/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13963257]

>There is nothing wrong with Capitalism we are just living in a spiritual crisis!

[Anonymous No.13963264]

>>13963257
based anti-capitalist poster

[кoт No.13963268]

>there is something wrong

[Anonymous No.13963270]

The freer the market the freer the people

[Anonymous No.13963275]

>>13963270
gay and low-IQ-pilled

[Anonymous No.13963294]

>>13963275
What's your idea of an efficient well running economy so? Austerity? Communism? Don't make me laugh all you anti capitalist posters are are a gang of retard socialists who don't know the first thing about how to run an economy and always picture yourself running the world in your infantile fantasies about the new 'equal' socialist utopia.

[Anonymous No.13963300]

>>13963294
>economy
>efficient
>well running

All post-civ delusions which enslave the human will.

[Anonymous No.13963306]

>>13963257
Fascists are anti-capitalists too, OP.

[Anonymous No.13963311]

>>13963257
based

[Anonymous No.13963312]

>>13963294
the most efficient running economy is no economy. economy is a spook

[Anonymous No.13963315]

>>13963306
Fascism is Capitalism in crisis. Stop being a contrarian loser and just take the final redpill ie. Marxism.

[Anonymous No.13963318]

>>13963300
The competition that comes naturally with a free market always result in a superior product being created. That's literally how it works.
>All post-civ delusions which enslave the human will.
Don't know what you mean by that, sounds like you just made it up.

[Anonymous No.13963323]

>>13963312
I guess that's why we all strive to try to recreate the good old days of hunter gatherer times when there was no economy.

[Anonymous No.13963329]

>>13963318
>The competition that comes naturally with a free market always result in a superior product being created
Ok, just be sure to never look up any stats or history on this

[Anonymous No.13963330]

>>13963257
>spiritual crisis!
Only compared to the 60's 70's and 80's post war economic boom.
Compared to the rest of history and all its wars, plagues, poverty and class distinction you are living in heaven.
>ing4 "B-But the mental health and the rising number of depressed people!"
Thats compared to the previous prosperity boom, also that kind of data only began being collected and properly treated in the last few decades. During most of european history people held suicide with another standard for various reasons. Even the people in the noble rulling class had various mental breakdowns and went insane.

[Anonymous No.13963339]

>>13963329
If that's true then how come we in the free market countries live in the age of plenty we do now? It's not like North Korea or the Soviet Union were particularly well known for their high standard of living or freedom to say whatever one wants.

[Anonymous No.13963342]

>>13963323
yes but now it's gonna be in a post apocalyptic nuclear winterland instead

[Anonymous No.13963392]

>>13963312
If Marxism is true then why didn't the Bolshevik revolution lead to the establishment of the communist utopia?

[Anonymous No.13963407]

>He thinks there's anything wrong

[Anonymous No.13963478]

>>13963339
Not him but
>The drudgery of seeking subsistence has been supplanted for
millions of people, not by abundance and indulgence, but rather by a new concept of what are
necessities and needs.

Also,
>It is in the almost complete absence of other sustained macro-political and social narratives that the pursuit of the ‘good life’ through practices of what is known as ‘consumerism’ has
become one of the dominant global social forces, cutting across differences of religion,
class, gender, ethnicity and nationality.

>While infomercials and
home shopping networks constituted a $94 billion annual industry (in contrast to the $42 billion
spent on medical research); there were more shopping malls than high-schools in the United-States
at the end of the 20th century.

Copy-pasted from my iPhone 10X™

[Anonymous No.13963486]

>>13963478
Badly copy-pasted*

[Anonymous No.13963487]

>>13963257
What is capitalism? Other than a boogeyman for unthinking ideological cretins.

[Anonymous No.13963493]

>>13963487
It's whatever I don't like about politics naturally, it's not like market forces are just manifestations of human forces and natural systems.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13963601]

>>13963270
>The freer the market the freer the people already in power are to enslave
Study some history

>>13963306
They might not be free market fundies, but they are capitalists

[Anonymous No.13963642]

>There is nothing wrong with Liberalism we just live in an unequal society!

[Anonymous No.13963657]

>>13963315
>taught at every western university
Yeah, really working outside the establishment, dangerous ideas the elite is scared to fund! Maybe you could make that case for some forms of Stalinism, that being quasi-fascistic.

[Anonymous No.13963846]

>>13963407
Ass

[Anonymous No.13963867]

>>13963601
Yes, because extreme centralized government control was great for the liberation of people too.

I agree truisms are usually dumb, but turning them on their head is usually equally as dumb too.

[Anonymous No.13963877]

>>13963846
Two in the Pinker, one in the Stinker.

[Anonymous No.13963890]

>>13963315
Fiscally? yes.

Ideologicaly? Hell no. Leans more towards the Socialism.

[Anonymous No.13963902]

>>13963264
nazbol gang?

[Anonymous No.13963937]

If you have a solution to the problem other than depriving people of the freedom to do whatever they wish with their own resources and labour go ahead. Otherwise get lost, we need fewer authoritarians and collectivists not more.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13963947]

>>13963867
I wasn’t advocating fascism. I’m an anarchist.

[Anonymous No.13963973]

>>13963937
Socialism is all about freedom though
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-man/

[Anonymous No.13963978]

>>13963270
Free market propose absolutely no solution to the wage-slave problematic. In any case it even encourage harsher and harsher exploitation of foreign workforce.

[Anonymous No.13963981]

the rise of capitalism is itself an expression of a spiritual crisis. take both koreas as an example. both represent the two extremes of western materialism

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13963986]

>>13963937
Socialists have had the solution for a long time, but complications and severe resistance have kept the facts of the matter from reaching you thus far.
Here’s two easy sounding steps that capitalists resist with extreme bloodletting:
1. Democracy in the workplace. (Cutting out the corporate fat and owner class entirely)
2. Non-accumulative currency. (Pre-computer age it was difficult to implement, but now is an app away.

[Anonymous No.13963992]

>>13963306
>Wage labor
>a market
>Fascists are anti-capitalists
Do you even have a clue about what you are talking about?

[Anonymous No.13964016]

>>13963315
Marxism is pseudoscientific drivel. Anarchism is the white pill.

[Anonymous No.13964027]

>>13963986
>not allowing people to start and build a business or save up money (resources).

Oppressive crap. Relying on digital currency is retarded, it makes the state tracking and interfering with how people spend much easier and makes society even more vulnerable to electrical problems.

[Anonymous No.13964042]

>>13963947
ok. I cant wait of the day when the old greek idea of "If you dont like a particular governance, then just go to a different city state" will be able to happen again if we can ever get space colonization up and running. Now, pretty much everywhere is controlled by a more or less similar state structure. Where is my star wars style veriety?

[Anonymous No.13964075]

>>13963986
Dont tottaly disagree with you, but direct democrasies are usualy pretty unstable unless people are well educated and in relatively small groups. Public opinion is easily swayed and the corpore usualy needs a head for decissiveness. however, this is not always the cause. the dutch west india company had a pretty interesting form of semi-representive democracy that works pretty well.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13964089]

>>13964027
>Makes up crap
>it is oppressive
It doesn’t require a state. States are against these measures in fact. Everything you say is weird overreactions. Calm down. You want some sources to read through?

>>13964042
The future is just going to keep getting weirder and weirder

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13964102]

>>13964075
A workplace is a pretty small grouping, and it would be a very good idea to make a society of well educated people

[Anonymous No.13964125]

>>13964102
>A workplace is a pretty small grouping, and it would be a very good idea to make a society of well educated people

You never worked a day in your life have you

[Anonymous No.13964178]

>>13964102
Sounds inefficient, and too idealistic. Likely people will just "Vote" for the best guy and he'll just run most things whether he gets more benefit for it who knows. I guess there would be more subdivisions that vote on their own things? Every workplace is different. I mean it's a little better I guess. There's going to be stupid people no matter what.

[Anonymous No.13964180]

>>13964102
Tru. This would also necessitate the decrease in specialization of labor as most people would need experience in operations alongside there particular job. I think this would be especialy tenable in companies of upwards of 20 people. However, interest distinctions would inevitably occur, especially as a venture increases in population. But with increase in population, increase in specialization is probably necissary for dedicated logistical concerns and other operations.

[Anonymous No.13964215]

>>13964016
Anarchism is what happens when you realize everything, and I mean everything, that is touched by organized religion, culture, or market, is artificial, and there's no reason for it to exist in another configuration. It is the end result of realizing that monarchies, theocracies, democracies, autocracies, etc are all equally valid by their context in history and culture. Transposing those systems into inappropriate times and societies, they become crimes or logical impossibilities.

Anarchism is the stance of people who've broken their relative perspective. It's a kind of social-awareness insanity.

[Anonymous No.13964238]

>>13964089
not that guy but im interested in those sources.

[Anonymous No.13964291]

>>13963270
>freedom
meme

[Anonymous No.13964302]

>>13963257
but there is nothing wrong with capitalism, it works perfectly.

[Anonymous No.13964318]

this thread really proves that /lit/ is retarded and in fact does not read books

[Anonymous No.13964354]

>>13963294
The vast majority of "the economy" would be pointless if everyone just lived more modestly and was nicer to each other
Why is efficiency your highest concern?

[Anonymous No.13964420]

>>13963986
>democracy in the workplace
Is this actually a tenet of socialism? I wouldn't trust a coworker to wipe his own ass properly, much less having a say in how things are run

[Anonymous No.13964430]

>>13963601
>Study some history
Gut yourself, you fucking bug.

[Anonymous No.13964434]

>>13963270
There is no such thing as free markets.

[Anonymous No.13964461]

>>13964302
Yes, it is perfectly fulfilling its purpose.
Capitalism is not failing at, it is a failure.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13964488]

>>13964420
So get into a business with someone you would trust, bozo.
And how much say so do you have in the HR dept? Zero, right?

>>13964125
I have.
>>13964178
>Sounds inefficient, and too idealistic
You’d be wrong. Like a little pauper whimpering “but the king is the best things we have!”
>>13964180
Mondragon seems to do well.

>>13964238
Richard Wolff and Paul Cockshott. Also on youtube. Enjoy

[Anonymous No.13964685]

>>13963257
both takes are retarded if you're just gonna discard spirituality dumbass

[Anonymous No.13964735]

>>13963601
This is the only age in our history that doesn't have slavery. The fuck are you on about?

[Anonymous No.13964784]

>>13963294
>efficient economy
>economy whose profit motive has lead to our self cannibalizing shitstain of a society that will lead us either to human extinction or a dark age within the next century.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13964852]

>>13964735
1. It’s not a “free market” capitalist economy. The neoclassical liberals will tell that
2. There’s this little thing called a debt. We’re wage slaves. Still slaves to the “upper” class. We don’t need this class to survive. They make the world a cesspool and battle ground for their aggrandizement. We are their slaves.

[Anonymous No.13964907]

>>13964852
>1. It’s not a “free market” capitalist economy.
How isn't it? The only thing stopping you from starting your own business right now is you, assuming you live in the United States, or most other first world countries. There are no laws in place which specifically prevent you from starting a business. Once upon a time, it was only a very specific class—wealthy white men—who could do such things.

>2. There’s this little thing called a debt.
Debt does not automatically make you a slave. An indentured servant is not a slave, yet has a debt to pay. Debt today is also voluntary.

[Anonymous No.13964912]

>>13963257
>capitalism is bad

[Anonymous No.13964943]

>>13963270
This

[Anonymous No.13964946]

>>13964354
Because competition for bigger slice of the global economic pie. If you didn't force people to make useless toys, someone else would make those useless toys, sell them and acquire money. Money someone else makes is money you don't earn. Add to that the fact wealth concentrates under capitalism, so if you don't constantly enlarge the national pie, the working class will get less and less of it. And if you tried to make up for it by taxing the owning class, they will just relocate their assets to another country screwing you even more.

Global capital is a bitch.

[Anonymous No.13965011]

>>13964852
>it's not a "free market" the neoclassicals say
Not what they say. It's an *imperfect* free market, not an unfree market.
>debt
Most creditors in the modern world tend to be those on the poorer end of the spectrum. The wealthier tend to be the debtors. People with large assets tend to also have taken out large loans, which is why individual businesses default so often.
There are also regulations on what you can do with your debtor. We do not live in the 19th century; people are not allowed to imprison others for debt. There's a thing called declaring bankruptcy and it can be used to get rid of all debt when one cannot pay it back.
Also, "slavery" agreed to by the slave isn't exactly slavery.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13965078]

>>13964907
>1.
Hah. I’m not going to argue this point too hard. It’s the neoclassical liberals (aka Libertarian Party) that think everything will be wonderful when the government stays out of free enterprise, ends the Federal Reserve and goes back on the gold standard. This is their pet project and I don’t think any of it would help a damn thing.
>2.
There are differing levels of slavery. Wage slaves have a different deal than chattel slaves or like Roman house slaves and galley slaves. The deal is the same in one basic distinction and that is you are not free.
You are born into your working class family, and you do have scant opportunity to become one of the upper-crust owner class, but so did some of the Roman debtor slaves, if their masters felt like it. Taken care of, the Roman slave actually had it better, in some ways, than the wage-slave. Certainly better than the industry-slave. The modern debtor slaves have to earn their money and live off of it till the next job. If work dries up, tough luck. No master has to look out for you. Go find a church pew to sleep in.
We shouldn’t have to “earn a living” is what socialists say. We’re for working, but not this ridiculous overworking the wealthy make us do.

>>13964943
No. Not that. Capitalism enslaves.

[Anonymous No.13965109]

>>13965078
Slavery!=lack of security but lack of ability to choose how you will react to your circumstances. The fundamental idea of "freedom" in the Capitalistic sense is different from in the non-Capitalistic. Thinkers like Stuart Mill posited an idea of freedom that was the ability of people to find their own moralities/values and act on them in their own lives because they will always know better than a third party how to behave in their own lives.
>if their masters felt like it
This is the fundamental difference: Capitalists can become wealthy without favour from masters, slaves cannot.
Also, conflating security with freedom as you attempt to in your last few sentences is absurd.

[Anonymous No.13965116]

>>13963270
Free the cartels!

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13965131]

>>13965011
All moot points.
No, I did not agree to work the best years of my life for a shit salary for long stupid always changing hours with no reasonable healthcare till I’m nearly 70. No, it will not do me any good to fi d a different jailor, another ball and chain to drag around till it breaks my back. And no, I do not wish to have ever been one of the little jailers and own my own business.

(I did want to be a filmmaker, and am fully aware of the justifiable hierarchy involved. But it never happened)

>>13965109
WAGE-SLAVERY I already said, is not the same as other types.

[Anonymous No.13965156]

>>13965131
>no, I did not agree to work as a janitor
You did. In fact, you were not asked; you asked. You chose them. It would be like going up to a slave master and asking "hey, can I be your slave? I have a form here that says why I would be a good option." You chose it.
>it will not do me good to be another person's janitor
Well, you can choose to not be a janitor if you want to. That's kind of the opposite of slavery, no?
>wage-slavery is not the same as other types
Slavery has a particular definition. You can't just meld that to be "entitlement" without losing all arguments as to why slavery is bad. If slavery is merely not doing exactly what you want at all times, then it's perfectly fine. But if you mean slavery as in the normal definition of slavery, then "wage-slavery" doesn't fall into it, as we have both agreed.

[Anonymous No.13965195]

>>13965078
>Wage slaves have a different deal than chattel slaves or like Roman house slaves and galley slaves.
There is no "wage slave." There are people who choose to take jobs that pay wages to make money. If they are in debt and must work to pay it off, they chose to take on that debt, or their family chose for them. But it was all a choice, both the debt and the job. There are many ways to make money and, again, no laws in place preventing you from taking them. Slavery, by definition, means you do not have a choice.

Equating what you're born into, like a debt that your parents accrued or a certain genetic disposition towards a certain line of work, with slavery, is a fool's errand, by the way. If that's slavery, your idea of what freedom is is literally impossible in the physical world.

>>13965131
>No, I did not agree to work the best years of my life for a shit salary for long stupid always changing hours with no reasonable healthcare till I’m nearly 70.
Yes you did, or your parents agreed to it for you. That does not mean you are a slave. You can also make money other ways if you wanted to, or were capable of. Like I said before, the only obstacle is you, not society.

[Anonymous No.13965219]

You relegate yourself to the status of a machine for the benefit of Man. By submitting yourself to the will of machines, we collectively find safety, efficiency, precision.

For a minimum of 40 hours per week, you are a machine. For 56, you sleep. For 14 hours, you prepare for and travel to/from work.

At best, you are left with 1/3 of your time on Earth to be a Man.

[Anonymous No.13965296]

>>13965156
>You did. In fact, you were not asked; you asked. You chose them. It would be like going up to a slave master and asking "hey, can I be your slave? I have a form here that says why I would be a good option." You chose it.
And how did one person come to be a slave master? How did today’s capitalists become in control of billions of dollars of assets, much more wealth than it is possible for one person to create? Right-libertarianism only makes sense in an ahistorical vacuum.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.13965314]

>>13965195
>There is no "wage slave.
There is you jobless trustfund kiddy cunt
May the tankies shoot you down

[Anonymous No.13965353]

>>13965195
>Yes you did, or your parents agreed to it for you. That does not mean you are a slave. You can also make money other ways if you wanted to, or were capable of. Like I said before, the only obstacle is you, not society.
Or I can decide to organize politically instead of trying to compete in a game in which even the most cursory study of the odds would reveal them to be rigged against me, like a gambler in a lottery.

[Anonymous No.13965384]

>>13965314
I have a job. I chose it myself off of Indeed, based on what I'm good at, and where my past experiences have taken me. I don't consider myself a "slave" to my own genes and family history, because that would be a futile, not to mention retarded, effort.

Your suffering stems from you and/or your parents being pathetic, not from society. Acknowledging that is one of the first steps in pulling yourself out of the shit, but you're too prideful and resentful to do that apparently, so you're stuck in it.

[Anonymous No.13965396]

>>13965195
all ideology. your thought is stuck within the framework and abstractions of the current system. vvery shortsighted.

[Anonymous No.13965401]

>>13965195
extremely low IQ post

[Anonymous No.13965419]

>>13963601
Dilate.

[Anonymous No.13965422]

>>13965353
>Or I can decide to organize politically
Go ahead. You're up against world military and special forces units. You're also extremely delusional and retarded and ill-equipped to fight for yourself. But it's your choice.

>>13965396
>all ideology.
What isn't ideology?

[Anonymous No.13965432]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=CysJLhfeaVc
fuck commie tourists

[Anonymous No.13965436]

>>13965422
>Go ahead. You're up against world military and special forces units.
Voting is against the world military? Protesting? Forming labor unions? Striking? That's weird I thought they were supposed to be here to protect our freedoms.
>You're also extremely delusional and retarded and ill-equipped to fight for yourself
That's why it's called organizing. As opposed to your individualistic vision of the world where everyone is in competition to be the best at exploiting his fellow man.
>What isn't ideology?
Material analysis of the relations and modes of production.

[Anonymous No.13965442]

>>13965436
huh?

[Anonymous No.13965449]

>>13965442
huh? huh? huh?

[Anonymous No.13965454]

>>13965436
>That's weird I thought they were supposed to be here to protect our freedoms.
They are. You're the one here who's against them.

>"Material analysis of the relations and modes of production."
>not ideology
lol, jfc

[Anonymous No.13965476]

>>13963264
>Christina Hoff Sommers
Yeah, I'm thinking that's cringe.

[Anonymous No.13965479]

>>13965454
>analysing something by its material composition is ideological
based retard

[Anonymous No.13965486]

>>13965479
>analysis is ideological
Correct.

[Anonymous No.13965492]

>>13963257
I don't know if there is anything wrong with capitalism, but western leftists are motivated by something which is fundamentally spiritual.

[Anonymous No.13965499]

>>13965486
>still being retarded
glad it wasn't a fluke

[Anonymous No.13965511]

>>13965499
There are no facts, only interpretations.

[Anonymous No.13965522]

>>13965511
>losing an argument so badly you have to literally deny the existence of truth and falsehood

[Anonymous No.13965539]

>>13965522
>being so ill-read in philosophy you don't even know that basic bitch quote from Nietzsche
You and I aren't on the same level at all. You're way too stupid for this conversation. I also take it that your garbage analysis is the result of you having no proper education whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.13965562]

>>13965539
Not an argument

[Anonymous No.13965574]

>>13965562
Read a book.

[Anonymous No.13965575]

>>13963257
I unironically believe in illiterate anarchy. We've killed the Earth and ourselves

[Anonymous No.13965587]

>>13963257
>There is nothing wrong with Capitalism we are just living in a spiritual crisis
There's plenty wrong, read Aquinas on Usury

[Anonymous No.13965595]

>>13963270
"Freedom" is precisely the problem. The definition of freedom, much like most of Enlightenment terminology, is a very inversion of the the word.

[Emonationalist !!HxQhKkNYVzK No.13965601]

>>13963257
Capitalism is part of the spiritual crisis.
>>13965539
>>13965562
Arguing w/ lefties online beez like
"Chex dis viewpoint nigga!"
"U r dumb"
"Wat lol y?"
"Ur dummy dumb. Ur trash."
"Explain pls"
"Reed bök NOW"
"I DID REED"
"U r a sukhead"
"Wow u r the greatest idiot i"f ever seen!"