/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15624922]

Why is this a dystopia?

[Anonymous No.15624966]

It's complicated.

[Butterfly is a Nigger !!T2UdrWkLSWB No.15624981]

>>15624922
Their society is artificially kept in stasis by leaders who know that it's wrong and anyone who disagrees with it is exiled to penal colonies.

[Anonymous No.15624994]

>>15624922
It's not. It's a utopia.
>>15624966
Lmao not really.
>>15624981
A stable, well-structured, effective government, yes. You can't ensure stability and order without some sacrifices, obviously.
>anyone who disagrees with it is exiled to penal colonies
As they should. Either contribute to society or gtfo.

[Butterfly is a Nigger !!T2UdrWkLSWB No.15625045]

>>15624994
The inability to overthrow or escape the regime is generally a characteristic of dystopias. You're really just trying to justify the dystopia's policies rather than arguing that it's not a dystopia.

[Anonymous No.15625075]

>>15625045
It's very clearly a utopia though. If you look at how people have imagined utopia to be like, from Plato to More, to all kinds of adventists in smaller christian sects, you'll see that they very closely coincide with Huxley's vision in the book.
Huxley called it a dystopia himself as a gimmick, to confuse and intrigue people. There's really nothing to it.

[Butterfly is a Nigger !!T2UdrWkLSWB No.15625092]

>>15625075
I don't care who you think agrees with you, when you actually examine the policies of this society as written in the book it is dystopian.

[Anonymous No.15625107]

>>15625045
>>15625092
>The inability to overthrow or escape the regime is generally a characteristic of dystopias
Of course they can overthrow the regime if enough people willed it. But there's no reason to because it's an utopia: the regime is already great.

[Anonymous No.15625127]

>>15625107
>Of course 1984 isn't a dystopia because they could overthrow the regime if they wanted to but there's no reason to because it's a utopia: the regime is already great
Retard-tier logic

[Anonymous No.15625136]

>>15625075
You are forced to participate in state mandated orgies while under the influence of mind altering drugs. This is not for procreation purposes because sex is completely decoupled from procreation. It's an indefensible and puzzling mandate but the law is the law.

How the fuck is that a utopia?

[Anonymous No.15625139]

>>15625045
well...not only can you escape you are made to do so if you disagree with the government.

[Butterfly is a Nigger !!T2UdrWkLSWB No.15625151]

>>15625139
Penal colonies are not an "escape". They're exiled to disparate islands that we know nothing about in a world that they have no hope of changing.

[Anonymous No.15625155]

>>15625107
But people can't overthrow it. The free thinkers get shipped off to an island. It is a utopia for all the brainwashed people however, because they're perfectly happy and have no reason to complain, no reason to revolt, but there is some unhappiness in those who don't accept it.

[Anonymous No.15625163]

>>15625127
If 1984 is a dystopia, it's because people couldn't overthrow the regime if they wanted to (they could). I'm saying that this point is not true and not even a characteristic of dystopias.
>>15625136
>You are forced to participate in state mandated orgies while under the influence of mind altering drugs.
Based!

[Anonymous No.15625168]

>>15625136
>forced to have sex with a bunch of hot people while high as fuck with the most powerful, greatest drug that has ever existed without any kind of consequences
Sign me the fuck up to this """dystopia"""

[Anonymous No.15625171]

ORGY PORGY!

[Anonymous No.15625172]

>>15624981
I forgot but was there even any progression of technology in that world or was it not mentioned?

[Anonymous No.15625174]

>>15625163
>it's because people
it's not because people*

[Anonymous No.15625183]

>>15625151
I'm not so certain, it honestly seemed like the world controller implied these places weren't bad. I think they get all their needs tended to and are just allowed to live out their life in the best way they possibly can, albeit they still likely wouldn't be allowed to procreate or do other things considered too unacceptable. So still, you can't escape it entirely, but its not exactly awful.

[Anonymous No.15625197]

>>15625168
>>15625163
Bernard pls go

[Butterfly is a Nigger !!T2UdrWkLSWB No.15625202]

>>15625155
They're not even brainwashed, they're genetically created to support the regime. What's dystopian about it is that there are people who exist who are not like this.

>>15625163
If neither 1984 nor Brave New World are dystopias then what is and why?

>>15625172
No the world leader Olympus Mons guy specifically says they do not advance technology in order to avoid unnecessary disturbances to society.

>>15625183
Why would we believe him though? He's leads a society that he keeps pacified while knowing that there are alternatives, he's clearly willing to do or say whatever he needs to in order to keep the train on the tracks. For all we know he sent the defective guy to a gas chamber

[Anonymous No.15625212]

>>15625202
>If neither 1984 nor Brave New World are dystopias then what is and why?
The world we currently live in. Way too unstable.A lot of political rivalry going on. Tumultous.

[Anonymous No.15625222]

>>15625202
>No the world leader Olympus Mons guy specifically says they do not advance technology in order to avoid unnecessary disturbances to society.
Then this society is a failure and a dead end. Oh, and thank you for answering anon.

[Butterfly is a Nigger !!T2UdrWkLSWB No.15625238]

>>15625212
Why don't you just come to my house so I can chain you to the radiator in my basement? I'll feed you plenty of protein and you won't have a worry in the world >;^)

>>15625222
Well yeah that's the point, it's a complete stasis of feels>reals, only a coomer masochist could enjoy it

[Anonymous No.15625254]

>>15625238
>Comparing the commodities of BNW and soma with getting chained to a radiator
The people who don't like this future are just sour grapes faggots.

[Anonymous No.15625269]

>>15624922
It's only a dystopia for three characters, Marx, Watson, and John.

For Marx, he lives his life on hard mode. He is incapable of meeting the expectations of his peers, and thus feels alienated and unable to enjoy life the same as everybody else.

In Watson's case, he lives life on easy mode. Extremely handsome and clever, he is a top civilian. But he is capable of more, and society handicaps him from reaching his true potential. He is thus forced to degrade himself to be like everyone else.

John of course represents us, if tomorrow we were to wake up in this world. A sudden whiplash that many (John included) are not able to handle.

[Anonymous No.15625272]

>>15625254
Any society that decide technological progress is not desirable is a dead society. Either by other societies or the forces of nature.
Anyone who does not want to live in such a place is simply rational.

[Anonymous No.15625274]

>>15625254
This.
>>15625238
Cope.
>>15625222
Technology cannot develop indefinitely without society collapsing. Stopping technological development while it's still possible is exactly what an utopia would do. Bloat = die. BNW kept it smart and simple.

[Anonymous No.15625284]

>>15625272
>Any society that decide technological progress is not desirable is a dead society
Why? Other societies are non-existent, the forces of nature they can easily overcome.

[Anonymous No.15625283]

>>15625274
>Technology cannot develop indefinitely without society collapsing
You have no real world basis for this, but we do have examples of societies collapsing in history without technological advancements.

[Anonymous No.15625297]

>>15624922
Here are your options:

1. It's both, because utopias and dystopias are the same.

2. It's a dystopia, becuase humanity cannot create a utopia which is suitable for everyone (in BNW there are clearly marginalized individuals who are discontent with the state of the world, despite the government's best effort to stop the existence of dissatisfaction.)

3. It's a utopia because it fits my personal view of a utopia and I am right.

(Without being sarcastic, you can justify that it's a utopia because most humans naturally value stability; therefore, the actions of the authority are justified and correct because they appease the overwhelming majority.)

4. It's neither, because dystopia and utopia are absolutes (everything is perfect vs. everything is wrong), and almost all hypothetical "dystopias" have some redeeming qualities, just as hypothetical "utopias" have flaws.

Did I miss any?

[Anonymous No.15625299]

>>15625284
>thinks forces of nature are limited only on the planet.
It's a dead end.

[Anonymous No.15625302]

>>15625284
>They can easily overcome.
unless they live in a reality different from ours where it's every aspect i alien to us they are just a big asteroid away form demise and if that never comes to pass it's only a matter of time until the sun engulfs them.

[Anonymous No.15625312]

>>15624922
It's a coomtopia.
It's also a dystopia only because you've been conditioned to think that all humans are equal, democracy is the best political system, free will is a given, etc...
If you cast these assumptions aside, the society described in the book makes a lot of sense. Why wouldn't you want a society that has maximized production and minimized conflict?
If the cost of such a society is brainwashing, ask yourself, is self-awareness, free will, sensitivity, all that crap, really that enjoyable?

[Anonymous No.15625314]

>>15625299
>>15625302
I think you're right.
So, let's say that the vast majority of the global population is still brain dead coomer zombies, but a small minority of people is still working towards populating space with coomer brain dead zombies or mind-uploading to a dimension of brain dead coomer zombies, is this society now a based utopia, or a BASED utopia?

[Anonymous No.15625322]

>>15625283
>>15625274
Anti technology fags literally want us to live in mud huts, you guys are spiritual niggers. Whites (atheist and protestant) and Asians are the only races that can handle next gen civilizations

[Anonymous No.15625337]

>>15625312
Maximizing production is gay. Also, there's a huge difference between people being born unequal due to happenstance and people being engineered to be unequal to fill a niche which amounts to little more than "slave." One is an unfortunate accident, the other is a monstrosity.

[Anonymous No.15625338]

>>15625202
>Why would we believe him though?
Why would you not? He had no reason to lie to Bernard or Helmholtz, the entire reason he took them into his office to talk was so he could explain the situation and that he was actually like them. He could've just as easily had them dragged off to the gas chamber or the "ministry of love" to fix them.

[Anonymous No.15625340]

>>15625322
I personally want people to live in comfortable structures which are built from readily available materials.

[Anonymous No.15625345]

>>15625312
By that logic, you've been conditioned to think conflict is bad and production is good. We're all products of our conditioning, huh?

[Anonymous No.15625357]

>>15625314
So long as there aren't ayys to fight I guess so. It would still disturb me on some level though.

[Anonymous No.15625379]

>>15625202
>They're not even brainwashed, they're genetically created to support the regime.
I thought it was a combination of both, iirc Bernard only broke out because he was responsible for the sleep hypnosis shit, so he could realise how much of his thoughts weren't his own.

It is still dystopian because there are people who hate it and have no option to change it. A clumsy allegory is if you see it as a really really nice prison, most people like it because they could have everything they could ever want, but some people want out no matter what, because they value freedom over happiness, but they're not allowed.

[Anonymous No.15626044]

>>15625337
>Also, there's a huge difference between people being born unequal due to happenstance and people being engineered to be unequal to fill a niche which amounts to little more than "slave." One is an unfortunate accident, the other is a monstrosity.
I would argue that if you need cheap (free) labor to run your society, deliberately engineering and mass-producing slaves is much more humane than going around and enslaving people.
If you engineer them, you can make sure that they're purpose-built to be slaves, and to them it's not slavery, it's who they are, it's what they do:
>Only an Epsilon can be expected to make Epsilon sacrifices, for the good reason that for him they aren’t sacrifices; they’re the line of least resistance. His conditioning has laid down rails along which he’s got to run. He can’t help himself; he’s foredoomed.
And:
>“Awful? They don’t find it so. On the contrary, they like it. It’s light, it’s childishly simple. No strain on the mind or the muscles. Seven and a half hours of mild, unexhausting labour, and then the soma ration and games and unrestricted copulation and the feelies. What more can they ask for?
On the other hand:
>An Alpha-decanted, Alpha-conditioned man would go mad if he had to do Epsilon Semi-Moron work—go mad, or start smashing things up. Alphas can be completely socialized—but only on condition that you make them do Alpha work.
Even without deliberately engineering humans, if you created a purely meritocratic system, you'd still end up with castes. Not everyone has the mental capacity to become a rocket scientist, no matter how much money you throw at their education.
Engineering humans to be dumb or smart just makes the whole sorting process much more efficient, since you already know the result in advance, but even without forcing your hand, the differences are still there. Might as well take advantage of them, instead of pretending they don't exist, and throwing resources where they won't do any good.

>>15625345
>By that logic, you've been conditioned to think conflict is bad and production is good. We're all products of our conditioning, huh?
If human beings thought that killing each other and starving to death is good they would've gone extinct long ago, a certain amount of cooperation is instinctual because it's absolutely necessary for survival.

[Anonymous No.15626229]

>>15625379
>there are people who hate it and have no option to change it
It would be pointless to try and change it, because there's nothing to change. The society isn't broken, rather, it's pure, everyone is docile, nothing changes. It's pure decadence, it's like a ball that has rolled down a hill and has finally stopped, it no longer has any energy to go anywhere, it can only stay where it is.
It's the end of humanity, I guess you could say a "spiritual" death, rather than a "physical" one. A return to the most base instinct of childhood. At one point Bernard is even told to act more infantile. And I'm sure any intelligent person has wished they could be stupid but happy more than once. Ignorance is bliss. If you don't know, or can't understand or realize, that you're being exploited, or that your caretakers deliberately stunted your growth, you don't suffer.

>they value freedom over happiness, but they're not allowed.
They are allowed, just not in the utopian society:
>“One would think he was going to have his throat cut,” said the Controller, as the door closed. “Whereas, if he had the smallest sense, he’d understand that his punishment is really a reward. He’s being sent to an island. That’s to say, he’s being sent to a place where he’ll meet the most interesting set of men and women to be found anywhere in the world. All the people who, for one reason or another, have got too self-consciously individual to fit into community-life. All the people who aren’t satisfied with orthodoxy, who’ve got independent ideas of their own. Every one, in a word, who’s any one. I almost envy you, Mr. Watson.”
In the end, everyone wins: the lobotomized lower chastes and hedonists enjoy the endless supply of pleasure, while the moralfagging stoics get exiled to islands, and can enjoy the company of like-minded individuals.

[Anonymous No.15626387]

>>15624922
They should have created humans that were intelligent but at the same time docile and servile, and leaders should be selected from a diferent, special batch. Them, their society would be better.

[Anonymous No.15626394]

>>15626387
*Then

[Anonymous No.15626411]

>>15625107
most retarded post I've seen on this board in a long time, congrats on the excellent bait

[Anonymous No.15626422]

>>15625269
just gonna (You) this because it answers OPs question most eloquently

[Anonymous No.15626441]

>>15624966
True

[Anonymous No.15626841]

>>15624922
it depends if you're a deontologist or a consequentialist

[Anonymous No.15626848]

because smoking causes you to spend years with bad lungs, and it doesn't just kill you immediately. its just about passivity being pernicious

[Anonymous No.15626868]

>>15624922
I asked myself the same question when I read it.

[Anonymous No.15626888]

>>15624922
Cause it's boring

[Anonymous No.15627326]

>>15624922
It's not a dystopia.
It's not even bad.
John was just butthurt cause he wasn't allowed to mourn his mother's death or be exclusive with his waifu, between other things he thought that suffering had intrinsic value, an opinion which to be honest is simply that, an opinion, and born from culture above anything else
In short, he had expectations which the BNW did not meet.
The only part that's messed up are the clones, I guess that for someone who is born in a more natural human setting clones would be something that would strike an uncanny valley type of fear

[Anonymous No.15627354]

>>15627326
What about the fact that there is a clearly defined elite and underclass? All humans are manufactured so that the lower classes are stupid and docile for dumb labor while the higher classes capable of greater thought are kept complecent with drugs and recreational distractions.

The entire government is structured in a way to ensure maximum complacency in the population it rules over with segregated caste systems.

If its not dystopian, what is it?

[Anonymous No.15627380]

>>15627354
All societies have clearly defined elite and underclass, which are based on genetic potential subconciously and ultraconciously based on societal myths and learned helplessness. If anything BNW is kinder because it can control who goes to what. You don't get the muddy gray of "mutation causes kid born to stupid prole family to be very smart, is unable to climb socially due to clash of stupid culture and social expectations." And what else are the higher classes supposed to do? BNW says it itself, you cannot have a society of only alphas, they don't get along. Alphas need inferiors to lead or nothing gets done.

[Anonymous No.15627386]

>>15624922
Because Cucksley, like the majority of westerners are made to pursue "meaning" and other non-scientific, spooky nonsense due to implicit Christfag moralfaggotry. Free drugs that make you coom all the time is the peak of human existence.

[Anonymous No.15627408]

>>15627354
Look at it this way:
Everyone in this society is happy doing what they do
They all have a purpose to fulfill
Nobody is left to the chaos of freedom and allowed to do reckless stuff, today this world is quite shite, people who try to live with pleasure are actually quite depressed and drown themselves with beer or drugs that eventually ruin their bodies, causing more pain
in the BNW society, if there's depression or anger you can always just take soma
A guy like Marx probably got the short stick of the end, yet his only complaint was that he wasn't like the others, forcing him to cope by considering himself more of an individual, meaning that he would've been just fine if somebody hadn't put alcohol in his embryo-pot or whatever it was called
They are lead to believe that what they are doing is important and that they could not be doing anything else, and they are conditioned to do it


This is probably akin to a monk who lives an extremely ascetic life: you can say that they live like shit, but in all honesty, in their own minds they likely live in joy belieivng they are following God or whatever

It's an Utopia where someone (or three people) still manages to be disgruntled if it's anything at all

[Anonymous No.15627422]

>>15627408
I'll just say, that if you think that freedom, for whatever reason has instrinsic value you will find the BNW to be abhorrent
If you don't then the BNW is probably the best thing humanity can aim for

[Anonymous No.15627423]

>>15625136
>How the fuck is that a utopia?
how the fuck it is not?

[Anonymous No.15627426]

>>15627380
You didnt address the point that the upperclass must be kept complecent with drugs, sex and games.
Also another theme in the book is that the character Watson must habitually underacheive in order to stay compliant to the standards of his caste, something he dislikes, where marx lives as an underacheiver within his caste. They are both unhappy, perhaps as much as the savage.

[Anonymous No.15627451]

>>15627426
>underacheive
Restraint is necessary in any community if you wish to live in peace.

[Anonymous No.15627479]

>>15624922
because muh freedoms
I would gladly trade my freedom of speech (implying I have any in this society) for a comfy life

[Anonymous No.15627480]

>>15627426
Yes, but I mean again, what should the upperclass be doing instead? In terms of Watson I feel that if anything, he could be an analogy for our own world. It's a dystopia for him because he is so great that he feels the need to be the top of society, to be its ruler. There is nothing technically wrong with his life just the discontent that he is not being appreciated enough. Such things are common with rulers in our own life.

[Anonymous No.15627555]

>>15627480
>what should the upperclass be doing instead?
They are incapable of dissent, and in demonstration with the case of Watson, are incapable of following any passions. Theyve been stripped of the extremes of their emotions, and are blunted by joy. John is the only character who is capable of experiencing love or hate. Huxely painted the civilized people with many dehumanizing traits, including that of having been manufactured, and in effect, souless. This is juxtaposed with the irony that they refer to john as the savage.

[Anonymous No.15627585]

>>15627479
Wouldn’t you (or somebody else) eventually feel empty though?

[Anonymous No.15627592]

>>15627585
if I had something else to do probably not

[Anonymous No.15627599]

ive said it in other threads, ill say it again. it is a dystopia not because its actually logically bad, but it is fundamentally against the human spirit. there isnt REALLY anything wrong with that society technically, but it doesnt resonate with us or at least me. there is no reason for this except our irrationality, but that irrationality is a special core thing in mankind. the idea of losing that is sad. if i was taking soma, i wouldnt mind it, but from where i am now, i wouldnt take soma, because im stupid and i like it that way.

also i havent really read the book so i dont know.

[Anonymous No.15627601]

>>15627592
Nah the saddest people in the world are those who have been given everything they ever wanted. Celeberities and liberal elites miserable people.

[Anonymous No.15627604]

>>15627601
That's literally just a lie they tell wagecucks so they don't kill themselves or start an uprising.

[Anonymous No.15627646]

>>15627604
Lmao nah, wage cucks might be miserable but theyre miserable for objective reasons like debt or hardship. The human psychy evolved to handle those things and persevere through them, theyll still reproduce and tell stories of their struggles like they were war heros.

[Anonymous No.15627711]

>>15627646
All elaborates copes, the human psyche evolved to nothing but the conservation of energy and the maximization of pleasures.

[Anonymous No.15627766]

>>15627711
Oh look a nihilist. Opinion discarded.

[Anonymous No.15627772]

>>15627599
>also i havent really read the book so i dont know.
based and /lit/pilled

[Anonymous No.15627773]

>>15627766
Checked but probably more accurately a headonist. Still just as useless.

[Anonymous No.15628006]

What in God's name is wrong with this board? What sort of spiritually degraded troglodyte could read BNW and come away thinking that the society it describes is desirable?

[Anonymous No.15628065]

>>15628006
Nobody actually believes that anon, theyre just contrarians arguing because theyre bored.

[Anonymous No.15628310]

>>15625269
Good post.

[Anonymous No.15628324]

>>15628006
incels unironically

[Anonymous No.15628426]

>>15626229
>If you don't know, or can't understand or realize, that you're being exploited, or that your caretakers deliberately stunted your growth, you don't suffer.
I suppose you're right, this isn't really a dystopia. If I said that They're suffering but they just aren't able to see that it'd be more me trying to project my own ideology onto them. It weirdly enough, however, makes me think about 1984, I remember reading that before moving on to BNW, I'm glad I did because I always thought the ending was weirdly happy, Winston no longer knows about the injustice because he's brainwashed, he's no longer suffering and will die happy knowing he served Big Brother. In that sense couldn't you argue 1984 isn't a dystopia if the majority aren't suffering, and those who are get 'fixed'?

>And I'm sure any intelligent person has wished they could be stupid but happy more than once.
Despite what I said earlier about thinking this is a dystopia, I actually sided with the world controller and would like to live in this world as one of the clones, eternal happiness at the cost of intellect doesn't seem so bad. Though I do think this is and edgy point, I see so many
>tfw too intelligent
posts from people who are likely brainlets
larping.

[Anonymous No.15628429]

>>15628065
>>15628006
Imagine falling for such a dumb gimmick.You truly have to be low IQ to blindly accept that a world that is almost word-for-word the same as the worlds described in the most popular works about utopia is actually a dystopia because the author wants you to think that way. Truly indicative of inability to think critically and evaluate what you see instead of blindly relying on the judgement of the author.
The burden on proof is on the author to show why pretty much the same world as was described as utopia by Plato, Thomas More, Campanella and dozens of other people is actually a dystopia.
The emotional dysfunction of the main characters in BNW is not an argument. Obviously it's impossible to make literally everyone in the utopia perfectly content and happy: the point is that they're as content and as happy as they could be. Some people are just naturally dysfunctional, antisocial, genetic freaks, and the government of BNW uses science to ensure that these cases are as rare as possible and that he society is as cohesive, as functional as possible.
Also, your immediate dismissal of the mere notion that the world in BNW could be anything but the most horrific dystopia that we should avoid at all costs demonstrates that you are incapable of articulating why you think so and that you've fallen for the memes.

[Anonymous No.15628459]

Also the world in 1984, in contrast to BNW, IS a dystopia but not for the reasons commonly ascribed. The reason why the world is dysfunctional is because a system of government was instituted in a climate where such a system is not appropriate and can be anything but dysfunctional.
The regular 10 minute hate screenings are only needed because without them society would be much more likely to rebel. If in equillibrium the society is likely to rebel, that fundamentally means the system is dysfunctional and that there's a lot of friction going on. BNW has no need for such forced manifestations of intense negative emotion towards some political opponent, they don't need to be reminded of the constant danger to their order (the logic in 1984 goes that sure this system might be unstable, but the alternative (goldstein) is much much worse, so you better be happy with what you have) because people in the society are already content, the system is functional and does not present friction.
Another proof of dysfunction of oceania in 1984 as opposed to BNW is the constant lying. In BNW there's literally no need for lies because society is content. You already saw the main character trying to expose the truth to others and nobody cares because they're happy. Why should they care?
In contrast, in 1984 exposing the truth could be deadly. Everybody lives in fear.

[Anonymous No.15628550]

>>15628429
>>15628459
>>15628426

[Anonymous No.15628653]

>>15628459
So in BNW, the population are kept happy through drug use and sex, in 1984 the population are kept happy through fear and hate, at the end of the day, both of these societies are happy. The primary difference is that 1984 uses negative emotions to keep the population happy. I'm also sure there's a bit at the end when O'Brian lectures Winston about why the system will never collapse, but O'Brian is brainwashed, so maybe he just believes that, though it seems Winston begins to believe it as well.

>In contrast, in 1984 exposing the truth could be deadly.
I thought that was the point of doublethink, exposing the truth wasn't deadly, because if you had a clip saying that Oceania was at war with Eastasia, even though Oceania was at war with Eurasia, they'd simply think that Oceania was always at war with Eastasia, until they saw a TV saying we were at war with Eurasia, of which point, they'd think that they were always at war with Eurasia. They would literally reject the truth and believe whatever agreed with what the party wanted them to believe because their minds have become so fucked. The Society is kept in perfect control by the government and is content with this control.

I still think 1984 is a dystopia because I would find it a lot harder to integrate into a society of hate and suffering, the main difference being that BNW doesn't force anyone to suffer at all, but in 1984 you have to suffer a lot before you can become happy.

[Anonymous No.15628685]

>>15628653
>both of these societies are happy
What evidence do you have that the society in 1984 is happy? Doesn't seem that way to me.

[Anonymous No.15628686]

>>15628429
>I fucking love science

[Anonymous No.15628698]

>>15628653
Im quite confident that this post was written by a high school student

[Anonymous No.15628720]

>>15628429
>The emotional dysfunction of the main characters in BNW is not an argument.
Yes it is. Its not a utopia if people are unhappy now is it?
>Obviously it's impossible to make literally everyone in the utopia
Whys that commrad?

[Anonymous No.15628747]

>>15628685
Because the thought police can find anyone who is discontent and 'fix' them. Been awhile since I read it though so maybe it implied that everyone was unhappy but just couldn't do anything about it

[Anonymous No.15628772]

>>15628720
>Its not a utopia if people are unhappy now is it?
Read what I said. It's impossible to make literally everyone happy. The unhappy characters in the book are an EXTREME minority. This is unavoidable in any society.
>Whys that commrad?
Because humans are flawed and different. Genetic defects occur.

[Anonymous No.15628781]

If you value art that deals with complex and painful emotions, then BNW is a dystopia. Such art is not created in the Brave New World because infinite "happiness" has made it unnecessary. Additionally, said "happiness" has rendered the imaginations of the population sterile and fragile that they can no longer channel strong sentiments or emotions. The key to understanding the novel lies in the Savage and his relationship to Shakespeare.

[Anonymous No.15628783]

>>15628429
A true STEMlord fantasy

[Anonymous No.15628794]

>>15624922
The same people who think it's a utopia would also plug themselves into Robert Nozick's pleasure machine. That would be a utopia by their definition.

[Anonymous No.15628803]

>>15628794
And what definition is that?
I think BNW is an utopia but wouldn't plug myself into the pleasure machine

[Anonymous No.15628806]

>>15628803
BNW is a society taken over by the pleasure machine, brainlet

[Anonymous No.15628810]

>>15628806
No it's not lmao. You're retarded.

[Anonymous No.15628822]

>>15628803
The other guy who replied to you isn't me, but Brave New World is only a utopia if you have pleasure and contentedness as the only goal of one's life, in which case the pleasure machine would fulfil such a goal. You might say you also value reality, but ask yourself why? Pleasure is the same whether you are in reality or virtual reality. If there is no God, and there is nothing but the material world, and human life is ultimately absurd, what's the difference?

[Anonymous No.15628828]

>>15625274
Ironic you would post Ted. BNW inspired ISAIF. Ted's fear was that people would become soulless bugmen like the people in the book

[Anonymous No.15628877]

Anyone who thinks BNW is a utopia should read The Ones who walk away from Omelas
http://sites.asiasociety.org/asia21summit/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/3.-Le-Guin-Ursula-The-Ones-Who-Walk-Away-From-Omelas.pdf

[Anonymous No.15629009]

>>15624922
>>15628429
>Also, your immediate dismissal of the mere notion that the world in BNW could be anything but the most horrific dystopia that we should avoid at all costs demonstrates that you are incapable of articulating why you think so and that you've fallen for the memes.
It's completely absent of wisdom and virtue, and so cannot be a utopia, as a utopia is a perfect world and a perfect world cannot lack wisdom and virtue, both of which are important qualities every human being should pursue.

[Anonymous No.15629018]

>>15628810
Lmao did you even read it?

[Anonymous No.15629028]

>>15624994
found the bootlicker

[Anonymous No.15629048]

Oh look it's this thread again

[Anonymous No.15629120]

>>15624922
Because it is, you fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.15629133]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jMOfR3WXP4&t=141s

[Anonymous No.15629195]

>>15628810
Their whole society is a "pleasure machine" where you can do nothing but be blissfully useless to your society. Anyone who tries to archive anything and goes against the workings of said machines, anyone who wants more to live than a fuck and a shot of feel good juice, anyone who wants to improve the world, is removed.
Hos the fuck is that an utopia? Do people here actually aspire to be an equivalent of a government mandated heroin addict?

[Anonymous No.15629223]

>>15628806
>>15628810
>>15629018
>>15629028
>>15629048
>>15629120
>>15628698
>>15628686
>>15628550
>>15628324
>>15627423
>>15626411
/lit/ is dead
Please please please at least contribute something, anything, to the discussion at hand, and if not, don't post at all. We can make /lit/ great again if people stop posting like this and make the effort to actually type something of interest. I don't know if you guys are summerfags or crossposters or polfags or what, but either lurk more or go back to whence you came.

[Anonymous No.15629342]

>>15625045
>The inability to overthrow or escape the regime is generally a characteristic of dystopias
80 IQ post

[Anonymous No.15629347]

>>15629223
Bruh it's just BNW

[Anonymous No.15629418]

>>15629223
Or you could just ignore them. The more you hate something, the more it shall be posted

[Anonymous No.15629597]

>>15624922
It's a novel in which the main character kill himself over a stupid infatuation because the society literally does not understand emotions beyond "shoot up drugs and fuck," and it only works in the fictional world because somehow the handful of rulers are always completely benevolent and rational in their rule. It's very simple, anon: are you willing to have your child become genetically engineered to be a drooling retard in exchange for a steady supply of drugs and sex as ordered by a dictator who promises to be benevolent even after he's rendered society incapable of opposing him?

[Anonymous No.15629677]

>>15628426
>In that sense couldn't you argue 1984 isn't a dystopia if the majority aren't suffering, and those who are get 'fixed'?
Exactly. The only objectionable thing about BNW's society is that it requires deliberately engineering the vast majority of people to be able to only feel, and not think. That may seem like a violation of our freedom of self-determination, but I think we're already halfway there.
Maybe we've always been halfway there, I don't think there has ever been a mythical golden age where the average person was a critical thinker and enjoyed intellectual activities. People are definitely reading less books, and I'm sure the average person would rather watch Netflix than go for a walk in the park. Remember that scene where babies are taught to be afraid of books and flowers? Even without the Pavlovian conditioning, we're getting to that point.
Might as well take the soma pill at this point, and stop pretending that BNW's society would be so horrible. Self-awareness, self-determination, freedom of thought are an inconvenience, what advantages do they bring except existential dread? Is being human just suffering, like the Savage thought? Might as well just skip straight to feeling bliss all the time, whether it's pleasure, or inner peace.
Chemical bliss may not be the real thing, but does it make a difference to our brain, especially if it's been damaged during the decanting process? Our bodies are still physical, so why starve the flesh of pleasure, just because we suspect that there may be a metaphysical soul, afterlife, or a judgement, or some other assumption along these lines? We can't prove these things, though, so why bother?

[Anonymous No.15629835]

>>15629597
they are not so much anyone's "child"

[Anonymous No.15629849]

>>15629835
The first generation has to be.

[Anonymous No.15629900]

>>15629849
is the beginning of the castes discussed much? it has been some years since I have read it. but even if it is your dna, if you do not raise them and the world is full of them and you know you will never know which are of your dna, I am not so sure any would care specifically of 'their' child. the connect is certainly less than the baby put for adoption and I would argue less than the sperm donor too

[Anonymous No.15629905]

>>15629677
*punches you in the face*
Don't worry, it's just useless feelings, right Buddhist cuck?

[Anonymous No.15629912]

>>15629905
Don't bully him like that, his life is hard enough as is.

[Anonymous No.15631096]

>>15629677
I think you're right about us always being halfway there, With the invention of films and TV it's a lot easier to consoom trashy media, i.e. Tiger King, My Super sweet 16, Marvel films, etc, etc, but that doesn't mean all films & TV are trashy. I imagine people would have preferred trashy detective novels that don't encourage much intellectual stimulus before TV and Films took over.

Of course In BNW even this trashy media would have to be dummed down, because the society realises that if you get attached to something, you can feel bad at its loss, which is the main reason I'm 50/50 on living in this society. On the one hand it's nice to turn off and to not get attached and to load up on drugs, sports, whatever, just be happy, but on the other hand being bereft of passion seems awful, not being able to feel the highs of accomplishing something because they have removed the lows of failing to do so. We starve our self of pleasure because when we accomplish our goal and it can feel so much sweeter because of the hardship it took to get there.

[Anonymous No.15631671]

>>15624922
Because every utopia is a dystopia retard, which you'd know if you actual read the work called Utopia by More

[Anonymous No.15631738]

>>15631671
>everything good is actually bad