Quantcast
[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / g / ic / jp / lit / sci / tg / vr ] [ index / top / reports / report a bug ] [ 4plebs / archived.moe / rbt ]

Maintenance is complete! We got more disk space.
Become a Patron!

/lit/ - Literature


View post   

[ Toggle deleted replies ]
File: 3 KB, 800x533, 800px-Anarchist_flag.svg.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15128738 No.15128738 [Reply] [Original]

Looking for some good systematic critiques of ancom and libertarian socialism. Left or right perspectives -- I don't mind.

>> No.15128753

>>15128738
Keep looking, hope you can find it.

>> No.15128817
File: 118 KB, 454x322, 64EAFC44-5237-482F-A882-900BAAF12C56.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15128817

>>15128738
Bookchin.

I consider his democratic-confederalism anarchism matured.

>> No.15128826

>>15128817
No, this is the exact sort of thing I'm looking for a criticism of. Thanks for contributing though.

>> No.15128839

>>15128826
You said “left or right perspectives” this is from the left.
It’s exactly what you asked for. He’s critical of Marxist-Leninism and anarchism. Perfectly sensible.

>> No.15128857

>>15128839
He's not critical enough to let go of libertarian socialism completely. Again, not the sort of thing I'm looking for. Thanks for contributing though.

>> No.15128863

>>15128738
Any modern economics textbook will tell you all the questions you can ask libertarian socialists that they will have no answers to

>> No.15128901

>>15128857
So learn to phrase your request right in the first place.

You want a critique from neoliberalism and monarchists

>>15128863
>muh sowell
You’re in over your head.

>> No.15128930

>>15128901
>You want a critique from neoliberalism and monarchists
You think these and anarchism itself are the only positions by which a critique against anarchism can be made? Please leave the thread if you're not going to contribute seriously.

>> No.15128933

>>15128901
Imagine thinking I'm talking about a political hack like Sowell and not just a standard college economics textbook

>> No.15128943

>>15128930
There’s feudalism, liberalism and socialism.
You said “left or right” and still have yet to be more specific with this vague request

>> No.15128947

>>15128933
I’m saying you’ve brought economics into a political thread

>> No.15128958

>>15128943
Wow, you really don't know much about the world, don't you? There's so much more to it than you realize. We are not limited to 3 political positions.
Please leave the thread immediately, you're not a serious contributor and you're derailing it.

>> No.15128960

>>15128947
The type of people who don't think politics and economics are intertwined are the people who don't have a functioning ideology.

>> No.15128965

>>15128863
>Any modern economics textbook
Any recs?

>> No.15128968

>>15128965
Krugman's Mircroeconomics

>> No.15128974

>>15128958
That’s a general trend in history. I’m just tired.
Do be more specific next time.

>>15128960
Reading Smith makes one realize they can’t be liberals anymore, but some level of socialist.

>> No.15128977

>>15128974
Please, just leave the thread. Thank you.

>> No.15128981

>>15128974
>Reading Smith makes one realize they can’t be liberals anymore, but some level of socialist.
Why are you reading economists from the 18th century and not ones that are more relevant to our times?

>> No.15128982
File: 36 KB, 309x377, 49BFE382-1D26-4EA3-8803-8FDDCA6B79D1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15128982

>>15128968

>> No.15128986

>>15128981
I am.
Cockshott, and Wolff.

>> No.15128990

>>15128986
Every time I've tried to go into a critique of Cockshott or Wolff you stopped responding to me. Will you try to respond this time?

>> No.15128999

>>15128986
I think it has to do with you not actually not having knowledge on the books or the subject at hand but you think that bringing up names adds credit to your argument not thinking anyone will actually respond. It's very intellectually dishonest and unethical really.

>> No.15129005

All the man wanted were some critiques of ancom and butterfly had to (predictably) barge in and ruin it.

>> No.15129012

>>15128738

Part 1

Ancom/LS want to be free from the control of big corporate enterprises and rich influential politicians that came to power in capitalism wile they forget what made them so powerful to begin with, modern dependencies. The people who weld the most sway over a capitalist Society are the people who cornered the market for essential supplies: food, water, electricity, transportation, communication, medicine, oil, almost all of these are markets run by private companies overseen by the government. These industries are essential for modern life, they are all very complex and required a lot of skilled people all working together in order for us to live as we do. Even if these industries are controlled by a “people’s government” or even by local state authorities we are still dependent on some form of larger authority to be expected to regulate and oversee the operation of day-to-day necessities.

>> No.15129026

>>15128996
I think it would be better to start off with Cockshott since he goes more in-depth on what the society would actually look and before I go deep on the economics you realize Cockshott's ideas are based on having a strong state. Not very libertarian or anarchist.

>> No.15129027

>>15128999
No, I’m not an economics student.
One guy was questioning me about Cockshott while I was reading it and I quotes and discussed some part of it. I believe it was about international trade. Marx had died before getting to that stuff so Cockshott had refer to Ricardo.
Call it “intellectually lazy” if you like, there’s nothing dishonest about it. I’ve read them and listened to youtubes of them. Still do.

>>15129005
With a critique of anarchocomunism. What does he want? Ted Kaczynski?

>> No.15129035

>>15129027
>One guy was questioning me about Cockshott while I was reading it and I quotes and discussed some part of it. I believe it was about international trade. Marx had died before getting to that stuff so Cockshott had refer to Ricardo.
>Call it “intellectually lazy” if you like, there’s nothing dishonest about it. I’ve read them and listened to youtubes of them. Still do.
It's dishonest to go yeah I know how my economy functions and instead of responding to arguments just posting "Read Cockshott" and then leaving.

>> No.15129043

>>15129026
People can run their own lives. A strong community can overpower a state. See Bookchin already posted.
What time is it where you are?

>>15129035
You know who else name drops?
Anonymous. Not just all the economists, but all the philosophers and fiction writers.

>> No.15129046

>>15129027
And he clarified that it wasn't what he was looking for, yet you persisted.
>What does he want? Ted Kaczynski?
As if that's the only other perspective you can critique ancom from. Why are you so narrow-minded? (Please don't answer that, I don't want your (You))

>> No.15129058

>>15129046
That’s not clarification

>> No.15129064

>>15129043
>People can run their own lives. A strong community can overpower a state. See Bookchin already posted.
But Cockshott's economics don't work with Bookchins bottom up "state". It needs a central power who has direct control and doesn't need to go down to the community level to vote on things.

>You know who else name drops
Yeah but your supposed to name them when you know enough about their work that you can go in depth.

>> No.15129065

>>15128738

Part 2

No one works for free. These people don’t seem to realize that the modern world is supported by Industries that were started by capitalist for the porpoise of making money. Your doctors work for a paycheck, so do your internet providers, farmers etc. Most of these commodities that we take for granted, that we consider essential nowadays we’re once considered luxuries only the elites had access to.

>> No.15129077

>>15128738
Stirner. The Union of Egoists is a far different system than AnCom.

>> No.15129089

>>15129077
Dont we already live in a union of egoists? Some just asserted their wills better than others and ended up on top

>> No.15129100

>>15129089
No. An individual being obligated and forced to do things against their will is when the Union devolves into something else. Think of the Union more of a voluntary club.
Many modern ancoms believe in obligation to your local Union via democratic votes and other bullshit. Literally enslaving themselves to the Majority.

>> No.15129111

>>15129064
Sure it can work. Like people don’t have access to computers?
Second point is a cope

>>15129077
It’s pretty independent of socialism, but compliments it, or would.

>>15129089
No.

>> No.15129126

>>15129100
>An individual being obligated and forced to do things against their will is when the Union devolves into something else.
It's a fairy tale then. If two people want the same thing, but only one can appropriate it, a relationship of subjugation -- "voluntary" or not -- will form.

>> No.15129153
File: 23 KB, 600x431, 5D572E53-7250-4A5E-8F37-659C843525DC.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15129153

>>15129100
>>15129126
All explained away in The Next Revolution >>15128817 I assure you.

So I thought I was waiting for a long lost of questions about Cockshott, but it’s getting late here

>> No.15129158

>>15129126
The Union is not a State, it is a club with no laws or rules. If two people want something, leave it between them to fight for it (unless you have a stake in one living). Perhaps they'll reach a peaceful solution, perhaps not. In any case, the Individuals are valued higher than the Union.

>> No.15129175

>>15129158
>If two people want something, leave it between them to fight for it
And how does this not describe our current society? People fought it out, some ended up on top, and now they're asserting their will

>> No.15129183

>>15129158
> no laws or rules
Save “Do unto others...”

>> No.15129191

>>15129175
Do you realize how many people are NOT staying home in quarantine?
They have to work. They’re no longer doing this to make a living, but to potentially sacrifice themselves for the stupid job.
I’m not talking about the really important jobs either.
...sleep

>> No.15129192

>>15129183
Remember all those times you've been caught not knowing what the fuck you're talking about?

>> No.15129195
File: 45 KB, 467x348, 1585652885287.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15129195

>>15128817
>I consider his democratic-confederalism anarchism matured.
How do you hit it out of the park with every fucking post? EVERY TIME!!!

>> No.15129203

>>15129100
There in the end has to be a cutler of social obligating to a community, yes? If not it just becomes Ayn Rand shit, right?

>> No.15129207

>>15129191
This doesn't address what a said. I wasn't talking to you anyway.

>> No.15129270

>>15129183
Do unto others what you want, just remember they'll do the same?

>> No.15129284

>>15129203
No. There is no obligations, even to one's past self. Everything comes from You, as you are Now. You can leave, attempt to subvert, and murder all you please. Just remember others will krump you if you get in the way of the life they want.

>> No.15129302

>>15129175
To assert ones will over another in a system is the creation of a State. The Union is dead, long live the new King... Until he is killed by someone who hates him. If everyone is an awakened Egoist that understands they are the most important thing to their decisions, the only way for a State to develop would be for a Union of Egoists to conquer and enslave others. A cabal.
But, with everyone being awakened, it is unlikely that they can convince these individuals into servitude, let alone defeat them all.

>> No.15129339

>>15129302
>To assert ones will over another in a system is the creation of a State.
So when I want a piece of candy, and you want the same piece of candy, and I punch you and take it for myself, that is the creation of a state? In that case maybe states are the natural state of things.
>But, with everyone being awakened
And how are you supposed to do this without a massive assertion of will? i.e. a state

>> No.15129502 [DELETED] 
File: 32 KB, 352x500, 438068-352x500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15129502

>>15128817
Bwahahahaha
Srop embarraissng yourself faggot

Read pic related and free yourself from XIX century bread theory

>> No.15129526
File: 32 KB, 352x500, 438068-352x500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15129526

>>15128817
Bwahahahaha
Stop embarrassing yourself you litlle faggot

Op read pic related and free yourself from XIX century bread theory once for all

>> No.15129568

>>15128738
By 'left perspective' would you include orthodox Marxist?

>> No.15129618

>>15128738
>Anti Chomsky Reader - Peter Collier and David Horowitz
>Anything from Mieses

>> No.15129725

>>15129526
Looks decent. I like the post-structuralist slant
>>15129568
Yeah

>> No.15129742

>>15128738
"Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder" by Vladimir Lenin.

>> No.15129760

>>15128738
Marx

>> No.15130686
File: 2.35 MB, 1164x1698, exitlevel.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15130686

>>15128738
Post-leftism is what you're looking for.

>> No.15130776

>>15130686
Stirner is awesome, and that Ligotti book has an awesome cover. However, anti-natalism is retarded, and nihilism's good when it's about personal freedom, but it's retarded bullshit when it's about accepting a shitty situation.

Still, I'm intrigued by this whole thing, so I'm hoping you'll tell me why I should read these/what's appealing about them.

>> No.15130881

>>15128738
The works of Roberto Unger, who criticizes every political position (he's a radical pragmatist)

I think he covers ancoms specifically in Knowledge And Politics.

His philosophical Trilogy shits all over every ideology, even religions and philosophers. That's The Self Awakened; Religion Of The Future, and The Singular Universe And The Reality Of Time.

He also has a trilogy on Politics. Called Politics: A Work In Social Theory, which has False Necessity; Social Theory; and Plasticity Into Power

>> No.15130901
File: 199 KB, 896x1200, CyNAqdSUAAAI.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15130901

>>15130776
>anti-natalism is retarded
How so?
>nihilism's good when it's about personal freedom, but it's retarded bullshit when it's about accepting a shitty situation
Personal freedom, as you described it, is a spook. If individuals only wish for freedom, it remains an ideal aka a spook. Also, optimism is cowardice.
>why I should read these/what's appealing about them
They provide you with a genuinely amoralistic and anti-delusional perspective that triggers both left and right wingers.

>> No.15130907

>>15130776
Not that guy, but Ligotti's Conspiracy Against The Human Race is an excellent work in absurdity & black humor, whether or not you agree with him.
This is similar to Abolishing Freedom by Ruda about Fatalism. It's so funny and charming that it's worth it even for a free-will fag

>> No.15130922

>>15128753
fpbp

>> No.15130934

>>15130901
>How so?
Non-existence has no moral value. The idea you prevent suffering and improve the world by ending humanity is meaningless. Who are you improving it for, if no one is there to experience it? You're not saving someone from suffering if they don't exist.

>Personal freedom, as you described it, is a spook. If individuals only wish for freedom, it remains an ideal aka a spook. Also, optimism is cowardice.
When I say personal freedom, I mean freedom of movement and action. Yes, Stirner would call the concept of freedom a spook, but it's a silly point. The fact is, someone living in an open area, without resistance from police, is able to do much more than someone stuck in a little metal box, egoist or not.

>> No.15130944

>>15130907
Thanks for the rundown

>> No.15130992

>>15130934
You're missing the idea of Assemblage.
Visualize and consider the Dust Devil. It arises from dust and conflicting winds.
It is complex, it is an individual, it moves around chaotically as if it had intelligence.
But it's an assemblage of wind and dirt. Larger forces control it, despite it's seeming individuality.
The idea is that humans are a more complex version of this.
This realization is what transforms consciousness into the author of horror, because not only are you an Assemblage, you're AWARE of it.
How yucky. Better take my pills and go to the bar and try to get laid so I can forget that free will is impossible

>> No.15130996

>>15130934
>The fact is, someone living in an open area, without resistance from police, is able to do much more than someone stuck in a little metal box, egoist or not.
To prefer one or the other involves spooks

>> No.15131010

>>15130996
There's no real utility in that critique, though. Spook or not, you can play all the mind games you want, but you'll be physically and mentally better off in one situation than the other. Frankly, when philosophy gets to this point, it loses its utility and is worthless.

>> No.15131011

>>15128738
'The Poverty of Philosophy' by Karl Marx.

>> No.15131012

I want to note here that Unger's philosophy books are the antidote to antinatalism/pessimism

>Imagination over dogma, vulnerability over serenity, aspiration over obligation, comedy over tragedy, hope over experience, prophecy over memory, surprise over repetition, the personal over the impersonal, time over eternity, life over everything. ”
—Roberto Mangabeira Unger, The Self Awakened

>> No.15131016

>>15131012
>the antidote to antinatalism/pessimism
How?

>> No.15131021

>>15130881
Sounds based. Thanks for the rec

>> No.15131031

>>15131010
The real mind game is thinking there's a 'you' to enjoy one situation over the other, or that this 'you' has agency at all

>> No.15131040

>>15131016
Read that shit, you lazy hump.
You don't have to read the whole mess, just pick one. Self Awakened is p gud. Religion Of The Future as well. They can be read out of order

>> No.15131048

>>15131021
We do what we can

>> No.15131066

>>15131031
There is a you, though. I believe in the zen ideas on illusion of the self and how we're all expressions of one system, but the thing is even with that recognized, with the illusion of self and all, you do still exist. It may be an illusion, that all your mental functions come from a single point because they don't, but regardless of that, the fact is you're still experiencing and perceiving everything from your perspective. So we can talk about the spooks and illusions of self and all that, but the fact is I'd much rather be where I am than where someone in prison is.

>> No.15131137

>>15131066
Well no shit, lol.
I'm just giving the perspective.
That's honestly why Hinduism is fucked too, it depersonalizes and dissociates people on purpose to support a caste system and war economy. Bhagavad Gita is mostly an argument for killing people because you've been ordered to.

>> No.15131185

>>15129192
Goodness, anonymous has the worst memory ever. Only remembers things as he sees it.

>>15129207
I’m saying the majority of people are all too willing slaves. This is not NOT an egoistic world.

>>15129526
Oh yeah. I have his Stirner book.

>> No.15131425

>>15128738
>Looking for some good systematic critiques of ancom and libertarian socialism. Left or right perspectives -- I don't mind.
Why these posts by the way, are you a paid shill, searching for arguments?

>> No.15131428
File: 230 KB, 1193x1280, 163039209.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15131428

>>15130934
>Non-existence has no moral value.
On the contrary, the will, ignited by the knowledge that non-being is better than being, is the supreme principle of morality.

>> No.15132126

>>15131428
Non-being is not better than being. Non-being has no value, it's a non-thing. What you just said is word salad.

>> No.15132179

>>15129339
No, when you have an incident where two egos clash, that is just a fight. When you have long term obligations, where one Individual HAS TO comply, that is a State. You may win the fight, but you may not win the next fight if it is within the other's self interest to fight.
Maybe getting punched will have them back off and realize your might made right, but maybe not. It's hard to convince someone with pure violence, especially someone with high self-esteem and self-worth.
Everyone being awakened is an ideal world. I never said the UoE was realistic today, but it is far superior to this current world of self-hatred. The State would never allow their people to have high self-esteem, as then the Individual would always fight against the State.

>> No.15132262

>>15129742
We have a winner!

>> No.15132323

>>15130686
Pessimism is boring and gay

>> No.15132410

>>15131185
where do you find the energy to deal with these cats?

>> No.15132460

If you want to destroy class, you need to abolish false consciousness as it detracts from the very real struggle for class liberation. This is why authoritarian regimes are the best way to bring that about - lib socs just sit around holding hands, smoking weed and crying in a corner when one of them is too assertive at the expense of getting things done. If you want a small, well-run commune, sure, be a lib soc, but trying to turn a country socialist through green square means is a joke and far too idealistic.

>> No.15132538

>>15132460
I think centralized authoritarianism is idealistic, my proposal is acknowledging the inherent power that local communities already possess. If people were in touch with the community and environment around them, there would be no need for a larger centralized authority telling everyone how to organize themselves. An individual person is only conscious of so many other people, once we start trying to control large abstract categorizations of people is when we start making a mess. Social problems are a local affair, not a universal one.

>> No.15134013

>>15128738
>>15128857
bob black anarchy after leftism

>> No.15134900

>>15128738
https://libcom.org/library/fundamentals-revolutionary-communism-amadeo-bordiga

>> No.15135845

>>15132179
Nonsense dude.

>>
Name (leave empty)
Comment (leave empty)
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Password [?]Password used for file deletion.
reCAPTCHA
Action