esoteric science

[Anonymous No.14939884]

How does one go about studying esotericism from an empirical, scientific standpoint? Not taking any one system or doctrine for granted, but actually exploring the esoteric in a rigorous, phenomenological manner?

Many occultists just seem like dabblers who want psychic powers. Most mystics and traditionalists are dogmatic. The closest I've found to a genuinely empirical approach to these topics is in Anthroposophy (which is where I found the term esoteric science). But there are hints of it in other authors as well. Does anyone have any recommendations? Or general thoughts on this subject?

[Anonymous No.14939903]

I'm not really familiar with anything like this but I find the idea quite interesting.
I'd love to see a group of people who utilize or recreate historical examples of ritual or attempt to recreate the psychological effects of said ritual, and then document and analyze the results.
Closest thing I can think of is obviously Jung, or Jungian analysis of esoterica generally.

[Anonymous No.14939918]

>>14939884
To be honest anthroposophy seems just as dogmatic as the others. It uses Goethe's name to call all kinds of dogmatic things "science". I second the above anon (>>14939903) that Jung is the only person that has studied the esoteric empirically.

[Anonymous No.14940002]

the analog would be people who actually practice while having a historical grasp of at least that tradition, or even of others and their interaction. neither jung nor anthroposophy receive very good marks on this score.

[Anonymous No.14940448]

>>14939884
Hanegraaf maybe

[Anonymous No.14940468]

>>14939884
Empirically, it's all bullshit. Did you not know that?

[Anonymous No.14940471]

>>14939903
>>14939918
where does jung do things like this? my experience with jungians is pretty bad, they are more likely to impose dogmatic frameworks of interpretation than explore anything

[Anonymous No.14940629]

>>14940471
Are you at all familiar with Jung??

[Anonymous No.14940811]

bump

[Anonymous No.14940906]

>>14940629
He quite clearly does not

[Anonymous No.14940921]

>>14940629
>>14940906
i am intimately familiar with jung's work, that's why i asked where to start with jung

[Anonymous No.14940931]

>>14940906
Is not...
But Jung seems to me to state very clearly that mimicry of initiation rites and such is a bad idea and not recommended, at least in cases of different psychological backgrounds, although the alternative to this is that modern psychoanalysis provides an effective replacement. (From his commentary on the Bardo Thödol.)
Also, while his framework is somewhat restrictive in that it is fairly esoteric itself, I think it is essentially impossible to analyse these things empirically outside of a psychological framework, and Jung did the best analyses of many mystic and occult texts to my knowledge.

[Anonymous No.14941019]

>>14939884
Do you not know who Jung is?

[Anonymous No.14941057]

>>14941019
Muh synchronicity
Jung is sometimes really a joke scientifically

[Anonymous No.14941061]

>>14941057
Acausality is cooler desu.

[Anonymous No.14941222]

>>14941057
You haven't read Jung.

Synchronicity in what it is, cannot be denied. Jung made no absolutes in cause.

[Anonymous No.14941224]

>>14941222
I did, and he clearly relate the death of people with clock stoppings as something magical

[Anonymous No.14941320]

>>14941224
Jung's ideas on synchronicity were expressions of his own religious function beyond conscious sanction of an unconscious whim, and like many of his later works completely esoteric. Read my above post on psychoanalysis replacing initiation rites - Jung was obviously unscientific in that he was beyond science. By the end he too had begun to write in symbols, and those taken in by the veneer of empiricism and logical statement are truly fools.

[Anonymous No.14941352]

>>14939884
>occultists just seem like dabblers who want psychic powers
That's literally the point of any genuine occult tradition. Everything else is a just LARP.

[Anonymous No.14941372]

>>14941352
Nope, that part is the larp along with the satanism and new age hippy crap. There is legit stuff in occultism though, not telling you, brainlet, what it is though as you might misuse it.

[Anonymous No.14941429]

>>14939884
Check out new thinking allowed on YouTube. Plenty of guys doing threat.

[Anonymous No.14941562]

Psychonautics is an interesting entering point. But you really REALLY want to avoid experiencing it first-hand. It premanently changes your brain and not in a way of some 'secret knowledge' gain. More ofthen than not it just makes you want to kill yourself. I've been close to a certain group who ate shrooms, and at least one of its members offed himself. It seems to happen fairly often. I mean, just look at JBP.

[Anonymous No.14941988]

>>14941372
You don't know what you're talking about you retard. The earliest records of magic and occult systems like ancient Tantric and proto-Daoist shamanist traditions all have as their primary aim actual tangible influence over 'physical' reality. The 'dude occultism is knowledge lmao' angle is 20th century Theosophist nonsense, it's basically philosophy for LARPers.

[Anonymous No.14942002]

Start with folk tales.

[Anonymous No.14942043]

>>14941562
>DUUUDE DONT TAKE SHROOMS YOULL KILL URSELF
Okay boomer. Anyone who kills themself from taking a reasonable amount of shrooms is retarded

[mystikos No.14942061]

Yes, Jung is great. In fact, I am reading the Red Book now. But...

Read Wouter Hanegraaf!!!

The man singlehandedly invented Western Esotericism as an academic study...

Admittedly, he may rile some feathers on this board for calling the Guenonian and Eliadean approaches too essentializing but I think that actually allows him to go further than most uncritical scholars trying to fit everything into neat boxes.

Dictionary of Gnosis and Esotericism is an amazing resource as are really all his specialized work in Western Esoteric Studies.

The place to start would be his Western Esotericism: A Guide for the Perplexed. Great history and overview.

You can also find Hermes in the Academy (a book of the establishment of esoteric studies in amsterdam) online for free as a pdf as well as many of his lectures on youtube.

Also, check out the scholars he works with. Godwin, Broeck, Faivre, etc. -- all are also luminaries of the field.


For your questions, I would suggest his book Western Esotericism and the Science of Religion.

[Anonymous No.14942081]

>>14941988
Retards have existed in all ages, magick and shamanism is fucking stupid.

[Anonymous No.14942941]

>>14942043
>reasonable amount of shrooms
It's none.

[Anonymous No.14943089]

>>14941057
>joke scientifically
reddit is back to that way

[Anonymous No.14943812]

>>14942061
Good post

[Anonymous No.14943840]

People who view goethe as anyhting more than a great fiction (prose or lyric) writer are so fucking retarded its not even funny. and i say this as a german.

[Anonymous No.14943859]

>>14940468
Based LARP noticer

[Anonymous No.14943906]

>>14939884
Hermeticism, Alchemy and Jungian theory, (not post-jungian, beware)


>>14939903
>I'd love to see a group of people who utilize or recreate historical examples of ritual or attempt to recreate the psychological effects of said ritual, and then document and analyze the results.

What is freemasonry .ru?


>>14940448
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlZIhE8wHU0

[Anonymous No.14943934]

>>14939884
There’s 2 ways of studying occultism I want to talk about right now. One way is the “advanced” “enlightened” “modern” “Western” “scholarly” view, in which you sort of hedge your bets and think about everything as if Richard Dawkins is breathing down your neck ready to make fun of you for every “unscientific” thing you read and think about. From this point of view, esotericism is something to be scientifically, historically, philosophically, and psychologically dissected and analyzed until there’s nothing left but this school, sect, tradition, etc., influencing that school, sect, tradition, etc., and this historical figure possibly having temporal lobe epilepsy while that one is possibly a schizoid, and so forth. And there’s no way that some Native American shamans can ACTUALLY shapeshift into animals temporarily, right?

The other way to study it is it personally and intimately. You’re willing to be transformed. You have something like “faith”, although not in the sense of a complete naïveté which believes everything the Theosophists say. You read widely in many great traditions of the world. You may see the promising emergence of unusual states of consciousness and even magical phenomena. You levitate a little bit when you’re meditating and can occasionally read minds and foretell the future.

tl;dr either read up on shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Kabbalah, Hasidism, Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Christianity, Sufism, etc., everything you can get your hands on because you’re actually hungry for spiritual truth, or just be a lukewarm bullshitter

[Anonymous No.14943949]

>>14943934
The third way is to accept it as a gay LARP, true name participants as "Faggot" and watch them seethe
>see: masonic internet defense force

[Anonymous No.14943954]

>>14943934
What's the point of pretending you can levitate etc when in reality you cannot? Seems rather unhinged.

[Anonymous No.14943960]

>>14943840
Hello, Achmed.

[Anonymous No.14943980]

>>14943954
Just some light joking, anon. Strange stuff does happen in this world, though.

To the OP, if you want an even shorter answer, a combined study of Gurdjieff. Theosophy and Anthroposophy might prove useful.

[Anonymous No.14943996]

>>14943954
DUDE I'M ASTRALLY LEVITATING

[Anonymous No.14944052]

>>14942061
>Western Esotericism: A Guide for the Perplexed
Currently reading that, great work. Is there a similar book covering Eastern beliefs from an academic standpoint?

[Anonymous No.14944109]

>>14943949
That's pretty much the first option lol.

[Anonymous No.14944245]

>>14943840
>Shekelbaumstein is a German surname

[Anonymous No.14944450]

>>14943906
>>14939903
>>I'd love to see a group of people who utilize or recreate historical examples of ritual or attempt to recreate the psychological effects of said ritual, and then document and analyze the results.
> What is freemasonry .ru?

Check out the posts on Ribbonfarm and the old work (on archive.org) of Sarah Perry, she deals with ritual in daily life; other suggestion is the emerging field of ritual studies, there are even companies who creates rituals; one thing to keep in mind is that the results in freemasonry are not well studied, in fact that's an open problem in masonology.

[Anonymous No.14945069]

>>14939884
how did people study myths? Look at Frazers Golden Bough or Levi Strausses Mythologyques to get a good idea

[Anonymous No.14945547]

So you want to be the
>HERMETINOOOO OCULLT BALERINOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Study advaita vedanta

[Anonymous No.14947107]

>>14945547
Advaitacrypto-buddhism.

[Anonymous No.14947116]

>>14945547
Advaita is crypto-buddhism

[Anonymous No.14947134]

>>14943934
Best post lol. Really got to the core of it.

[Anonymous No.14947146]

>>14943934
Yeah good post.

>>14945547
Pic related.

[Anonymous No.14947395]

>>14947116
Buddhism is crypto-advaita

[Anonymous No.14947750]

>>14942061
Thank you anon.

[Anonymous No.14948175]

>>14939884
You can't because they are pseudosciences. Only schizos, charlatans and room temperature iq people believe in that shit.