/Catholicism/ general

[Anonymous No.13221425]

Thread #6

Ask questions, recommend books, discuss, anything related to the Gospels, the OT, the Church, her history and her teachings, but keep it text-based as this is /lit/. (As in, this is not the place to discuss Palestrina, or the siege of Damascus, or corruption under the Borgias, etc.).

Skeptics, non-believers, other Christians and religious groups, perennialists, pagans, all are welcome, but let's at least attempt to keep the discussion reasonably civil and elevated.

"Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle,
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil;
may God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God, cast into hell
Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl through the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen."
-Prayer to Saint Michael Archangel

Previous thread:
>>13191360

[Anonymous No.13221727]

>>13221425
Why does Catholicism have so many pagan ceremonies and rites?
Why do you make the sign of the cross?
Why do you worship Mary?

[Anonymous No.13221849]

>>13221727
Our ceremonies and rites are rooted in Judaism, developed with 2000 years of culture and the Gospel. Unsurprising, give
the Jewish roots of Christianity. The sign of the cross is a profession of faith through body language. We don't worship Mary. Accusing us of doing so is lazy, ignorant, and akin to Muslim polemic accusing Christians of being polytheists just because they don't want to bother with trying to really learn what the doctrine of the Trinity is.

[Anonymous No.13221859]

FUCK JANNIES
FUCK TRANNIES
FUCK CHRISTKEKS
FUCK CAST-IRON PAN ENTHUSIASTS

[Anonymous No.13221867]

>>13221859
no bully

[Anonymous No.13221876]

>>13221859
Cast iron pan enthusiasts?

[Anonymous No.13221892]

Been reading pic related (probably gonna finish today because I have a 24 hour work shift). Gotta say, I admire how St. John Paul the Great avoids turning this into a trite work of apologetics. Rather than going for the obvious defensive answers he actually provides some very deep thoughts on Catholicism and God. I miss the guy. We need more clergy like him.

[Anonymous No.13221896]

To pray is to accept defeat

[Anonymous No.13221912]

>>13221896
Why?

[Anonymous No.13221916]

>>13221849
>Our ceremonies and rites are rooted in Judaism, developed with 2000 years of culture and the Gospel.
ceremonies taken bodily from paganism.
- Some scholar has found that 75% of the rites and ceremonies of the Roman Church are of pagan origin.

- Note: Cardinal Newman, in his book, “The Development of the Christian Religion,” admits that ... “Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holidays and season of devotions, processions, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests and monks and nuns), images ... are all of pagan origin...” (Page 359).

>We don't worship Mary.
Does
"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
or
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus, O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
O God, whose only-begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal salvation; grant we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the most holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen."
Sound familiar? Mary, is not the mother of God, she is not a virgin and the Immaculate Conception is not a thing.

[Anonymous No.13221950]

>>13221912
Because for all who deny the struggle
The triumphant will overcome

Power pisses on the weak

[Anonymous No.13221956]

>>13221916
Yes, temples, oil lamps, incense, holidays and blessings didn't exist in Judaism.

As for Mary, the Ave Maria is literally adapted from two scriptural quotes. The biggest addition is the request for prayer, which still acknowledgement of the superiority of God, as we clearly do not think that she can do anything on her own, but that it is rather God that has agency here. As for her not being the mother of God, do you then suggest that Jesus isn't God? Finally, I'll let Catholic doctrine speak for itself:

"The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." - Catechism of the Catholic Church 971

[Anonymous No.13221981]

>>13221950
You fundamentally misunderstand prayer as being something done solely to acquire things. The primary goal of prayer is to draw near to God out of love. It is a conversation between Creator and creature. One should pray for the same reason that one talks with friends. Requests from God for something can be a part of that, but it is the acknowledgement by the creature that it is limited, and cannot overcome its limitations without one who is infinite. Even then powerful have prayed in the past, be it St. Pius V, St. Louis, Charles V, Constantine, or any other number of people who have been about as powerful as anyone could get to be in their time. To know one's limits isn't weakness. It's just not being delusional.

[Anonymous No.13221998]

>>13221876
>cast iron

[Anonymous No.13222003]

>>13221981
>The primary goal of prayer is to draw near to God out of love
isn't God omnipresent

[Anonymous No.13222010]

>>13221892
Why is he called holy?

[Anonymous No.13222021]

>>13221981
>prayer as being something done solely to acquire things
Well you pray to acquire the feel that youre drawn nearer god.

>It's just not being delusional.
Ironic. I find it pretty delusional to believe in cosmic father figure just because 2000year old institution told you.
I nor believe in god, nor believe in him not existing, but what I do believe that ''god'' is in our heads. Some takes pride in idea that he exists, so they pray to him. Others have killed their gods in their heads.

[Anonymous No.13222034]

כבוד לאלו שאוהבים את אלוהים, ואת בושה על מי להתנער ממנו.
Honor to those who love God, and shame on those who shun Him.
כבוד לאלה לציית לרצון של אלוהים, ובושה על מי לבגוד באלוהים.
Honor to those who obey the will of God, and shame on those who betray God.
כבוד לאלה המבקשים היא על אדיקות, ובושה על אלה המחפשים אלוהים.
Honor to those who quest is for piety, and shame on those who seek Godlessness.
כבוד לאלו שמכבדים את הוריהם, ובושה על אלה שמכעיסים אותם.
Honor to those who are respect their parents, and shame on those who dishonor them.
כבוד לאלה המסייעים אחד לשני, ובושה על אלה שמחפשים רווחים על חשבון אחרים.
Honor to those who help each other, and shame on those who seek gains at the expense of others.
כבוד לאלה ישר, בושה על מי לסחור שלמות עבור רווחים.
Honor to those who are honest, and shame on those who trade integrity for profits.
כבוד לאלה המקיימים ערכים נוצריים ומאבק קשה, ובושה על אלה המתפלשים בזבזנות ובהנאות.
Honor to those who uphold Christian values and hard struggle, and shame on those who wallow in extravagance and pleasures.

[Anonymous No.13222035]

>>13222003
Not in a literal physical sense, but in how close our relationship to him is. How much we are conformed to him. You can sit right next to a friend, but completely ignore them. You are still physically close, but until you engage and interact with that friend, in your heart you are distant.

>>13222010
As in, why is St. John Paul II in particular holy, or why are Pope's in general referred to by that title? To the former, because of his own life of sanctity and devotion to God. To the latter, because regardless of the personal moral and religious character of that Pope, the office to which he has been appointed is holy.

[Anonymous No.13222040]

>>13221956
Pagan holidays, pagan special seasons, tonsure, etc did not exist in Judaism, though there are probably some traditions from Judaism. Either way, Judaism is Pharisaism, the same doctrine Christ called out for adding man made commandments and traditions to the Word of God. I don't believe that Jesus is God, He is the Son of God.
>In the year 1931 the same pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is"the Mother of God"

This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431. This is a heresy contrary by Mary's own words. (Read Luke 1:46-49; John 2: l-5).

Also, can you direct me to the Ave Maria scriptural passages?

[Anonymous No.13222047]

>>13221859
FUCK cast iron bans.

[Anonymous No.13222052]

>>13222047
pans*

[Anonymous No.13222055]

>>13221727
>Why do you worship Mary?
We don't. God is the only being worth of worship.

We venerate Mary, and the saints.

[Anonymous No.13222062]

>>13222021
Prayer is not about feeling. The concept of spiritual desolation (where prayer is unpleasant and provides no comfort) is a recurring theme in many writings on Catholic spirituality, most famously perhaps in that of St. John of the Cross. It is expected that prayer may sometimes be an immense struggle, and that the mere "feeling" of being close to God is deceptive and should not be pursued as an end unto itself.

As for what I said about delusion, I was merely referring to the acknowledgement that we are finite, and therefore incapable of certain things, not to the whole enterprise of prayer or belief in God itself. I think people who overtly idealized strength are far too averse to the idea of acknowledging your own limitations because they fear that it is weakness, when it's really just being realistic about your own nature.

[Anonymous No.13222066]

>>13222040
How are either of those passages contrary?

[Anonymous No.13222070]

>>13222066
I suspect he doesn't understand the Trinity.

[Anonymous No.13222087]

>>13222066
Luke 1:46-49
If Mary was the Mother of God she would not need a Savior. If she was the Mother of God she would be perfect, but she is imperfect like every average Joe.
John 2:1-5
"Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?"

[Anonymous No.13222091]

>>13222062
They say prayer is not about feeling, but it is. It makes you feel certain way, thats why you do it.

Whats it about then if its not to acquire a certain state of mind? You pray to acquire thus its a selfish act

[Anonymous No.13222093]

>>13222035
So is it about bringing yourself to God, rather than attempting to get God to come to you? If that makes sense?

[Anonymous No.13222108]

>>13222040
If you outright reject the divinity of Christ, then you've got a far more fundamental disagreement with us than the doctrine of Mary as the mother of God. You should address that first, because trying to claim that she isn't so to a Catholic is tantamount to a denial of the Incarnation and Christ's divinity, which I think are far more foundational doctrines.

As for the two scripture passages from which the Ave Maria is drawn, they are Luke 1:28, which is Gabriel's greeting to Mary (often translated as "Hail favored one, the Lord is with you") and then St. Elizabeth's words to her in Luke 1:41-42 ("Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.") They most certainly do not worship her in saying these things, and neither do we in repeating them. Additionally, St. Elizabeth in that same chapter refers to Mary as "mother of my Lord" and her child (St. John the Baptist) literally leaps for joy in her womb at the sound of Mary's voice. Who exactly is the Lord, if not God? And if St. John the Baptist as a fetus is willing to show such immense love and reverence for Mary, we would not be wrong in following his example. He was not worshipping her, and neither is any Catholic who obeys Church teaching.

[Anonymous No.13222123]

>>13222087
I thought the doctrine says she still may have had the inclination to sin despite being free from original sin. Also she would still have God to thank for that.

[Anonymous No.13222134]

>>13222091
>They say prayer is not about feeling, but it is. It makes you feel certain way, thats why you do it.
You can't just assert that we pray for a certain reason in blatant contradiction tothe immense body of Catholic tradition that says otherwise and expect for me to take that seriously.

>Whats it about then if its not to acquire a certain state of mind? You pray to acquire thus its a selfish act
It is not about a state of mind, nor is it a selfish act, because it does not seek to acquire personal gain in a way that deprives anyone of anything else.

>>13222093
I guess I'd say it's both, in a sense? Ultimately it is we who are changed by prayer, not God, but nevertheless he is the one who comes to us and makes the first love through grace, and he often comes to our lowly level to draw us closer to him.

[Anonymous No.13222142]

>>13222087
She still needed a savior. God still needed to intervene in her life to make her sinless and grant her salvation. The Immaculate Conception is the merit of Christ, won through his cross and resurrection, brought back to the moment of her conception by God.

[Anonymous No.13222148]

>>13222108
Good thing /lit/ exists lol, I'll have rethink my stance. I've been thinking for a bit but I've been torn on whether to be Catholic or not. One more question, is paedophilia common in the Catholic churches or is it just a meme?

[Anonymous No.13222161]

>>13222134

>it does not seek to acquire personal gain in a way that deprives anyone of anything else.
But it does. If it made you feel nothing you wouldnt pray, nor worship god. Prayer makes you feel at peace with yourself, not with god and not with other human being. you do it because its a meditation for your mind and makes you feel good. Youre addicted to it.

[Anonymous No.13222178]

>>13222148
Is it a meme? Yes and no. I will not deny that there were priests who did horrible things and were protected for far too long. That majority of these cases seem to be in the 60s and 70s. For this, Catholics who defended and protected these priests deserve the harshest condemnation. However, the vast majority of priests are not guilty of this, and this seems to be a problem pervasive through most professions that have some sort of caretaking element. Teachers actually have a higher rate of sexual abuse than priests do, yet we do not stereotype teachers in the same way. That of course doesn't excuse these priests or their protectors, but rather it shows that the image that every priest is salivating over little boys is grossly unfair to the large number of good men who simply wish to serve God.

[Anonymous No.13222236]

>>13222161
You are again just boldly asserting things about prayer or the mental state of othose who pray without anything to support you. Anyone who prays will tell you that it can often not make you feel nothing at all on an emotional level, or that it can be something very hard to get yourself to do. If I were addicted to prayer, I would not ever struggle with how little I pray sometimes, nor would I ever confess that sin. But I do, and I think most Catholics would admit that it is not easy for them to consistently pray.

[Anonymous No.13222271]

>>13222236
Praying too little is a sin then? People pray because of fear of mising or to collect certain quota of prayers?
If not, what makes you pray then? Whats the trigger in your brain that tells you to drop on your knees and talk in your head?

[Anonymous No.13222289]

>>13222271
There is no specific "quantity" of prayer that I am trying to achieve; it is not a quota and prayer is not an exact science. Nevertheless, if I never talk to God it is clear that I do not do so enough. As for what makes me pray, it is the same as what makes me Catholic. It's a desire to draw closer to God.

[Anonymous No.13222303]

>>13222289
isnt desire a sin? Because it makes you enjoy it by yourself, you dont share your joy with others when you pray. wouldnt being closer to god just mean to be a good person in general?

[Anonymous No.13222313]

>>13222303
You don't seem to understand Christianity...

[Anonymous No.13222347]

>>13222303
Desire is inherently wrong in Buddhism, ot Christianity. The wrongness of desire is determined by what is the object of that desire. Do you desire to rape and murder? Then that desire is wrong. Do you desire to love your neighbor? That desire is good.

If prayer makes you desire only to enooy God alone to the exclusion of others, then there is something seriously wrong with how you are praying. It should strengthen the wish to see others also come to God, like a sick ma who has found a cure hoping to share that cure with others. Being a good person matters, but it isn't a totality of a person's relationship with God. Friends should both converse AND do things they both enjoy together. Doing only one of those things would create and incomplete and possibly hollow friendship. So it is with God.

>>13222313
Then help him understand. If you criticize, but do nothing to help, then you are being useless. Teaching someone about the Gospel is an easy enough act of love.

[Anonymous No.13222373]

>>13222347
And for god, does he care about me praying? If I devoted my life helping others, making myself better person, but I ignored or denied his excistence, would I go to hell?

[Anonymous No.13222388]

>>13222373
If you have no reason to not believe in God (principally, ignorance), then yes, because you would not want what heaven is, which is beholding the face of your Creator, in an exchange of love between yourself, God, and all the other saints. If you are someone with absolutely no desire for God, you would get what you hoped for, which is to be cut off from God. That is hell.

[Anonymous No.13222397]

>>13221425
Religion isn't philosophy.

[Anonymous No.13222412]

>>13222388
well that makes christianity a scary religion. you either be an active part of it, or youre going to burn.
Makes me think how many people ''worship'' god out of fear...

[Anonymous No.13222413]

>>13222397
And?

[Anonymous No.13222416]

How will catholics deal with the sodomy problem?

[Anonymous No.13222441]

>>13222416
1 blowjob (donor or recipient) = 6 months hellfire (12 if same sex)

[Anonymous No.13222456]

>>13221425
I'm curious about a few things within the Catholic church.
1. Why read a missile over the bible it's self?

2. What books are in the Catholic bible that are not in the KJVand and what do these cover

3. If the pope is the head of the church, is he supposed to act in Jesus' stead? If so, why would you day at a man to the same level of power as Jesus?

4. Purgatory. Is it mentioned in the books not in the KJV?

5. Is Mary deified and considered as being without sin? Do Catholics pray to her as some claim?

I'm a Baptist. I have no wish to argue, I am curious about the Catholic church as I don't know much about their beliefs

[Anonymous No.13222463]

>>13222412
It is "scary" in the sense that telling someone that if they eat a ton of big macs, they're gonnaget disgustingly fat. Christianity is the opportunity to engage with the greatest thing that is, a being of infinite greatness that loves you so much He is willing to join your species, suffer, and die for you. This being, which we call God, is the fulfillment of all that you are as a human. This comes with the admonition that if you reject this being, you will get exactly what you want.

As for people worshipping in God out of fear, this is at best a starting point for someone, but fear alone will not sustain them for long. Nevertheless, going back to my earlier analogy, would you condemn someone for wanting to be healthier out of fear of being fat and unhealthy? Would you condemn someone who wants to become educated out of fear of being ignorant and stupid? Fear is not enough to keep someone going forever, but it can be a very productive starting point, and it is not inherently bad.

[Anonymous No.13222472]

>>13222416
What do you mean by the "sodomy problem"?

[Anonymous No.13222476]

>>13222472
Society seems accepting of these degenerate scum. Just fucking look at pride. They should be strung up not accepted as human beings.

[Anonymous No.13222562]

>>13222456
>Why read a missile over the bible it's self?
what?

[Anonymous No.13222567]

>>13222562
Catholic missiles I have heard from Catholics that these are often read over the bible it's self

[Anonymous No.13222569]

>>13222476
The solution is the same as for all sin. Proclaim the Gospel to the world.

>>13222456
>1
I assume you mean why read a missal? It's not meant to be a replacement to scripture. It's just a book containing the text of the prayers of the Mass. So you'd read from a missal a means of participating in the Mass. Same reason why you would read a hymnal. It has songs to praise God that you are trying to sing. That said, the hymnal is not intended to replace the Bible, and neither are missals.

>2.
The Deuterocanonical books were translated and published in the KJV.

>3.
The Pope has the same role of governance that St. Peter did. He is not on the same level of power as Christ.

>4.
It is most explicitly referred to in 2 Maccabees. A further look into purgatory in scripture can be found here: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-purgatory-in-the-bible..

>5.
Mary is not considered divine, nor is she worshiped. The Church teaches that she is to be shown very high respect, but adoration and worship are for God alone. We hold that she is sinless. She is prayed to, but not as a deity, but as a means of asking her to pray for us to God. The most famous prayer to Mary ends with the words "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." It is understood that she does not do anything of her own authority or power. We ask her, and other saints, for intercession because as it says in James 5:16, "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."

[Anonymous No.13222579]

>>13221425
Consider this a confession


How does one deal with being an inferior life form?

I was raised Christian, Father was Catholic, Mother was Protestant. I was raised to love and admire all Aryan religions as well, to see the recurring archetypal content on every religion. I am good looking (an 8-9/10), 6 ft 3, intelligent, learnt confidence in high school where previously I always felt somewhat inferior and insecure as a child.

I have gone throughout life knowing myself better than most and trying to be meek. Recently through some turn of events which I believe I had always somewhat known unconsciously which I do not however wish to go into has become conscious to myself. I am now once again that inferior being I was once as a child. I understand myself well yet cannot move on from this, I am not confused and what I know is a certainty. I will not rationalise my own sin as so many men have done as tempting as it may be. I have always been absolutely honest with myself.

I now am stuck as so many men are in some way or another psychologically. I know God but he shall not help me for I fear it would only be the falsity of myself which somehow helps me, only making that which has become conscious into the unconscious to work its way and effect me unknowingly in a negative light.

Please what shall I do? There is more of course but this is all that is necessary and true.

[Anonymous No.13222593]

>tfw constant fear of ending up in hell

[Anonymous No.13222595]

>>13222593
Why what have you done?

[Anonymous No.13222612]

>>13222456
1. Church missals are instructions for prayer, they're not a competitor to or replacement of the bible. Missals and scripture don't serve the same function.

2. They're called the "deuterocanonicals" and this includes parts of Daniel and Esther. Luther had them removed even though they were considered canon in the first Christian centuries up until the 16th century. He did this because the later Jews had a different canon but even the Baptist scholar Lee MacDonald affirms that there is no evidence to support the idea that the Jews had a different canon from the Septuagint between the period of the second century BC to the second century AD. As far as what they cover, you'll have to read them because I don't have a checklist of every possible teaching that can be gotten from them.

3. The pope is the head of the Church on earth, but Jesus is still the king. When Jesus gives Peter the "keys to the kingdom" what he's doing is instituting a stewardship. The keys are a reference to Isaiah 22 and in that chapter we see a similar event.

In the Davidic kingdom, the king appointed a cabinet of ministers (1 Kgs 4:1-6; 2Kgs 18:37). Of these ministers, one was elevated to a unique status. His authority was second only to that of the king, who gave him the authority over all other minsters and everyone else in the kingdom. This was a common practice in the Near East. For example, when Joseph became the prime minister of Egypt, Pharaoh said, "You shall be over my house [dynasty and kingdom], and all my people shall order themselves as you command; only as regards the throne will I be greater than you ... I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man shall lift up hand or foot in all the land of Egypt" (Gen 41:40,44). The Symbol of Joseph's office was the signet ring that Pharaoh took from his hand and put it on Joseph's hand (Gen 41:42)

David ruled from 1010 to 970 BC. However, his dynasty continued after his death. Hezekiah became the king of Judah at the age of 25 approximately 265 years after King David's death. Hezekiah's rule from 715 to 687 was marked by a great religious reform. It was during his reign that Shebna, the prime minister or royal steward (Is 22:15) was removed from his office:

Behold, the Lord will hurl you away violently, O you strong man ... I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station" (Is 22:17, 19).

Eliakim will be installed in his place as prime minister (Is 22:20-22). The symbol of that office is "the key of the house of David" (Is 22:22). The point of Jesus' reference to Isaiah 22 is to indicate that Peter will also be given an office in Jesus' kingdom, which is his Church. That office will continue as long as Jesus' kingdom on earth continues. Jesus is the new Moses. Like the first Moses, Jesus established a priestly hierarchy in his kingdom. Peter and his successors are the chief ministers in that kingdom, the rock upon which Jesus will build his Church.

[Anonymous No.13222617]

>>13222569
I appreciate the response. Yes, Missal sorry for the misspelling.

In regards to accepted Catholic books, im referring to things like Maccabees. My KJV does not have these so I was wondering what was in them. Seems purgatory is there. I've been considering giving them a read. I've read chunks of some of the apocraphyl books for similar curiosity

Why is Mary considered sinless? Is the idea that God would only be brought into the world by a pure woman?
I can understand the asking her to pray for you. No different than asking a friend to pray for you, essentially

Also, are indulgences still a thing? I've heard from some they are, from others, no. If they are, how is it justified?

Again thanks for the response. I am not knowledgeable in Catholicism and I question sites that have info about the Catholic church as to it's accuracy

[Anonymous No.13222618]

>>13222456
>>13222612
4. You'll find a reference to it at 2 Maccabees 12:39-45

5. Mary is deified by anyone. To be a deified would be to make her god, but there's only one God. To be born without sin isn't to be made a god.

When the Persons of the Blessed Trinity determined that the divine Word would assume human nature in the womb of the Virgin Mary, it was resolved that she would be made sinless from the moment of her conception so she could be a fitting vessel for God’s holy presence.

The “new Adam” (Rom 5:12-21) would utterly defeat the devil in collaboration with the “new Eve,” his mother.God predicted this victory over Satan through her son when he told the serpent:
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel” (Gen 3:15).

If Mary had been infected by original sin, even for a single instant, it would have lessened her Son’s redemptive mission, since the devil could boast, “I had your mother for that instant.”

The New Testament depicts Mary as the true ark of the covenant (Lk 1:35; 39-56; Rev 11:19-12:1-2). The ark of the Old Testament that prefigured Mary was the holiest object in ancient Israel because it contained, namely, the manna from heaven, the tablets of the law and the rod of Aaron’s priesthood. A parallel is evident in regard to Mary’s womb, which housed the supernatural bread from heaven, the lawgiver of the New Covenant and the eternal high priest. Furthermore, another parallel exists between the care that God commanded to be taken in building the ark of the covenant and the care the Blessed Trinity took in forming the immaculate soul of Mary so she could become a suitable tabernacle for the divine Son (Ex 25:10-26; 16:34; Num 17:10; Heb 9:4).

The angel Gabriel addressed Mary in a most extraordinary manner using the title “full of grace” (Lk 1:28). The Greek word translated “full of grace” in its verb form indicates a perfection of grace, providing a biblical basis for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

A question arose. If Mary had no sin, then she had nothing to be saved from.Yet, she identifies God as her “savior” (Lk 1:47). This created a dilemma until the distinction was made between a preventative as opposed to a curative redemption.Mary was redeemed preventatively by the merits of her son, so she never contracted the malady of sin.We are redeemed curatively, that is, we inherit original sin, but Jesus’ merits heal us from it.

[Anonymous No.13222628]

>>13222595
lifelong addiction issues, brain problems, and a constant fear that no matter what I do it won't be enough on the day of judgement

[Anonymous No.13222631]

>>13222593
>tfw no fear of ending up in hell

[Anonymous No.13222647]

>>13222618
>Mary is deified by anyone.
Mary isn't deified by anything, rather.

[Anonymous No.13222680]

>>13222628
Do you struggle with feelings of inferiority anon? And not the mainstream view of the psychoanalytical inferiority but inferiority in and of itself.

[Anonymous No.13222731]

>>13222579
If you view yourself as superior than others, then you are idolizing yourself. Do not seek to return to this state of mind. Pride was the sin that caused Satan's fall.

[Anonymous No.13222767]

>>13222731
Pride is not an inherently bad thing anon, however too much of it becomes a sin. Anon I was by all means better than most people, how can I not be aware of it? I did not think other people bad but just simple of the masses. I still believe I am better than most in the features I have laid out to you anon however they do not makeup for what I have become aware of.

[Anonymous No.13222771]

>>13222731
And no anon, I did not view myself as the ideal as the ideal is sacred and to individualise it would be to carnalize the sacred.

[Anonymous No.13222802]

>>13222767
Anon, pray the litany of humility.

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.

From the desire of being loved...
From the desire of being extolled ...
From the desire of being honored ...
From the desire of being praised ...
From the desire of being preferred to others...
From the desire of being consulted ...
From the desire of being approved ...
From the fear of being humiliated ...
From the fear of being despised...
From the fear of suffering rebukes ...
From the fear of being calumniated ...
From the fear of being forgotten ...
From the fear of being ridiculed ...
From the fear of being wronged ...
From the fear of being suspected ...

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I ...
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease ...
That others may be chosen and I set aside ...
That others may be praised and I unnoticed ...
That others may be preferred to me in everything...
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…

[Anonymous No.13222804]

>>13222680
yes, very much so.

[Anonymous No.13222865]

>>13222802
I utterly believe in the Christian self rejection for the greater good but this takes it too far anon.

[Anonymous No.13222881]

>>13222804
It is tied to a certain event likely or a period of events or feelings in which you must face somehow. I could not recommend reading Jung high enough. However anon it will be enough if you push through, become dominant to women and peoples, know yourself, become meek but accept yourself as a good person and achieve that which makes you a good person anon. I cannot say anything more without further knowledge.

[Anonymous No.13222963]

>haven't been to confession in years
>fapped to traps, blasphemed the church, and committed all sorts of other sins
>still hold angst against the church for being so worthless in modern times
>my protestant father is getting sick
>my catholic mom started going to an evangelical church
Pray for my family brehs

[Anonymous No.13222998]

>>13222963
No, you must fix it yourself. Go to confession, confess everything need not worry about the Priest or Church though still try to find a good one the confession has more relation to you than to him. Read the Bible and make prayers. Visit your father and tell him you love him and have rejected Satan and accepted God Jesus Christ our saviour into your heart, even if you have not or have not completely you should do this out of the kindness of your heart for your Dear Father. Tell the same thing to your Mother and explain to her why she should not become an evangelical, comfort her in regards to your Father. Everything else is /Sig/. Get your life on track, start lifting weights, going for jogs, going out like to Opera (any music convention preferably classical), Church services even if it is a "modern" Church just as long as it is a normal enough service and the church is beautiful, go to Church shows like the choir, go to poetry session, start reading good literature like the ancient religions and Epic's as well as modern great's like Demons, read philosophy remember start with the Greeks, get a job, find a good women at any of the previous conventions stated or while doing something random like said Jog. Clean your room, read Mein Kampf, browse 4chan less. Travel even if it isn't very far.

Become a Man anon.

[Anonymous No.13223095]

>>13221425
Is it okay to be in love with a man as long as I don't engage in sodomy and other sexual behavior? Or should I try to fall out of love or whatever?

[Anonymous No.13223111]

>>13223095
Scrupulosity is a sin

[Anonymous No.13223186]

Has anyone here been paying attention to the Sohrab Ahmari/David French disagreement that took place in First Things and on Twitter? I bring it up because Ahmari's a pretty hardcore Catholic and he's the most public person so far to make the case that Catholicism is largely incompatible with Enlightenment-type Liberalism. This also relates to debates that have been had recently about Church-State relations and integralism.

[Anonymous No.13223221]

>>13223111
>don't do x y or z or you will burn for eternity
>btw worrying about it also means you'll burn for eternity :))>>13223186

[Anonymous No.13223227]

>>13223186
I would like to know exactly what he means by liberalism. Normally when I hear it I think of laissez-faire economics and that would certainly not be incompatible with Church teaching. If he's talking about things like the separation of church and state then it wouldn't be much of a debate because that's actually been condemned as a heresy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanism_(heresy)

[Anonymous No.13223231]

>>13223221
I'm just tired of constantly seeing "is X a sin?" It's boring.

[Anonymous No.13223252]

>believe in me or you burn in hell
>btw i will provide no evidence that i exist

[Anonymous No.13223258]

*rapes a little boy*
sup bros

[Anonymous No.13223259]

>>13222416
By capitalizing on the scandal by making endless YouTube videos about it fanning the flames of outrage without ever fixing the problem.
>Don't worry guys, one day we will storm the Vatican! But in the mean time, don't forget to subscribe to my Patreon!

[Anonymous No.13223267]

well now that homos are accepted by the church, have you married a fellow catholicbro yet?

[Anonymous No.13223277]

any other /catholic bros/ like watching the young pope and reading chesterton while cuddling with your homosexual husband?

[Anonymous No.13223285]

>>13223252
>no evidence

LOL

[Anonymous No.13223290]

>no evidence

LOL

[Anonymous No.13223292]

>>13221859
>FUCK CAST-IRON PAN ENTHUSIASTS
What the hell

[Anonymous No.13223297]

>>13221912
It's a death grips lyric

[Anonymous No.13223299]

Every time I look at you I don't understand
Why you let the things you did get so out of hand.
You'd have managed better if you'd had it planned.
Why'd you choose such a backward time in such a strange land?
If you'd come today you could have reached a whole nation.
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication.
Don't you get me wrong.
I only want to know.
Tell me what you think about your friends at the top.
Who'd you think besides yourself's the pick of the crop?
Buddha, was he where it's at? Is he where you are?
Could Mohammed move a mountain, or was that just PR?
Did you mean to die like that? Was that a mistake, or
Did you know your messy death would be a record breaker?
Don't you get me wrong.
I only want to know.

[Anonymous No.13223301]

>>13222062
>Prayer is not about feeling. The concept of spiritual desolation (where prayer is unpleasant and provides no comfort) is a recurring theme in many writings on Catholic spirituality, most famously perhaps in that of St. John of the Cross. It is expected that prayer may sometimes be an immense struggle, and that the mere "feeling" of being close to God is deceptive and should not be pursued as an end unto itself.
Thanks for posting this brother

[Anonymous No.13223306]

>>13223186
lmao look up Bishop William Richardson
He has a 10 or 11 part lecture series that mostly is about liberalism and freemasonry

[Anonymous No.13223307]

2 Therefore when thou dost an almsdeed, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honoured by men. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

3 But when thou dost alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth.

4 That thy alms may be in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.

5 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.

7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.

8 Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him.

9 Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our supersubstantial bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

[Anonymous No.13223331]

>>13223252
>btw i will provide no evidence that i exist
According to the Argument of Beauty, your being and posting on /lit/ proves [a] god exists.

[Anonymous No.13223401]

what is /cath/ listening to?
I've recently discovered sacred harp singing and become somewhat addicted to it.

[Anonymous No.13223409]

>>13223290
>>13223285
wow
this is the evidence cathocucks present
literally ghost sighting tier

[Anonymous No.13223457]

>>13223401
the sound of a small boy sucking my weiner and a chesterton audiobook

[Anonymous No.13223480]

>>13223401
https://youtu.be/6mcxEtyEUw4
https://youtu.be/iT-ZAAi4UQQ
https://youtu.be/ykuF8h7sFwI
a small sample of some of my favorites

the last one being probably the single most profound piece of music I have ever encountered so far

[Anonymous No.13223486]

I am Catholic and don't get me wrong these threads are good, but it seems like no one is actually discussing interesting Catholic artists, thinkers, philosophers, theologians, etc. The past few threads have just been almost all basic doctrinal questions, reddit-tier religion debates, or shilling the same books again and again. It's better to create Catholic threads less frequently and have them be of better quality than instantly creating a new one each time the thread archives. I noticed that around 6 months ago when the Catholic threads were less frequent, they were better since people actually had unique books accumulated to discuss and weren't just trying to come up with new stuff every thread if there wasn't stuff to discuss.

[Anonymous No.13223498]

>>13223486
>*fucks a little boy*

[Anonymous No.13223561]

>>13223486
I do somewhat agree. Sometimes someone will actually try to bring up Catholic literature, or a non-Catholic will ask a genuinely interesting question. This thread has pretty much only had >>13221892 mentioning a very good book by St. John Paul II. Come on guys, let's actually talk about things that we're reading. Even those who aren't Catholic surely have a Catholic book they like. Divine Comedy? Anyone?

[Anonymous No.13223609]

I have an unusual suggestion for the philosophically inclined Catholics. Confucius. As far as eastern schools of thought go, Confucianism seems like one of the ones with the most common ground with the faith. Perhaps it has less to say metaphysical than other Greek philosophy did, but it remains very interesting. When the first Jesuit reached China they found that Confucians were the easiest to evangelize. Matteo Ricci, who's cause for canonization is open, even translated the Analects of Confucius into Latin.

[Anonymous No.13223620]

>>13223480
is carmina burana /cath aproved?

[Anonymous No.13223621]

>>13223609
confucius doesn't endorse homosexuality and is thus not in line with catholic beliefs.

[Anonymous No.13223622]

>>13223561
I'm reading the Paradiso right now

[Anonymous No.13223629]

>>13223622
How does it compare to the rest of the Divine Comedy for you? I've always found it curious that the Inferno overshadows the other two thirds of it.

[Anonymous No.13223632]

>>13223620
I mean, it's a secular piece, but it's not condemned by the church or anything

[Anonymous No.13223655]

>>13223621
Your lazy attempt at provocation aside, a philosopher need not be 100% in line with Church teaching to be of use to Catholics, or else we would never read Aristotle, Plato, Epictetus, Aurelius, Avicenna, Averroes, etc.

[Anonymous No.13223682]

>>13223655
aristotle and plato had sex with male children so they are pretty in line with catholicism.

[Anonymous No.13223686]

>>13221425
P E D O

[Anonymous No.13223701]

Why do catholics loved so much the mother of Jesus? Sometimes, I think the Virgin Mary is the main caracter of the Catholicism.

[Anonymous No.13223702]

>>13223629
It's harder for me than the other two due to all the theological questions and references. The Inferno has the best imagery.

[Anonymous No.13223705]

>>13221425
I too love boipussy (I should...I have one), but then again I do not pretend to be anyone’s spiritual father. How do you reconcile the abundance of rapists/homosexuals/pederasts/and pedophiles within the clergy as well as the church’s impotent/inefficient/lack of response to the matter? The church does, after all, condemn rape/homosexuality/pederasty/and pedophilia, right?

[Anonymous No.13223710]

>>13223705
>The church does, after all, condemn rape/homosexuality/pederasty/and pedophilia, right?
no

[Anonymous No.13223711]

>>13223682
No they didn't

[Anonymous No.13223733]

>>13223711
then they're not very catholic

[Anonymous No.13223736]

>>13223733
Well yeah they were pagans

[Anonymous No.13223820]

>>13223701
With Our Lady we can get closer to Our Lord than without her. There are a lot of medieval writings on her.

[Anonymous No.13223857]

>>13223682
False. Plato and Aristotle called it contrary to nature.

[Anonymous No.13223862]

>>13223409
>present physical evidence of God acting the world that's been both photographed and studied
>ghost sighting tier

Atheists are every bit as delusional and immune to reason as they accuse Christians of being.

[Anonymous No.13223864]

>>13223862
>cathocucks seriously believe in artifacts

[Anonymous No.13223867]

>>13223710
Well fuck you guys then, you degenrate pieces of shit. Hope you all burn in hell you fucking rapist faggot kiddie porn watching subhumans. May as well be Muslims.

[Anonymous No.13223869]

>>13223867
>May as well be Muslims.
muslims hate gays, while catholics support homosexuality and allow gays to be priests.

[Anonymous No.13223875]

>>13223869
Welp, looks like I’m converting. No wonder Catholicism is dying out. Absolute degeneracy.

[Anonymous No.13223876]

>>13223864
Don't you get it yet? It's all real. All the apparitions, all the miracles, all the healings, all the visions and prophecies. Every single bit of it is real, at least that which has been officially confirmed by the Church. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but it doesn't matter. It's real whether you want it to be or not.

[Anonymous No.13223878]

>>13223875
good riddance, we don't want any nazis in our religion!

[Anonymous No.13223884]

>>13223876
the artifacts are made up larp bullshit. of course the church would confirm their own larps.

[Anonymous No.13223886]

>>13223884
Why don't you do some research for yourself and see that I'm right? Something as simple as going to Wikipedia. It's not hard.

[Anonymous No.13223897]

>>13223886
do you know how many separate skin fragments have been claimed to be christ's foreskin over the years?

[Anonymous No.13223902]

>>13223897
That's why I said "verified by the Church." Believe it or not, the Church is very scrupulous about this sort of thing. They only verify what they can be absolutely certain of.

[Anonymous No.13223923]

>>13223902
>verified by the Church
which one? orthodox catholics and roman catholics both claim ownership of the seamless robe.
also, care to explain how they knew the prepuce was christ's even though it went missing for centuries?

[Anonymous No.13223976]

What is the best translation of Confessions?

[Anonymous No.13224130]

>>13223976
I have Henry Chadwick's translation and it's fairly decent, I'm not a scholar or anything though.

[Anonymous No.13224159]

>>13223976
I have a translation by John K. Ryan in the new Image, Classics series. From what I've read it seems to be a lauded translation and i'm not sure if all editions of Confessions have an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat but this one does.

[Anonymous No.13224382]

is it common to feel mortal terror when thinking about God, or of ending up in Hell?

[Anonymous No.13224453]

I'm looking for recommendations for Catholic novels. Recently I've enjoyed
> Lord of the World by Robert Benson
> Diary of a Country Priest by Georges Bernanos

[Anonymous No.13224527]

>>13224453
Have you read any GK Chesterton? The Ball and the Cross is excellent.

[Anonymous No.13224655]

>>13224453
I'd recommend Quo Vadis and Walker Percy's works. MacDonald's There and Back has blown my mind lately as well, he wasn't Catholic but hit excellent theological notes- the house is a curiously good symbol of the barque of peter.

[Anonymous No.13224768]

>>13224453
Graham Greene's The Power and the Glory
Shusaku Endo's The Samurai
Sigrid Undset's Kristin Lavransdatter trilogy
Evelyn Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy
Leon Bloy's The Woman Who Was Poor

[Anonymous No.13225051]

[Anonymous No.13225580]

>>13223867
>>13223869
>>13223875
>>13223710
Don't go to a 4chan bait poster for your theology. The Church has condemned homosexuality and always will.

[Anonymous No.13225583]

>>13225580
Based. As a fag I hate diluted "christians", like don't pretend you don't want me dead just to appease the modern world.

[Anonymous No.13225590]

>>13225583
Nobody wants you dead, they just want you to stop being a fag. I don't know why people like you treat any sort of opposition to your lifestyle as a threat your existence. There's no rational basis for it.

[Anonymous No.13225594]

>>13225590
They do it because caricaturing Catholic doctrine is less work than actually responding to it.

[Anonymous No.13225617]

>>13225590
>yfw

[Anonymous No.13225636]

Any opinions on the state of protestants?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LtF34MrsfI

I think he would come off much more honestly and I might even respect him a bit if he said something along the lines of "I just want to turn people into Christians, and some people respond more positively to wealthy people." It would be in the same vein as the Catholic justification for having large and elaborate buildings, it's because beauty attracts.

[Anonymous No.13225644]

>>13225636
American protestants have given Christianity such a bad image. Them and the Spanish Inquisition.

[Anonymous No.13225672]

>>13225644
Spanish Inquisition didn't do much damage, more the English propaganda about it.

[Anonymous No.13225690]

>>13225590
A life of chastity as a layman sounds fucking awful

[Anonymous No.13225706]

>>13225672
If anything it was a positive thing since it took punishments away from monarchs who had no check on their power and often inflicted worse punishments. It's why it wasn't uncommon to see criminals arrested for things like robbery to come out as heretics while they were in prison, it's because they preferred to be tried by the Church.

[Anonymous No.13225711]

>>13225690
That's because you're a cumbrain. You've been conditioned by a society with extremely unhealthy views on sex.

[Anonymous No.13225728]

>>13225711
Insult me however you want; I'm not going to delude myself into becoming an insufferable reddit NoFapper.
Sexual repression is a miserable business.

[Anonymous No.13225737]

>>13225728
Imagine reducing all religious chastity to "reddit NoFap." Chastity is not a strictly modern phenomenon, nor is it restricted to Christians or the west.

[Anonymous No.13225741]

>>13225728
I'm not insulting you. If you think a life of chastity sounds awful that means you're probably a cumbrain or at least have some unhealthy views on sex. I never find the truth insulting.

[Anonymous No.13225755]

>>13225741
I don't find it congruent with myself or a virtue particularly conducive to my achievement of eudaimonia.
I can see how it can for others, but I find sexual moderation more apt for myself.

[Anonymous No.13225761]

>>13225755
Chastity IS sexual moderation. As I've said, you've been conditioned by a society in such a way and the Overton window has moved so far that you can't even recognize the medium as anything but extreme.

[Anonymous No.13225772]

>>13223701
maybe this pic answer your question.

[Anonymous No.13225777]

>>13225755
How can you know if you have never tried it?

[Anonymous No.13225778]

>>13225761
What is on the other side of the extreme from sexual promiscuity if not chastity?
It is also not the only form of sexual moderation.

[Anonymous No.13225783]

>>13225777
I have.

[Anonymous No.13225785]

>>13225778
If you want extreme you can have a look at Tolstoy's Kreutzer Sonata. He argues that we should never have sex, even with our wives.

[Anonymous No.13225788]

>>13225783
How can you have tried a lifetime of chastity if you are still alive?

[Anonymous No.13225797]

>>13225788
My experiences thus far did little but exacerbate neuroticism. A lifetime of abstinence is not something I want to try out. Especially when I am not even a man of faith.
>>13225785
I think we may have a different definition of chastity.

[Anonymous No.13225804]

>>13225797
I define chastity as sexual moderation in accordance with nature. Essentially, any sex that is open to procreation in the context of marriage is licit. Every one of us is called to be chaste.

[Anonymous No.13225814]

>>13225804
For a faggot that is still a life of complete abstinence.

[Anonymous No.13225816]

>>13223701
She is not the main character. Any basic reading of Catholic teaching will show that. As for her being so well loved, I refer you to St. John the Baptist leaping in his mother's womb at the sound of Mary's voice. If he did that before even being born, shoukd we not too show her great reverence?

[Anonymous No.13225817]

>>13221859
>cast-iron pan enthusiasts
You know cast-iron torture devices were a favorite of the inquisition right? Also, hate condemns you rather than the acts. You must do god's will, but must not allow yourself to be a servant of the underworld. Actions have no barring on the state of your soul when doing God's will.

[Anonymous No.13225819]

>>13225797
Granted, chastity may not be the best course for you. You may find a life of moderate or immoderate sexual activity more suitable to your happiness. But then, this has nothing to do with faith in any case: the Christian doctrine does not disavow unchastity according to the measure of happiness it brings--so why are you here?

[Anonymous No.13225821]

>>13225814
As is proper.

[Anonymous No.13225829]

>>13225821
As it not desired by me at all, or believed to be a particularly prosperous existence. Note I do not try to convince you of anything particularly, if I did believe in God, and was a Christian, I of course would be completely abstinent.
>>13225819
I was just scrolling through /lit/ and saw some of the discussion on here. Felt like joining in. Catholics tend to be more interesting to discuss such matters with; there's a bit more meat behind their argument.

[Anonymous No.13225840]

>>13225829
>if I did believe in God, and was a Christian, I of course would be completely abstinent.

from ecclesiastes:

>Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain[a] life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun.

[Anonymous No.13225845]

>>13225840
I believe you may have missed certain posts.
I'm afraid I am not that way inclined.

[Anonymous No.13225859]

>>13225845
indeed, I've just arrive here.
Anyway read ecclesiastes, really good book.

[Anonymous No.13225863]

>>13225859
I've got the Norton Critical KJV on my shelf; I will someday.

[Anonymous No.13225892]

>>13225829
The question of whether sexual activity is or is not conducive to health and happiness on an individual or societal level is one for science and it is certainly still up for debate. But for a Christian the real concern is none of these; the moment of interest is whether or not there is Spite in one's actions, whether in seeking our own happiness and maximizing our pleasure and well-being in this life we are not partaking of Moral crimes, whether we are putting ourselves before God and others. If we treat and preserve our lives as though we were living on borrowed time, always in fear that we were going to lose our precious possessions and indulgences, then we essentially see ourselves as thieves as criminals who have lucked out whilst the Master is looking the other way. Are we, by our actions, avoiding God's love, or do we behave as though we are fleeing from God and hiding from his gaze? That was the real question of chastity of which the Christian is concerned. What is the proper conduct of one who knows that Christ was sent by God? Does he measure the worth of his life, the worth of God by the satisfaction he receives or does not receive, as though he alone were the judge of life, whether it is something to be desired or not; or does he seek to be obedient, the submit his own will and not live for himself only, by measure of his own happiness, as though he were a little world cut off from the rest? Chastity has everything to do with lowering one's head in life, looking for signs of sanctity in our neighbor, to know them as inviolables to be treated the same way we would treat a brother or sister, instead of seeking to gleefully and excitedly engage in crimes with them and gossip about others under cover of darkness so long as they share our same depravity, behind God's back, so to speak, as though we had liberated ourselves from the yolk of responsibility to the Kingdom of Heaven and were conspiring to erect our own temples and hold festivals of debauchery and revelry in glorification of ourselves.

[Anonymous No.13225912]

>>13222021
>I find it pretty delusional to believe in cosmic father figure just because 2000year old institution told you
This nigger seriously thinks people only believe in god because their religion told them to, and there's absolutely no other avenue of arriving to that conclusion

[Anonymous No.13225924]

>>13225912
Philosophy is much older than 2000 years, and it's not really an institution.

[Anonymous No.13225939]

>>13225892
Hence: [if I was christian] I of course would be completely abstinent.

[Anonymous No.13225941]

>>13225829
I don't think you need to believe in God or the Church in order to accept the Church's view on sex. We can know from reason alone that gay sex is immoral, because what is the purpose of the genitals? They can be a source of pleasure but it's mainly for procreation, so any sex that doesn't consist of mutual pleasure while being open to procreation is an obvious misuse of the genitals.

[Anonymous No.13225947]

This is another one, found it on /x/ i think

[Anonymous No.13225955]

>>13225939
In other words, so long as your activity is clandestine, not subject to the judgment of a power over yourself, you may do whatever you like, no? That is, so long as the Father is away and you are amongst fellow renegades. If this is what you are saying, we are in agreement.

[Anonymous No.13225988]

>>13225941
Some autistic aristotlean shit isn't going to make me choose against getting a peepee in my butt.

>>13225955
Without God I see no strong issue with some faggotry in my life.
With God (for this we shall use God in the Catholic sense, supposing Catholicism to be true etc etc) it is something sinful and against scripture. If I truly believed, why would I disobey God and put my life above God's will?

[Anonymous No.13225999]

>>13221425
Trinity is evil and pagan and ur church split up because it is godless

[Anonymous No.13226000]

>>13225988
Not everybody will accept reason.

[Anonymous No.13226004]

>>13226000
Why should I not misuse my genitals?

[Anonymous No.13226014]

>>13225988
I think the "sex is only for procreation" is a puritan interpretation.

I don't think God has a problem with you being a gay, the problem is sexual misconduct. This is common in many religions, Buddhism for instance. And sexual misconduct is something that may hurt others, be it rape, adultery, incest and so on.

Being catholic is easy, the 10 commandments can be summarized into 2. Love God, and love other people. If you love others you don't fuck their wife, you don't kill them, you don't rob them.. etc.

[Anonymous No.13226015]

>>13225988
Do u like being a degenerate pervert? Perversion leads to loss of dignity. Modern society is comforted by everyone being a disgrace it's y yall are comfortable after being disgraceful w each other. Not just in sex but social situations. Race to bottom

[Anonymous No.13226016]

>>13226004
I think you should misuse them with a knife.

[Anonymous No.13226017]

>>13226014
Nonsense, ur church will fall by ur lack of standards

[Anonymous No.13226021]

>>13224768
I've been meaning to read the title at the top of your list. I'll look into those other ones as well, thanks a bunch

[Anonymous No.13226030]

>>13226017
sure God is watching you don't check other's men butts in the train station.

[Anonymous No.13226036]

>>13225988
It is not important whether there is or is not a god. The question is whether or not we posit a god with our actions. But the criminal and the lawful citizen posit justice, you see? The spiteful and the faithful both posit a creator. People who live for themselves and people who submit to a higher authority both posit that authority, only one rebels and the other obeys.

Now, the question is not whether a homosexual believes in a god, the interest is in the nature of the activity. Suppose that someone believes or feels that their actions are disobedient, and this is perhaps the source of the thrill of said action--can such an one be said to be an atheist or to not believe in morality? I think not, for it is the very illegality of the action which makes one feel as though one is an Übermensch, so to speak. The fact that one enjoys feeling as though one is one's own authority cannot abolish the idea of a supreme authority--on the contrary it implies it. The only question then, is: can man be or is man the supreme authority or not?

If you, the arbiter or your own will, have decided that you are going to maximize your happiness, and that you are the judge therefore of the worth of this life, then it is you that may decide whether or not to keep it or to discard it. In all of this, then, you posit yourself as the Judge, and You have the last say on all things. You cannot pretend, then, that there is a supreme Judge and also not a supreme Judge. You have not denied the reality of such a thing, but have only decided that it is you who are to assume the title. But the very concept implies that it cannot be usurped and we as creatures cannot rewrite the laws of the cosmos or of morality. We are always at the mercy of them.

[Anonymous No.13226068]

>>13226014
If I were Christian I'd be required to never masturbate or have sex.
Liberal proddies in America may think buttsex if fine for a Christian, but I disagree.

>>13226016
I'd prefer not to.

>>13226015
>Do u like being a degenerate pervert?
Are you trying inquire about my kinks?
As an individual I think I'm a decent person if that's what you ask.

>>13226036
I am not the supreme judge of my life w/e

[Anonymous No.13226077]

>>13226068
>If I were Christian I'd be required to never masturbate or have sex.

maybe if you were a monk , that made celibacy vows.

[Anonymous No.13226081]

>>13226014
>I don't think God has a problem with you being a gay, the problem is sexual misconduct
>There's a difference

[Anonymous No.13226082]

>>13226077
>maybe if you were a monk , that made celibacy vows.
Faggotry wouldn't be permitted.

[Anonymous No.13226098]

>>13226068
Do you not decide whether or not to engage in an activity based on the happiness it brings? How are you not the judge? Or do you admit that there may be a judge and that your life will be judged, but you do not care? This is what I meant: that you still imply a judge with your actions, only that you are the dismissive, careless son as opposed to an attentive, eager one.

[Anonymous No.13226114]

>>13226098
>Do you not decide whether or not to engage in an activity based on the happiness it brings?
Not strictly. There's a multitude of factors behind my actions.

I suppose on a theoretical level, I may claim that I ideally act in a way conducive to blah blah blah

[Anonymous No.13226160]

>>13226114
And some factors are beyond your control, admittedly. And these seem to influence whatever authority you have over your own life, to sway you this way or that. But whatever little influence you do have, whatever real control over your own decisions you have, you admit that there is a degree of freedom in this, that you are like a son, who sees his father, and whatever you feel inclined to do, you can still consider that father and decide to trust, to love, to embrace that father or not to, to reject that father. You can do this with anyone, no? Without this freedom, there is no possibility of trust or of love. There is no active part of your soul, you are only passive, only a spectator in life and nothing more. You are entirely at the mercy of the forces in life, as though they were the sole actors on a stage of which you are merely an audience member. What can you do, then? Seemingly nothing. You have no control. Your own soul would necessarily vanish, no? There is no "you". Is this what you believe?

[Anonymous No.13226181]

Yeah, can you recommend me stories that are based on Sumerian text but stolen by others?

[Anonymous No.13226195]

>>13226160
By Father you mean the basis for my moral decisions? There is perhaps something, but it is a mere mish-mash of my own emotions and range of what I've consumed (views of others, things I've read/seen etc that force their influence on me).
Forgive me if I'm not a good interlocutor; I'm a little dazed due to asthma.

[Anonymous No.13226257]

>>13226195
I mean the way in which our relationships are structured. On the human level these are undeniably moral rather than causal. If I lose the feeling that by my actions I am accountable, that they carry a weight which goes beyond my life, then I cease to be a moral actor, and what am I at that point but passive or prone to causal forces? My actions, at that point, are nothing more than the actions of natural forces or powers. In order for me to actively make decisions I must actively judge, which is to say that I weigh one thing against another, an activity against the pleasure or pain it will bring, or pleasure and happiness against right and wrong. Where does my feeling for right and wrong come from that I can measure it against particular actions to decide whether or not they fit the description? I can only do this by considering myself as a free actor liable to a certain set of laws or rules. If I consider myself passive, at the mercy of natural forces, then in such a judgment I am only considering if natural powers can be moral, which is an absurdity, because they are not free and nothing can behave rightly or wrongly by their own will.

This is the only way in which I can conceive of myself as accountable in life, i.e., responsible. Otherwise I am not really responsible for my actions, see? Criminality is just an accident, and I could never decide to behave otherwise. Perhaps I can forgive myself, recognizing that certain influences upon me were strong enough to pull me into something which I now regret--but again, without considering myself as free, able to judge, and accountable for my own actions, then all I could regret is that my life turned out to be unfortunate, that it was unhappy, whatever. I cannot really feel remorse, since this would be to imply that I ought to have acted differently. And I cannot think this without implying that I am responsible for my own actions.

Now how can I be responsible without being responsible to something, to a law, to a father, to an obligation, an authority? If I make this authority my own happiness, then I only regret that I did not choose the actions that led to the most happiness and deny the possibility of criminality. A world in which there are other people to think about and a Good to consider cannot be one in which my own happiness is paramount. I therefore have to think about my responsibilities to others, to act in a way so that I do not betray my own privilege of citizenship in a moral universe in which I am a very small but not insignificant part. I am not a child or a mere play of forces: I am a man who is precious to God in proportion to my sensitivity to the life around me. Otherwise, being the most powerful, free thing on earth, ignoring this privilege and the responsibility that comes with it, I am the most dangerous thing, the most capable of cruelty and negligence. I must embrace this role therefore with the utmost solemnity and humility that I can muster.

[Anonymous No.13226308]

>>13226257
It may be due to my current dopiness, but I'm not sure where you're going with this.

[Anonymous No.13226328]

>>13226081
With love in your heart, God's will can set you defend the church, to kill and be absolved of your wretchedness. It is for the same reason that countless monks were forgiven for engaging in too much a revival of Greek culture in the 1500's. What God condemns is never an action or misconduct in itself, though the institutions must seek to dissuade and educate by addressing these situations. The true commandments are about how the heart or your emotional intelligence conducts itself. A priest that sustains himself in his chastity for the willful purpose of advancing his position within the church WILL be punished. The conduct is secondary, and those who believe their self, their conscious thoughts and intentions to be a haven separated from the knowledge of angels and daemons are truly ignorant of the ways of God and shall be sorely displeased upon arrival at the gate.

[Anonymous No.13226346]

>>13226328
seems like everyone's gonna go to hell

[Anonymous No.13226430]

>>13226346
Sounds like you are acknowledging why it is wise to fear God. This notion that God is good and heaven is filled with people is suspect. Earth is pleasant, the institution does the best it can to sustain people in their quest, but many priests do so at the expense of their souls because life is suffering and humans disgusting. There is no priest that could hold this in his mind and do God's will day to day, and for that, I am sorry to say, you are barred the bliss of true salvation. This conception of God's cartoon utopia with wide gates is as foolish as those that condemn anything with hate in their hearts in the of Christ our Saviour.

[Anonymous No.13226454]

>>13226430
yeah fuck it i'm just gonna enjoy my time and burn in hell later
seems i'd just get stressed out otherwise

[Anonymous No.13226506]

>>13226308
You are evidently already convinced that licentiousness is forbidden to the Christian, but you are not a Christian, you said. Either you think morality is something different from Christian doctrine, or you do not see yourself as morally accountable at all. You seemed to imply both in different responses: initially, you do not see yourself as the judge of your actions; but later you seemed to say you had a feeling of morality but that it might just be emotional noise, and not really a sense of an inherent right or wrong. I did not assume, however, that you really felt that you were not the author of your own actions and merely a spectator, because I don't believe any man really feels this way about himself. Thus, every man has a moral sense and does not believe that he is not accountable for his own actions. I then asked the question: what, then, is man accountable to? What can this be but an authority apart from oneself, and wherefore does this command our absolute obedience (making our own happiness subject to it) except that it be the author of creation? The very Christian God and his shining example of holiness the Only Begotten?

How do you not see yourself as subject to this authority, then, if you feel yourself to be the author of your own actions and therefore responsible for your conduct in a Christian commonwealth? What is the basis for your rejection of all this in favor of a eudaemonic worldview with yourself at the center, perhaps with every man as a center unto himself, not bound by any higher center or example independent of him?

[Anonymous No.13226515]

>>13226506
I don't believe in God

[Anonymous No.13226529]

>>13226515
You don't believe in God. And what is the significance of your disbelief if not that, if you believed in him, you would be accountable to him, as you testify?

[Anonymous No.13226552]

>>13226454
I think you underestimate what hell is and what it is to conduct yourself as a good person viewed by God within His institution. You can be offhanded and derisive all you want, but if your intentions are either pass or fail, you're not in any way intending to heaven anyhow. So don't go to church or go to church, you go to hell all the same, but if you choose to abandon God, you make yourself useful to the enemy in this battlefield. This is the only reason one comes to the faith knowing his end is in Hell, to act for the souls of others that they might be shown a path to the kingdom of Heaven. Your all or nothing sounds like a fucking protestant cop-out.

[Anonymous No.13226569]

>>13226529
I don't like your writing style at all

[Anonymous No.13226585]

>>13226569
What, because I used the word "testify"? If you do not believe yourself to be under judgment, liable to any authority, then what good is intellectual or moral discussion at all? You are free from the Father's watch, no stern disapproval will come to you. What is there to do but dance and shout? Why are we having this discussion at all, when there is no power to answer to but our lawless will?

[Anonymous No.13226601]

>>13226585
You waffle on way too much

[Anonymous No.13226627]

>>13226552
whatever lol
rather not stress myself out over this shit
worry about it when i'm in hell :)

[Anonymous No.13226654]

>>13226601
If it were your life at stake, would you want others to be careless and immoderate? Or would you have the other be as attentive and considerate as you yourself would be?

[Anonymous No.13226681]

>>13222617
for KJV, the deuterocanonical books are refered to as "apocrypha" due to the belief that these books were uninspired due to a lack of Hebrew versions of these books, only having Greek ones at hand. In recent years though, some of these disputed books have been found in Hebrew within the Dead Sea Scrolls. Original copies of KJV had the deuterocanon as an appendix to the Bible, useful, traditional texts to the faithful but uninspired nonetheless. In these latter days many Protestants just don't include the deuterocanon due to them beliving that they are uninspired. There is a book of the KJV of the Apocrypha on Amazon for a decent price I believe.
Mary is considered sinless by Catholics due to Christ needing to be held within a "pure vessal", i.e. someone without sin, so He could come into the world without the spurn of sin from a mother with sin. Belief in Mary's sinless birth (also called the Immaculate Conception) also originates from Scripture, Luke 1:28 (I use Douay Rheims version) with Gabriel telling Mary "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Mary being called "full of grace" points to sinlessness due to grace being lost in sin, "the Lord is with thee" points to this as well, showing Mary's closeness to the Lord, which sin would cause to collapse. The statement "blessed art thou among women" points to Mary's elavated position, i.e. being able to carry Christ himself as her child, with Mary's "blessed"-ness being a defining factor of her person allowing her to do such an awesome thing, blessedness being a sign of being without sin as well.
If I caused any confusion I apologize, I haven't slept well for a few days. If you need any clarifying, just ask my friend. Such curiosities about the Scriptures and Mary is what led me to the Catholic Church, I was born a Protestant (Methodist) and wavered between Mormonism and Nondenominatinal Christianity until I found the beauty and truth of the Church. God bless all of you in this thread.

[Anonymous No.13226731]

>>13226681
The case for the deuterocanonical books seems so iron clad, are protestants just not paying attention? I don't see how they can continue believing the things they do since their entire tradition is built on an undisputed lie.

[Anonymous No.13226742]

Why is Catholicism so good at science? What are they trying to prove through studying the Big Bang and working with CERN? Isn’t it a little foolish/dangerous to try find God? What if he doesn’t want to be found?

[Anonymous No.13226752]

[Anonymous No.13226787]

>>13221425
Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest rather than directly to God

[Anonymous No.13226789]

>>13226654
Is my life at stake?
I just find you hard to follow is all

[Anonymous No.13226806]

>>13222618
Doesn't having another person live a sinless life lessen Jesus' redemptive mission and perfect life that fulfilled the law?

[Anonymous No.13226830]

>>13226806
No.

[Anonymous No.13226843]

>>13226830
Why? It makes him no longer unique, right?

[Anonymous No.13226847]

>>13225580
Got some bad news for your papa there, pal.

[Anonymous No.13226852]

>>13225644
Says the pedophile housing medeival italian larp club

[Anonymous No.13226862]

>>13226843
I don't know what you're asking. Jesus is Mary's savior and she refers to him as much, the only difference is that she was redeemed preventatively. Why would this being true lessen Jesus' redemptive mission?

[Anonymous No.13226863]

>>13226681
Appreciate the response fren. Marry being without sin is one of the finer points of contention amongst denominations
I can understand the reasoning for believing Mary to be without sin.
I don't tend to think it the case as she was a woman and all people are, by nature, sinners. I've always taken the blessed among women verse to mean she is blessed as she gave birth to the son of God.
I don't find Jesus coming into this world from a sinner to weaken his sacrifice for us. He was without sin, which made him different from all men/women. I worry that viewing Mary as without sin means she is somehow being deified almost, as the only one who can be perfect is God, man can not.
But then, maybe she was sinless. I don't know for sure as I was not there

I do want to read the books that have been excluded over time, I find it only right to give other texts a chance. It's why I've read some of Jashir
I know some Baptists hold grudges against Catholics and I don't find that to be fair. I don't plan on converting but the Baptist church has frustrated me in some ways due to members hypocrisy, though I myself have no doubt acted as a hypocrite as well


>>13226731
Speaking as a Baptist, we view ourselves as having been around prior to the unification of various groups into the Catholic church, rather than post reformation. As to the texts being supported by dead sea scrolls, things like the book of Enoch are in Hebrew but (I may be wrong) I don't think the Catholics, nor most protestants, hold it as cannonical
I do not find what we do to be wholey wrong

[Anonymous No.13226870]

>>13225644
Spanish Inquisition barely did anything wrong and to any and all extent that it did then it was bad and worth the Spanish state to apologize. The "Inquisition" that supposedly killed millions in the worst state sponsored democide before the Holocaust is literally an Internal Anglo Black Legend made to paint Spaniards as demonic people during the feud the Anglo had against Spain.

[Anonymous No.13226887]

>>13226787
Because people best express contrition and grace is best conveyed by a sacramental means- physical and spiritual action, a sign that is what it represents. Plus a confession made in absolute privacy is less relieving and much less an acknowledgement of the real presence of God.
>>13226806
No. The usual teaching I've heard is that the Incarnation would still have been required were all humanity sinless. Christ doesn't just forgive our sins, but brings us to union with God.

[Anonymous No.13226897]

>>13226863
It's not just the Dead Sea Scrolls, it's the canon that made up the Septuagint which is what the Jews at the time and place Jesus lived was using. The deuterocanonical's were considered canon and accepted right from the start and throughout history until the 16th century when Luther decided to remove them. His reason for removing them is only confirmed for being faulty by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it's only the cherry on top of the case against Luther removing those books and not considering them canon. Protestants have an incomplete bible.

[Anonymous No.13226929]

>>13226887
>Plus a confession made in absolute privacy is less relieving and much less an acknowledgement of the real presence of God
How So? The only difference is you're telling a man rather than God himself. Isn't it a greater acknowledgement of God to tell him than to tell a priest?
And if it's more relieving to tell a priest than directly telling God, is that not because of the human factor rather than it being a closer confession to God?
I know I'm sorta arguing here and I want to remain civil. Im just trying to understand the church's views

[Anonymous No.13227004]

>>13226862
Sorry for the confusion, I'm saying wouldn't that contradict what the Bible says, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? Maybe I am misunderstanding the concept of her being without sin...

[Anonymous No.13227019]

>>13226887
But is it not the "passing over" of sins that allows us to have union with God?
Isaiah 59:1-2 "Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear."

[Anonymous No.13227045]

>>13221425
Why are people arguing about the Bible? Who gives a shit about religion, nothing but plagiarized stories that are spun one way or another. Get your head out of your asses. Not saying this as an atheist, I'm saying this as common fucking sense. Muh God betta den yo God huur Durr, muh Gilgamesh muh noah. Fuck all of you.

[Anonymous No.13227064]

>>13227045
>And we ought not to listen to those who counsel us “O man, think as man should” and “O mortal, remember your mortality.” Rather ought we, so far as in us lies, to put on immortality and to leave nothing unattempted in the effort to live in conformity with the highest thing within us. Small in bulk it may be, yet in power and preciousness it transcends all the rest.

[Anonymous No.13227080]

>>13225947
If you are Catholic, do not pray this

[Anonymous No.13227089]

>>13225947
pure paganism

[Anonymous No.13227294]

>>13227045
how's middle school?

[Anonymous No.13227397]

>>13225892
>>13225939
>>13225955
>>13225988

The (male) climax is actually a good example of immanent experience of Man's true Ontology, most of all in masturbation. Not an empty inert vessel into which experience is poured by an other, but as Monad from which experience explodes by virtue of its fullness and dynamism.

[Anonymous No.13227417]

>>13227294
Yikes, if that's middle school than anyone into the Bible is literally mouth drooling retarded. Like sub 70 at best. It's irrefutable that the Bible is a plagiarized piece. One Google search can bring up troves of information to attest to that. As all religion though, better to be ignorant than to ask questions that could crumble feeble world views. Praise Allah, wait I meant Amen.

[Anonymous No.13227656]

>>13225947
Was this written by a woman

[Anonymous No.13227683]

>>13227417
I could not think of a better response you could give to prove the other guy's point more

[Anonymous No.13227703]

>>13225580
>"Who am I to judge?"

[Anonymous No.13227724]

>>13225947
DO NOT PRAY THIS. This angel invocation stuff is jewish magic that dates the key of solomon and abramelin rituals to talk to guardian angels and stuff

>>13227656
yes

[Anonymous No.13227755]

>>13227417
You don't understand the nature of religion if you are claiming "plagiarism." Not every text has to be some neo-liberal religious book™. Regardless, there can be no such thing as complete individual originality in any religious work since it is by its very nature, it is supra-individual insfoar as it is a genuinely traditional work. Hence the reason many books are attributed to religious figures like Moses that very well may have not been written by him; they were composed by the same experience of revelation that transcendends the individual condition. If there is overlap between traditions that is even more a reason to believe in it and an obvious pointer to the primordial spiritual consciousness that present throughout all of mankind, which will be fulfilled in Christ.

[Anonymous No.13227758]

Do Taoists go to hell

[Anonymous No.13228263]

anybody have any recommendations for books about prayer?

[Anonymous No.13228433]

>>13228263
Rosary: The Secret of the Rosary
Prayer and the Mind: The Philokalia
Meditative Prayer: the Cloud of Unknowing
Jesus Prayer: The Way of a Pilgrim

[Anonymous No.13228475]

>>13228263
learn the jesus prayer with the way of a pilgrim

[Anonymous No.13229026]

>>13226929
James 5:16
"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."

I always considered having a priest perform the sacrament under the seal of confession to be more reassuring, since they are sworn to secrecy. Otherwise we're supposed to confess to each other. And I think I was told that the sins aren't absolved unless it's a priest performing the sacrament.

[Anonymous No.13229383]

how do I do it bros. I dont know, i just dont know.

[Anonymous No.13229890]

>>13226929
Might not be a universal feeling, but confessing to a person is a much more significant thing than offering it in privacy as prayer. It makes the personal nature of God, and therefore the confession, all the more immediate. The human factor is a lot of the importance, but I don't really see that as anything against it- we are human, and bringing ourselves to confess to another person is important, as is the human element of sympathy and compassion as an immediate reaction from the priest. And as >>13229026 points out, there is scriptural basis. In addition I'd say that to those struggling with faith, a confession only to God would be difficult to take comfort in.
>>13227019
That's an odd reading of the passage you quote. Yes, our sins separate us from God, but it's obviously not better that someone sin that they may be then saved- our being made children of God is dependent on Jesus' Incarnation. For that to be necessary only because of our sin would seem to imply that we are granted a greater dignity through sin than we would ever have received without it. It's not just His sacrifice that brings us into communion with God, the Incarnation and Ascension are incredibly important as well.

[Anonymous No.13229902]

>>13229383
rape a little boy and it will all make sense

[Anonymous No.13229954]

>>13229902
I'm beginning to think prots have pedophilia on their minds more than "muh pedo priest" do.

[Anonymous No.13229960]

>>13229954
>prots have pedophilia on their minds more than actual pedophiles

[Anonymous No.13229982]

>>13229960
You're always here, aren't you? You have this tab open with a bunch of others refreshing from time to time to spout "pedophile" like a little twerp with little concept of maturity. When this thread is done you'll do the same to the next thread and scan this and other boards so you can spout the same trite. Please, do yourself and everyone else a favor and go read your KJV and "let Jesus in your heart" and pretend you're a Christian brimming with love.

[Anonymous No.13230988]

HERETICS

[Anonymous No.13231148]

>>13223876
>Don't you get it yet? It's all real.
(From Matthew 27) 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Yeah I'm kinda curious why only Matthew, and no other gospel or historical figure anywhere bothered to mention the fucking zombie apocalypse that happened in a major city

[Anonymous No.13231171]

>>13221849
>they don't want to bother with trying to really learn what the doctrine of the Trinity is.
The Trinity doctrine is total nonsense. Every attempt to explain it into a way that is comprehensible to anyone with a brain gets labelled a heresy:

Modalism (i.e. Sabellianism, Noetianism and Patripassianism)
...taught that the three persons of the Trinity as different “modes” of the Godhead. Adherants believed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct personalities, but different modes of God's self-revelation. A typical modalist approach is to regard God as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Spirit in sanctification. In other words, God exists as Father, Son and Spirit in different eras, but never as triune. Stemming from Modalism, Patripassianism believed that the Father suffered as the Son.

Tritheism
...Tritheism confessses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three independent divine beings; three separate gods who share the 'same substance'. This is a common mistake because of misunderstanding of the use of the term 'persons' in defining the Trinity.

Arianism
...taught that the preexistent Christ was the first and greatest of God’s creatures but denied his fully divine status. The Arian controversy was of major importance in the development of Christology during the fourth century and was addressed definitely in the Nicene Creed.

Docetism
...taught that Jesus Christ as a purely divine being who only had the “appearance” of being human. Regarding his suffering, some versions taught that Jesus’ divinity abandoned or left him upon the cross while other claimed that he only appeared to suffer (much like he only appeared to be human).

Ebionitism
...taught that while Jesus was endowed with particular charismatic gifts which distinguished him from other humans but nonetheless regarded Him as a purely human figure.

Macedonianism
...that that the Holy Spirit is a created being.

Adoptionism
...taught that Jesus was born totally human and only later was “adopted” – either at his baptism or at his resurrection – by God in a special (i.e. divine) way.

Partialism
...taught that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are components of the one God. This led them to believe that each of the persons of the Trinity is only part God, only becoming fully God when they come together.

The Trinity is just a ridiculous exercise of mental gymnastics. There is no logical explanation of it. If you just take it on "faith", that's fine, but don't pretend that it makes any kind of sense or gives the believer any kind of practical understanding of god.

[Anonymous No.13231180]

>>13223331
every argument about the existence of god was ripped off from somewhere else. There is nothing unique about christian metaphysics, it's all stolen from previous pagan philosophers. There is no reason, logically, to be a xtian and thus worship a jew.

[Anonymous No.13231189]

Why do Catholics get mad when they are run out of an area or when they lose members to other religions or to atheism, yet historically Xtianity has been more than happy to exterminate all indigenous pagan religions and to carry out iconoclasm, book burning, and suppression of history? Isn't that hypocritical?

[Anonymous No.13231191]

Pope Francis loves kissing nigger feet. What's the deal?

[Anonymous No.13231196]

>>13231191
(You)

[Anonymous No.13231197]

>>13229982
You should be more humble. God would prefer it if you would be more loving and kind to that anon. Shame on you. Have some compassion. Jesus would forgive him and probably try to make out with his feet.

[Anonymous No.13231199]

>>13231189
>Why does the Catholic Church want me to become Catholic?
>hurrr

[Anonymous No.13231201]

>>13231196
Really though, sell me on joining a faith that will condemn me to hell if I don't bow to a leader who literally kisses nigger feet.

>>13231199
Why does the Catholic church insist on destroying every other religion on earth? Is that god's love?

[Anonymous No.13231214]

>>13231189
>Xtianity
Stop saying this. What are you, a 13 year old girl?

[Anonymous No.13231217]

>>13231214
Not an argument, though I am sympathetic to this response since it is easier to simply ignore a question you can't answer.

[Anonymous No.13231223]

>>13231217
Yes you're right, me telling you to stop saying something is not an argument. You're very perceptive.

[Anonymous No.13231230]

>>13231223
So this is the power of a theologically and rationally perfect religion..... heh......... not bad kid.......

[Anonymous No.13231330]

>>13231148
>but don't pretend that it makes any kind of sense
I am Catholic and I agree with you here.

[Anonymous No.13231334]

>>13231330
meant to quote >>13231171

[Anonymous No.13231411]

>>13229890
I feel like you are reducing the impact and point of sinful nature. There is no theoretical situation of someone living without sinning because it only happened once, with Jesus Christ. that is the whole point of his coming and redemption, it was sin that originally separated us from God and prevents us from living up to the glory of God.

[Anonymous No.13231421]

Who are some good catholic poets? or poems about catholicism?

[Anonymous No.13231606]

>>13231421
In English, Gerard Manley Hopkins is an excellent poet. For example:

Justus quidem tu es, Domine, si disputem tecum; verumtamen
justa loquar ad te: Quare via impiorum prosperatur? &c.
Thou art indeed just, Lord, if I contend
With thee; but, sir, so what I plead is just.
Why do sinners’ ways prosper? and why must
Disappointment all I endeavour end?
Wert thou my enemy, O thou my friend,
How wouldst thou worse, I wonder, than thou dost
Defeat, thwart me? Oh, the sots and thralls of lust
Do in spare hours more thrive than I that spend,
Sir, life upon thy cause. See, banks and brakes
Now, leavèd how thick! lacèd they are again
With fretty chervil, look, and fresh wind shakes
Them; birds build – but not I build; no, but strain,
Time’s eunuch, and not breed one work that wakes.
Mine, O thou lord of life, send my roots rain.

[Anonymous No.13231638]

>>13231421
Joyce Kilmer and Richard Crashaw

[Anonymous No.13231646]

>>13231189
>>13231201
How much suppression of history or destruction of books has the church done exactly? Stop perpetuating bullshit history.
Would literally atheists or Muslims apply a similar standard? If everyone becomes atheist the Christianity is lost, Islam destroyed the Christian communities of North Africa, and most generations of people lose the peculiarities of religious expressions of prior ones. Just the loss of Germanic paganism, for example, doesn't mean that the loss of parts of other existing groups is as much a tragedy. Converting to something seen as greater or more correct can't be blamed on the people or those converting them.
>>13231411
Of course, living without sin is impossible without divine intervention. But my point is that our sin did not bring about a wonderful miracle which otherwise would not have been seen. I feel like it reduces the divinity and redemptive message of Jesus- His coming was not made necessary only by sin, but allows our union with God in the first place and in all time.
>>13231421
David Jones is amazing, but there's a lot of allusion to the matter of britain. One of my favorite writers, I'd just recommend at least the Mabinogion and Malory first.
TS Eliot
Tolkien's poetry is very worth noting
And of course a lot of the obvious ones: Dante, Chaucer, etc

[Anonymous No.13231680]

>>13231421
Alexander Pope is an incredibly good Catholic poet.

[Anonymous No.13231724]

hi, im guenonian (rené guénon, perenialism). any good resources/books on that topic ? i found some thomists answers to his metaphysics in french

[Anonymous No.13231794]

>>13231646
Well without sin we would have always have had that union with God. I'm sorry for my ignorance of Catholic tradition, but could you clarify what else made Jesus's coming necessary if it wasn't only sin?

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost."
1 Timothy 1:15

[Anonymous No.13232006]

>>13231411
what kind of god creates a race of people who are fundamentally evil? no other religion but christianity is so pessimistic and hateful towards humanity

[Anonymous No.13232022]

>>13231646
>Converting to something seen as greater or more correct
Christianity converted the same way its brother Islam did: by the sword. Why else would abrahamism insist on iconoclasm if not for jealousy and a desire to prevent any other outcome? if christianity is greater, there would be no reason to violently suppress all other religious ideas. but christianity requires that all other religions be eradicated by any means necessary. you people cannot tolerate alternatives

[Anonymous No.13232053]

>>13232022
Genuinely curious, when has the Church forced conversion or converted via military conquest?

[Anonymous No.13232117]

>>13232053
Not military but native american children didn't exactly convert on their own or through their parents wishes.

[Anonymous No.13232157]

>>13232117
Do you know of a specific instance where a Catholic forcibly converted a native American? I'm not even saying it couldn't have been attempted but there's a lot of bad history involved in these sorts of claims that are the result of historical protestant propaganda. And the irony of it all is the truth is usually the exact opposite of what they claim, but that protestants were the ones torturing people and forcibly converting them and whatever.

It wouldn't even make sense for a rational believing Catholic to try forcing somebody to convert because the baptism wouldn't be valid. A conversion can't be the result of any sort of force or coercion. Rodney Stark has a really good book that goes over these sorts of anti-Catholic myths and it's worth checking out.

[Anonymous No.13232233]

>>13232157
https://oklahoman.com/article/3365504/canadian-indians-get-apology-from-pontiff?
https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/07/09/pope-francis-apologizes-for-exploitation-of-native-peoples-calls-for-economic-justice/

[Anonymous No.13232247]

>>13232157
>>13232233
Also for a specific example my great grandmother went to a boarding school though I'm not sure if it was specifically Catholic.

[Anonymous No.13232257]

>>13232233
>From the 19th century until the 1970s, more than 150,000 Indian children in Canada were forced to attend state-funded Christian schools
Being forced to go to a Catholic school is torture but it's not exactly a forced conversion. Am I missing something?

[Anonymous No.13232283]

>>13232257
Well you can say being separated hundreds of miles from your community, forced to speak a language you don't know and beaten if you speak your own, forced to cut your hair and wear uniforms, forced to study a foreign religion and attend services, being physically, psychologically, and sexually abused for various other reasons putting you in a state of constant fear and anxiety for stepping out of line isn't exactly FORCING you into that religion but it's definitely coercion.

[Anonymous No.13232292]

>>13232006
He gave us a choice. You are choosing to focus on the aspects of Christianity that condemn the harmful nature of sin and our inclination to follow these harmful desires

[Anonymous No.13232313]

>>13232283
Well first off we're talking about actions of the state. It says right in the article that these are state funded schools. Second of all, every state in the world and especially states of the 19th century did these things on some level without any sort of religious conversions happening as a consequence. There's no reason to believe religious conversion was the purpose of having natives attend school.

Really though, there's a lot of motivated people who love to find things to beat the Church with so if it's this hard for you to find an example of the Catholic Church forcibly converting somebody then I would call that a good reason to believe it was extremely rare, if it happened at all

[Anonymous No.13232337]

>>13221849
>Our ceremonies and rites are rooted in Judaism
bullcrap

[Anonymous No.13232344]

>>13232337
Actual Judaism and not the modern circus

[Anonymous No.13232346]

>>13232313
>these are state funded schools
So if Christian missionaries, priests, teachers, etc are funded by the state that makes their actions not the actions of Christianity?
>There's no reason to believe religious conversion was the purpose of having natives attend school.
It was one of their many purposes.
>find an example
Do you want me to name random elders from our rez? Does it make a difference whether they were succesful or not in their conversions?

[Anonymous No.13232354]

>>13232346
I tap out when people start quoting and responding to individual sentences. Nothing interesting has ever come from people who write like that so I don't read it.

[Anonymous No.13232371]

>>13232354
You're right Catholics have literally never done anything wrong

[Anonymous No.13232377]

>>13232371
I don't remember saying that in our conversation about forced conversation and whether or not they happened.

[Anonymous No.13232381]

>>13232377
What is your idea of forced conversion?

[Anonymous No.13232393]

>>13221425
Catholicism is the world's largest racket

seek help in the pages of The Bible, not from the Don of the Vatican Mafia.

[Anonymous No.13232396]

>>13232381
A forced conversion is when somebody who isn't a Catholic is forced to become one. As I said earlier, it's not even possible because baptisms aren't valid if they're the result of any sort of compulsion.

[Anonymous No.13232430]

>>13232396
Is what I described earlier not compulsion/coercion?
As for a specific example who do you want me to source? There aren't many well-known native americans to choose from.

[Anonymous No.13232435]

>>13231197
>be humble
kek

>Have some compassion.
Like I was even hard on that anon

>Jesus would forgive him and probably try to make out with his feet.
Because Jesus would forgive someone calling and insinuating all His shepherds to be pedophiles unless that anon was actually sorry which is seldom the case.

>try to make out with his feet.
what?

[Anonymous No.13232444]

>>13232430
No I don't think that's an example and I even gave you a reason to think it wasn't coercion to have natives attend school. I can't tell you where to find an example of a forced conversion because I don't think it happened. I've already looked and I haven't found any.

[Anonymous No.13232484]

>>13232444
Children were abused for stepping out of line and Christianity was part of the line.
1 - Someone who has successfully converted is unlikely to say they were threatened or forced into faith.
2 - Many of these kids went on to return to the rez and become substance abusers and suicides. I don't know their names.
3 - The best I can do is tell you it happened to many elders on our rez but you won't take my word.
4 - The wikipedia definition of forced conversion says it's conversion under duress and includes people who pretend to convert to avoid punishment.
5 - These weren't adults but impressionable children

[Anonymous No.13232492]

>>13232484
I don't know why you're numbering yourself now but we've already been over this. I can only ask you to reread my posts more carefully because I've responded to your points and was ignored.

[Anonymous No.13232500]

>>13232492
What points have I ignored?

[Anonymous No.13232513]

>>13232500
Nothing, nevermind.

[Anonymous No.13232537]

309 responses to a /b/ tier thread. Unreal, this is why the Bible should be a bannable offense on lit.

[Anonymous No.13232553]

>>13232537
Agreed my good sir.

[Anonymous No.13232593]

>>13232537
Good thing Catholics don't read the Bible ;^)

[Anonymous No.13232605]

>>13232537
It's already banned by the church

[Anonymous No.13232629]

>>13232484
I'll take your word for it, as I've no doubt it happened. I think it's also worth noting that the Church and its missionaries have a strong history of standing side by side with indigenous Americans, north and south, and speaking for their rights and dignity as men, sometimes to the point of martyrdom. Even as early as 1537 it was stated officially by Pope Paul III that under no circumstances are Indians of the New World to be deprived of their liberty or their lands, and that contrary to popular belief, they are not dumb brutes, but in fact are perfectly capable of receiving the Faith. There were obvious blunders resulting from manifest destiny, however I think it would be uncharitable to claim that the Church's relatively small part in them was in any way comparable to Islamic conquest, which is what I was initially curious about.

[Anonymous No.13232664]

>>13232629
I agree Catholics have been supportive of Indians especially more than Protestants. I just jumped in to give an instance of the Church being involved in forced conversions albeit less in that instance compared to other denominations. It's just an issue close to me. I was actually baptized in a Catholic church by an Indian.

[Anonymous No.13232770]

>>13232292
Oh right he gave us a choice, and if you choose wrong its permanent unfathomable punishment. Sort of like how taxes, or the law are optional, right?

[Anonymous No.13232785]

>>13232354
>I tap out when people start responding to the content of my posts
bravo, christer

[Anonymous No.13232790]

>>13232396
This level of pilpul is a natural result of your descending from the synagogue of satan

[Anonymous No.13232836]

>>13232664
Well, it's a sad issue nonetheless, and one that I don't know much about, so at the very least it's an opportunity for me to learn something.

[Anonymous No.13232905]

>>13232770
It is what we deserve for choosing wrong so many times, over and over. But in Christ we are redeemed. I don't know what you are implying with your statement, but God's grace is exactly that: graceful beyond measure.

[Anonymous No.13232943]

>>13232905
Like how people choose wrong when they choose to be born in a time and place without exposure to Christianity?

[Anonymous No.13233091]

>>13232943
You are assuming that everything is in our control, when that is simply not the case. God gives us life and because he loves us and we are made in his image, we are also given a choice to do what we want with that life given to us.
"And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, " Acts 17:26

[Anonymous No.13233137]

>>13233091
No I'm saying everything is not in our control. Is it not Catholic belief that non-Christians go to hell?

[Anonymous No.13233171]

>>13233137
I'm not Catholic. I don't believe that to be the case. the second chapter of Romans does a good job of clarifying that more than I do.

[Anonymous No.13233205]

New thread?

[Anonymous No.13233224]

>>13233171
So anyone who follows God's law will go to heaven even if they don't praise God? Is praising God not part of the law? I'm confused

[Anonymous No.13233253]

>>13232444
It has happened, but it's idiotic to say that Christianity has spread by the sword. Incidents of forced conversion are very limited overall, especially compared to most evangelizing religions.
>>13233224
It is, but in situations where a person has limited awareness of the good through no fault of their own, they are obligated to follow the good as they see it, not to do what they would given full knowledge. (Of course, distorting one's own knowledge of the good, or allowing it to be, can also be sinful)

[Anonymous No.13233265]

>>13233253
What denominations teach this?

[Anonymous No.13233267]

>>13233205
Baking one.

[Anonymous No.13233307]

new bread
>>13233299
>>13233299
>>13233299

[Anonymous No.13233320]

>>13233224
Focus more on verses 12-16 and tell me if it changes anything, sorry I can't better articulate the point, I'm not too good at this.