Who is the Beethoven of literature?

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Anonymous Fri Oct 18 04:31:10 2019 No.14012673 [Reply] [Original]

Who is the Beethoven of literature?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 04:34:57 2019 No.14012683 >>14012673 Your moms ass crack. Now fuck off and make an actual decent thread.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 04:37:40 2019 No.14012689

Shakespeare. He had the same power and magnitude...

...While not being the best one, who happens to be Dante and, in Beethoven's case, another very religious man: Bach.

Yet the simple-minded individual will still say Beethoven and Shakespeare are better than Bach and Dante.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 04:47:27 2019 No.14012719 >>14012689 But Beethoven is better than Bach. The Missa Solemnis is a better religious offering than anything Bach wrote.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 04:48:29 2019 No.14012721 >>14012683 Be the change you wish to see in the world. Fuck off and make it yourself.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 04:53:57 2019 No.14012738

>>14012719
Look, I like quite a few of Beethoven's works, but I could literally pick a random prelude or fugue from the well tempered clavier and it would probably be better than all of beethoven's compositions combined.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xW-dH0a23s
maybe listen to bach sometimes

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 05:05:46 2019 No.14012756 Correct answer is Goethe, synthesising previous literature and innovating the way forward into 19th century Romanticism. But let's not get in the way of another fascinating Dante vs Shakespeare, Bach vs Beethoven thread, Messi vs Ronaldo thread.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 05:12:40 2019 No.14012771 File: 206 KB, 635x800, Homer_British_Museum.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14012689 >Dante anon...

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 05:19:14 2019 No.14012789 >>14012719 >>14012738 I like Bach's music the most, but I like Beethoven more as a composer.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 05:37:20 2019 No.14012829

>>14012738
Not that anon, but I'm unable to get into Bach and after hearing so much about him I want to. Even the piece you just posted, what am I listening for? When I listen to other composer's pieces I can feel it deep in me but everytime I try listen to Bach it elicits no response other than boredom, sometimes it just sounds like they're mashing random keys on the piano/harpsichord. It doesn't sound beautiful and I don't feel anything from it. Is it only enjoyable if you know music theory? If so can you give me resources to learn how to enjoy Bach? You can call me a pleb or retarded or whatever, but I just can't see any appeal in Bach and I'd like to. He's the only big composer who does nothing for me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 06:06:16 2019 No.14012904 Nietzsche

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 06:21:24 2019 No.14012945

>>14012829
Bach only really clicked for me once I started playing him, there's so much going on even in a little two part invention. The way the melodies interact with each other and make the harmony appear. I could play the c minor invention all day, and its very much minor Bach. I'm nowhere near good enough to play one of the great fugues but they must be stratospheric in comparison.
But there is no universal composer or artist who can appeal to everyone, everywhere. Nothing wrong with not liking him

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 06:25:38 2019 No.14012949

>>14012829
Not that anon either and ESL here so sorry for my English. I love Bach though. I'm guessing it's due to the polyphonic nature of his music that you find it difficult to appreciate? I don't really know if it's something that you can be taught to love, or if some people just like it more than others.

Homophonic music (the opposite of polyphonic music sort of, and what most composers wrote after the baroque period) consists of one voice, one melody line to follow and the other voices are all there to support that line with harmony, but not take focus from that main line.

Polyphonic music on the other hand is based on several voices, several melodic lines working more independently of each other and kind of battling over stealing focus from the listener while still working together to make up the harmony. That's probably why it can be difficult to listen to if you're unused to it. In a way it may require more active listening. Try listening to it and try to follow other voices than the top one (which is what we're used to being the melody line in other music). It's a bit like following a fast paced witty dialogue in a movie where you have to see the movie several times to catch it all. But you can still appreciate it on first viewing despite that, because your brain is almost overloaded with impressions in a good way.

Of course if you get into the music theory of it as well and realize the enormous skill required to write what he did, his economic use of themes etc., that adds another level to it as well. But I don't think it's necessary to appreciate his music. It just requires a different kind of listening that can be difficult if you're not used to it. But when and if you get it, you appreciate it just as much as other music and not just on an intellectual level but very viscerally.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 06:42:19 2019 No.14012982

>>14012829
>Not that anon, but I'm unable to get into Bach and after hearing so much about him I want to.

Just go through his masses, cantatas and concertos. Way too many people approach him through piano renditions of his solo keyboard pieces and are stooped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii-ltNvbvnQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFpQP7vDO50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjSD12OQbFA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexJQ8VWJfY

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 07:18:52 2019 No.14013067

>>14012829
im the one you originally replied to. i know virtually zero musical theory and i've never played an instrument in my life. i wouldn't know to lay down the beauty of bach in any technical terms, but if I had to explain it in a somehow - it would be the simplicity and seemingly evident nature of his music. the music doesn't have long, grandiose, epic moments like in beethoven or dvorak and to a certain extent I don't think you necessarily listen 'for something' when you listen to bach, as opposed to the other two, because I find it hard to believe that people don't listen to almost all symphonies for a few key 'culminating' moments (the beginning of the Part IV, new world symphony, dvorak; end of the 5th symphony, beethoven and such );
especially for Bach's solo keyboard works, the interpreter matters very much. to me, versions of the same piece, let's say, played by Richter and Gould, are incomparable (i prefer Richter for 99% of solo keyboard catalog that he recorded). so I would first try to find a style of an interpreter that you like, to give a few examples: Sviatoslav Richter (like I said, my preference; as a listener, I find him to be as important to Bach's music as Bach himself, and without any exaggeration), Glenn Gould, Nikolayeva, Andras Schiff.
I find Agnus dei (from mass in B; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS2biN257sQ ) to sound very shallow if the alto isn't andreas scholl. He has an amazing piety in his voice and he seems to deeply understand the metaphysical message of the piece.
some favorite pieces from the WTC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZN6CVBBLq4 , the prelude
https://youtu.be/uB4in7eMv1A?t=86 , the fugue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXnRl6VHzjI , prelude and fugue, this one is a giant composition, most clearly one of bach's absolute finest, in my opinion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDY_4n9PHLQ , hands down the most actively 'engaging'/'epic' piece by Bach (it is and will probably remain my ONE favorite bach piece); the fugue theme is like a divine war scream, incredibly powerful. specifically listen to the first 50 seconds or so and the last 30 seconds. the ending is like a beam of light piercing darkness away, i can't think of any cathartic moment in any art i've come across that even compares to it or even words to perfectly describe it. a hymn of power, balance and perfection. kay johannsen also, a genius
all in all, bach's beauty is not about some mathematical perfection in its harmony or something like that. to put it simply, his music is sentimental at times, melancholic, pious other times unrelenting, concise, powerful, heroic. I'll end with what I definitely do not like in Bach's music (or any music for that matter): clear sorrow, it makes him seem dull. one example of this is his famous Chaconne.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 07:23:33 2019 No.14013082 >>14013067 ps: my favorite pieces from the WTC book 1, all played by richter: preludes: 2, 4, 8, 12, 13, 16, 20, 22 fugues: 2 ,4, 6, 8, 13, 20, 24 do yourself a favor and listen to all of those. played by sviatoslav richter ,can't stress this enough

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 07:28:51 2019 No.14013100 >>14012756 Based goetheposter. I havent been able to get a grip of him myself. Seems impossible to know where to start with that fucker. Said to be the last all-round genius.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 07:30:45 2019 No.14013109 >>14012673 It’s Heinrich von Kleist. Not in the sense of fame and prominence, but aesthetics and temperament. Both revolutionized their craft in their time. Kleist for example was way ahead of his time, Goethe even failed to see his genius.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 08:00:10 2019 No.14013180 >>14012829 listen to this: https://youtu.be/eUOEg0Ab1ig

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 08:23:12 2019 No.14013229 bump

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:11:24 2019 No.14013368

>>14012949
To add to what I wrote:
If you want something easy to listen to by Bach, to ease yourself into his language, you could (I know this is blasphemous to say) try listening to Stokowski's transcriptions of Bach's pieces for full symphony orchestra, for more dramatic renditions of Bach's music. Some people think they're terrible since it's not what Bach intended others think that if they'd had modern orchestras in Bach's time he would have used them. The great thing with Bach is that his music still can sound amazing no matter the instrument. Even on a $5 keyboard. It's not (not always) dependent on timbre. Although he can use timbre to great effect as well.

Also try Bach's more homophonic pieces. Basically everything with Air in the title and things like this adagio from one of his violin concertos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BApAF0DwSW8
is more based on one melodic line.
Even the chaconne the other anon mentioned, that one's even monophonic (only one voice, no accompaniment). Bach being Bach though can't help writing polyphonic music even when it's only one voice. So in some parts the melody jumps up and down creating two lines alternating between each other, and some parts require the violinist to play more than one string at once.

On the flip side there are some great contrapuntal/polyphonic pieces by later composers. There's for example the Grosse Fuge by Beethoven:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAgdd2VqLVc
And the prelude to Meistersingers by Wagner is very polyphonic as well as dramatic. There's a transcription of it by Glenn Gould for the piano that almost does the opposite of what Stokowski did with his orchestral Bach transcriptions. It takes the music and slims it down to its bare essentials making all the individual voices stand out clearly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wpwL0EWSa0

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:17:30 2019 No.14013398 >>14013368 >like this adagio from one of his violin concertos: >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BApAF0DwSW8 Sorry, wrong link that was the chaconne. I meant this piece: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SZIjDn3GYqc

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:29:36 2019 No.14013439 >>14013100 Was that ability inborn? If not, why don't you or the rest of us do itm God knows it'd be better than neetery or wage slavery

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:45:39 2019 No.14013490 Who is the Schoenberg of literature?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:49:29 2019 No.14013506 >>14013490 Musil or Mann

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:49:50 2019 No.14013508 File: 10 KB, 300x300, Wagner with hat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14012673 >all these fools itt arguing about who the best musician and poet is I have arrived...

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:52:06 2019 No.14013516 >>14013508 He's good and everything, but 9/10 people who say he's the bestest thing ever are actually plebs

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:57:42 2019 No.14013551 >>14013508 Kek. Best part is it's something Wagner himself could have said.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 09:59:57 2019 No.14013565 >>14012673 Goethe. If anyone says otherwise they have no idea what they're talking about

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:01:07 2019 No.14013569

>>14012829
I used to have the same reaction. You don't need music theory, the thing is that the principles of Bach's composing are different from the homophonic textures we're used to today. To me the most helpful listening were Gould's recordings of the keyboard suites, because his playing and the recording are maximally transparent, allowing you to tell apart the distinct melodies with least difficulty, and then to put them back together into a whole in your head. Bach definitely needs a lot of attention and focus, as you have to follow multiple melodies at the same moment, - following with a score or one of those visualised recordings on Youtube might be helpful - how they interact, follow, outflank, jump over and run through each other. He's not a composer of stereotypical classical music pathos, his work is usually modest in gesture, cerebral and "rational", but not necessarily in the sense that you need music theory to enjoy it. (Though he does have moments of terrific emotion too, such as Herr, Herr, unser Herrscher from Johannespassion.)

>>14012756
This. Considering the irreversible historical development changing the contexts of art, it makes no sense to compare Beethoven and his role in history to, say, Shakespeare's, considering the fact that they worked almost two centuries apart.

>>14013100
Werther is the typical place to start, since it almost perfectly embodied the romanticist spirit and ideas, the passive main character, Weltschmerz, etc, and it was his most popular work at the time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:04:05 2019 No.14013583 >>14013516 >implying Hitler the Conjiugator was a pleb >>14013551 >implying he didn't say it

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:05:08 2019 No.14013589 Kid is relatively quite new to music theory has a question: If something is polyphonic is it by necessity counterpoint or is it only the other way around?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:09:46 2019 No.14013621 >>14012689 virgin

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:12:47 2019 No.14013630

>>14012689
I don't think its unpopular at all to think beethoven is better than bach, its very widely substantiated. I mean really its hard to contrast them as beethoven was classicic/romantic, and bach was baroque. Even in terms of the intelluctual beethovens gross fuge is the most insane double fuge you will ever see. Your just trying to be edgy because most people don't listen to bach. Also its hard to make a direct comparison as bach preceded beethoven and kinda invented music, so its just pathetic and stupid to compare them in any serious sense, because greatness doesn't mean shit. I mean shakespeare is a dumb answer because he was fucking english and beethoven was german, so goethe would be the ony answer really applicable, both were successful in their lifetime as well.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:15:37 2019 No.14013646 >>14013082 Glenn gould is best. Combat me cur.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:21:46 2019 No.14013668 >>14013646 I don't like the way he hums.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:48:24 2019 No.14013758 >>14013668 that is valid. some of his earlier recordings dont have the hum

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:49:31 2019 No.14013763 >>14012673 John Milton

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 10:50:14 2019 No.14013768 >>14012673 Milton

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:10:45 2019 No.14013853

>>14013630
>because most people don't listen to Bach.
Bruh. Sure Beethoven is in a very hierarchical (and culminating) sense better, but I mean Bach still remains a genius and one of the greatest artistic geniuses ever - if you don't listen to Bach you're a Brainlet. Each of his works retain their value no matter our level of advancement for they shall always retain eternal in it. Simplicity will never lose its quality which is itself. And Bach's simplicity exists only in his tools, not his creation.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:16:43 2019 No.14013879 >>14013630 >Your just disregarded

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:21:48 2019 No.14013899

/lit/
>has the best music discussions
>has the best art discussions in general
>has the best anime discussions
>has the best political discussions
>has the best history discussions
>has the best genetic discussions
>has the best economics discussions
>(possibly still) has the best memes
By no competition best board.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:22:06 2019 No.14013900

>>14013565
I haven't read all Goethe and I am not well versed into musical theory but it seems to me that Beethoven was something of a rageous tempest while Goethe repudiated feelings for his love of classical though he likely recognized and respected Beethoven's genius. They are only alike in geniality

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:22:55 2019 No.14013906 >>14013899 That's quite horrifying, considering how shitty /lit/ is nonetheless.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:25:15 2019 No.14013917 >>14013899 i love /lit/

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:26:03 2019 No.14013919 >>14013906 I know right, it used to be better in 18. I can only imagine what prosperity it had pre-election. Though I did here it was quite uptight and wasn't exactly a meme board at one stage so I could be wrong.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:27:40 2019 No.14013924

>>14013917
the only board I browse continuously still, all other boards I just go to every now and then. I started on /pol/ but once I got the few basic redpills I realise how stupid it was and migrated to /lit/, I do believe this is where the smart polacks go.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:27:45 2019 No.14013925 >>14012829 (attentively) listen to the st Matthew passion in one sitting https://youtu.be/3k4Ph-H5ZO4

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:32:32 2019 No.14013939

>>14013899
You shouldn't be surprised since the nature of the board ostensibly filters out people who don't read.

This is why discussion of philosophy are often actually fruitful, because a /phil/ board would attract tons of /x/ tier retards and /sci/ rejects who've never read Aristotle arguing about 'the meaning of life' or why quantum physics means we have free will.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:32:38 2019 No.14013941

>>14013919
>it used to be better in 18.
Honestly, I don't see much of a difference, even when trying to compare with how it was 5 years ago when I started browsing this place. It's just the same stuff over and over again, the feeling of shittiness is probably just a consequence of boredom and stagnation. For what it's worth, there was aggressive /pol/posting (Culture of Critique and such stuff) last year that has entirely calmed down by now. But the essential state of things is the same.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:40:39 2019 No.14013964

>>14013900
I'll also add that they didn't share the same attitude towards the order of the world: beethoven was rebellious and goethe respectful of the institutions, like in that probably made up story where they met a bunch of noblemen in their promenade, Goethe went aside and bowed while Beethoven forced his way in without responding to their greetings

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:40:48 2019 No.14013966 >>14012719 Lmao the Missa Solemnis is better than any of the Passions or the Mass in B minor, not to mention the Oratorios, cantatas and Motifs...I bet you also prefer Handel, retard

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:45:02 2019 No.14013976

>>14013941
Maybe it's why I liked it more last year because I was starting off, and the whole novelty - as with starting with anyboard - was there. Maybe even the aggressive pol posting eased me into it more but I do just know that I find it less entertaining. Even earlier this year with the whole pseud kant meme was funny.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:46:21 2019 No.14013978 >>14013966 Leave Handel out of this.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:53:07 2019 No.14014002 >>14013978 It's fine he can Handel himself.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:53:22 2019 No.14014003 >>14013899 /classical/ is better for music

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:54:10 2019 No.14014008 >>14014003 qrd?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:56:15 2019 No.14014015 a >who is the Beethoven of literature thread can turn into an indepth dialogue, analysis and comparison of counterpoint. Thank you /lit/.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:57:08 2019 No.14014018 >>14014008 Thread on /mu/ with info and downloads in the OP, and a good level of discussion with knowledgeable and informed posters

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 11:58:43 2019 No.14014023 >>14014018 I was expecting cpp on /mu/ when I first browsed there but all I got was rap and nigger hipsters.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 12:54:09 2019 No.14014249 Beethoven's late quartets are some of the greatest creations in the history of mankind and no other composer has ever come close to their magnitude

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 12:56:07 2019 No.14014260 >>14012673 someone who transcends mere artistry and cuts to the core of the human condition, all the joy and sorrow and triumph that it encompasses

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:00:00 2019 No.14014276

joyce is totally the beethoven of literature
starts off writing pretty normally, starts inventing new rules, fucking around with systems, ends up in a spiritual realm of his own
rude and profound beyond belief, a rough but incredibly spiritual art that it as mired in flawed humanity as it is highflown spirits

i skimmed this thread about bach being better at counterpoint and he is, bach is literally fucking god. he's shakespeare. he's an anomaly writing an inhuman amount of perfect wonderful things that fit together in every way

but beethoven/joyce are shitty humans hammering their shitty humanity into shape

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:01:29 2019 No.14014285 >>14014276 also this >>14014249 >>14013966 this is not true although missa solemnis is fucking great and underrated, at least as good as the ninth

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:16:23 2019 No.14014347

>>14013853
you fucking brainlet i listen to more bach than beethoven. I know hes a fucking genius you dumbass. And you missed my entire point fucktard, I said it was stupid to compare them at all, because (as you even fucking said) they used different tools, beethoven was a master of the sonata and orchestra as well, bach was the master of the fugue (although beethoven was competant at die kunst der fugue) but I think I can say with absolute certainty that beethoven would have not come even close to a cantata as bach.
>>14013879
i wrote it in a minute chill

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:26:15 2019 No.14014378 >>14014347 >claims most people don't listen to Bach >say that is stupid >a slurr of defences and ad hominems Thank you for proving my point.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:28:05 2019 No.14014383

>>14013589
All contrapuntal music is polyphonic but not all polyphonic music is contrapuntal. What differentiates counterpoint from polyphony is more difficult to define. Usually counterpoint is considered the compositional techniques that were used during the Baroque and late Renaissance, but not earlier in early Renaissance polyphonic music. But it's difficult to say what is and what isn't counterpoint and sometimes the words are used almost interchangeably.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:31:07 2019 No.14014393 Reminder that Schumann was a fully meta artist

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:40:10 2019 No.14014437 Who are The Beatles of literature?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:40:36 2019 No.14014439 >>14012689 bach is shit, the real GOAT is mozart (catholic). also beethoven and shakespeare both have mysterious religious beliefs, meaning no one really knows what religion they were. shakespeare was probably catholic, beethoven may have been.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:42:04 2019 No.14014446

>>14012738
>would probably be better than all of beethoven's compositions combined.
Dumbest thing I've read all day. The Eroica, the Waldstein, the Pastorale, the 7th, the Appassionata, the Hammerklavier, the Archduke trio, the fucking late quartets for Christ sake, you're telling me they're all beaten by Prelude in C major? Lmao. Maybe listen to Beethoven sometimes retard.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:42:53 2019 No.14014451 >>14014439 shouldn't you be browsing dating sites for 'conservative women'?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:43:13 2019 No.14014454 >>14012738 overrated trash. bach is the precursor to all modern music, the father of boomer rock

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:43:28 2019 No.14014457 >>14014393 schumann married his 13 year old student the second she became legal against the wishes of the family, guy was living the dream

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:44:15 2019 No.14014463 Half of the ppl itt only listened to best of [insert composer] on yt and make based retarded posts

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:45:56 2019 No.14014466 >>14013508 I tried listening to Tristan und Isolde, turned it off after the first act because I was bored. Overblown trite.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:48:11 2019 No.14014477 >>14014003 /classical/, like all generals on 4chan, is absolute dogshit.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:49:07 2019 No.14014482

>>14014466
all you need at home for tristan is
prelude
act 2 scene 2 (the fucking glorious love duet, one of the most ravishing extended passages in music)
act 3 prelude
liebstod

i mean unless you're actually attending an opera and getting immersed in the whole thing

actually sitting at home listening to a whole wagner opera with the libretto (or even worse, without it) is just tedious

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:49:53 2019 No.14014484 >>14014451 cope

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:50:48 2019 No.14014487 >>14013966 Yes, it is. The descending violin representing the Holy Spirit at the beginning of the Sanctus is more perfectly divine than anything Bach could have ever dreamed of. Fucking fight me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:52:25 2019 No.14014498 >>14014487 beethoven is certainly better at rhetorical gestures than bach

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:55:11 2019 No.14014519 >>14014285 My comment on the Missa Solemnis was meant as a question, I don't agree with the assessment of the reply I mentioned >>14014446 Lmao the Eroica, sure bud...

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:56:09 2019 No.14014524 >>14013900 >>14013964 Now that i think about it Goethe and haydn are the most compatible pair. Beethoven is only truly matched with Goya and «Nachtwachen»

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:58:21 2019 No.14014536 >>14014519 oh ok never mind i misread i feel you and i are on the same page

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:58:50 2019 No.14014538

>>14014498
Donald Tovey:
>Not even Bach or Handel can show a greater sense of space and of sonority. There is no earlier choral writing that comes so near to recovering some of the lost secrets of the style of Palestrina. There is no choral and no orchestral writing, earlier or later, that shows a more thrilling sense of the individual colour of every chord, every position, and every doubled third or discord.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 13:59:28 2019 No.14014541

>>14014482
>actually sitting at home listening to a whole wagner opera with the libretto (or even worse, without it) is just tedious
This. Wagner's music is written for the action on the stage. I actually like reading along with the libretto though while listening to Wagner. A lot of Wagner singers, maybe due to the high demands vocally, are often pretty bad actors so I like experiencing it like reading a book. But of course nothing beats a good production with good singers.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:00:38 2019 No.14014547 >>14014519 The Eroica is the greatest symphony of all time idiot and you acting snarky on an anime imageboard will never change that

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:01:54 2019 No.14014551 >>14012829 >sometimes it just sounds like they're mashing random keys on the piano/harpsichord This is true.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:10:53 2019 No.14014605 >>14014547 The Eroica is only relevant because it started the Romantic era, nothing more, Schumanns 3rd is way greater than that mediocrity

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:12:51 2019 No.14014617 >the CHRONIC Mozart underrating going on ITT Further proof that Bach is for autists, Beethoven is for teenagers, and Mozart is for well-adjusted individuals.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:14:27 2019 No.14014627 Reminder that ranking artists in some display of performative one-upmanship is low iq. As bad as endless /sp/ threads about who the best tennis player is.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:14:40 2019 No.14014630
File: 35 KB, 968x645, when you wish you would've done it.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>14012829
>mfw bach made music more romantic than all the hillbillies that followed him but is famous for his criminally autistic pieces instead

I'd rather eat shit than listen to the art of f*gue, the well tempered cl*vier, and the g*ldberg variations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou3OJHY9plU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP8Bja2g8CI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaXGW_vO5K8

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:14:55 2019 No.14014633 >>14014627 >le radical centrist Grow up

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:16:11 2019 No.14014644 >>14013368 >transcriptions of Bach's pieces for full symphony orchestra, People should do this more often imo. Not just for Bach either, it helps plens pick out the different voices

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:16:47 2019 No.14014646 >>14014633 >he's a Federerfag

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:17:09 2019 No.14014649

>>14014605
that's patently not true. schumann's orchestration is muddy and his handling of large scale forms amateurish. he shines in lieder and short piano pieces where he can flash innovation and melodic flourishes and dash about being a schizophrenic romantic thinking of things as he writes them. he struggles with sonata form (the best examples of which are in more unorthodox chamber works like his piano quintet/quartet vs the string quartets) and his symphonies are at best 'all right' when handled by a skilled conductor

compared to beethoven's eroica which is a thrillingly designed explosion of the established form that forges a new path and surprises and engages the listener through dramatic and harmonic means and uses the orchestra of the time to do something new and inspired

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:18:18 2019 No.14014655 >>14014383 So counterpoint is the more vague term of the two? >>14014466 What this anon said>>14014482 Though nothing beats the peak of all art which is the actual production if you can follow the words it's fantastic, just you don't have to at home.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:18:26 2019 No.14014656 >>14014617 >implying anyone itt actually listens to any of it instead of jockeying for the imagined intellectual high ground

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:20:41 2019 No.14014670
File: 16 KB, 645x773, facepalm wojak.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I need help anons, I just sent this to a musical frined: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB8RcpkFSRY while being a pseud and thinking I was clever and talking about polyphony and gave this piece as a recommendation in talking about it, did I fuck up? I worded it in a way that I can back out if he states that it isn't polyphony though.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:20:46 2019 No.14014671

>>14014605
Right, because a random shitposter on the internet knows something that the rest of the music community for 200 years has failed to realize. Are you being ironic, or are you actually this dumb? Even ironically calling the Eroica mediocre is ridiculous. I bet you wouldn't even be able to explain why you think that is. In a recent poll of conductors (ie people who are actually in the classical music world) Eroica was ranked as the greatest symphony of all time, and in the list of 20, Beethoven alone had 5 of his symphonies on it. I think they know what they're talking about more than you do.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:21:24 2019 No.14014678

>>14014656
it requires zero actual understanding of classical music to love these musicians. I barely understand what counterpoint is but Bach is one of my favorite musicians ever, after a while you start to just hear something in his music even if you don't understand the intellectual importance of it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:22:26 2019 No.14014686 >>14014671 >s. In a recent poll of conductors (ie people who are actually in the classical music world) Eroica was ranked as the greatest symphony of all time What was the reasoning for it being better than his other famous symphonies?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:22:36 2019 No.14014688 >>14014617 i didn't notice mozart being brought up he's very good, i thought that was a given

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:24:14 2019 No.14014702 >>14014670 >while being a pseud and thinking I was clever and talking about polyphony and gave this piece as a recommendation in talking about it you and everyone else in this thread

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:24:39 2019 No.14014706 [DELETED]

File: 1.91 MB, 1476x1920, Parsifal.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The only music you need, anon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2apMsvrC0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfcEfYN6PjU (don't bother unless you're either a complete Wagnerian or speak German)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz4WAyUw_9I (best if understood in German but not necessary)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjxN2Palto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nhcTllJgIY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB8RcpkFSRY (knowing the libretto shews its true structure however its aesthetic revelation shines through any language and so is advised to read along - is short - but not necessary: http://www.murashev.com/opera/Die_M

eistersinger_von_N%C3%BCrnberg_libretto_English_Act_1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-qoaioG2UA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsCQj0GJ1K8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqk4bcnBqls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQOfIENN2tk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRmCEGHt-Qk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y-xxhBia0s

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:25:43 2019 No.14014708 >>14014702 well can you help? I genuinely just got it mixed up wit the prelude(both pieces I am extremely familiar with).

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:25:52 2019 No.14014710 >>14014671 >In a recent poll of conductors Dude if you ask footballers they'll say Pele was the best or something, it doesn't mean anything.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:28:25 2019 No.14014727 I just want to say that the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th still hasn't been matched in beauty by any other piece of work both before or after him.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:29:30 2019 No.14014730
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>>14014617
>Mozart is for well-adjusted individuals.
i would not word it quite like that. well-adjusted means that you are highly susceptible to formulating your opinions based on the general feelings of the majority, which would lead you more towards bach, since he's the normie favorite. i would say that Mozart is for red-pilled individuals, while VIVALDI is for the highly BASED

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:30:21 2019 No.14014734 >>14014708 i can't help because i'm not a pseud, i know nothing about musical theory.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:32:37 2019 No.14014738 [DELETED]

The only music you need, anon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2apMsvrC0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfcEfYN6PjU (don't bother unless you're either a complete Wagnerian or speak German)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz4WAyUw_9I (best if understood in German but not necessary)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjxN2Palto4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nhcTllJgIY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB8RcpkFSRY (knowing the libretto shews its true structure however its aesthetic revelation shines through any language and so is advised to read along - is short - but not necessary: http://www.murashev.com/opera/Die_M

eistersinger_von_N%C3%BCrnberg_libretto_English_Act_1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-qoaioG2UA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsCQj0GJ1K8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqk4bcnBqls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQOfIENN2tk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRmCEGHt-Qk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y-xxhBia0s

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:37:11 2019 No.14014769

>>14014446
I said 'probably'. Prelude in C is a forgettable piece, that I will agree on. I've listened to the biggest part of Beethoven's oeuvre. I sincerely don't think I would give one Bach piece from >>14013082 , for example, for all of Beethoven's works.
I can't find any substance or depth in his works that would match even half of the prelude in e flat minor, or other such works as I've described ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXnRl6VHzjI )

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:38:52 2019 No.14014776 petzold

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:39:13 2019 No.14014778 >>14014730 >Mozart >Vivaldi Two greats sure (Vivaldi doesn't stand to Mozart tho) but I mean come on, they're the two most normie typical choices possible.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:39:35 2019 No.14014781 >>14014769 c major prelude in e flat minor from the first book

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:40:40 2019 No.14014787
File: 1.91 MB, 1476x1920, Parsifal.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The only music you need, anon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2apMsvrC0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfcEfYN6PjU (don't bother unless you're either a complete Wagnerian or speak German)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz4WAyUw_9I (best if understood in German but not necessary)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjxN2Palto4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nhcTllJgIY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB8RcpkFSRY (knowing the libretto shews its true structure however its aesthetic revelation shines through any language and so is advised to read along - is short - but not necessary: http://www.murashev.com/opera/Die_M

eistersinger_von_N%C3%BCrnberg_libretto_English_Act_1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-qoaioG2UA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsCQj0GJ1K8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqk4bcnBqls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQOfIENN2tk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRmCEGHt-Qk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y-xxhBia0s

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:45:46 2019 No.14014808 >>14014778 bach is way more normie

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:46:56 2019 No.14014815 >>14014670 >Wagner Yes you fucked up

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 14:55:06 2019 No.14014856

>>14014710
It sure means more than your dumbass opinion
>>14014686
Its' expansion of form, treatment and development of themes (even introducing a third theme into sonata form in the development), harmonic, melodic, and especially rhythmic ingenuity - see the fugue in the second movement or the fugal sections in the finale.
Speaking of the finale, https://youtu.be/8vZ1I122JNo

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:00:14 2019 No.14014879 >>14014808 >claiming Bach is more mainstream than "music for your baby Mozart" Yea right. >>14014815 How so?

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:02:35 2019 No.14014893

>>14014769
>Bach on piano
Ask me how I know you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. What, you want fugues? Beethoven matched Bach at his own game. Grosse Fuge, Hammerklavier, sonata 31, all contain fugues equal to any of Bach's. You are obviously more deaf than Beethoven if you don't find substance in his works.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:02:58 2019 No.14014895 >>14014879 normies don't play classical music for their babies, they strap them down in front of a tv. only based and redpilled moms play mozart for their future chad babies.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:08:20 2019 No.14014924

>>14014893
i'm someone else who is a classical musician and
a) bach on a piano is fucking nice
b) all those beethoven fugues are great but partly because of how they subvert the medium. the fugue is a very strict medium and in grosse fugue and the last movement of hammerklavier he smashes it to pieces, for a delicate sophisticated art he purposely and abrasively pursues dissonance rather than cleverly ameliorating it. he's obviously no fucking dunce but comparing his avant-garde approach to the form to bach's ingenious harmony is fucking retarded
op. 110 is a better example but the real strengths are again the more dramatic elements rather than than the formal perfection (which is never the point in beethoven)

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:09:25 2019 No.14014930 >>14014895 Sure, I agree(that's why I'm a chad because my Dad was so even more than me and I had a caring mother), but I mean you have to admit the phase of the normies that was Mozart for your baby.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:10:45 2019 No.14014937

>>14014893
>Beethoven matched Bach at his own game. Grosse Fuge
Most definitely not. It's not true even if you were to compare it to the fugues from the WTC, which don't match the structural maturity of the art of fugue's counterpoints.
>You are obviously more deaf than Beethoven if you don't find substance in his works.
Zero reading comprehension. I said that I find no substance or depth comparable to Bach's, not none at all.
>>Bach on piano
I'm only interested in listening to music, discussions on nonsensical purism is beyond me. Piano dynamics only add another layer of complexity, depth and beauty, no matter what instrument the work was originally intended for.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:12:37 2019 No.14014946 >>14014937 how fucking dead inside do you have to be to deny the beauty of bach played on a piano?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:14:56 2019 No.14014959 >>14014946 >deny the beauty of bach played on a piano? that's what I was saying

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:15:19 2019 No.14014962

>>14014930
i mean, i don't really know what the fuck normies are up to. maybe if you go up to a normie and ask them who the greatest composer was, they'll say mozart, but that doesn't mean they actually listen to mozart, they just know the name and think it sounds cool, which it does. of all the normies who actually do listen to classical music, most will say bach is the goat.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:15:34 2019 No.14014965

>>14014924
HIP autists are tiresome, nothing wrong with Bach on a piano.
I find when I'm learning a Beethoven piece I'm really enthused by it, but once I've cracked it I get bored quite quickly and move on. Never had that with Bach, no matter how many times I play some of his there always seems to be more to it, like I still haven't drained the well

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:15:53 2019 No.14014967 If Beethoven and Mozart are the best composers, I guess Shakespeare and Dante are the best authors.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:21:44 2019 No.14014989 >>14014962 Yea true enough I guess but that's just because they know 'enough' to not want to sound like the garbage feeding normies an inch below and so avoid mozart.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:27:23 2019 No.14015009

>>14014924
>>14014937
>this fucking damage control
Lmao, do you like it when they use pedal too?
>>14014937
>Most definitely not.
Wow, 10/10 argument, you sure convinced me
>I said that I find no substance or depth comparable to Bach's
That's because you're a dumbass.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:30:48 2019 No.14015031 File: 254 KB, 785x1000, 1567806009796.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14015009 >NOOOOO YOU CAN'T USE THE PEDALS!!!!! ITS CHEEEEEAAAATING!!!! the absolute state of bach pseuds

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:44:36 2019 No.14015084

>>14014655
>So counterpoint is the more vague term of the two?
In general I'd say so. If you're unsure whether to call it counterpoint or polyphony, polyphony is never wrong. Although there can be cases where it's borderline between polyphony and homophony too.

>>14014670
Unfortunately I'd say this is mainly homophonic (music with a primary voice [the sopranos in this case] and supporting voices) since the choir is moving in unison with the lower voices mostly making up the harmony. Although it's written in a style reminiscent of a Bach choral with parts of the voices moving independently, which makes it a bit more polyphonic. The most polyphony actually occurs at the end where the orchestra has two melodic lines playing against each other at the same time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:44:37 2019 No.14015085 Petzold > Bach = Mozart > Beethoven

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:46:14 2019 No.14015089 >>14015085 Go to bed Wolfgang. We all know Chopin's Fugue in A Minor is the peak of music anyway

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:47:44 2019 No.14015095 >>14015084 And to add, there are some who like to define polyphony as any music with more than one voice (as opposed to monophony). Which would make homophony a subtype of polyphony.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 15:50:23 2019 No.14015112 >>14015089 HARDLY REPRESENTATIVE

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:08:13 2019 No.14015219 File: 312 KB, 600x600, 225[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Reminder that 'thovenplebs think this is great music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoINrtIWpTA

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:09:11 2019 No.14015224 File: 15 KB, 395x398, 1556761900957.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14012756 Is this post the logical conclusion to the art of minimalist effortposting?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:31:19 2019 No.14015323 >>14012756 Who was the better musician, Messi or Ronaldo?

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:33:13 2019 No.14015332
File: 88 KB, 475x473, lanad8npozgy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>muh incomparable composers are better/worse than some other incomparable composers from an entirely different philosophical and aesthetic time period
Shut the fuck up and take the divinepill.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:34:16 2019 No.14015336 >>14015323 Djokovic may have written more great novels, but he can't write prose as well as Federer. Nadal is a short-storybabby

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:36:09 2019 No.14015351 >>14015332 >posting scriabin sure you understand his underlying 4th based harmonies and can understand the synethestic connections between the fragrant harmonies and can summon an army of insects to black out the sun fuck off

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:36:31 2019 No.14015356 >>14014670 YOU FOOL YOU SHOULD HAVE SENT THE PRELUDE IT'S COUNTERPOINT IS SIMPLY AMAZING

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:38:07 2019 No.14015365 >>14015336 Nadal has some pretty great essays too, he's easily Usain Bolt-tier in that genre.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:42:29 2019 No.14015385 File: 8 KB, 300x408, 1550179757542.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14015351 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 16:43:18 2019 No.14015389 File: 77 KB, 620x913, pessoa.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14015323 Both are pawns in the hands of a greater master.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:00:18 2019 No.14015454 >>14015389 Mourinho is too derivative of Piero della Francesca

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:03:48 2019 No.14015472

>>14012689
>>14012738
I find Bach pleasant, but it's not Beethoven in the slightest. Bach is very Baroque and almost formulaic in a way Beethoven isn't. Beethoven pushed music to its limits, Bach was extremely Conservative. The very structure of Beethoven added to the music; with Bach, everything had the same few characteristics and merits.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:07:01 2019 No.14015492 >>14015472 Bach was enormously creative and original he just managed to do it within the constraints of baroque counterpoint which is honestly in a way even more impressive. Beethoven was dumbfounded by Bach's genius

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:08:37 2019 No.14015500 >>14015492 I'm not saying Bach wasn't genius but simply that the baroque style held him back to the point where he isn't equal to Beethoven. Perhaps he's more impressive but I still don't like him as much.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:09:27 2019 No.14015506 >>14015492 >genius *penis

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:11:21 2019 No.14015521 >>14015500 You can see it as holding him back or you can see him as having created the absolute masterpieces of the genre. Whether you prefer attempting to make new forms or developing to perfection those which exist is I suppose personal.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:18:29 2019 No.14015562 >>14015500 >the baroque style held him back But baroque is superior. If anything, Beethoven was held back by not being a baroque composer

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:21:06 2019 No.14015578 >>14015500 you literally just don't know shit and i'm embarrassed for you

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:39:33 2019 No.14015683

>>14014498
The most profoundly idiotic thing I have ever read on this board of vapid laymen. The rhetorical gestures in the Passions and Cantatas have no rival in their sheer theological understanding of scripture. There is a reason why Bach is called the Fifth Evangelist. Just take a listen to one of his lesser known cantatas, BWV 150, Nach dir Herr verlanget mich, finale movement the aching chaconne. How he chooses to emphasize 'Hilft mr täglich sieghaft streiten' (from 1:43) by boldly imitating the vocal gestures of someone weeping from the depth of their hearts is simply one of the most beautiful passages I know in all my knowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIL_3RZwrbY

While you could pass it off as mere word painting; something every composer worth their salt has done and can do, this depth of word painting is something entirely unique to Bach. And mind you, this isn't even Bach at his finest. It was merely one of the hundreds of cantatas he churned out on a weekly basis, some of them being the size of a symphony and definitely not falling short in terms of depth and complexity and thought.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:40:46 2019 No.14015689 >>14015683 If I were to turn your attention to the mighty and famous chorus from the St. Matthew Passion 'Kommt, ihr Töchter, helft mir klagen', your mind would be stunned by the deafening silence of its inadequacy.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:42:12 2019 No.14015700

>>14015683
The technical, dramatic, theological, and emotional depth and power of "Kommt, ihr Töchter" defy one's ability to envision what human artists can conceive and execute. While the sheer torrent of its tragic flood will deluge even a musically-sensitive child, a knowledgeable accounting will reveal the unprecedented colossus of musical and theological art and architecture by which this power is wrought, confirming the hand of one of the supreme intellects and creators ever begotten by this planet.

The very first note of Bach's Passion according to St. Matthew strikes a tone of forceful, despondent, throbbing gloom, to which in seconds are added bleeding crosscut dissonance and wailing chromaticism. With three choruses and two orchestras, Bach portrays a central idea of Good Friday (in Luther's reading), the dissonant juxtaposition of Jesus' innocence, beneficence, and glory with the ignominy and torture heaped upon Him. The resultant wealth of ideas and dramatic scope, rendered in an unmatched technical vocabulary kindled in the white heat of spiritual inspiration, elevate this cataclysmically tragic opening chorus, Kommt, ihr Töchter, to such an electrifying incandescence of emotional power that belief starts to falter that any human being, even the greatest contrapuntist and liturgical and choral music composer of all time, Sebastian Bach of Leipzig himself, could conceive, execute, and succeed in a vision so grand.

This 12/8 E minor movement begins with the two themes that propel it in double-counterpoint in the second woodwinds and first violin, fugued at the fifth by the first woodwinds. The pulsing bass begins the scalar climb up the hill of Golgotha, and the whole is repeated in B minor. The climatic entry of the chorus with the two initial themes positionally inverted in Soprano and Bass then joined at the fifth by Alto and Tenor doing the same is a candidate for the most dramatic and effective choral entrance in all music.

The two choruses, the rhetorical "Daughter of Zion" and the "Believers", shout antiphonally about the crucified Saviour, the Bridegroom (of the Church), the Lamb (of God) "upon the burden of our sins", whereupon a third chorus of soprano choirboys incants the chorale, "O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig" ("O guiltless Lamb of God") floating in G major above all. The turmoil continues and draws closeward ten minutes later after "Erbarm' dich unser, o Jesu" ("Have mercy on us, o Jesus") in the chorale, at once in E minor and G major with the choruses tossing back and forth with double counterpoint, pedal points/polyharmony, and bleeding chromaticism flying left and right. No mere massive cathedral of matchless formal architecture, Kommt, ihr Töchter blazes with seething drama, and the anger and pains of the Cross at each of its hundred measures. The total effect is, as designed, staggering. Deeper analysis is almost superfluous when you have the score and sound before you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:52:55 2019 No.14015756 >>14015683 >>14015700 bached and baroquepilled

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:54:37 2019 No.14015775 >>14015683 you don't realise you're agreeing with the person you're quoting lol

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 17:57:09 2019 No.14015797

>>14015500
Writing in some style has nothing to do with greatness. Bach wrote perhaps the most moving music ever written, vocal music, endless concertos for a variety of instruments, solo keyboard works, and an astounding quantity of it too. What you are implying is that art should be judged not on its own aesthetic merits but instead on some historical trivialities. In addition, you are being unfair to Bach, who despite writing in forms considered old-fashioned in his own time, like the fugue, was one of the great innovators in music.

"Listen, if you can, to the forty-eight fugue themes of Bach's Well Tempered Clavichord. Listen to each theme, on right after another. You will soon realize that each theme mirrors a different world of feeling. You will soon realize that the more beautiful a theme seems to you the harder it is to find any word that will describe it to your complete satisfaction. Yes, you certainly know whether it is a gay theme or a sad one. You will be able, in other words, in your own mind to draw a frame of emotional feeling around your theme. Now study the sad one a little closer. Try to pin down the exact quality of its sadness. Is it pessimistically sad or resignedly sad; is it fatefully sad or smilingly sad?"

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 18:00:48 2019 No.14015824 >>14015775 I don't think you realise that I just spent 2(3) post challenging the post and that the first two replies to post 14014498 are me continuing my post due to the word limit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 18:16:23 2019 No.14015901 >>14015797 I personally dislike orchestral. Give me Souza any day.

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 18:49:52 2019 No.14016099

Imagine a world where Martin Luther didn't ruin everything and enforce his simplistic music, thus causing a counter reform in the Catholic Church's own music.....
Or who knows, maybe the limitations actually helped focus and develop later styles
Also, Dufay has never been topped
https://youtu.be/6mcxEtyEUw4

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 20:10:47 2019 No.14016477 >>14015901 what do you mean by this? who is Souza?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 20:19:57 2019 No.14016504 >>14016477 you don't wanna know Just be happy your'e not American

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 20:26:01 2019 No.14016522 >>14015472 >>14015500 I recently discussed Bach with a friend who studies musical composition at the Conservatory, he told me Bach tried things that nobody really tried before or after. To describe him as conservative is utterly wrong.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 20:48:47 2019 No.14016646 >>14014630 >mfw bach made music more romantic than all the hillbillies that followed him but is famous for his criminally autistic pieces instead I made this point above. But god you could have chose shit that isn't synthesized crap.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 20:52:00 2019 No.14016665 >>14014446 >the Pastorale literally his worst symphony though

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 20:54:58 2019 No.14016686 >>14014018 t. retard

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 20:57:11 2019 No.14016700 >>14016665 no BEETHOVEN SYMPHONY TIRE LIST 8 > 3 > 4 > 7 > 9 > 6 > 5 > 2 > 1

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 21:00:17 2019 No.14016718 >>14014378 i have no idea what your talking about i got lost in that post

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 21:04:14 2019 No.14016740
File: 222 KB, 600x345, 1571371164370.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>14012829
>Even the piece you just posted, what am I listening for?
The amazing counterpoint for starters.
>I don't feel
Because you're an ape that is incapable of aesthetic contemplation, no offense.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 21:28:35 2019 No.14016874 File: 401 KB, 336x256, 1552701354879.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Bach's wife dies >composes a violin sonata >it's written for solo violin >writes "you are alone" at the top of the manuscript fuck bros

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 21:37:39 2019 No.14016906 >>14016874 which one is it?

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 21:39:53 2019 No.14016913 >>14016906 it's on the title page of the six sonatas and partitas

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 22:00:10 2019 No.14017001 >>14015700 Did you do the analysis? https://musescore.com/bsg/scores/812951/piano-tutorial

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 22:07:55 2019 No.14017031 >>14013506 It's actually Gustav Meyrink for his early works and Kafka for his later

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 22:35:16 2019 No.14017176 >>14012904 This is correct

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 22:41:43 2019 No.14017213 >>14013630 >most people don't listen to bach Have you heard toccata and fugue in d minor bwv 565

Anonymous Fri Oct 18 22:49:56 2019 No.14017251

>>14012756
It’s not Goethe. I’m too lazy to find an excerpt of how it went but basically Goethe and Beethoven had mutual respect for each other yet when they met, possibly by chance I don’t remember, Goethe bowed to Beethoven while Beethoven stormed past Goethe. Beethoven was like 20 years younger than Goethe and represented a new breed of intellectualism. To Beethoven, Goethe represented a dusty old way of things.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 22:51:42 2019 No.14017258 >>14014930 The other poster is probably too young to remember.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 22:55:38 2019 No.14017281 File: 208 KB, 1175x1544, F9CFF231-F12F-4731-A5E9-84909F802D66.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KnjnwVS53ko I’ve been wondering who the Mahler of literature is

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 23:05:13 2019 No.14017335 >>14017281 Someone who's books are way to long

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 23:19:47 2019 No.14017406 >>14017335 Don’t bully Mahler :(

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 23:24:23 2019 No.14017425 >>14012689 Absolutely Patrician. No one in the history of music has had shit on Bach. Same for my fellow african american, Dante.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 23:25:40 2019 No.14017432 >>14012829 The vast majority of his work is great. His masses are beautiful. I strongly suggest Suzuki's recordings; they are careful, beautiful, and the quality is great.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 23:25:53 2019 No.14017434 >>14013621 Typical American poster. Bach fucked more (a lot more) than Beethoven. Dante fucked as much as Shakespeare, and probably more. He seems to have cheated on his wife too. And also left three children.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 23:28:00 2019 No.14017447 >>14013630 >Bach kinda invented music This is the level of /lit/ in 2019. Machaut, Josquin, Palestrina, Gesualdo and Monteverdi came before Bach and were nearly as good as him.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 23:31:16 2019 No.14017466 >>14014276 >he's an anomaly writing an inhuman amount of perfect wonderful things that fit together in every way That's Dante, not Shakespeare ("the poor man's Racine").

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 18 23:38:07 2019 No.14017494 >>14017281 Mann.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 00:00:59 2019 No.14017603 File: 54 KB, 504x644, CordierColor.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I bet you peasants know nothing of the most complicated music ever composed. The music of the Ars Subtilior

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 00:04:18 2019 No.14017620 >>14017447 >>>/mu/

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 00:05:54 2019 No.14017626 >>14013630 >this entire post just absolutely wewing my wews here

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 00:09:31 2019 No.14017632 Cervantes, Dante, Shakespeare, and Goethe are pitted in a four way literati deathmatch. Who wins?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 00:20:47 2019 No.14017671 >>14017632 Dante. He was a soldier. So was Cervantes, but he was maimed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 00:31:29 2019 No.14017713 >>14017603 Ferneyhough is more complex

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 02:13:44 2019 No.14018088 >>14015356 I know, I somewhat saved it by doing that and making it difficult to tell if I was talking about the prelude or first piece. The first piece also has some counterpoint anyway at the end so it was fine.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 02:45:40 2019 No.14018141 >>14017671 There's a very slight chance of Goethe engineering a weapon on the flight using whatever materials lie about in the ring but otherwise you're right.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 02:47:27 2019 No.14018145 >>14017671 >He was a soldier An Italian soldier though.

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 02:52:44 2019 No.14018154

>>14018145
It's funny because in the time of Goethe Germans were rumored to be impractical, dream-consumed and rather unmasculine people. A common saying when Shakespeare got big in Germany was "Germany is Hamlet", and it also applied to the German themselves.

The Italians were still viewed as chads in comparison.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 02:56:22 2019 No.14018166 >>14017603 >Ars Subtilior Just started listening to it, sounds very nice but how is it so complex as you imagine? Wagner contrapuntal seems ever more so.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 02:57:43 2019 No.14018168 >>14018154 Always amusing how those stereotypes change. For centuries Muslims were seen as impossibly decadent sophisticates and sexual libertines, now it seems they are primitive and violent puritans

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:00:34 2019 No.14018174

>>14018168
Meanwhile the Roman saw Africans as agreeable and businesslike and the German as savages, and the French used to be feared for their ferocity in battle. It seems that when it comes to "national character" the historicists are right, it really changes from an era to another.

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:04:29 2019 No.14018182

>>14018168
Nietzsche put it in a rather fun and mean-spirited way in Genealogy of Morals. He says (as everyone does) that when Napoléon met Goethe, he exclaimed "Here is a man!". Then he adds, in typical Nietzschean fashion, "He expected to see a German", the implication being that German weren't seen as proper at the time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:05:32 2019 No.14018183 >>14018182 *as proper men

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:14:07 2019 No.14018206

>>14018174
>>14018182
Yes but you see there always remains an essentiality between the eras. Surely you cannot deny the dreamy relation of old Germany to modern? Or the "business like Africans" what was thought of them later? - simplistic to put it plainly.

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:19:16 2019 No.14018209

>>14018206
>Surely you cannot deny the dreamy relation of old Germany to modern?
It is hard to say how much of that has remained, but more to the point: how can you be sure it's not the next thing to go in 50 or 100 years? And how far does it go back? Ultimately you end up basking in the contingency of history all over again.

>Or the "business like Africans" what was thought of them later?
I think here the relationship has changed most dramatically. There's probably a line of continuuity between Meister Eckhart and modern introspective Germany, but what's te relationship between the urbane Ethiopian the Roman knew and the colonized North African m19th century racist treated as children or cattle? In that case it's clear the stereotype was only grounded on the nature of their relationship with the West. Which makes sense, but makes the idea of national character all the more dubious.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:23:47 2019 No.14018217 >>14018209 relation must be based on some quality of both individuals. It's obvious to any man what "business like" means in the African, or what "dreamy" means in the German. Anon surely you don't neglect racial difference?

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:28:41 2019 No.14018225
File: 334 KB, 2000x2000, 15792-large-italian-orientalist-harem-painting-by-mantegazza-2-2000x.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>14018217
I think you are projecting your own ideology onto this. Businesslike means businesslike, if they'd meant something else they would have said something else. In any case trying to apply a stereotype across a group of millions of people is always going to be a failure. They tell us more about the person doing the stereotyping than the group being stereotyped.
Eg, Europeans projected their own sexual insecurities onto the Islamic world, these ideas weren't based on anything factual

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:38:14 2019 No.14018237 >>14018217 >Anon surely you don't neglect racial difference? Given that we're talking at the same time about nationalities, races and continents I'm not sure racial differences would clear the picture that much.

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:42:13 2019 No.14018246

>>14018225
Anon I don't know how to tell you this but you're a moron. If you can't see some connection between all of this you're no higher in intelligence than the niggers being described.

>Europeans projected their own sexual insecurities onto the Islamic world
Never heard of a Haram? But still this I agree with, except you must understand these beliefs don't simply originate out of thin air.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:43:15 2019 No.14018249 >>14018237 You think there isn't a genetic difference of character between the French and German(modern wise)?

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:49:04 2019 No.14018262

>>14018249
Given that both the German and French are a mix of Germanic tribes, Celts natives and Roman invaders I doubt the genetic difference is that great, though I suppose it exists.There is a clear cultural difference but it is, precisely, cultural. Germans are not at all what they were before 1940, and at the time they weren't as the Germans of the 1700s. Yet genetically very little has changed for them in the past 300 years.

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:52:32 2019 No.14018274

>>14018262
You go to Frankfurt or Strasbourg and there is barely a cultural difference. Have I wandered into the 19th century where we are all supposing that the artificial nation states we have just invented have some deep underlying soul in the hearts of the people?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:54:49 2019 No.14018277 >>14013899 Which subreddit is the /lit/ of reddit?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:55:20 2019 No.14018280 >>14018262 >>14018274 >artificial Anon please, explain what's artificial about it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 03:57:49 2019 No.14018287 >>14018280 Just do some reading anon. Learning about the treaty of Westphalia would be a start, then gen up on Alsace-Lorraine, Schleswig-Holstein etc, or maybe just examine how the borders of Germany have changed over the last hundred years

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 04:01:35 2019 No.14018294 >>14018277 r/entp

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 04:05:46 2019 No.14018302

>>14018287
Anon I shouldn't have to explain these basic things to you like spirit goes beyond borders, especially such insignificant changes as you have stated.

Identity being an artificiality of the individual is a modern lie, it is the individual who is if anything the artificial disturbance of his own identity.

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 05:00:31 2019 No.14018414

>>14016646

The virgin human interpreter:

>is afraid of the bass
>doesn't even know what rhythm is
>doesn't even know why he is using rubato
>intentionally hides the inner voices because he can't play them right
>gets too spastic during the trills and gobbles notes
>intentionally plays the cadences quieter because he think it sounds sophisticated but he just sounds like a queer
>has to record with material hands on material instruments in a material room whereby the pitches get sullied

THE CHAD MIDI:

>THE BASS OVERPOWERS ALL OTHER REGISTERS WITH CEASELESS CLIMACTIC THROBBING
>RHYTHM IS MAINTAINED WITH MILITARY PRECISION
>RUBATO PERFECTLY CAMOUFLAGED WITH INCREMENTAL CHANGES
>FIRES ALL THE NOTES INDISCRIMINATELY
>TRILLS SOUND LIKE MACHINE GUNS
>THE TONIC WILL DAMAGE YOU HEARING IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFUL
>HARMONIES SOUND LIKE STEEL ON STEEL

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 05:22:42 2019 No.14018447 >>14018145 Firenze was a major power back then, and Italians were very experienced in war, since they spent all the time fighting each other.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 05:37:21 2019 No.14018473 >>14012689 Except Beethoven is shit.

Anonymous Sat Oct 19 06:17:59 2019 No.14018568

>>14018274
I just argued there isn't a genetic difference of character, why do you accuse of being the one operating with 19th century memes? Throw that accusation at those I was responding too.
And yes, there is less cultural difference in the parts of the countries that touch each other, so what? There is also a difference between Paris and Rennes. It's still the same language and institutions (among others things) in the whole country. Try telling an Alsacian WWII veteran he's essentially just a German and see how he responds.

>Have I wandered into the 19th century where we are all supposing that the artificial nation states we have just invented
The political formation of the French state has been going on forat least 5 centuries, and very deliberately at that. The case for Germany is certainly better. But in any respect I wasn't arguing that nations are monolithic entities. Just that on the whole, broadly speaking, the differences between France and Germany are mostly cultural, to the extent that those differences exist, and they certainly do.

>some deep underlying soul in the hearts of the people?
When people have been killing each other in massive numbers because of how much they think they are different you can say there's some underlying issue yes. And keep in mind I'm the one who first argued against the idea of national character itt. But it's ridiculous to pretend the difference between France and Germany is some completely arbitrary thing cooked up les than a century ago. The French national sentiment first appeared in the Hundred Year War.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 06:19:05 2019 No.14018570 >>14018414 based midi chad

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 06:47:50 2019 No.14018626 >>14015689 >its inadequacy. The inadequacy of the chorus?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 09:18:19 2019 No.14019041 >>14014466 Tristan is top tier, fuck off fag.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 09:40:25 2019 No.14019135 File: 443 KB, 400x296, 1523049323269.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>14018166 >only listening

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 19 09:53:37 2019 No.14019194 >>14013630 >fuge Fuggge :DD

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/lit/ - Literature