/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15494221]

Any literature about this slice of Heaven?

[Anonymous No.15494250]

as an irish person, this island can be sometimes frustrating, but i am always immensely proud of our contribution towards literature

OP, read Joyce, Beckett, Yeats, Flann O'Brien, Patrick Kavannagh

[Anonymous No.15494260]

>>15494250
I'm so proud of Joyce, our most famous fart lover.

[Anonymous No.15494288]

>>15494221
>Hell

[Anonymous No.15494303]

is there a good English translation of An t-Oileánach or will i have to learn Gaelic

[Anonymous No.15494305]

As an anglo I have to say going on poetry walks in ireland is really nice, walk a few miles, stop at a pub, repeat.
>>15494260
red pill me right now

[Anonymous No.15494321]

>>15494221
Unironically start with Joyce, just Dubliners for now.

Do some brief research around the Gaelic Revival and Ireland's relationship with its mythos, British colonialism and revolution. Most of the best Irish writing, in my opinion, either came out of this period, or was a direct critique of it. Yeats was a big progenirator and evokes a lot of Irish lore with his own occult I think his poems are hit-and-miss but an Irish Airman Forsees His Own Death is
one of my favourite pieces

If you liked Joyce's style, At Swim Two Birds by Flann O'Brian is a good bridge between A Portrait and Ulysses. Definitely read Ulysses last and get an annotated edition.

In terms of plays, A Playboy of the Western World is one of the funniest and shortest introductions to Irish contrarianism, it's based off a real story in the Aran islands and is pure lyricism. The Plough and the Stars is another good overview of Irish republicanism, it's a much more serious work but offers a glimpse of the history of the Rising, especially around North Dublin.

On the topic of lyricism, try to read with a slight lilt. Don't go over the top, but remember there's a sing-song quality to much of Hyberno-Irish and most of the great Irish writers capture it.

Beckett is an obvious titan of Irish writing, but his stories don't really give the country much direct thought. In modern writing, My Oedipus Comples by Frank O'Connor is one of the best collections of short stories Ireland has produced. If you want some Sally Rooney schlop, Country Girls by O'Brien is basically chic-lit done better. The Gingerman is another really readable modern novel - funny, fairly outrageous, and manically narrated.

[Anonymous No.15494333]

>>15494221
>irish
>white

[Anonymous No.15494372]

>>15494321
not OP, but, good take, anon

[Anonymous No.15494405]

>>15494303
Most English translations should give you all the good stories. However the point of the book was to preserve the local language, and lots of what makes it beautiful is how Irish phrases things. (e.g. the word for whale is "míol mór" which means if literally translated "giant created thing" but also "large louse". The fishermen struggling all night with it in their nets in English won't give the same impression)
>>15494333
Irish has different words for white. The colour white is bán. But if you say "buachaill bán" it means "golden boy", not "white boy" like the literal translation would say. White skin is described as "fionn" which is how how white water and lightning is described too, and anyone with skin that isn't very very pale would not be called "fionn" though in English they would still be called "white". To say "black person" in Irish, you literally say "blue person" which is "duine gorm". There are far more descriptors of skin colour for whites in Irish than English has.

[Anonymous No.15494427]

>>15494333
>you will never be aching for a pint so long it makes your gut go blue mouldy
>you will never hear the click of tinker's hooves hit dublin with the rain
>you will never be manic and depressed
>you will never have the craic

[Anonymous No.15494439]

>>15494427
>>you will never be manic and depressed
wrong.

[Anonymous No.15494454]

>>15494250
don't forget Heaney

[Anonymous No.15494465]

>>15494221
Nights in the Ol' Rusty Quill

[Anonymous No.15494548]

>>15494333
>>15494427
>you will never shimmy up a shiner on Pana in your bearahs while langered
>you will never do Pana and take four hours to move 40 foot down it
>you will never see some feen get a fifty at mangans, wishing the earth would swally him
>you will never maul on to a buore after gatting by the four faced liar
>you will never get any sca about your one who's pure septic you can use later to mortify her

[Anonymous No.15494639]

>>15494321
I remember reading The Playboy of The Western World in leaving cert. Shawn Keogh was a bit of a knob.

[Anonymous No.15494653]

>>15494405
Fionn meaning White is the most redpilled thing I've learned today.

[Anonymous No.15494772]

>>15494653
Lots of Irish given names mean really weird shit and often have double meanings. Fiachra comes from the word for raven, hunting, and debts. Colm means both a dove and a scar. Fionn also means to discover or invent.

[Anonymous No.15494803]

>>15494772
Translate: Fionn discovered his friend was hunting ravens to pay her debts.

[Anonymous No.15494867]

>>15494803
white white his friend was fiachra fiachra to pay her fiachra

[Anonymous No.15494902]

>>15494803
Fuair Fionn amach bhí a chara ag fiach fiacha le haghaigh a fiach a ghlanadh.

Fionn in the sense of discovery or invention is for new discoveries and inventions, like Columbus discovered America or Einstein discovered the theory of relativity. If you want to add another fionn to the sentence, you could say her debts were from cataract surgery, because cataracts are also fionn.

[Anonymous No.15494909]

>>15494250
Based

[Anonymous No.15494916]

>>15494250
Based irish bro. Imagine shitting on an entire cannon when it isn't even your native tongue.

[Anonymous No.15494972]

>>15494221
>>15494221
Check out Liam O'Flaherty, he has some very beautiful short stories and novels about our island and people :D

[Anonymous No.15495023]

>>15494867
Kék
>>15494902
very cool, anon, thank you

[Anonymous No.15495036]

>>15494972
They really do look like leprechaun

[Anonymous No.15495555]

>>15494405
Anon, I have to say, this is one of the most well-presented and interesting posts I've read today.

As a dyslexic living in Ireland, I found the language to be incomprehensible at first. For about a week, I'd get on the 22 and ask to go to "Dun Lagwhore" and get a puzzled look until I was told to say 'Dun Leirey". My friend raves about the nuances of the Irish language (and I love the way it can reflected in new english idioms and grammar) but this really ignites my curiousity.

Do you have a compendium or book that you could point to for similar multi-faceted translations? I'm about to order some books, and while I've read a fair amount of modern Irish literature, I'd be deeply appreciative of any piece of folkore or mythology you might recommend.

And more generally, I have to say I've found Irish people to be some of the most kindest people I've come across. Stories seem to come naturally to people and I've been entertained by a culture that seems to view being boring as the worst sin of all. Perhaps that's a gross sort of generalization, but I feel people view being entertaining in the same way the English view politeness.

[Anonymous No.15495569]

>>15495036
If you say you don't believe in a leprechaun, one dies.

If you ever spot one, they dissapear.

And they live by a land you can see but never reach.

Use your imagination more.

[Anonymous No.15495756]

>>15495555
Watch the Irish channel because it often has better programming than the other state channels. They have SpongeBob and South Park, which the main free view channels never picked up, and their documentary strands are top notch. There are conversation clubs springing up too where you can try basic Irish with hipsters who learnt school Irish years ago and have forgotten most of it, if you want a foot in the door.

I don't know if Irish is easier or harder to read for dyslexics, because a lot of the letters aren't pronounced, and words are generally spelt to match slender or long vowels to each other either side of consonant clusters. For most people that makes it really easy to spell things in Irish once they learn the basics.

The official standard of Irish which is taught in schools is not like naturally spoken Irish. Flann O'Brien wrote a book in Irish which is translated as The Poor Mouth (Irish title is An Béal Bocht) which is a comedy about hipsters moving from Dublin to hear natural Irish and gain authenticity from the Irish speaking peasants, and deciding the poverty and incomprehensible locals are too authentic for their tastes.

For native speakers this makes a lot of official Irish hilarious. Most people learn only one facet of a word from school, so they unintentionally say things they don't mean in Irish. A good example is cigarette warnings: when they try to say "smokers' children are more likely to start smoking" what they say in Irish can be translated as "it's really hoped that smokers are children of smokers instead of other people's children".
Most words in Irish will have a couple of meanings and aren't really directly translated. If you browse through a dictionary you'll find really weird groups of ideas reside in the same word, and you need to rely on context to tell whether it means one thing or its opposite. If you learn it in school, you won't pick up on the many meanings as easily, but if you learn it naturally, you can use the many meanings to give depth to what you're saying.

It's sort of like how Buddhists use the word "mu" which could mean "no" or "yes". (Irish, like Chinese, has no word for yes or no. That's why a lot of Irish people will answer a question like "Do you like X?" with "I do" instead of yes, even if they don't speak Irish).

And yes, everyone loves a story here. People would prefer an interesting lie over a boring truth. Sorry if I'm not much help, but it's a bit like asking How do you make puns in English?

[Anonymous No.15495766]

Borstal Boy is the first text in the Dudes Rock movement

[Anonymous No.15495792]

>>15494221
>this slice of Heaven

cringe

[Anonymous No.15495814]

>>15494221
You ever been to Cork? It's fucking hideous, it's a botched version of Rotterdam in that it's mishmash of different architectural styles, but unlike Rotterdam, there's no diligence in proper design and layout so it ends up being one of the most miserable looking cities I've ever seen. 40 countries and I've never seen a city that I hated so much as Cork. The countryside is wank too. Angloids and mutts will sing high-praise of the rolling hills and jagged cliffs, but in reality it's marred by ridiculous bungalos every hundred meters, each one painted a different shade of miserable individuality. Only good thing about Ireland is the writing, the people, and the passport, it's hardly heaven.
>>15494250
Flann O'Brien is great.

[Anonymous No.15495838]

>>15494221
How is this book? I recently listened to the author talk about her research in trees, Celtic mysticism, and environmental issues facing the world.
https://www.amazon.com/Speak-Trees-Journey-Ancient-Healing/dp/0735275076/
Her talks were surprisingly not New-Agey. I watched this documentary:
https://www.amazon.com/Call-Forest-Forgotten-Wisdom-Trees/dp/B07VXC665C/

[Anonymous No.15495852]

>>15495814
Most of Cork's layout is because the roads were rivers. A lot of buildings originally had boathouses in the lowest floor, and the steps on most of the buildings were originally for tying up boats. Tourists get lost easily there because it's a string of interconnected islands, so they get confused when they are crossing the same river twice.

[Anonymous No.15495899]

>>15494427
>craic
crack is a borrowing from Scotland. it has nothing to do with originally irish so spelling it like that is stupid.

[Anonymous No.15495928]

Over Nine Waves for retellings of mythology
Dubliners is good, I'm too much of a brainlet for any other joycean works
At Swim Two Birds

all stuff thats been mentioned before really. The plays of John B. Keane and Bryan McMahon for a bit of kerry flavouring.

[Anonymous No.15495929]

>>15495899
Scottish Gael, Irish, and Manx are all the same language when spoken. They were written down by people who spoke different languages, but they're mutually intelligible. Most people who can read Scottish Gael can read Irish and vice versa, but written Manx is far less intelligible for either because a Welsh speaker wrote that down first.

[Anonymous No.15496149]

>>15494221
If I may, anon, I have a suggestion. Cré na Cille. I think it is close to being the foremost piece of literature from Ireland because it is exquisitely written and thoroughly exemplary of the nation psyche, but I am biased. You will find two translations of the novel. You may discern from this article which one you want to read: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/cr%C3%A9-na-cille-do-english-versions-hit-the-funny-bone-1.3014998

You might like to listen to this insightful twenty-five minute lecture on the novel: https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/?fbclid=IwAR1N2kwSDmzVfYrLNFcjxvjcWwt7o1U76IAmQzL11ZVjUJzFAvxZ3_BIaS8#/radio1/21768066

Judge for yourself the quality of the novel, but I will say, it may be difficult if you only read the English version.

By the way, the man who gives the lecture is a fine writer. I would recommend his novel 'Lig sinn i gcathú'. It is set in Baile an Chaisil (Galway in other words) during Easter Week 1949, when the Republic of Ireland Act commenced. The English version would be 'Lead us into Temptation'. 'Tis a terrifc campus novel story - certainly better than 'Normal People'!

>>15495929
I'm afraid they are not mutually intelligble, anon. Not unless the conversants have equally invested time in brushing up on each others vocabulary and pronunciation. Otherwise, only basics will be grasped. I am speaking as an Irish speaker who spoke to someone who had Gaeilge na hAlban.

[Anonymous No.15496592]

>>15494250
Samuel Beckett is the greatest writer from Ireland and you completely forgot to mention him. Come on, man.

[Anonymous No.15496614]

>>15494427
>>you will never be aching for a pint so long it makes your gut go blue mouldy
Drinking is degenerate, m9.

[Anonymous No.15496619]

>>15496592
Doesn't really write 'about this slice of Heaven', he even asked not to be buried in Ireland.

He's still a legend though, but there's something more universal about his work. Murphy's meant to be a half-decent novel with a funny Irish character.

[Anonymous No.15496658]

>>15494221
Heaney, Joyce, Yeats, Beckett, Ó Cadhain, Behan, McGahern, the cycles, Swift, Goldsmith's poetry, Edgeworth, Synge, the rhyming weavers, especially Orr, Muldoon.

[Anonymous No.15496685]

>>15495756
>Most words in Irish will have a couple of meanings and aren't really directly translated. If you browse through a dictionary you'll find really weird groups of ideas reside in the same word, and you need to rely on context to tell whether it means one thing or its opposite. If you learn it in school, you won't pick up on the many meanings as easily, but if you learn it naturally, you can use the many meanings to give depth to what you're saying.
>It's sort of like how Buddhists use the word "mu" which could mean "no" or "yes"
Many languages to some extent have many different meaning for same word, it is what it is but to wank over it is cringe.

[Anonymous No.15496706]

>>15496685
seething anglo

[Anonymous No.15496714]

>>15496685
Using the word cringe is the real cringe though.

[Anonymous No.15496746]

As an American I can't even fathom the kind of tight knit love of country you must feel on your small aisle, where your great authors are literally your own kin, neighbors from just a few hours away. America is so giant and different that it's hard to really latch onto anything here. Our great authors are great authors from different parts of a vastly different nation. East,west, south, north, even different states, all in their own locality and heritage. I feel no connection to any of it. It must be nice to know who you are and where you're from.

[Anonymous No.15496761]

>>15496746
Irishanon here. Everything you've said is true, but all my favorite writers are American funnily. And I connect with very american things like Westerns for some reason.

[Anonymous No.15496771]

>>15496149
>Not unless the conversants have equally invested time in brushing up on each others vocabulary and pronunciation
Most of the vocab is the same, even though they spell it differently. Ar aon nós tuigim iad agus bhí an triúir nó ceathrar a bhí mé i gcomhrá le in ann caint liom. Is níos deacair dom uladh a thuigint. Freisin is dea éasca manainnis a thuigint ach níl éinne in ann é a labhair anois- tá recordings ón dheireadh cainteoir ar fháil agus muna raibh sé scríofa I ngach áit ar an oiléan ní bheadh fhíos agam go bhfuil sé scríofa i mbreatnais. Tá na halbanaí beagánín níos deacra a thuigint uaireanta ach I ndáiríre is an mhanainnis an teanga chéanna.
Cathú's another word that the various meanings are great. The scope of meaning Irish gives to that prayer makes it unsurprising we stayed half pagan.

[Anonymous No.15496772]

>>15496706
I am not anglo.

[Anonymous No.15496785]

>>15496685
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_cultures

[Anonymous No.15496792]

>>15496761
Very american things (pre 1990) are just European things with some added freedom.
White american writers, or just white americans are europeans (that's changing though). That is why you feel the connection.

[Anonymous No.15496797]

>>15496761
>very american things like Westerns
I think that's common because of the tána. Flann O'Brien's cowboys spring to mind.

[Anonymous No.15496805]

>>15496771
>Spend so long fighting autocorrect I spell deacra as deacair
Meh close enough

[Anonymous No.15496831]

>>15496785
break it down for me doc

[Anonymous No.15496853]

>>15496831
Most Europe and North America says what it means and everyone gets it. Ireland, France, Greeks, gypsies, Arabs and Asians get confused by their own languages.

[Anonymous No.15496878]

>>15494221
I love Ireland. As an argentinian I feel a special bond to your nation.

Sláinte bros!

[Anonymous No.15496897]

>>15494427
>you will never starve the Irish like your ancestors did
Feels bad man

[Anonymous No.15496926]

>>15496831
High context cultures and languages like chinese and japanese will use other cues for example body language (additional context) to communicate, therefore one word can have several meanings, but the correct meaning will inferred.

Low context languages like german or skandinavian do not depend on additional cues to convey information, words used will normally have a well defined, exact meaning, by using words that may mean several similar things, person receiving the information will not able to infer the intended meaning.

It is a spectrum though and can differ a lot even in the same culture in different setting, scientific, formal, informal conversations etc.

[Anonymous No.15497077]

Hate Dublin, I'm lucky enough to be stranded in Cork until travel restrictions lift, I pray they never do.
>>15494221
Read Yeats, Joyce, Synge, O'Casey, Beckett, Burke, Gregory, Wilde, etc etc you know the big names. Pearse is somewhat overlooked despite everything. Heaney isn't that great, but his translations are. An Seabhac is a gem.
>>15494288
Correct.
>>15494303
Don't learn Gaeilge.
>>15495814
Description applies to most Irish cities. The countryside, though bare, is great so kill yourself you soulless retard.
>>15496746
>aisle
lol
Melville is my favourite though.
>>15496878
Cringe.

[Anonymous No.15497136]

>>15497077
>An Seabhac is a gem
Oh fuck I hadn't thought about Jimín and getting the fowl drunk in a long time. I think I have a copy of that somewhere.

[Anonymous No.15497156]

>>15494221
Friendly reminder that Anglo-Irish literature is really British not Irish literature.

[Anonymous No.15497161]

>>15497156
Friendly reminder Swift was laughing at you

[Anonymous No.15497164]

>>15496878
>>15494333

[Anonymous No.15497171]

>>15497161
He wasn't Irish. Nor was Yeats.

[Anonymous No.15497177]

>>15497156
friendly reminder that anglo-irish just means irish and the term itself is an anglo cope

[Anonymous No.15497178]

>>15497171
Are you really that short on talent you need Yeats?

[Anonymous No.15497200]

>>15497178
I'm not British. However, Burke and Wilde are British too, by the way.

[Anonymous No.15497219]

>>15497200
>Wilde is British
kekek I see you're illiterate and ahistorical.

[Anonymous No.15497222]

>>15497200
Is Beckett French?

[Anonymous No.15497228]

>>15497219
What next you are going to tell me, that Kipling was an Indian author?

Joyce, O'Casey, O'Connor, etc. are Irish. Not the Anglo-Irish ruling class.

[Anonymous No.15497235]

>>15497222
British, even if he did settle there.

[Anonymous No.15497241]

>>15497228
>please tell me why Wilde didn't get the night train
If you tell me why a British person would.

[Anonymous No.15497245]

>>15497235
Weird how he didn't have a British passport then.

[Anonymous No.15497251]

>>15497245
So if I get a Kenyan passport I am suddenly a negro?

[Anonymous No.15497258]

>>15497251
>Nationality is by skin colour except for gingers
Good to know.

[Anonymous No.15497262]

>>15497251
>White Kenyans don't exist
Whatever country you're from must be really fucking retarded.

[Anonymous No.15497270]

>>15497077
>Heaney isn't that great, but his translations are
gigabased

[Anonymous No.15497273]

>>15497262
Don't bully the retarded pot of comedy gold the Irish have granted us.
>>15497251
Is Conrad English?

[Anonymous No.15497278]

>>15497258
Irish literature is fine, I just see no reason why you would claim the Anglo-Irish since they were obviously a culturally foreign element. Naturally they didn't feel entirely English, hence why an imperial British label is more suitable for them and authors such as Kipling.

Authors I mentioned in the vein >>15497228 of these ones aren't the plastic paddies. That whole Celtic Revival thing is just Victorian sentimentalism.

[Anonymous No.15497285]

>>15497278
>obviously a culturally foreign element
Anon you just claimed Wilde was British.

[Anonymous No.15497287]

>>15497273
Conrad was certainly British, but not English.

[Anonymous No.15497290]

>>15497287
Was he Welsh?

[Anonymous No.15497314]

>>15497290
Polish, he means he repatriated I think the term is.

[Anonymous No.15497319]

>>15497287
>The UK owns the Ukraine and speaks Polish
Damn Brexit went very wrong for you mad lads.

[Anonymous No.15497330]

>>15497290
>>15497314
>>15497319
I'm well aware of his Polish origins but his work belongs to the corpus of British literature and no other country.

[Anonymous No.15497335]

>>15497222
>>15497235
Beckett is Irish bro, how are you posting here and not knowing this? His biggest connections to Britain are liking cricket and visiting Lucia Joyce when she was interred at an asylum, and while both of those things meant he stayed in Northampton a lot I wouldn't call him Northamptonian.

[Anonymous No.15497342]

>>15497319
Also, I am neither British nor Irish, just interested in the notion of national literature and what it is.

[Anonymous No.15497343]

>>15497330
Is Amos Tutuola British then?

[Anonymous No.15497347]

>>15497330
Except Poland. And parts of Africa.

[Anonymous No.15497358]

>>15497343
https://youtu.be/hjWd9a8Ck8U

[Anonymous No.15497368]

>>15497342
Is TS Eliot British?

[Anonymous No.15497370]

>>15497335
The Ascendancy were not Irish.

>>15497343
Never heard of whomever.

>>15497347
So if I write a novel based on a year shipwrecked in Tahiti, does my work belong to the corpus of Polynesian literature?

[Anonymous No.15497377]

>>15497358
Is that a yes?

[Anonymous No.15497390]

>>15497368
Obviously American of the upper crust you see in Henry James, Edith Wharton, Roosevelt, etc.

[Anonymous No.15497394]

>>15497370
>Never heard of whomever
TS Eliot loved him

[Anonymous No.15497402]

>>15497390
But he wrote in English and moved there converted to Anglicanism and gained citizenship and left most of his shit to the British library. If being in the British library doesn't make you British what does?

[Anonymous No.15497408]

>>15497370
Is Cavafy Egyptian?

[Anonymous No.15497411]

>>15497370
>The Ascendancy were not Irish.
You're using a narrative that was outdated before the last century. Joyce talks about it in his letters even. I understand the sentiment, a lot of my family are like that too, but it's not a hill any of them would die on.

[Anonymous No.15497419]

>>15497370
What country gets Lafcadio Hearn?

[Anonymous No.15497422]

>>15494221
God I fucking love being irish, strumpet city is very good

[Anonymous No.15497425]

>>15497402
He's a child of Whitman and Poe, you can't get more American! His verse has far more in common with American verse than say, Hardy, Auden, or Larkin.

[Anonymous No.15497428]

>>15497377
I guess it could be.

>>15497402
He can be British when Andrew Lloyd Weber is buried with a steak through his heart and we can be sure no more musical adaptations are on the cards.

[Anonymous No.15497438]

>>15497425
>Poe and Whitman had a child and it was TS Eliot
Fucking gold

[Anonymous No.15497440]

>>15497428
>with a steak through his heart
You're American aren't you?

[Anonymous No.15497442]

>>15497438
I would read that fanfiction.

[Anonymous No.15497448]

>>15497442
Keep asking anon questions and we might get the first draft.

[Anonymous No.15497452]

>>15497440
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/a-steak-through-the-heart-1.357800

[Anonymous No.15497455]

>>15497452
Sorry I don't read British literature.

[Anonymous No.15497459]

>>15497408
Greek.

>>15497419
Yankee.

>>15497411
I'm not saying this out of any Sinn Fein type resentment or anything, I just think that true Irish literature in English wasn't really born until the traditional Catholic underclass started publishing (whether they practiced the faith or not). Otherwise, the Anglo-Irish literature written by the Ascendancy is just a branch of British literature. For example, you would never dream of claiming Edmund Spenser as one of your writers, would you? (In some ways, I would argue he was the first British poet, since his experience was yoked with imperialism.)

[Anonymous No.15497467]

>>15497459
>Yankee
I think he'd prefer to be British desu. How does New Orleans feel about seceding to the Yankees?

[Anonymous No.15497477]

>>15497459
>Sinn Fein thinks Wilde and Burke were British
Does Hamas think Qotb was American?

[Anonymous No.15497488]

>>15497459
>the traditional Catholic underclass
There's a lot of politics around that.

On Spenser, I can't think why anyone would take him, but again I feel I must underline that the politics around independence was extremely nuanced in the 18th and 19th Centuries. It's a fairly late development that it both became more... homogeneous in a way and more distinctly Catholic, that's a particularly WWI development. You'll still find a number of people view(ed) the Catholic church as the other imperial oppressive regime.

[Anonymous No.15497494]

>>15497459
>Yankee
[Sound of Greek weebs jumping to their deaths intensifies]

[Anonymous No.15497502]

>>15497459
>Wolfe Tone was British by religion
Internet polls the world over must consider you a hero.

[Anonymous No.15497511]

A good analogy to my points about national literature could be bringing up the example of Sextus Empericus. He was a Greek living in the days of the Roman Empire. He learned from Buddhists in India and returned to the West, teaching a philosophy influenced in part by the Buddhists. Culturally he was Hellenic, so I would call him a Greek philosopher, not Roman or Indian.

The Anglo-Irish Ascendancy were culturally British, not Irish, therefore I would call their writing British literature.

[Anonymous No.15497513]

>>15497477
Well, who would set their most famous work in Greeley besides an American?

[Anonymous No.15497521]

>>15497511
Is Marcus Aurelius Greek?

[Anonymous No.15497532]

>>15497521
Was Alexander the Great North Macedonian?

[Anonymous No.15497538]

>>15497532
Nah, he's educated by Aristotle, he's clearly Attic.

[Anonymous No.15497547]

I thought the funniest this thread was going to get was An Seabhac.

[Anonymous No.15497570]

>>15497370
TIL Tahiti belongs to Scotland

[Anonymous No.15497571]

>>15497488
Yet Spenser belonged to the same class of men as Swift, Wilde, Beckett, etc. I understand he held genocidal attitudes about the Irish as well. But by the same line of logic he should be considered an Irish writer, right? Certainly Swift, Wilde, and Beckett had all read him since he was right there with Bunyan as a Protestant classic.

[Anonymous No.15497582]

>>15497571
You should warn the Nazis Beckett was travelling on a false Irish passport.

[Anonymous No.15497597]

>>15497571
Is Finnegans Wake British? Beckett scribed for Joyce on it.

[Anonymous No.15497601]

>>15497597
No, Beckett's just a race traitor.

[Anonymous No.15497606]

>>15497597
>>15497601
Bakas Joyce is Austrian.

[Anonymous No.15497649]

>>15497571
>the same class
Not in terms of nationality. You're having to jump through hoops to build your case while ignoring nationality.

[Anonymous No.15497661]

>>15496592
Read his post again

[Anonymous No.15497689]

>>15497488
I guess my question would be, what makes someone like Burke Irish but not Spenser? What is particularly Irish about Burke or Swift compared to one of their British contemporaries such as Defoe and Hume? I can't see what makes them different desu.

Maybe my perception is based on that WWI development as you described.

[Anonymous No.15497717]

>>15497689
Burke and Swift were both seen by the British to have Irish interests placed above British. Even by anon's crazy logic here >>15497511 Burke arguing for Catholic emancipation would make him Irish. The only British people who thought Swift was favouring Britain thought that the Modest Proposal was a genuine proposal.

[Anonymous No.15497741]

>>15497689
>what makes someone like Burke Irish but not Spenser?
You mean Burke who was born and raised in Ireland, vs Spenser who was born in London and lived in Ireland for a bit in his 30s? I don't think Spenser's as contentious as you seem to believe anon.

If you want a confusing one, Robert "Tressell" Noonan would be a good one.

[Anonymous No.15497770]

>>15497717
But how does that make them Irish? I don't see how arguing for Catholic Emancipation would make Burke an Irishman. That had more to do with his political theories about tradition as a British Tory.

[Anonymous No.15497835]

>>15494548
>>15494427
You savages need to be civilised by Britain again

[Anonymous No.15497837]

>>15497741
I don't view Spenser as contentiously Irish at all, I am only making use of him to back my original point of view that much of the writing labeled as "Anglo-Irish" is best described as British literature rather than Irish. His experience in Ireland had a huge impact on the Faerie Queene, but I would never call him an Irish writer. But he definitely belonged in the same settler class as Swift, Wilde, etc.

Another analogy. Kipling was deeply influenced by his time in India. He was even born and raised there. But you would be out of your mind to call him Indian.

Because of Ireland being a British colony for so long, I can't help but think of the colonists / ruling class as being British rather than Irish even if they were sympathetic and advocated for their cause as mentioned here >>15497717 and there >>15497502

[Anonymous No.15497850]

>>15497770
I'm just applying anon's crazy idea that you have to be proCatholic to be Irish. Lots of Irish freedom fighters were Protestant, but he's not letting that bother his definition of race. For most people the fact he was born in Ireland and lived there most of his life would be enough to consider him Irish. Burke was a Whig, and while he disagreed with his own party as much as the Tories did, he's only considered a founder of modern conservativism because the Tories changed tack after his influence not because he was one.

[Anonymous No.15497856]

>>15497837
>Because of Ireland being a British colony for so long, I can't help but think of the colonists / ruling class as being British rather than Irish even if they were sympathetic and advocated for their cause as mentioned here >>15497717 and there >>15497502
Do you consider Thomas Paine and Jefferson to be British?

[Anonymous No.15497864]

>>15497835
>Please come aboard a sinking ship
Nah I'm alright Jack

[Anonymous No.15497874]

>>15497856
They're 100% British.

[Anonymous No.15497882]

>>15497837
>But you would be out of your mind to call him Indian.
Generally anyone who writes about the redcoats and the great game being a good thing are not considered sympathetic to Asia, but to European powers. The same thing can't be said of Burke and Swift's view of Ireland. Wilde is also not sympathetic to British rule: his mother was an ultranationalist who told him to stand trial or she would cease to consider him Irish, while all his British friends told him to go to France.

[Anonymous No.15497889]

>>15497874
At least you're consistently at odds with the general mode of thought.

[Anonymous No.15497898]

>>15497856
Thomas Paine, yes. Jefferson, no.

But full-blown American literature doesn't really start wheeling and dealing until about the 1840's. You can see hints of it in Jefferson and Franklin, even sometimes in Anne Bradstreet and the Puritans. But the unique style isn't really born until Emerson, Whitman, Poe, etc. Before them, American literature wasn't much distinguishable from British literature.

I might be willing to compromise on the Anglo-Irish literature question if one looks at it as a bridge to the real deal for Ireland.

[Anonymous No.15497909]

>>15497898
Emerson's more easily related to Nietzsche rather than the others. What nationality are you giving Nietzsche?

[Anonymous No.15499127]

>>15494221

[Anonymous No.15499500]

>>15495756
what chance are for gaelic language revivalism? Once Quebec stopped being religious the become more national and forced Canada guvernment to accept French as second official language. Is there similar chance for Ireland or will they just stay a tax heaven for USA computer corporation and guvernment who wants to become a new Pakistan.

[Anonymous No.15499620]

>>15499500
Pretty slim for it becoming a primary tongue - given that major advantage of learning a language is to communicate with new people and Gaelic hasn't been modernized enough by common use.

But there is also the Gaeltacth around a large part of the West-Coast of Ireland - and Irish is the first language there. It strikes a good balance. When my Dublin friends tried out their shit grasp of Irish, the pintmen were kind enough to hear them out and help out with a few words.

I don't really know what you mean by the idea that Irish government want to be a new Pakistan. Its interests are more closely aligned with the EU bloc, and if you're talking about immigration, I've got a soft spot for both India and Pakistan.

[Anonymous No.15499648]

The Táin is often called the Irish Iliad

[Anonymous No.15500047]

>>15497156
The Anglo- Irish are a lost people. Too English for Ireland and too Irish for England. When the Irish state was founded some Anglo Irish emigrated to England. They were called Paddys and drunks and were utterly BTFO. They came back and settled down and accepted that Ireland was their home and that they were Irish.

[Anonymous No.15500055]

>>15497219
Imagine thinking Wilde was British. He came from the tiny Irish upper middle class and was fully Irish.

[Anonymous No.15500063]

>>15496853
>>15496926
thnks goys

[Anonymous No.15500067]

As far as Flann O'Brien goes, don't stop with At Swim-Two-Birds. The Third Policeman and The Poor Mouth are some of the funniest novels I've read.

[Anonymous No.15500112]

>>15497459
WE WUZ THE IRISH WRITERS 'N SHIIIEEETTT

[Anonymous No.15500136]

>>15497511
Was St. Patrick a Roman?

[Anonymous No.15500149]

>>15497837
So was George Washington English and not American?

[Anonymous No.15500163]

>>15497874
Why? I think that if a group of people live in place for long enough then they get a connection to the land they are living on, and slowly lose their connection with the old land. It makes sense if you think about it.

[Anonymous No.15500178]

>>15497874
Is Shakespeare French and Tolkein German and Burgess Irish?

[Anonymous No.15500226]

Am I a mega-brainlet or does anyone else here just thing Joyce is overly masturbatory and complex just for the sake of complexity?
Honestly couldn’t stand it and struggled to finish it.

[Anonymous No.15500232]

>>15500226
And by “it” I mean Ulysses, of course.

[Anonymous No.15500267]

>>15500226
I think we collectively decided that Joyce's idea of literature was hilarious, but a one time hoot, and after Finnegan's Wake the joke was over

[Anonymous No.15500393]

>>15499620
>When my Dublin friends tried out their shit grasp of Irish, the pintmen were kind enough to hear them out and help out with a few words.
I heard the same stories from my grandparents' lot, it's nice in a way to know some things haven't changed.

[Anonymous No.15500403]

>>15496592
He did mention him, brother

[Anonymous No.15500405]

>>15500267
You couldn't best the Wake my man, Joyce took it as far as it could go with his filing cabinet.

[Anonymous No.15500691]

>>15494305

[Anonymous No.15500779]

>>15500691
>Re Joyce
best title for secondary literature ever

[Anonymous No.15501352]

>>15495814
>there's no diligence in proper design and layout so it
Isn't that all medieval cities? Grid cities only started happening with Philadelphia.

[Anonymous No.15501391]

>>15497837
>can't help but think of the colonists / ruling class as being British rather than Irish even if they were sympathetic and advocated for their cause
Wait, so all the Irish speaking Earls who lost their titles and died in Spain, France, or the West Indies after the British arrested and exiled them were secretly British?

[Anonymous No.15501417]

>>15501391
That anon from last night received an American education. You shouldn't expect him to know about Roundheads, or Queen Elizabeth I's meeting Queen Grace, or the Flight of the Earls, or Cromwell or anything really. He thought writers who were still writing past the Free State and the creation of the Republic were still British.