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1407949 No.1407949 [Reply] [Original]

humans are innately evil
agree / disagree?
why.

>> No.1407956

>>1407949
Yes. Everyone has the capacity to be a "saint" or a gas chamber attendant, provided the right circumstances were in place.

>> No.1407955

Shit question. I refuse to answer shit questions that are beneath me.

</Deep&Edgy>

But seriously...

>> No.1407958
File: 165 KB, 900x800, 1273078232271.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1407958

homework before school!?

>> No.1407963

guys i was out banging nerdpussy last night, got h/w for english first ting. ill make a coupla threads on the frontpage help me out OK?

>> No.1407964

Yes, because humans are born with sin. Hope y'all motherfuckers got baptised.

>> No.1407995

humans are inherently something

>> No.1407999

If people were innately good, we would be caring and give away all our possessions and then starve to death. If people were innately evil, we would want the best for ourselves, be greedy, and survive to pass on our genes.

this greed spurs people on so that the only reason we act good is so we receive fame and glory. ultimately there is a motive in everything we do.

ex: how do you know gandhi?
because he was a good man and fought for people's rights.

the fact that gandhi's name was passed on was because he did good. he bolstered an image for himself by fasting and in the end gets a wikipedia article with his picture on it. you wish you had a wikipedia article.

all you guys are fencesitters
can you prove me wrong?

>> No.1408016

sage for binary fallacies

>> No.1408021

Lord of the Flies....such an epic book

>> No.1408025

>>1407999
gandhi beat his wife and kids.
Suffer under his yolk in that manner and tell me how good he is,.

>> No.1408029

alright, give me another option.

i will shoot you all down. you and your false god[s].

>> No.1408033

Good and Evil don't exist, at least not in this context. Good and Evil implies choice. What we are when we are born is not our choice. Deducing nature to the concepts of Good and Evil really makes no sense. Is a hurricane "evil"?

>> No.1408035

>>1408025
never said he was good
if he beat his wife and kids into submission, he probably gained from it.
"wife, make me a sandwich" - gandhi

>> No.1408041

>>1408033
hurricanes aren't evil. they don't need to breed.

>> No.1408051

>>1408041
Exactly. Nature can't be truly deduced to Good and Evil. That is, there is no natural law which dictates Good and Evil. They're purely human concepts, as such they can be interpreted differently by all humans. Arguing that man in inherently one or the other is purely subjective.

>> No.1408070

>>1408051
there is nothing that states what is the line between good and evil, because there is no good. there is just evil. all motives are evil.

>> No.1408087

Humans are innately ignorant, good and evil are irrelevant/nonexistant.

>> No.1408090

Good and evil is a two-dimensional concept, a line that extends infinitely, where extending in one direction is good and the other is evil.

So yes, humans are innately evil, but innately good equally so.

>> No.1408092

>>1408087
prove it

>> No.1408096

all you guys need to get rational here, there is no good and evil, we are all made of chemical reactions, and atoms. When you kill something, you're manipulating carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and other elements essential to life. The chemical bonds are broken and then dispersed into the local environment. There is no good and evil, they are just inventions made by man that don't mean anything.

tl:dr morals are a human invention that are don't stand for anything quantative, therefore there are no moral truths and therefore no good/evil

>> No.1408097

>>1408092
Prove what, exactly?

>> No.1408100

>>1408087

>Humans are innately ignorant

god I hate this aphoristic try-hard bullshit seriously kill yourself

>> No.1408113

disagree

there is far too much beauty in the world that humanity has had a hand in for us to be inherently evil. One cannot create light from nothing. Deep down, every human being is good, if they are raised with love.
And even scientificially, Man is a social creature, kindness and goodness towards others assures our survival.

atheistfag, btw.

>> No.1408116

Really, im sorry i didnt realize i was in the presence of a supreme being, born with all knowlege. >>1408100

>> No.1408119

Are animals they innately evil or good?

>>1408087
Are animals innately ignorant?

I have a theory that can only be true based on several related assumptions.

>> No.1408117

>>1408096
this intangible idea is not a line, but a point. there is no good, there is only evil. or call it good for all it matters.

>>1408090
then tell me what the meaning to life is.
is it not but a fight to survive?

>> No.1408122

>>1408116
Knowledge

>> No.1408123

>>1408122

also, nonexistent, you fucking tard

>> No.1408125

>>1408122
seriousness aside, i lol'd

>> No.1408128

>>1408113
beauty is fame.
fame stems from greed
proves my point.
does a rose not prick?

>> No.1408130
File: 148 KB, 296x450, Life_of_Pi_cover.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1408130

people as a whole form society
going back to what I said, people are greedy. therefore society is greedy

society tells you to make lemonade when life throws you lemons.
thats equivalent to telling you to deal with it when you clearly have been wronged.
society as a whole weighs you down so society can tower over you.

another group of people/ society is religion
how do you know gandhi?
because he did good things and suffered

how do you know jesus christ?
because he did good things and suffered for your sins

how do you know god?
he made everything
therefore you owe everything to god
therefore you owe everything to the church
church earns money and fame.
which is why the churches of back then were so powerful.

god did it for the fame

< read life of pi fully, and it will tell you the meaning behind organized religion.

>> No.1408132

A mind starts as a blank slate, or perfect ignorance. Life, is a struggle against that ignorance.

>> No.1408137

>>1408132
pretty sure you get hungry.
im sure by then you're want to have a nice bite of that donut on the table.
BUT ITS NOT YOUR'S
you steal it? EVIL?

>> No.1408141

the simplest way to explain everything is to say that there is nothing. dismiss it all, we are just atoms. but what if there is something?

>> No.1408148

>>1408137
What is your point here.

>> No.1408153

>>1408117
>this intangible idea is not a line, but a point. there is no good, there is only evil. or call it good for all it matters.

That would imply that each and every human expresses only one unchanging quality, which can not be true simply because the concepts of good and evil exist, are perceivable, observable, and differentiated, whether or not it is based on a social construct.

Good and evil can only be perceived relative to where the observer lies on that line. The single definition of good or evil is relative to that position. What we call a social construct is the frame of reference that is held commonly by societies.

Contradicting definitions of good or evil are but two different positions on that line.

>> No.1408152

>>1408148
not ignorant of the donut there.

>> No.1408162

>>1408153
give me something done by someone that expresses pure goodness, and cannot be, in any way, identifiable as evil
not a stubborn mule, just one that has felt too much to change.

tell me what you believe in.

>> No.1408163

>>1408152
You have taken what i said to a literal extreme, people are not black and white but infinately complex. Maybe you do some thing "bad" does that then make you an evil person? My point was to say that when people do "bad" things that it is bred from ignorance of some form.

>> No.1408164

>innately evil
>innately
hurr

>> No.1408171

>>1408164
innately evil at every situation, not just when one is born.

>> No.1408181

>>1408162
>give me something done by someone that expresses pure goodness, and cannot be, in any way, identifiable as evil

Pure goodness cannot exist on a line, since that would mean reaching infinite goodness.
Two points determine a line, therefore no single point can be defined as good or evil without an observing point/position. Since there always exists a counter-position to the observer, all points can be defined as both good an evil.

Any example of good I give can indeed be identified as evil, since, there always exists a perspective that is the counter-position to the initial observer.

>> No.1408184

Evil explained:
Humans only care about themself. You only care about yourself. Even if you tell yourself otherwise, you're lying. It means that everything that cares about us seems good to us, everything else - bad.
Now some statistics:
People who care about you: 1 (you)
People who dont care about you: ~6.5 billion (rest of population)
Thats why good-to-evil proportion in this world is around 1:6500000000ÑŽ
Ofc people are fuckin evil

>> No.1408186

>>1408163
black or white, people are people. good or evil, all are evil.

also, yes, because they don't do anything "good"'

perhaps the lack of knowledge does not apply to evilness. you can be true in your own right, and it cannot affect my claim.

then again, ignorance is not mentioned anywhere in the list of sins. but could the 7 deadly sins be good?

is lust not good for making one release endorphins?

is gluttony not good for surviving a harvestless winter?

greed for stockpiling of equipment for survival?

is sloth not good for the enjoyment of beauty in nature?

is wrath not good for power?

is envy not good for making up for what one does not have?

is pride not good for fame?

i suppose with a lack of knowledge one would not survive and carry on their genes.

>> No.1408194

Humans are innately self-serving. Good and Evil are societal constructs that arise in groups in order to foster improved chances of survival.

>> No.1408195

>>1408184
your parents might care about you, but that is for in case they reach financial hardships, and have to depend on you.

>> No.1408201

>>1408194
self-serving is evil. evil is self-serving
i agree. its about the survival

>> No.1408209

>>1408184
>Humans only care about themselves.

I hold the occasional door once in awhile, your assumption is invalid

>> No.1408216

>>1408209
do you hold the door so that other people would say thank you?
to offer your gratitude?
to increase your fame?

>> No.1408214

>>1408201
>self-serving is evil. evil is self-serving
That's debatable. If, for example, to survive, one must kill an animal for food, that is self-serving, but few would say it's evil.

One can serve one's self in ways that are "Good" or "Evil", applying the modern, Western cultural meanings to "Good" and "Evil".

>> No.1408221

>>1408194
>Humans are innately self-serving. Good and Evil are societal constructs that arise in groups in order to foster improved chances of survival.

You mean, humans are inherently self-serving because all societal constructs are self-serving.

But do all humans adhere wholly to societal constructs?

>> No.1408219

>>1408209
Why do you hold that door? Does it please you to not let doors slam on people? Do you crave the recognition of your effort? Do you just like holding doors because they're heavy and feel good in your hand? No matter what your motivation, there is a motivation to the self that comes from holding a door open for someone, right?

>> No.1408223

>>1408186
Ooh, "sins" okay whatever dude. I now realize who i was arguing with.

>> No.1408225

>>1408209
You hold it because it makes you feel good, or you're hoping for a praise, or want to hook up with a girl - you're still doing it for yourself.
Imagine you would get electrified with non-deadly charge every time you hold a door for someone: would you still do it?

>> No.1408231

>>1408214
the few is many.

ex: the food used to self-serve could easily be used to feed others. by not doing "good", one is doing evil. applies to ethos pathos logos

no betweens there because there is no doing good.

>> No.1408239

>>1408219
>>1408216

I expected such replies.
I do indeed hold a door for a stranger out of pure self-less intent. However, I admit that it is only when I am under the right conditions.

Does that make me evil? Inherently, does that make my action evil, despite it being truly out of selflessness even for just that moment?

>> No.1408243

>>1408209
Shhh you're falling into a tarp!

>> No.1408251

are we seriously arguing about this? haven't you all read nietzsche?

>> No.1408252
File: 26 KB, 400x300, crying baby.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1408252

>mfw medieval syllogism in 2011

>> No.1408255

>>1408239
to survive when others do not survive is evil.
the fact that you state your holding doors for other people out of your own pureness is making you feed good. fame?

>> No.1408256

>>1408231
Let's use that killing an animal to survive example, then.

One person, stranded, in the wilderness, kills an animal for food so that they may survive until rescue/return to civilization. How is this action evil?

>> No.1408263

>>1408256
one exhibits wrath when one kills.

>> No.1408267

>>1408256
does the animal not feel pain? does it not also exist to survive?

>> No.1408268

>>1408255
>to survive when others do not survive is evil.
Is that value not just another societal construct?

>the fact that you state your holding doors for other people out of your own pureness is making you feed good. fame?
Not necessarily, I simply stated my claim because I thought it would provide discussion. It was evil in intent, a troll post, nor was it in prospect of enjoyment.
I simply held the door for this discussion.

Also, fame is irrelevant, do you see me wearing a triptag?

>> No.1408275

>>1408263
I would claim that killing for survival is not an act of wrath, but an act of necessity. Emotion does not/need not enter into it.

>>1408267
Perhaps it does. Perhaps it does not. However, the animal would do the same to a human if it needed to survive and the human was a source of food.

>> No.1408277

>>1408268
>It was evil in intent

It was not* evil in intent, is what I meant to say.

>can you freudian slip over the internet?

>> No.1408281

>>1408277
yes you can, and if you slip it means you thought i was right in the first place.

>> No.1408287

>>1408275
>Perhaps it does. Perhaps it does not. However, the animal would do the same to a human if it needed to survive and the human was a source of food.

So what if the animal and human survived by cooperating out of compassion for the other?

>> No.1408288

>>1408275
i never said the animal was pure or good either.

>> No.1408290

>>1408287
>So what if the animal and human survived by cooperating out of compassion for the other?

A very strange and rare animal it would be.

>> No.1408293

>>1408287
then they would both starve to death.
out the gene pool they go

>> No.1408296

>>1408281
Haha, I feared such mis-communication.

>it means you thought i was right in the first place.

I guess can only assure you that I typo'd from my current lack of sleep.

I understand your position, however I haven't concluded anything. I don't know which of us is right.

>> No.1408302

>>1408288
Can an animal be good or evil?

>>1408290
>>1408293
I said they survived.
Indeed a rare occurrence, but could it lead to the evolution of compassionate animals?

>> No.1408305

Humans aren't innately anything. What is evil supposed to be in the first place? That's subjective. Now you may be sitting on your ass like "WELL WHERE DO WE GET OUR MORALS FROM THEN? WAS HITLER WRONG IF IT'S SUBJECTIVE?" If the murder rate in a society surpasses the rate of birth, then that society dies out. It isn't necessarily that societies have developed "morals" so much as it is that they are simply intrinsic to a stable society. This translates into non lethal behaviors such as lying and stealing as well but in less direct ways.

>> No.1408316

>>1408302
no good, only evil. the word good does not exist.

also you can't prove a symbiotic compassionate animal human survival story based on hunger has ever worked out because you can't tell me of one.

>> No.1408325

>>1408316

I feed my dog everyday, though.

>> No.1408326

>>1408305
hitler was a cool guy, he fought for what he believed in.

>> No.1408330

>>1408325
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
my whole argument is dismissed you win anon

>> No.1408331

>>1408326
With Hitler's genes and Hitler's environment, any human would do as Hitler did.

>> No.1408336

>>1408331
well yeah they would have a want for power

>> No.1408337

>>1408331
So Hitler would do as Hitler did?
Circular logic is circular.

>> No.1408341

You need humans to define evil. Hence your statement uses circular logic.

>> No.1408342

>>1408325
HOLDUP
what do you feed your dog with?
couldn't that food be used to feed other dogs?
wouldnt the dog be parasitic?

>> No.1408344

>>1408341
Are all things that exist observable?
Are only humans able to observe and define?
Has a cat ever formed a concept?

>> No.1408350

>>1408342
He saved me while I was drowning before he became my pet.
Since then I always feed him a portion out all my meals.

>> No.1408357

>>1408350
i knew this was going to tie in with dogs and water.
"hes going to say that his dog pulled him out of ice or something"

curse your corner rationals. now i forgot what i was arguing about. TIME FOR SLEEP, REVIVE THREAD WHEN I WAKE!

>> No.1408358

>>1408341
this basically

>> No.1408359

It sure is junior high in here.

>> No.1408383

>>1408359
u no helping

>> No.1408398

Evil simply exists because created society confronts basic natural instincts. Therefore society in unnatural, therefore society is the only true evil.

>> No.1408454

>>1408344
- We don't know, but anything that isn't observable is irrelevant and might as well not exist.

- We don't know.

- Did you ever enter a cat's conciousness?

>> No.1408457

>>1408454
>>1408454
>consciousness

>> No.1408523

>implying good equals perfection

>> No.1408527

what is evil?

>> No.1409138

Humans are inately humans, imo.