/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11951059]

Oh my God, the Republic is right about everything, isn't it? It's right about justice, it's right about the soul, it's right about metaphysics, it's right about politics. This slender little book of philosophy is right about so many things that it's driven people mad from trying to disagree with it (this is what happened to Nietzsche).

[Anonymous No.11951074]

I honestly thought it was pretty ridiculous and one of Plato's weaker dialogues.

>dude lmao fuck poets, art is only allowed to show the ideal life
>we should bring our kids to battles and uh if they get in danger uh just make sure they have really fast horses to run away

Compared to the Symposium it just felt really weak.

[Anonymous No.11951097]

>>11951074
>>dude lmao fuck poets, art is only allowed to show the ideal life

If you do not comprehend the very valid point being made when Socrates chastises the poets you are probably underage and not capable of complex thought.

[Anonymous No.11951157]

>>11951074
yeah, I remember thinking a lot of the ideas came from a place of solid reasoning, but were kind of absurd in practicality

[Anonymous No.11951194]

>>11951157
Exactly. And I can imagine thinking they're good proposals for the time and the social context, I don't fault Plato and/or Socrates for them, but everyone is so eager to uncritically universalize everything they wrote. Like consider the Apology and the Crito. How many people were in Athens, around 200,000? Socrates was an influential guy, genuinely commanded the respect of many rich people's children, and they were one city-state among many -- strong relative to their peers, but compared to our contemporary conception of a nation-state definitely more precipicious. He was also actually cared for all his life by Athens, despite not doing much except think and bother people. In that context him going to his death so as not to cause social upheaval and undermine Athens makes sense and was prudent. But then you have dusty cunts who copy-paste his reasoning and go "dude lmao just follow the law, being treated unjustly doesnt give you any right to be unjust to the prison industrial complex."

>>11951097
>objecting to the claim that art should only ever portray utopian ideals means I'm underage
>believing that all the answers to all human dilemmas can be found in The Republic is based and redpilled

Listen I do really enjoy The Republic as a literary work, but theoretically it deviated so far from the Socrates that claims very little knowledge and just asks appropriately prrodding questions, which is the Socrates I prefer. The Socrates of The Republic claims a lot of knowledge and puts forward a lot of ridiculous ideas.

[Anonymous No.11951210]

>>11951194
It is absolutely fair to wonder and ponder if artists should have total freedom of expression when that freedom might result in the instability of the state. I say that as someone who is an artist. If you don't think that part of the Republic raises an extremely valid point--if you don't think there are good arguments to be made that the artistic should be subjugated to the political for the good of the citizenry--then yes, you are underage.

[Anonymous No.11951546]

Socrates said some interesting things in the Republic but he ignored the adeimantus' or glaucon's question of is it even possible what he is suggesting

[Anonymous No.11951551]

>>11951546
Did he?

[Anonymous No.11951558]

>>11951551
I can't remember exactly, but I think there was a part when one of them asked him if it was feasible and he kind of glossed over it or changed the subject

[Anonymous No.11951601]

>>11951558
Hmm

[Anonymous No.11951660]

>>11951074

>dude lmao fuck poets

It is almost universally dismissed in the academia that this was Plato's idea on poets. Read Stephen Halliwell.

[Anonymous No.11951675]

>>11951660
It seemed to me that he thought poets would give people a grandiose and unrealistic view of the world, and that would only lead to despair and other negative consequences.

Pls go easy on me I just finished this last night and parts of it were lost on me.

[Anonymous No.11951686]

>>11951675
They disturb the equilibrium of the ideally constituted soul and more importantly poets operate on the level of images not of the Forms like a philosopher. They lack contact with the Real and are thus incapable of telling the truth, even Nietzsche understood this (and praised them for it).

[Anonymous No.11951838]

>>11951675

The point is not against poetry but against certain themes proposed by poets and the fact that they were considered authorities in the Greek world. We don't consider artists authorities in anything nowadays and the conception of "art" we have is a product of the modern age (i.e. there was no conception of the artist as artist before the 1700s or at best before the late 1400s when the idea of the artist as imitator of god become popularized) and Plato really is not engaging in a critique of art. He says it is ontologically inferior to reality, which is true: this does not mean that it cannot bring traces of philosophical truth, in the same way in which everything that is an imitation of the forms in the sensible world can be used to ascend back to the forms. The sensible in Plato is despised only insofar as it is considered the ultimate end. If it is interpreted correctly, i.e. as an imitation of the form, it is the starting point in every quest for knowledge - much like the love for beautiful boedies in the Symposium can lead the philosophically oriented person to the love of the form of beauty.
Poetry, as well as the sensible world, is not part of the class of "bad" things, but of those which are "neither good not bad". If it is considered the supreme things and absolutely true, it becomes harmful. If it is repurposed toward education, it can be good, as it is proven by the fact that the first thing discussed in the construction of the city is what kind of stories should be told about the gods. Moreover, there is the idea of telling "white lies" to the guardians for the purpose of education (e.g. the story that they would have gold in their soul and therefore no need for material goods). Plato acknowledges the persuasive power of poetry as he had been a poet himself, writing tragedies before meeting Socrates. What he is fighting against is the authority which poets had in his time as "wise men". Today nobody would ask a poet how people should live or what is virtuous or not, but in ancient Greece they were considered reliable people from which getting answers on ethical matters - and let us not forget that cosmology and the stories about how the world was created were all in the hands of poets by the time of Plato. No I think that what he is trying to do is really to create not a different/opposite narrative of philosophy as absolutely right v. superstition/religion/poetry, but rather to limit the rhetoric power of poetry to certain areas (e.g. education of youth or non-philosophers) and keep it separate from a more precise, definite mode of inquiry.
He was possibly the best writer of ancient Greece and if you study his work in Greek you'll see that he was very aware of how poetry and literature in general work, and even used a few narrative tricks worthy of the best modern writers.

[Anonymous No.11951849]

I don't want to pollute the catalog so I guess I'll ask here: anyone got that infograph for greek philosophy?

[Anonymous No.11952664]

>>11951838
Hey thanks a lot anon this was actually really helpful. I'm >>11951194 and feel like a retard because I'm talking about historical context and completely forgot about Homer and Hesiod being considered serious moral and historical authorities and the fact that that's clearly what he's referring to.

[Anonymous No.11954054]

[Anonymous No.11954062]

[Anonymous No.11954748]

>>11951210
what is to be an artist?

[Anonymous No.11954828]

>>11951849

[Anonymous No.11954845]

you are like little babby

[Anonymous No.11954873]

>>11951074
I was agreeing with this post until
>compared to Symposium
I think you should only compare the immense work of the Republic to the only other comparable text: The Laws.

[Anonymous No.11955820]

>>11954845
I wish I could be as innocent and naive as you young ones. Unfortunately, all things must come to pass, and the present is not the same as the future. Logos is the only permanent truth, but only as a λόγος.

[Anonymous No.11955913]

Can anyone explain to me what the difference between "art" and "science" was for Socrates(Plato)? Specially in the Gorgias.

[Anonymous No.11955919]

>>11951059
>guy absolutely wrong about something as simple as poetry solved politics
nah

[Anonymous No.11955924]

>>11954845
he was the real socrates

[Anonymous No.11956230]

>>11951059
> it's driven people mad from trying to disagree with it (this is what happened to Nietzsche

Is this fucking bait, or are people on this board this low IQ? Jesus, Nietzsche was confirming the Republic, not disagreeing with it, you fucknut.

[Anonymous No.11956269]

>>11951838
People literally worship rap niggers. They should be reigned in by politicians.

[Anonymous No.11956290]

>>11951059
Pretty much

This is why the poles of Philosophy, Plato and Nietzsche, are the only two worth reading.

[Anonymous No.11956414]

>>11951074
>dude fuck poets
Read pic related

[Anonymous No.11956425]

One time I got into an argument on a Republic thread about the part of the book where Plato endorses a rigged genetic loterry so that the Chads have exclusive mating privileges. That poster categorically insisted that there are such remarks in the book even when I provided quotes. It was a strange and frustrating exchange.

[Anonymous No.11956440]

>>11956425
lottery*
there are no such remarks*

[Anonymous No.11956449]

If you think the Republic is a political program, you're not acquainted with Plato at all (bcs what you're looking for is in the Laws). In the Republic Plato admits that to attain a city like the one he described, it would requires the help of the gods.

[Anonymous No.11956478]

>>11956425
Ah yes, eugenics. Why isn't this a thing again?

[Anonymous No.11956665]

>>11956449
This.

The text is only partially political. It's mostly to do with ethics, metaphysics, epistemology, philosophy of mind, aesthetics etc.

[Anonymous No.11956793]

>>11956449

Yeah and in letter 7th he said he was trying to realize that political project when he was young and he underlines how his personal contribution to political philosophy was that of the introduction of philosopher-kings. The Laws are clearly his second best shot, and they have been heavily edited (possibly even completed) by Philip of Opus. Moreover, if you look into the history of the early academy and the accounts of Plato in Sicily, the model both Plato and his early students tried to install - and the model on which Platonic philosophers mostly acted upon through history - is that of the Republic, not that of the Laws.

>>11956665
The fact that the texts presents notions of ethics, metaphysics, epistemology, aesthetics and philosophy of mind is because Plato himself did see all those themes as intertwined. Also, do not forget that the perfect state is the mirror of the perfect man (in the republic soul-structure and city structure are aligned) and that they both replicate the structure of the cosmos (Timaeus) so that it is virtually impossible to argue separately of this or that branch of philosophy.

[Anonymous No.11956827]

>>11951074
The Republic and Symposium are his worst dialogues - they're barely philosophy

[Anonymous No.11957703]

>>11956793
We know that the Laws is the last treatise Plato wrote. Also, it is fair to say that what Plato describes in the Letter 7 is the failure of his tentative to realize the Republic at Syracuse. With these two informations, we can draw the conclusion that the Laws has been written and must be read as a "political program", while the Republic is an ideal city that is theoricaly impossible to attain, but where justice would be as high as humanly possible.

[Anonymous No.11957784]

>>11951558
Whether this can come to be or not, it is true in the heavens. Some line like this around the end of book 8 I believe? Let's not indulge issues of practicality when we are on the cusp of objective truth.

[Anonymous No.11957948]

i honestly believe that the truth is like the sun

[Anonymous No.11957971]

>>11957948
Well are you going to elaborate on that?

[Anonymous No.11958005]

>>11956449
>>11956793
The Republic is basically a book on education.

[Anonymous No.11958040]

>>11957948
i truly believe that the truth IS the sun

[Anonymous No.11958067]

>>11958040
You've got it all wrong, the truth is the SON.

[Anonymous No.11959279]

>>11951059
>Yes Socrates
>I agree Socrates
>Of course Socrates

Enjoy your shadows.

[Anonymous No.11959292]

>>11951059
I think he really nails the whole euthanasia thing. Communal orgies were cool too, but I'm not sure if venereal diseases existed in 4th century Athens.

[Anonymous No.11959303]

>>11958067
you're fucking hilarious.

[Anonymous No.11959872]

>>11959279

This was my whole problem with the book, the arguments just fall flat, and then the other characters agree, and then the topic is done. Fuck that, could they really not think of better objections?

[Anonymous No.11960245]

>>11959292
>Communal orgies
t. someone who never read plato

[Gabu No.11960342]

>>11951059
I agree with Plato in a lot of things too, i recommend for you read Tao Te King, the taoist book, his philosophy It has many similarities with platonism.

[king stannis baratheon first o(...) !9fB.6ikQAA No.11960386]

PLAY-DOH was the greatest fraud in the history of writing. FRIENDLY REMINDER that SOCK-RAT-TEASE was possessed by a demon that was transmitted to NEW HOSTS through LANGUAGE thanks to AIR IS TOTAL's folly.

[Anonymous No.11960391]

>>11960386
You need to die

[king stannis baratheon first o(...) !9fB.6ikQAA No.11960397]

>>11960391
valar morghulis

[Anonymous No.11960647]

>>11957971
read the fuking book m8 hahahhahaha this is lit hahahahahaha what the fuck are you doing niggg

[Anonymous No.11960682]

>>11951059
I know this is bait, but I just wanna say that the attack on art is just a strawman against emotivism and not a fair one at that

Oscar Wilde has the best response imo

[Anonymous No.11960702]

I wanna beat the shit out of plato

[Anonymous No.11960707]

>>11960682
It’s not an attack on art, it’s an understanding of how works of fiction corrupt the soul

[Anonymous No.11960913]

>>11960707
The soul is a myth. So is the mind, for that matter. All that exists are brain-states and wave forms.

[Anonymous No.11960967]

>>11960682
An anon in the other thread had a good point about how Greek poets were seen as a source of morality, such as Homer. Having citizens derive moral values from poets, who are two levels removed from truth, rather than philosophers who are most attuned to truth just doesn't make sense if you buy into Plato's system.

[Anonymous No.11960996]

>>11960913
>All that exists are things I've observed through my mind

[Anonymous No.11961020]

>>11960996
>I'll take "Not an argument" for $2500, Alex

[Anonymous No.11961027]

>>11961020
This ain't Ebay