/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15427474]

It's time.

>Modern Americans have enormous difficulty in grasping hierarchical social structures. We grew up steeped in "applied Christianity" pretty much the way the Hitler Youth grew up steeped in Hitler. The suggesting that slavery could ever be or have been, as Aristotle suggests, natural and healthy, is like suggesting to the Hitler Youth that it might be cool to make some Jewish friends… We think of the master-slave relationship as usually sick and twisted, and invariably adversarial. Parent-child relationships can be all three. But they are not normally so. If history (not to mention evolutionary biology) proves anything, it proves that humans fit into dominance-submission structures almost as easily as they fit into the nuclear family.

>It is in fact very difficult to argue that the War of Secession made anyone's life more pleasant, including that of the freed slaves. (Perhaps your best case would be for New York profiteers and Unitarian poets who produced homilies to war.) War destroyed the economy of the South. It brought poverty, disease and death… While material things are not everything, and the psychological impact of freedom was large and usually positive, you will find few slave narratives in which the late 1860s are remembered as days of wine and roses.

>I don't think the conversion of Southern slaves into Southern sharecroppers made anyone much freer, because it created few practical options for the people involved. Before, you were an agricultural laborer who worked on the same farm for your entire life; after, ditto.

[Anonymous No.15427481]

>>15427474
ok, fag

[Anonymous No.15427493]

>>15427474
What book?

[Anonymous No.15427504]

>>15427474
North vs South wasn't freedom vs slavery, but capitalism vs aristocracy. As it turns out the collective pride of individuals is more potent than the individual pride of a collective.

[Anonymous No.15427514]

>>15427493

[Anonymous No.15427565]

>>15427474
It was weird seeing him cry during his talk with Justin Murphy.

[Anonymous No.15427578]

>>15427565
what now

[Anonymous No.15427582]

>>15427474
>We think of the master-slave relationship as usually sick and twisted, and invariably adversarial
This is a good thing, the freemasons did nothing wrong

[Anonymous No.15427591]

>>15427578
The point when Moldbug's talking about Freda Gabe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRQO3VbJsMw&t=1437s

[Anonymous No.15427602]

>>15427474
>Christianity isn't hierarchical
>nazis bad!
what a fucking retard. man i really hate when boomers have these shitty takes and think they're fucking genuises who found the key to the universe.

[Anonymous No.15427607]

>>15427474
Writes like a high school kid.

[Anonymous No.15428511]

>>15427474
He just looks like a total pseud...

[Anonymous No.15429886]

>>15427514
>>15427474
This is vomit fuel

[Anonymous No.15429952]

>>15427602
How the hell is Christianity hierarchical
The very birth of Jesus represents the annihilation of the primary natural hierarchy of the family

[Anonymous No.15429957]

>>15429952
no.

[Anonymous No.15429972]

>>15429957
And why not?

[Anonymous No.15430025]

>>15429952
wut

[Anonymous No.15430274]

>>15429952
I don't get how you came to that conclusion. Can you explain this in a bit more detail.

[Anonymous No.15430382]

>>15427514
I'll be the leader :)

[Anonymous No.15430393]

>>15427602
Yes, the Nazis were bad

[Anonymous No.15431079]

>>15430274
>>15430025
Just as the immaculate conception transcends natural birth, so does his unnatural relationship with Joseph undermine the natural authority of the father over his child
He later elaborates on the theme - at all parts familial hierarchy is repudiated
It is very simple metaphysic: God, being omnipresent, cannot grant particular persons or institutions power or meaning
The application of these principles has led to modern individualism, egalitarianism, etc. which the larpers invariably hate

[Anonymous No.15432091]

>>15431079
I mean, I would agree that Christianity birthed the modern version of egalitarianism. That's like 80% of what Moldbug talks about in 'How Dawkins got Pwned'

[Anonymous No.15432497]

>>15430393
they're essentially quotidian when looking at 20th century national and ethic violence, the fixation on de ebil notseez is a little silly all things considered. Whenever someone says Nazis its usually for political reasons; in the civil religion Nazis represent the ultimate evil and its pretty useful if you want to say your enemy is a the Devil without being a Christian.

[Anonymous No.15432508]

>>15427474
>some bourgeois talks about judeo christian values

pass

[Anonymous No.15433409]

>>15427602
He's a jew, he doesn't know better.

[Anonymous No.15433424]

Oh, look, another writer coming to the inevitable conclusion that Americans are shit because they're Protestants. Welcome to the club, brother, we're glad you're here.

[Anonymous No.15433511]

>We grew up steeped in "applied Christianity" pretty much the way the Hitler Youth grew up steeped in Hitler.

You can't convince me WW2 isnt the new modern creation myth.

[Anonymous No.15433530]

>>15427474
>Modern Americans have enormous difficulty in grasping hierarchical social structures.
Are you shitting me?
Fatsos 'yes sir' this and that, stand in line faithfully at the DMV, salute the flag, praise their retard private overseas mercs and suck the asshole of a orange toupee'd orangutang just because he got put in a house on some hill
They are potty trained fascists, they are just too weak of mind and body to exercise

[Anonymous No.15433580]

>>15433530
>this is how a modern american tries to grasp hierarchical social structures

[Anonymous No.15433601]

What does the slave feel about all that though

[Anonymous No.15433617]

>>15431079
Doesn't really fit with actual Christian history though. How a religion is build by practice, followers and commentaries is more important than the letter of the key texts, which is always filtered and only understood through the former.
In practice Christianity produced some of the most enduring hierarchical organisations in history and it also upheld most of the hierarchies that were prevalent when it started taking root.
Christianity is spiritual revolution, which allows to conveniently push the revolutionary part into an afterworld. It takes a radical inversion of Christian thought to produce materialistic revolution. So while Christianity is one step on the way towards modern liberalism, it's still dead wrong to pretend Christianity hasn't been overwhelmingly hierarchical over the past 2000 years.

[Anonymous No.15433728]

>>15427474
sounds pretty retarded, anon. do you have your helmet on? i'm sure your mommy is looking for you.

[Anonymous No.15433811]

>>15427474
>enormous difficulty in grasping hierarchical social structures. We grew up steeped in "applied Christianity"

What the fuck? Christianity is EXACTLY about hierarchy and submission. Yes, it appeals to the lowest-standing and promises an eventual inversion, but also it centers very prominently on a guy called the Lord, whom you serve meekly, whom questioning will justly land you an eternity of torture, and who has historically sanctioned mass-murder and enslavement plenty of times. Suggesting that US dogmatic dedication to egalitarianism significantly related to Christianity is preposterous.

[Anonymous No.15433838]

>>15427474
This guy is a literal nazi

[Anonymous No.15433846]

>>15433811
>Suggesting that US dogmatic dedication to egalitarianism significantly related to Christianity is preposterous.
It is. It is the evolution after christianity, when god is destroyed because they realize he isn't equal to his worshippers. That's how you get socialist liberalism.

[Anonymous No.15434097]

>>15427474
>hierarchical oppressive structures are actually super cool and natural
>sharecropping/ending slavery was bad because it hurt slaves
These two positions are inconsistent, either you do or you don't care about the health and well being of slaves.

[Anonymous No.15434177]

>>15427474
I agree. Going off this, you can listen to the recordings of old people who grew up as slaves in the south, and the vast majority looked back at the time positively or decent.

[Anonymous No.15434190]

>>15427474
But werent the guys who dun the slavory christian to begin with? seems like reinterpretation rather than innately christian.

[Anonymous No.15434199]

>>15433838
He's a Jew who refuses to entertain even the notion that Jews have had a negative influence on society.

[Anonymous No.15434557]

>>15434097
What about the first position implies that the health and well being of slaves are not cared for?

[Anonymous No.15434605]

>>15434557
You're right I misread. Rereading I realize they're not inconsistent. Still a bonkers argument. I'd very much like to see how he's defining "natural". It strikes me as a way to avoid making an actual argument by a sort of empty appeal to tradition.

[Anonymous No.15434871]

>>15434605
>empty appeal to tradition
Uhh...Anon, Anthropology has never discovered a hierarchy-less society. Similarly, Systems Science tells us that ALL systems have a hierarchical structure, even fucking rocks. It amazes me how you can take this utterly backward egalitarian ideology and let it brainwash you to such an extent that an obvious, abundantly proven fact being mentioned in passing seems like an 'empty appeal to tradition' to you.

[Anonymous No.15435696]

>>15434871
I never claimed that there can or should be a society without hierarchies. The fact that there are hierarchies in most societies tells us nothing about what hierarchy structure, what kind of society, is ideal. You also seem to be implying that all hierarchies, power, etc. are the same. But this is patently false. The social pressure you feel exerted over you to stay quiet while a politician gives a speech is a very different expression of power than that of being a slave, and a democratic society, while hierarchical, is categorically different from a despotic one.

[Anonymous No.15436626]

>>15433580
He clearly isn't American.

[Anonymous No.15436635]

>>15427582
Fuck off Jesuit nigger

[Anonymous No.15436671]

>>15436626
He's clearly a white or jewish college-aged american internet socialist.

[Anonymous No.15436698]

>>15433511
>You can't convince me WW2 isnt the new modern creation myth.
Basically, "generalized antiracism" filled the void where Christianity once was at least among the ruling class. Ironically it was probably things like the Fundamentalist Controversy and analogous debates that, more than anything, that led to that happening. I think there was obviously some flirtation with scientism, eugenics etc. but it seems like they were so disgusted with Hitler that things like the eugenics craze were stopped pretty quickly after the war. Obviously the Jews played a role here as well.

>>15433424
Catholics have pretty much always been over-represented in left-wing movements in the US (to be fair it's probably because they're Irish).

[Anonymous No.15436704]

>>15427474
surprise, an autistic tech guy is historically illiterate

[Anonymous No.15436713]

>>15436698
I know its not popular here guys, but i really like the somber protestant aesthetic. Its not fair that its dieing out. I guess its in its nature though to die silently and with a wimper.

[Anonymous No.15436733]

>>15427474

by using this same logic, you should be grateful that you are a slave to the cathedral

[Anonymous No.15436736]

>>15436713
you mean with some fucking dignity?
Anyway it's not dying. We're just not fucking jokers who post about it on the channel, it means more to us than a shitpost aesthetic.
I shouldn't even be talking about it with you

[Anonymous No.15436742]

>>15435696
yeah for a slave the owner is responsible for the politician, whereas the politician is not in any way responsible for the well being of his constituents. it's likely that slavery got out of hand and there were abuses, but those should have been handled and punished. and what about now? aren't there rampant abuses of workers? The same with feminism. the women complained about being free from the oppression of bad relationships with men, but what about now? they freely choose to be in bad relationships and then go on reddit and post that no one should ever have children! their free choices lead to worse outcomes.

[Anonymous No.15436751]

>>15436742
Take the George Fitzhugh pill.

[Anonymous No.15436755]

>>15436742
You sound like the sum total of your experience with people is online

[Anonymous No.15436792]

>>15436755
my personal experiences are practically useless, as are yours, you assume from your interactions that you understand people, but how they express themselves under cover of anonymity is truer to their selves than the performances they give to others. and how simplitic is this attack? another variant of the same them, shaming those who disagree or dissent by personal attacks which cannot be repudiated.

I'll try too! you sound like someone who gets angry at posts online when they conflict with your limited personal experiences.

[Anonymous No.15436839]

>>15436736
Im sorry mate. I honestly admire a lot of the veins in protestantism. Its just that its shit on a lot here, and I havent found to many honestly great protestant examples in recent history.

[Anonymous No.15436852]

>>15436742
>it's likely that slavery got out of hand and there were abuses,
I mean there's a large historical record of the reality of slavery, and if you actually cared to look at it you'd find stories and stories of rape, violence, family separation, mass death on the ships that brought them, etc. There isn't a form of forced labor that isn't non-violent.
>and what about now? aren't there rampant abuses of workers?
So because there are still issues, the earlier much much worse form is somehow justified? How does that make any sense.
>The same with feminism. the women complained about being free from the oppression of bad relationships with men, but what about now? they freely choose to be in bad relationships
Freely choosing to be in a bad relationship is very different from being entrapped in an abusive marriage. If a women today is in a bad, but not abusive relationship, she is free to leave at any time. Up until like the 90s there were still some laws on the books allowing marital rape in some states.

[Anonymous No.15437028]

>>15436698
>Catholics have pretty much always been over-represented in left-wing movements in the US (to be fair it's probably because they're Irish).

The United States has NEVER been a Catholic nation and so the Catholics who tried to "fit in" here are bound to be weirdos as a result of the schizophrenic things they feel.

Meanwhile in Europe in the 20th Century Catholics backed fucking Franco and Salazar. And they didn't have all that big of a problem with Mussolini, either.

[Anonymous No.15437045]

>It is in fact very difficult to argue that the War of Secession made anyone's life more pleasant
the reconstruction was botched

[Anonymous No.15437060]

>>15436839
the online tradcaths are larpers, the type of aesthetically minded undedicated people who are attracted to papist gold and pomp.
They're tissue paper, it's not even a conflict, we literally don't need to worry about or think about them.
Recent history? Do a little research.

[Anonymous No.15437161]

>>15427474
Curtis' philosophy undergoes a subtle shift after getting his bus pass stolen in the black neighborhood