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/lit/ - Literature

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13944602 No.13944602 [Reply] [Original]

>philosopher argues for absolute freedom and against traditional morality
>spends his life his life engaging in hedonistic and self-destructive behaviour
makes you think

>> No.13944608

>>13944602
literally name 20

>> No.13944609
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13944609

>>13944602
>spends his life his life engaging in hedonistic and self-destructive behaviour

>> No.13944617

>>13944608
I'm not OP, but isn't that the case of Bertrand Russell?

>> No.13944634

>>13944602
You forgot to add
>Lives a fulfilling life

>> No.13944651

>>13944634
>spends his life his life engaging in hedonistic and self-destructive behaviour
>Lives a fulfilling life
You can only choose one.

>> No.13944691

>>13944602
Anti-hedonism is just the hedonism of the weary.

>> No.13944696

>>13944602
>anglo argues about moralism because someone's moralism doesn't adhere to his own version of moralism
alright, moralists. Larping about traditional morality is moralism, engaging in hedonistic lifestyle is another version of moralism. I have yet to see a single intellectual argument on either side.

>> No.13944703

>>13944651
Why should pursuing pleasure not be fulfilling?

>> No.13944744

>>13944703
Having too much pleasure makes you addicted to it. You need more of whatever gives you pleasure, the pleasure gets "smaller", your desire for it increases (leading to all the problems that an increased desire leads to, such as unhappiness, anxiety and poor choices).

>> No.13944747

>>13944703
Well, because pleasure is always accompanied by pain, and any amount of pain frightens weaklings, so by necessity, pleasure needs to be ideologically condemned too.

>> No.13944752

>>13944696
It is simple. Having a hedonistic lifestyle leads to a worse life. It also makes you a worse person.

>> No.13944765

>>13944747
Or, because living a good life is more important than pleasing edgylords on the internet.

>> No.13944775

>>13944744
>Having too much pleasure makes you addicted to it.
If you're pursuing pleasure, would you not do it in a way that avoids addiction as it's not leading to pleasure?

>> No.13944777

>>13944747
>pleasure is always accompanied by pain
Why is pleasure always accompanied by pain?

>> No.13944779

>>13944775
If you
>spends his life his life engaging in hedonistic and self-destructive behaviour
you are obviously not exactly an Epicurean

>> No.13944835

>>13944765
What's a "good life" to you?

>>13944777
Because they are the same thing.

>> No.13944906

>>13944835
They're opposite things

>> No.13944915

>>13944906
Only to the myopic.

>> No.13945055

>>13944835
>>13944915
>everyone who doesn't believe in my views is blind
being a tradfag doesn't mean you have to be a big retard also

>> No.13945074

>>13945055
I don't think the one you are quoting is a trad. That person is against anti-hedonism ]

>> No.13945083

>>13944915
Can you elaborate on their equivalence?

>> No.13945167

>>13944703
>Why should pursuing pleasure not be fulfilling?
Think of Joy as a prey animal. Hedonism is hunting it down to extinction. All the methods of capturing it are null and void; they yield no results.

>> No.13945193

I mean, if he has achieved a place as a widely read philosopher, how self-destructive has his lifestyle really been? He's créme de la creme, part of the cultural elite, probably a tenured academic with a prominent place in society.

>> No.13945204

>>13945193
Being part of the elite doesn't mean you are not miserable.

>> No.13945285

>>13945167
Why should we assume Joy is finite?

>> No.13945325

>>13944752
worse according to what? put some meat on the bones of your value judgements!

>> No.13945331

>>13945325
Unhappier

>> No.13945384

>>13945083
Their equivalence lies in their inseparability and mutual reciprocity. We are conscious of good weather because we are conscious of bad weather; a fire is warming when we are cold to it; we can look down a mountain only when we stand somewhere above the bottom of it; etc. All ups and downs lay in balance with one another in this sense. Thinking there is a way to have one without the other is delusion—even thought has a price which you will pay eventually.

>>13945167
We are not hunters of pleasure; pleasure is the expression of the will overcoming obstacles, dancing in its own light, intoxication of the will. We are the pleasure and also the pain. We are all hedonists no matter what we think or do.

>> No.13945414

>>13945384
You write well, but it is mostly nonsense and don't really answer their posts.

>> No.13945420

>>13945414
What didn't I answer?

>> No.13945470

>>13945384
>Thinking there is a way to have one without the other is delusion
So you mean that if I long for something, I experience pain, and when I obtain that something, I experience pleasure, and in this sense pleasure and pain balances out?

If that's so, can it not be the case that the pleasure of obtaining the something is more powerful than the pain of longing it, so in pursuing pleasure successfully, I end up gainful?

>> No.13945482

>>13944703
Read kierkegaard on esthetes.

>> No.13945496

>>13944617
Bertrand Russell doesn't qualify as a philosopher. He was the liberal version of Peterson for his time.

>> No.13945501

>>13945420
For example, the pleasure you feel when you (for example) eat chocolate is not:
>the expression of the will overcoming obstacles, dancing in its own light, intoxication of the will

This sounds very poetic, but it is not really what happens. The same is true for the first part.

>> No.13945509

>>13945470
You didn't really understand his point.

>> No.13945530

>>13945470
>If that's so, can it not be the case that the pleasure of obtaining the something is more powerful than the pain of longing it, so in pursuing pleasure successfully, I end up gainful?
Yes. And on top of this, you can learn to experience the painful aspect as a desirable stimulant.

>>13945501
How is it not in that case? "The will" includes the taste buds, the chemical reactions, everything about the body.

>> No.13945534

>>13945285
Well, joy may be infinite; but it learns and wants to stay alive.

>> No.13945559

>>13945530
>How is it not in that case? "The will" includes the taste buds, the chemical reactions, everything about the body.
When you eat chocolate or drink coffee, the taste buds are not
>overcoming obstacles, dancing in its own light, intoxication of the will
There is nothing poetic like this. It is much more simple and mundane.

Besides, there is no "pain" in the sense you are aiming for when you eat chocolate or drink coffee (of course there are negative effects for both, but not in the way you are thinking).

>> No.13945633

>>13945559
>There is nothing poetic like this. It is much more simple and mundane.
The body doesn't agree with you.

>Besides, there is no "pain" in the sense you are aiming for when you eat chocolate or drink coffee
What goes up must come down. The pain comes after in the moment of the sensation ending. If you want to live according to your will then you will live according to the oscillations of its wave along the passage of time that it exists in and you will experience the change in its temporal frequency as it rises and then plummets and returns to the other continually. In this light, pleasure can be viewed as an intrinsic part of pain, or vice versa, depending on what you value.

>> No.13945732

>>13945482
I will, but once I get to him

>> No.13945741

>>13945509
Do you want to explain me what I misunderstood then?

>> No.13945768

>>13945530
>Yes. And on top of this, you can learn to experience the painful aspect as a desirable stimulant.
And do you consider this the best and only way to live one's life--pursuing pleasure and ideally coming to terms with the afferent pain? Or what did you mean when you said that "we all hedonists no matter what we think or do"?

>> No.13945775

>>13945534
Is that not the opposite of going extinct? It forces the hunter to grow stronger rather than starving them regardless of their might.

>> No.13945790

>>13945633
>The pain comes after in the moment of the sensation ending.
What if what you feel after consumption is satisfaction and fuliflment rather than regret? Is it not more natural that pain comes before the act in the form of desire?

>> No.13945870

>>13945633
>The body doesn't agree with you.
Yes, it does.
There is no "overcoming your will" or any chuuni thing when you feel pleasure when you drink coffee.

>> No.13945947
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13945947

>>13945285
Think about it this way, Joy is not finite, but the ways to achieve it are. You can only get so much joy out of a task before it takes more and more, eventually you reach a plateau where you can not possibly consume enough to achieve joy, only toleration of existence at best. Its like fatties. At first it feels great feasting on food, then it gets slowly less and less fulfilling and requires more and more food to get any sensation of satisfaction. Eventually they overeat not for joy, but simply out of a mental weakness. Same can be said about most hedonistic pleasure forms. You will require more and more until eventually you can not longer achieve joy via that method. Unless you seek actual fulfilling methods of joy such as self improvement you will never find a real sustainable source of happiness. The only path to happiness is to be a good person and try to find the very few other people in the world like that. Humans are social animals with strong morals and conscience, trying to be happy while being a shit person is impossible, you will be miserable. Whens that last time you saw a bad person smile with any sort of genuineness in their eyes? It is simply and utterly impossible unless we count literal psychopaths and others not of right mental state.

>> No.13946075

>>13945768
I don't consider it the best or the only way. People live in all kinds of ways, even if they don't make sense, and everyone ultimately lives according to lies. Living a lie doesn't necessarily mean your life will be indecent or poor.

>>13945790
Eventually, that satisfaction will fade away and be replaced either with some form of dissatisfaction or with another kind of satisfaction.

>>13945870
The body is overcoming itself when it obtains what it desires and rejoices in something it enjoys.

>> No.13946122

>>13946075
>The body is overcoming itself when it obtains what it desires and rejoices in something it enjoys.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You need to read something besides Nietzsche.

>> No.13946177

>>13946122
Our emotions affect our body temperature and regulate what chemicals the body produces. By living a certain way, we tweak our chemistry and the speed of the body's eventual decay. The body is literally overcoming its own entropy by creating desires for itself to be driven towards life by.

>> No.13946291

>>13946177
You are just grasping at straws in order to try to fit that in your "framework"

>> No.13946339

>>13946291
Provide a convincing alternative view then. Explain to me why the cells in your body survived and not others billions of years ago. Explain why evolution took the course that it did, and why we are full of contradicting desires, and why this is universal among the species on earth. Towards what did everything evolve and why? Why did life give rise to more complex suffering, i.e. human suffering? The question of why we enjoy eating chocolate or why the body has taste buds at all pales in comparison to these yet must be linked to them.

>> No.13946431

>>13946339
Now you are just making a "Chewbacca defense", my dude.

>> No.13946464

>>13945470
>If that's so, can it not be the case that the pleasure of obtaining the something is more powerful than the pain of longing it, so in pursuing pleasure successfully, I end up gainful?

There are a few problems with this view.
One, is that pleasure and happiness are not the same thing.
Two (and this is from a hedonistic point of view), is that people tend to overrate pleasure and underrate pain. For example, thinking that binge drinking will cause more pleasure than pain.
Three, is that when you indulge in pleasure, you end up increasing your desire for it.
Four (and this is also from a hedonistic point of view), is that when you indulge in pleasure, your brain ends up needing more of the source and it leads to less pleasure.

That's why Epicurus, who thought a lot about balancing pleasure and pain, ended up living a very ascetic lifestyle. A NEET version of a Stoic, in practice.

>> No.13946507

>>13946431
If that looked confusing to you or as if there was an intent to confuse, you're not intelligent enough for this conversation.

>> No.13946514

>>13946507
Or, instead of writing clearly and on topic, you end up going to tangents.

>> No.13946530

>>13946514
What was unclear about what I wrote?

>> No.13946558

>>13946530
My dude, you are arguing that when you eat chocolate, the pleasure is:
>the expression of the will overcoming obstacles, dancing in its own light, intoxication of the will
When it is just your body releasing dopamine.

>> No.13946702

>>13946558
What do you think the will is?

>> No.13946772

>>13946702
What is it?

>> No.13946821

>>13946772
I want to know what you think it is.

>> No.13946852

>>13944915
>this thing is actually the same as its opposite
Fuckin G K Chesterton over here

>> No.13946869

>>13946821
I don't know, what is it?

>> No.13946892

>>13946869
If you don't know what you think, then why are you responding as if you do?

>> No.13946896

>>13946892
I don't know man, can't you explain what "will" is?

>> No.13946919

>>13946896
Since you're being an intentionally obtuse ass, I'll just say that what you think the will is is clearly the result of a lack of any deep thought on the matter. I'm not interested in explaining further because of your shitty attitude.

>> No.13946934

>>13946919
A rather embarrassing cop-out

>> No.13946952

>>13944634
Utter Delusion

>> No.13947024

>>13944703
I don’t think land whales ever feel fulfilled, no matter how much they eat.

>> No.13947056

>>13944602
Why does this fucking pic make me die of laughter

>> No.13947137

>>13944703
if you´re man it can´t be fullfiling because when a man ejaculates, it loses energy and you´ll be in a state of fatigue

>> No.13947729

>>13947137
More like a state of content and peace with oneself