because most of them have zero mysticism and are simply manufactured by humans

[Anonymous No.11938317]

>>11938308
You mean all of them?

[Anonymous No.11938319]

>>11938292
>tfw studied scriptures and philosphy for years to try and come to some sort of meaning in life
>unironically explore Christianity on depth
>study under Catholic ethics professor
>find the most worthwhile interpretations of scripture are athiest Christians
>still agnostic
tfw

[Anonymous No.11938322]

>>11938291
>Fake belief in God = salvation, just not believing = hell is a false dichotomy
Quit it with the “fake belief” bullshit. I already told you that true faith is acquired through time. It’s important to remember that belief itself is meaningless. There are other means of fixing your soul to God.
>That doesn't prove you will find God after initially faking it, which God would definitely know you are doing
Have you tried it? Have you humbled yourself before the Lord, and seemed after him? I have, after years of atheism. If I were to not have done this, I would have no excuse for my disbelief, as it is evident that I can be changed.
>None because the odds of getting it right is an infinitely small chance
Muh african pagan religions. I will say that it is possible to get into heaven without being Christian, but Christianity is the easiest way.

[Anonymous No.11938331]

>>11938322
>Christianity is the easiest way
Why

[Anonymous No.11938334]

>>11938299
Some are purely arbitrary. Believing that God only rewards those who eat their own shit has no real basis. Believing that God is goodness, and that we should strive nearer to Him, is a much more probable belief.

[Anonymous No.11938346]

>implying all religions aren't just different flawed ways of experiencing and communing with the divine
The many religions argument is like 'proving' rock is not music because other genres exist. It makes no sense and has no bearing on Pascal

[Anonymous No.11938352]

>>11938334
>non-christian religions only reward shit-eating
anon this is the laziest strawman on this whole board right now

[Anonymous No.11938358]

>>11938331
It teaches that we are sinful, shows us our wretched state. No other religion is as clear on the matter as Christianity. But most importantly it offers us a way closer to God through Jesus. There is a reason Deists fall into atheism. They have no object of worship, even if they wanted to worship God.

Also, the Bible.

[Anonymous No.11938359]

>>11938334
Even if we exclude the shit eating strawmen religions, striving to be good isn't a Christian exclusive thing

[Anonymous No.11938364]

>>11938352
It’s an example. There are infinite religions, are there not? I could create a religion right now, can’t I? Do you think my shit-eating religion is equally likely as Christianity?

[Anonymous No.11938369]

>>11938359
Yes, good point, and obviously Christianity is not the only way, but I believe it is the best way. I don’t think people ignorant of who Jesus is should be exempt from Heaven

[Anonymous No.11938378]

>>11938334
IMO that's too restrictive, God is goodness, and also beauty, and truth. Being nearer to divinity, to the heavens, can happen through artistic inspiration, moral deeds, and methodical, rigorous thinking about the world and acquiring Spinozan "clear and distinct" ideas about things. There seems to be something godly or divine or trascendental about all three of those.

[Anonymous No.11938382]

>>11938145
Psychology is the bane of the genuine Christian.

>In this state a man enriches everything from out his own abundance: what he sees, what he wills, he sees distended, compressed, strong, overladen with power. He transfigures things until they reflect his power,—until they are stamped with his perfection. This compulsion to transfigure into the beautiful is—Art Everything—even that which he is not,—is nevertheless to such a man a means of rejoicing over himself; in Art man rejoices over himself as perfection.—It is possible to imagine a contrary state, a specifically anti-artistic state of the instincts,—a state in which a man impoverishes, attenuates, and draws the blood from everything. And, truth to tell, history is full of such anti-artists, of such creatures of low vitality who have no choice but to appropriate everything they see and to suck its blood and make it thinner. This is the case with the genuine Christian, Pascal for instance. There is no such thing as a Christian who is also an artist ... Let no one be so childish as to suggest Raphael or any homeopathic Christian of the nineteenth century as an objection to this statement: Raphael said Yea, Raphael did Yea,—consequently Raphael was no Christian.

[Anonymous No.11938397]

>>11938271
Not the same poster but...
I think it's a pretty strong sign that no one has worshiped Baal for thousands of years. Its also a pretty good sign that Christianity is among the few religions that isn't tied to one specific empire or group. Many religions have been created by and for a group and die off with that group but Christianity has been embraced by numerous peoples and empires. Likewise, it is the best bet out of the major religions. Hinduism and Judaism only really apply to you if you were born into them, Buddhism on its original form was Hinduism, and Christians are saved under islam. This isn't definately isn't an airtight argument and every religion is going to require faith but it's what helps me in times of doubt.

[Anonymous No.11938414]

>>11938397
>Christians are saved under islam.
No they're not

[Anonymous No.11938415]

Which God?

[Anonymous No.11938428]

Cause it’s stupid. Mostly all religions say good deeds are rewarded, so the lack of belief is not a ball and chain.

[Anonymous No.11938434]

>>11938414
We can only hope. God doesn’t give us his exact words on it, but he is very forgiving and merciful as the Quran says. And the Christians were also the Muslims greatest allies in the Quran.

[Anonymous No.11938440]

>>11938414
>>11938434
Well, Islam says that hell is only temporary, or at least ahmadiyya

[Anonymous No.11938445]

>>11938428
Whose the dude that steals gods touch from adam?

[Anonymous No.11938450]

>>11938428
Not true. Belief in him, his personality, his essence, everything. That is the nature of belief and faith in God.

There’s a reason try call faith ‘getting to know God’

[Anonymous No.11938453]

>>11938445
Anon... it’s Plato.

[Anonymous No.11938455]

>>11938445
Satan

[Anonymous No.11938459]

>>11938440
No it doesn’t, and that should never be your interpretation. We are thought to believe that a good Christian will receive some reprieve, but he’ll is everlasting. The angel in charge of it, will not let them go, no matter how much they want to

[Anonymous No.11938462]

>>11938450
Well regardless of what belief means good deeds are rewarded.

[Anonymous No.11938465]

>>11938459
>he’ll
Should be hell.

[Anonymous No.11938470]

>>11938322
>Christianity is one of many paths to heaven
1st John 4:2-3
John 14:6
Exodus 20:3-5
If you think that you can reach heaven by any other means than belief in Christ Jesus you are not a Christian and in direct disagreement with the teachings of Jesus as well as the old testament. Please refrain from spreading heresy but besides that you're posting some interesting stuff.

>>11938414
“Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Baqarah 2:62]

[Anonymous No.11938471]

>>11938462
Not if you don’t have faith and recognize God they aren’t.

[Anonymous No.11938474]

>>11938459
>>11938465
Like I said, in ahmadiyya it’s just temporary.
It’s basically the Mormons of Islam

[Anonymous No.11938478]

>>11938471
Ah shit really? Guess I’ll burn in hell

[Anonymous No.11938483]

>>11938470
But the Quran is littered with verses telling of how they will learn their lesson. Their flesh and etc. will become extremely and permanently tortured.

Hell is something reserved for those souls which are not pure. Getting to know virtuous attitudes and ways of being helps save your spirit and body and subvert it from descending to hell after you die.

[Anonymous No.11938488]

>>11938474
Then duck that. Seriously. Those people aren’t following the Quran. I love the Quran, but I dislike the Hadiths, they are much too political

[Anonymous No.11938490]

>>11938378
>the three transcendetal mediums
ABSOLUTELY based Christian apologetic

[Anonymous No.11938492]

>>11938488
>duck
Should be fuck

[Anonymous No.11938501]

>>11938440
Hell is only temporary for sinners who didnt commit Shirk. Shirk is essentially atheism or believing in the wrong God. I think it is safe to say all Abrahamic religions are safe in Islam (though Christians and Jews will likely be mildly punished before entering Heaven). Jesus and Moses are both prophets in Islam, remember that

[Anonymous No.11938502]

>>11938145
They don't

[Anonymous No.11938512]

>>11938478
By believing in God--the greatest good work-- one can be saved. Give in to God Anon, you have nothing to lose.

[Anonymous No.11938514]

>>11938364
>There are infinite religions
no, infinite possible religions perhaps, but I don't see why we need to make up a hypothetical one when there are plenty of factual examples. Plus, I could just make up a religion that's the same as Christianity but has 12 commandments to cover slavery and rape; now it is objectively better than Christianity, and therefore a better path to God. but is that helpful at all? probably not.

[Anonymous No.11938521]

>>11938512
Nah, I’m too prideful to do that. I would rather burn then submit to an unjust ruler

[Anonymous No.11938530]

>>11938521
I don't understand disagreeing with the morals or "Injustice" of a religion being a valid reason to not believe in it. What makes one so arrogant that they believe they have the opinions that a deity must have? If you assume that God is all powerful and all knowing then you have to realize that your limited ideas and intellect cannot judge him.

[Anonymous No.11938533]

>>11938521
Some are too dumb for heaven. This is what the Koran says

[Anonymous No.11938553]

>>11938530
An all powerful and all knowing god who constantly tests and torments is basically evil. He knew Adam and Eve would eat the apple, he knew that Job would stay loyal to god, he knew they would crusify Christ, and he knew about all of the other results of the tests he would give prior to doing them. Why else would he do it then if not for his assument? Now he chooses to remain silent in an age where values and ethics are st an all time low. He’s either doing all of this on purpose or he’s not real

[Anonymous No.11938554]

>>11938397
Zoroastrianism is older and worshiped by people all over. Literally the only unique thing Christianity has going for it is number of beleivers, but obviously that isn't a historical constant.

[Anonymous No.11938566]

>>11938553
he hardened the pharohs heart so that the jews wouldn't be allowed to leave Egypt

[Anonymous No.11938567]

>>11938533
The Quran also says don’t eat pork and advocates circumsition

[Anonymous No.11938568]

>>11938553
What would be the point of free will and faith if we were mechanistically just doing good deeds all the time? Angels are for that, men have a different purpose

[Anonymous No.11938576]

>>11938568
Giving us freedom and punishing us for doing whatever we want is a very mixed message
>>11938566
Okay?

[Anonymous No.11938577]

>>11938164
so? picking one of those faiths and religions still nets you a better chance at afterlife than atheism

[Anonymous No.11938585]

>>11938576
You omitted giving is guidance and divine rules for how to live our lifes

[Anonymous No.11938597]

>>11938585
If you’re going to give us free will then hand us a set of rules otherwise we face eternal damnation then just take away the freewill. It’s like a catch-22 or some sick joke.

[Anonymous No.11938604]

>>11938576
missed the point I guess, he doesn't just know the outcome of freewill he actively meddles with it to get his way. he didn't set everything up so Moses wouldn't convince the pharaoh, the pharaoh was convinced by his own free will and God changed his mind to fuck over Moses, or something.

[Anonymous No.11938610]

>>11938604
Then that’s even more annoying. He wanted Moses to free the Jews but god made harder than it had to be as if he were playing a game. A being that acts like that is not worthy of worship

[Anonymous No.11938637]

>>11938553
You confuse foreknowledge with the lack of free will. Man's purpose is to honor and glorify God (Isaiah 43:7). Without man's ability to disobey God the glory would mean much less. God created the universe with the possibility for sin although he himself does not directly cause it. There are other explanations but this is a mystery that Christians accept as God did not reveal all of his plan to us.
>Now he chooses to remain silent in an age where values and ethics are at an all time low.
First God is not silent today as there are numerous people on this thread alone sharing the completed word he has already given us. Second the bible teaches that the world is not at an all time low in ethics and values (Ecclesiastes 1:9) but it's your narrow perspective that causes you to see this.

[Anonymous No.11938665]

>>11938554
Mostly not arguing. I think my argument pretty well defended Islam, Christianity and Zoroastrianism as possibilities. I made the role of faith very clear. However saying that size is the only unique factor isn't quite right. Faith based salvation combined with monitheism is pretty unique to Christianity.

[Anonymous No.11938679]

>>11938364
Unironically yes, the meme effectiveness =/= probability of being true

[Anonymous No.11938700]

>>11938610
If you assume for a minute that God is all-powerful and all-knowing then how does it not seem ridiculous for a human to criticize or even understand his plans? It isn't logical to view a god' s actions through the lens of man's limited understanding.

>>11938597 see >>11938637

[Anonymous No.11938810]

>>11938665
wait till you hear about the other sequel to the Hebrew Scriptures that came out of the middle east, now those guys are wacky

[Anonymous No.11938811]

lmao what is there to reconcile with?

[Anonymous No.11938856]

>>11938811
That you are taking a bad bet unknowingly

[Anonymous No.11938858]

>>11938567
And I don’t eat pork and am circumcised

[Anonymous No.11938870]

>>11938145
Tired=Pascal's Wager
Wired=Fibonacci's Pager

[Anonymous No.11938875]

>>11938577
Believing a false god earns a higher punishment than no gods.

[Anonymous No.11938880]

>>11938856
It's bad either way, really. Either you choose not to follow the ridiculous commandments of an old desert cult and burn in hell for eternity, or you choose to follow them and waste the one life you had doing something dumb. This is why religion a shit, because it makes everything you could possibly do a bad thing. The people who engineered it were obviously not happy campers.

[Anonymous No.11938884]

>>11938875
What? No, atheism is unironically a religion too

[Anonymous No.11938886]

Who's to say there's not a kalevolent fedora wearing god that sends people to hell if they accept him or any misinterpeetation?

[Anonymous No.11938895]

>>11938880
> Either you choose not to follow the ridiculous commandments of an old desert cult
Funny because most atheists these days moralfag even harder than religious people do. There is a reason most progressives are atheist and most conservatives are religious

>or you choose to follow them and waste the one life you had doing something dumb.
Yes all the great painters, architects and sculptists were so goofy and dumb :DD

>This is why religion a shit, because it makes everything you could possibly do a bad thing.
No, it righly points out degeneracy is bad

>The people who engineered it were obviously not happy campers.
K

[Anonymous No.11938924]

>>11938296
>As if the infinite religions all have the same probability of being true.
Appeal to ridicule

>So you should probably attend to his defenses
Invincible ignorance

>rather than posting this garbage
Ad hominem

[Anonymous No.11938930]

>>11938870
It pages you more and more frequently until becoming a siren

[Anonymous No.11938936]

>>11938924
You can come to the conclusion that not all religions stand equal without appealing to ridicule but I'm sure you already knew that

[Anonymous No.11938948]

>>11938936
Starting your claim with "as if" sounds much more like ridicule/dismissal than something preceding a conclusion.

[Anonymous No.11938957]

>>11938948
I'm not the guy you responded to, just made and observation and noted it

[Anonymous No.11939042]

>>11938145
What if God punishes self-deception?

[Anonymous No.11939093]

>>11938145
I do it by being a generally decent, moral person.

[Anonymous No.11939108]

>>11939042
Then we’d all be going to hell

[Anonymous No.11939213]

>>11938145

By not having faith in God.

[Anonymous No.11939250]

>>11938322
>muh African pagan religions
You seem to be ignoring the possibility that there is a God that we don't know about on Earth. What are the odds that us humans found out about the real God?

[Anonymous No.11939327]

>>11938895
>Funny because most atheists these days moralfag even harder than religious people do.
What's that got to do with what I said?

>Yes all the great painters, architects and sculptists were so goofy and dumb :DD
See >>11938382
Also, creating something for the community to enjoy or to challenge your skills is quite different from following the laws of a dusty old book just because. Don't conflate the exercise of being a formidable member of a community with being religious. They are not the same thing.

>No, it righly points out degeneracy is bad
But it also invents what is degenerate or not. Also, degeneracy is necessary for life to be.

[Anonymous No.11939366]

>>11938875
No, atheism offends all gods.

[Anonymous No.11940551]

>>11938700
It's just like the classic idea of the men in the dark cave who only see the shadows of puppets cast on the wall before them. Because the people who put them there are responsible for their notions of the world and of greater reality, then they are also responsible for their misconceptions about greater reality. In short: If I cause you to be purposefully ignorant, I cannot then reasonably punish you for being ignorant.

[Anonymous No.11940717]

>>11938145
The wager itself is disingenuous. It asserts that true belief can stem from calculation, and that an omniscient/potent being would not see through the ruse, which is just silly
t. Agnostic

[Anonymous No.11940725]

>>11938145
By ignoring it. I don't care about wagering over imaginary things. It's not my business to plan my retirement in the afterlife. The job of the living is to live. I bet on this life as it is the only thing of which I can be certain.