Why do you disagree?

File: 42 KB, 444x444, BE6903AE-81BD-40F8-815D-647EB26791C1-869-000000D9F820CB67.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:28:59 2020 No.16059516 [DELETED]

[Reply] [Original]

Why do you disagree?

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:31:02 2020 No.16059529

use value and exchange value are worthless concepts and any coherent and consistent notion of what they phenomenologically represent is better expressed within the scope of neoclassical economics. as a corollary, LTV is also bulslhit

however dialectical materialism and marxist sociology are bang on

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:33:00 2020 No.16059536 >>16059529 >use value and exchange value are worthless concepts >dialectical materialism is bang on how does this make any sense

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:33:08 2020 No.16059538 >>16059516 don't agree with his use of the n-word (offensive) and contention that some ethnic groups are counter-revolutionary and deserve to disappear. typical 19th century white guy shit, he's simply outdated.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:34:52 2020 No.16059543 >>16059538 I know this is bait, but Marx wasn't racist at all and firmly believed that liberation of the English worker would only come after liberation of the Irish worker; same with the black worker and then white worker in America

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:35:02 2020 No.16059544
File: 11 KB, 250x201, 424tav.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16059529
>use value and exchange value are worthless concepts and any coherent and consistent notion of what they phenomenologically represent is better expressed within the scope of neoclassical economics.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:36:20 2020 No.16059548 >>16059529 Get a load of this retard.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:36:36 2020 No.16059549 >>16059529 Mate you realize LTV and supply & demand are both true right?

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:37:30 2020 No.16059552

not everything comes down to material. giving equal material will not bring happiness. I've seen it first hand. one occasion, I gave a friend my car when I got a new one, did not charge him anything. he still is borderline about hating life and wasting it away in fantasy

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:38:03 2020 No.16059554 >>16059516 Too focused on revolution instead of granting workers the means of production. Distributism does a better job illustrating how the workers can be given the means of production.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:38:04 2020 No.16059555 File: 113 KB, 955x955, 1595547090026.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16059516 Because I can. Fuck marx, fuck communism, fuck antifa, and most of all fuck you for killing off good threads on the board with this piece of dog shit

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:39:01 2020 No.16059563 File: 83 KB, 680x448, 1595490215266.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16059543

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:39:05 2020 No.16059564 >>16059555 WITNESSED

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:40:02 2020 No.16059571 >>16059555 Yeah but WHY? >>16059552 You misunderstood Marx mate

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:41:26 2020 No.16059578

>>16059563
>England, the metropolis of capital, the power which has up to now ruled the world market, is at present the most important country for the workers’ revolution, and moreover the only country in which the material conditions for this revolution have reached a certain degree of maturity. It is consequently the most important object of the International Working Men’s Association to hasten the social revolution in England. The sole means of hastening it is to make Ireland independent. Hence it is the task of the International everywhere to put the conflict between England and Ireland in the foreground, and everywhere to side openly with Ireland. It is the special task of the Central Council in London to make the English workers realise that for them the national emancipation of Ireland is not a question of abstract justice or humanitarian sentiment but the first condition of their own social emancipation.
And yeah Marx called him a jew nigger but that was just him seething about a loan or something

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:42:03 2020 No.16059582 >>16059536 G.A. Cohen bitch >>16059549 yeah but thats what I mean, something like labour as an input into cost and hence supply is more systemically outlined in the neoclassical tradition.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:43:09 2020 No.16059589 >>16059554 Based retard

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:43:57 2020 No.16059592

>>16059571
possibly, i will admit that. wasn't their one proposition that equal access to material will help aid (not being a central cure), but aid people away from persay, misery.
I'm open for conversation. please explain what exactly I misunderstood in terms of this specific subject of the marxist mindset

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:44:01 2020 No.16059593 >>16059552 Read Marx, moron.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:44:17 2020 No.16059595 >>16059554 At best misguided idealist, at worst fed

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:45:22 2020 No.16059602 >>16059592 "Materialism" isn't what you think it is.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:45:57 2020 No.16059608 >>16059554 Marx wrote about how capitalism works, mouthbreather. He didn't write books about how to do a 'revolution'.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:46:26 2020 No.16059612 >>16059602 Or-dialectical materialism

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:47:18 2020 No.16059615 >>16059593 >>16059571 idk I think he's pretty on the ball lads. Marxist eschatology is weak, the project is fundamentally a negative one

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:47:24 2020 No.16059616 >>16059582 The "neoclassical tradition" doesn't even attempt to explain the origin of value.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:47:24 2020 No.16059617 >>16059549 LTV is useless for predicting value

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:48:27 2020 No.16059621 >>16059516 >Read Marx How about Marxists come up with counter-arguments?

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:48:41 2020 No.16059625 >>16059616 you are so stupid it makes me quite angry bro

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:49:00 2020 No.16059626 >>16059615 You've never read Marx, so you have no clue what you're talking about.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:49:24 2020 No.16059630 >>16059621 To...?

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:49:38 2020 No.16059632 >>16059516 1. History has no rules. 2. Economics is not even its most important influence (nation and, arguably, sex are more important). Rationalizing things won't change this fact.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:50:03 2020 No.16059634 >>16059617 Wrong. It has been empirically confirmed.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:50:08 2020 No.16059635 >>16059616 Marginalism? Have you taken an Econ course?

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:50:23 2020 No.16059636 >>16059626 you want to check my bookshelf, asshole?

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:51:04 2020 No.16059640 >>16059625 Dumbfucks like you should simply be euthanized.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:51:16 2020 No.16059642 >>16059630 anything in this thread

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:52:23 2020 No.16059648 >>16059635 Marginalism doesn't explain value, idiot.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:52:28 2020 No.16059649 >>16059602 >>16059612 please expand.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:52:29 2020 No.16059651 >>16059640 i'd get euthanized if i could bitch

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:53:38 2020 No.16059655 >>16059621 We're not even having an argument yet, since you haven't read Marx and are just playfighting irrelevant strawmen of your own invention.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:53:41 2020 No.16059656 >>16059648 'Heh', anon smirked as he put his fingers to the keyboard, ready to fire off yet another intellectual zinger. 'Don't you mean /utility/?' He clicked post.

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:54:08 2020 No.16059657

>>16059632
>1. History has no rules.
Wrong.
>2. Economics is not even its most important influence (nation and, arguably, sex are more important). Rationalizing things won't change this fact.
Lol this is so stupid I'm not even gonna bother addressing it, read a fucking book.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:54:21 2020 No.16059660 >>16059634 By whom and how?

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:54:40 2020 No.16059661 >>16059655 i bet you mumble read marx in your sleep and your cat disdains you

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:55:16 2020 No.16059664 >>16059636 Go ahead. Post a photo of Marx's book on "eschatology". Moron.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:55:31 2020 No.16059666 >>16059648 It literally does

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:55:41 2020 No.16059668
File: 11 KB, 250x250, 15965006911205038397559106034180.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16059516
As a Catholic, I nationally detest his opposition towards religion.

Plus, his focus on materialist economics sounds like the foundation of a faulty state that will collapse by trying to ignore God.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:56:15 2020 No.16059675 >>16059664 >he doesn't realize marxian shit is all about the eschaton brainlet

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:56:22 2020 No.16059677 >>16059664 exactly

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:56:42 2020 No.16059679 >>16059660 http://paulcockshott.co.uk/publication-archive/Talks/politicaleconomy/Brazillecture2.pdf

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:57:45 2020 No.16059686 >>16059679 >Paul Cockshott OH NO HAHAHAHAH OH HAHAHAHA OH MY GOD HAHAHA LMFAO

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:57:52 2020 No.16059687 >>16059657 I've read around 60 books so far this year, in six different languages.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:57:54 2020 No.16059688 >>16059675 t. never read Marx

Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:57:59 2020 No.16059689
File: 41 KB, 720x705, 643502E4-E5D1-4493-BDB0-6325E2246D80-1514-000001E94EF1FA85.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16059649
There are a lot of good articles expanding, I don't want to give you some inaccurate notion of what it is though, it's pretty complicated and I'm by no means an expert.

>>	Anonymous Wed Aug 5 23:59:34 2020 No.16059699 >>16059679 I don't want a virus nigger

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:00:03 2020 No.16059702

The belief in the historically necessary hegelian dialectical aufhebung of 'abstract labour' is not just utopic but incredibly near-sighted today. Rather than some kind of abolition of work, we are much more heading toward new kinds of direct servitude to replace the hated 'abstract labour' under capitalism. The formal freedom of bourgeois society may very well turn out to be a most cherished kind of alienation for our leftists today, when they have to face young girls getting wedded to adult men, women put into subservient positions again (really subservient instead of today's situation), and you are forced to slave away with not even a legally binding collective labour agreement for your new masters.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:00:07 2020 No.16059703 >>16059668 Economics is literally about material. There is no such thing as non-materialistic economics. What Marx understood is that there is more to life than liberal capitalist bugmanship.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:00:27 2020 No.16059707 >>16059516 Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:01:06 2020 No.16059711 File: 486 KB, 1080x1047, SmartSelect_20200802-122726_Instagram.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16059516 Scarcity exists

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:01:29 2020 No.16059714 >>16059707 Yes that's literally what Marx wanted you fucking ape

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:02:56 2020 No.16059718 >>16059714 No he wanted to tax people to pay for big government

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:04:22 2020 No.16059724 >>16059707 No, the sweat of his brow belongs to the factory owner, a portion of which devolves to the foreman. A man can have a droplet of his own sweat, as a treat.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:05:03 2020 No.16059728 >>16059718 Up your troll game, son. This ain't /b/.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:05:35 2020 No.16059731

>>16059689
so from what your saying, materialism does not actually mean physical material. from your picture, does the word material than refer to material (physical things and the production of these things) and the connection of it to the mass; in terms of it's relation to how both interact and shape the perceived reality of the populace?

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:07:40 2020 No.16059740

>>16059718
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Marx wanted to eliminate exchange value tout court. In other words, Marx's vision of socialism included the abolition of money as such. What Marx envisioned has nothing to do with big government: he advocated the abolition of the state.

If you're interested I could link you to relevant passages from Capital Vol. 1 that won't require an extensive study of his work and frame of analysis (which owes a lot to the famously dense Hegel) to understand.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:07:52 2020 No.16059742 >>16059731 Materialism means rejecting identity politics.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:08:40 2020 No.16059747 >>16059703 >What Marx understood is that there is more to life than liberal capitalist bugmanship. So did people like Mussolini and Franco. What made Marx so special?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:09:59 2020 No.16059752 >>16059747 Marx was an economist. Das Kapital is a scientific study of capitalism.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:10:42 2020 No.16059756 >>16059740 Anon the post you replied to is obvious bait, I was getting a quote from Capital(pages 171-172)but then realized this. Applause to the guy for getting an effortpost reply though.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:11:52 2020 No.16059761

>>16059703
>What Marx understood is that there is more to life than liberal capitalist bugmanship.

Is this a troll? Marx's entire shit was based around the workers being supreme min-maxing bugs and overthrowing the government in order to get the value of the last three widgets they produced on their shift. Shocking that history didn't play out that way, I know.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:12:35 2020 No.16059764

>>16059742
>>16059689
I'm hoping this is the same anon. So materialism means rejecting identity politics? So, when the notion of equal access of material to the populace is brought up, what your saying is, that marx was sprouting the idea of equal access of the rejection of identity politics to the mass. is this correct?

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:14:31 2020 No.16059777

>>16059761
>what is alienation

"The theoretical basis of alienation within the capitalist mode of production is that the worker invariably loses the ability to determine life and destiny when deprived of the right to think (conceive) of themselves as the director of their own actions; to determine the character of said actions; to define relationships with other people; and to own those items of value from goods and services, produced by their own labour. Although the worker is an autonomous, self-realized human being, as an economic entity this worker is directed to goals and diverted to activities that are dictated by the bourgeoisie—who own the means of production—in order to extract from the worker the maximum amount of surplus value in the course of business competition among industrialists."

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:15:28 2020 No.16059781 >>16059764 No the idpol reply isn't me, material means material reality? I'm confused what you're confused about.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:16:51 2020 No.16059790 >>16059777 Ironic then that the place where workers lost the ability to determine their life and actions was not the west but in the soviet bloc

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:19:07 2020 No.16059807 >>16059790 Not really. The economy of the USSR was just a totalitarian, centralized implementation of the capitalist mode of production, as defined by Marx.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:19:49 2020 No.16059813

>>16059742
This is not true, or at least not true in the way you think it is.

The very concepts of proletariat and bourgeoisie partake in identity politics. An identity can have a material basis even if that basis is not strictly biological.

There are, of course, certain strands of "identity politics," often peddled by managerial class liberals, that are craven and serve the interests of capital. These are the sorts of people who think that if the gangsters who make up the ruling class reflect the population of the nation in a proportional way (where X capitalist overlords are Black, Y capitalist overlords are Indigenous, etc.) everything will be fine. This brand of identity politics ought to be combatted.

But too many Marxists, and especially younger, extremely online Marxists, have a knee-jerk reaction to the very notion that a person's identity could be the basis for radical political action. It's an attitude that alienates potential comrades and it's based on a misunderstanding of Marxism, which is, partly, a politics of identity (hence the need for workers to envision themselves as belonging to the identity "proletariat").

>>16059756
Haha. I got banned from /pol/ for a bit and was just itching to debate someone.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:20:06 2020 No.16059816 >>16059516 Fascism: Here is a short list of points that make up the meat of the idealogy. Marxism: No, Marx didn't say that! He said this and that but wait here's the context! No wait-ahhhhh!

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:20:09 2020 No.16059818 >>16059756 it was bait, and thank you

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:21:13 2020 No.16059822 >>16059807 Ah, the "true communism has never been tried" approach.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:23:04 2020 No.16059832

>>16059781
so the conversation is disagreements with parts or the whole of the marxist doctrine. this is my original post: >>16059552
I was told here:>>16059602
that materialism is not what I think it means. then I was given this chart: >>16059689
with out being told anything.
what I'd like to know is that if my original notion (post) is a misinterpretation, in terms of the marxist definition of material. what does material mean, in marxist terms? if it does not mean physical material and the elements to produce, distribute, etc. what does it mean then?
hey cutie 3.14, im here trying to learn not argue. >>16059593

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:23:21 2020 No.16059836 >>16059807 Hellooo retard! USSR was socialist and amazing, you swallowed way too porky propaganda.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:23:27 2020 No.16059840 >>16059822 "Communism" isn't a well-defined notion in Marx. It definitely doesn't refer to a totalitarian dictatorship, though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:24:51 2020 No.16059849 >>16059836 He probably a Trotskyist or some kind of revisionist. Hopefully, he will be liquidated.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:24:56 2020 No.16059850 >>16059816 Swap the two and you would be closer to the truth.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:26:08 2020 No.16059857 >>16059832 It just means material, your post is right about what material is but not dialectal materialism, which is what Marx wrote about.>>16059552 is right about what material is but not dialectical materialism, >>16059689

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:29:02 2020 No.16059880
File: 142 KB, 1221x1007, kill yourself.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Reminder that Leftypol has made multiple threads discussing how to raid /lit/
https://bunkerchan.. DOT xyz/leftypol/res/749397.html
https://bunkerchan DOT xyz/leftypol/res/720042.html
They will not rest until this board is turned into /pol/.

Reminder that Leftypol has made multiple threads discussing how to raid /lit/
https://bunkerchan.. DOT xyz/leftypol/res/749397.html
https://bunkerchan DOT xyz/leftypol/res/720042.html
They will not rest until this board is turned into /pol/.

Reminder that Leftypol has made multiple threads discussing how to raid /lit/
https://bunkerchan.. DOT xyz/leftypol/res/749397.html
https://bunkerchan DOT xyz/leftypol/res/720042.html
They will not rest until this board is turned into /pol/.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:29:04 2020 No.16059881

>>16059813
I don't disagree with the spirit of what you are saying, but I disagree that 'proletariat' and 'bourgeoisie" are identities. These categories are, rather, defined purely based on material circumstances (viz., whether you live off paychecks versus passive capital income). What someone "self-identifies as" is wholly irrelevant to the analysis.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:29:09 2020 No.16059883

>>16059777
>when deprived of the right to think (conceive) of themselves as the director of their own actions

How exactly does that happen? Has he empirically proven that the workers stop conceiving themselves as that?
You'd need a big sociological and psychological study in order to prove something as vague as that.

My sister is a worker at a big multinational company, yet she enjoys it and I don't think she has stopped to conceive of herself as director of her own actions.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:30:15 2020 No.16059891 >>16059752 >scientific Lol. People actually believe that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:30:59 2020 No.16059895 >>16059880 I mean we're(I'm not even from leftypol)not really raiding just talking about Marx and listening to arguments against him.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:31:53 2020 No.16059901 >>16059883 In capitalism every worker has the freedom to do whatever they want, including raising capital and starting a business. Marx wrote a lot of fun shit, but it's fundamentally flawed.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:32:45 2020 No.16059908 >>16059883 He's referring to what was lost among commoners in the transition to the industrial economy, in which their once coherent, meaningful work was replaced by mechanistic, isolated tasks like putting tops on bottoms.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:32:56 2020 No.16059910
File: 3 KB, 403x46, 1596482486392.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16059895
They literally admit to planing attacks on us in those threads. Every second of every day we have multiple Marxist 0 effort threads where no books are discussed. This thread literally looks ripped straight from /pol/.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:35:58 2020 No.16059931 >>16059910 We're discussing Marx's works, some of which have even been quoted.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:36:59 2020 No.16059938 >>16059901 Read Marx until you understand how retarded this statement was.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:37:31 2020 No.16059939

>>16059832
Hey, friend. I'm a drunk grad student. I'll take a crack at it, and I'll try to keep it jargon free.

Materialism in philosophy (not just Marxism) indicates the belief that all reality is or is the result of material forces. Idealism, on the other hand, tends to indicate the belief that facets of reality are subordinate to spiritual, supernatural, or purely ideational forces. Every religion, from a philosophical point of view, is Idealist, for example.

This is a debate that has been waged in philosophy since the pre-Socratics.

Marx's materialism means, more or less, that human beings are part of a dense web of interconnected material forces, ranging from property laws erecting walls at national boundaries to hurricanes delaying maritime trade, and there is no God who's going to help anyone out. Thus, for a human being to be free, he or she must concentrate on material forces as opposed to spiritual ones (this is partly way people call Marx's dialectical materialism Hegel turned on his head -- Hegel beloved history was driven forward by an Absolute Spirit, whereas Marx holds that history is driven by purely material conditions, including ruler-ruled relations, technological advancements, and so on). I'm using the word "forces" because materialism, for Marx, encompasses an incredibly diverse array of things, including non-physical entities like ideology, which nevertheless has a material basis.

To take the example of your friend, the car didn't and couldn't produce anything like the joy of emancipation because it didn't alter your friend's material conditions in any meaningful way. For Marx, nothing short of complete freedom from need can produce liberation.

I hope this is helpful!

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:38:10 2020 No.16059942 >>16059931 >quoting when Marx called someone a jewish nigger is now /lit/ woah, I'm convinced this is a true /lit/ thread and not obvious leftypol faggotry

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:38:55 2020 No.16059946

>>16059857
so, I just did some quick reading about dialectal materialism. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am. It seems that dialectal materialism Is the idea that everything (thoughts, words, actions, relationships, etc.) is based off of the material world. As if the material world came first, then came everything else. is this correct or no?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:39:46 2020 No.16059952 >>16059942 Ok then sage and piss off

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:40:58 2020 No.16059970 >>16059942 /lit/ has always been a Marxist board, zoomer. You illiterate election tourists are the newfags.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:41:21 2020 No.16059973 >>16059939 but the guy was freed from his need for a car and it didnt help him at all. so why would being free from other or all needs help

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:42:58 2020 No.16059992 >>16059880 Yeah, that's been going on for more than a year now. This board has turned into shit. I am seriously considering creating a new /lit/ for LITERATURE ONLY, but I wouldn't have free time available to moderate the thing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:43:01 2020 No.16059993 File: 184 KB, 800x430, mootikins.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16059952 >>16059970 >/lit/ has always been a Marxist board >>>/leftypol/

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:43:06 2020 No.16059996 >>16059946 >dialectal materialism It's closer to Darwinian natural selection, applied to societal conditions. It's the true "social Darwinism", you might say.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:44:03 2020 No.16060002 >>16059970 It hasn't, liar. It wasn't even about politics back in the day. Back to Merddit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:44:41 2020 No.16060005 >>16059992 There are 99 braindead frogposter /pol/cel threads for every one leftist thread, though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:44:50 2020 No.16060007 Hayek's knowledge problem and Mises's calculation problem

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:45:42 2020 No.16060013

>>16059973
What did he need the car for? To get to work faster?

He still has the problem that in order to survive he has to literally sell his own freedom for eight to ten hours a day, five to six days a week, in order to survive.

Or maybe he wanted the car for another reason; I have no idea.

The point is that merely having one problem patched up doesn't somehow mean that every other problem disappears. If I fell down a flight of stairs and broke my arms, legs, and spine in the process, while sustaining a minor cut on my cheek, do you think I would feel happy if you put a band-aid on the wound and walked away?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:45:43 2020 No.16060012 >>16060002 Congratulations - you just outed yourself as a newfag.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:45:51 2020 No.16060015 >>16059973 Maybe he didn't even need a car, maybe his car needs are less important than other needs, maybe he's depressed because of other fucking shit you know

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:46:07 2020 No.16060016 >>16059992 /pol/ and /leftypol/ have got to go before they kill this board.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:47:47 2020 No.16060028 >>16060015 >>16060013 yeah but whats the end game lads. even if we're living in post scarcity, won't there be something absolutely fucking our shit up? i mean look at how many absolutely rich motherfuckers off themselves

>>	jesus Thu Aug 6 00:49:34 2020 No.16060041 File: 31 KB, 600x451, 1595759053291.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16059516 why why is not a question?

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:49:40 2020 No.16060042

>>16059939
hey m8, anon your replying to. so are argument is what comes first the soul/spirit and its creations OR the material world and it's influences.
So relating it back to my original post. Having equal access to material (the physical and its means of production) while ignoring the spirit, since in marxist terms is not real. will create a more joyous society / unifying society?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:49:58 2020 No.16060049 >>16060028 Extreme wealth is just as toxic as extreme poverty. The solution is the abolition of capital.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:52:09 2020 No.16060063

>>16059908
>what was lost among commoners in the transition to the industrial economy, in which their once coherent, meaningful work was replaced by mechanistic, isolated tasks like putting tops on bottoms
>meaningful
>mechanistic, isolated tasks

Can he prove that that had the effect of depriving the *right* of the worker to *conceive* of themselves as *directors of their own actions*? Looks like a big non sequitur to me.

I disagree with the statement, and the burden of proof is his. Where is the empirical data?

Also, what does ''meaningful'' mean? Does it mean that the terrible work that people did before the industrial revolution was in some sense better than the work they do now? Why? People have always complained about work, I don't think they complain about it nowadays anymore than they did 1000 years ago. Does Marx have empirical data to prove his point?

Sorry, but I am not willing to believe anything about ''workers'' (however you define it, I believe the term to refer to an empirical object or collection of objects) without very strong, mathematically sound empirical data, specially when it comes to psychology, which is a very young science - nay, not even a science yet - whose experiments have around 60% chance of failure to replicate. How does Marx prove his psychological claims about the conditions of the worker?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:52:24 2020 No.16060065 >>16060042 There is nothing the government can do to boost your spirituality. That's up to you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:52:32 2020 No.16060066 >>16060049 If there's no capital, everyone is going to be poor.

gave friend the car Thu Aug 6 00:53:17 2020 No.16060071

>>16060013
anon with the friend who received the car. my friend is a depressive person who is possessed (or possess in marxist terms ;) ) a woah is me attitude who has no idea what to do with his life and is scared to do anything. he told me he was tons of money so he can go around life and figure it out while not having to worry about finances. their is more to it also.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:53:48 2020 No.16060074 >>16060066 Astoundingly retarded

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:54:00 2020 No.16060076

>>16060049

why though? something something inauthentic social relationships right? but what about relationships with other obscenely rich people? isn't that a simulation of post-scarcity?

even if we are in post-scarcity, there's still scarce things. like sex, right? sex is limited to womens libidinal urges. theres gonna be scarcity around that and it will drive similar inauthentic and toxic relationships

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:54:08 2020 No.16060077 >>16060066 I'm referring to private ownership of capital, not the physical means of production themselves.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:54:27 2020 No.16060080 >>16060074 You realize the poorest countries are the poorest not because they have too much capital, but because they have too little?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:55:18 2020 No.16060085 >>16060080 "Abolition of capital" means common ownership, not burning factories or whatever

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:55:22 2020 No.16060086 >>16060076 There's nothing wrong with scarcity. It's a fact of life. Not sure what you're on about.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:55:30 2020 No.16060088
File: 1.50 MB, 1891x1003, lit's first page right now.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16060016
They have already killed it.

Months ago I tried to convince the moderation into banning political (including political philosophy) discussions from the board, and everyone laughed at me.

There's no literature here anymore. People post a Yeats poem or something about Pessoa and it gets relegated to the lowest pages, while stuff like pic related stays on the first page.

Just look at the thing.

>>	gave friend the car Thu Aug 6 00:56:22 2020 No.16060097 >>16060065 it seems that way. I wonder if ancient cultures were any different. or perhaps small enclave cultures today who have pow-wows. maybe the native americans were more keen on such a reality.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:56:38 2020 No.16060098 >>16060086 so long as there is scarcity an incentive system for competition will emerge and it will undermine any project striving for the abolition of resource accumulation

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:56:55 2020 No.16060101 Six words: LOCAL KNOWLEDGE PROBLEM, ECONOMIC CALCULATION PROBLEM

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:57:30 2020 No.16060106

>>16060077
Considering what a shitshow housing projects are in the united states, I'm not that excited about that idea anymore than I am about the abolition of private housing. Housing projects were supposed to be evil slumlords of out business, instead it created giant crime ridden government owned slums.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:58:41 2020 No.16060115 >>16060088 They can raid all they want, it won't make Marxist ideology viable.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 00:59:09 2020 No.16060119 >>16060115 Why isn't it?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:00:27 2020 No.16060129 >>16060119 >>16060101

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:00:48 2020 No.16060130 >>16060129 Explain how "6 words" destroy Marxism

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:01:29 2020 No.16060137

>>16060015
Precisely.

>>16060028
A dogmatic reply would be no, there would be nothing fucking one's shit up if each person was liberated from need and had the autonomy and freedom to pursue one's creative, human pursuits. A better answer is that significantly more people would be significantly happier than they are now, so the emancipation of all people from material need is a political goal worth pursuing, and would bring better end results than, say, keeping universal wage later but teaching everyone the tenets of Mormonism or some shit.

>>16060042
>so are argument is what comes first the soul/spirit and its creations OR the material world and it's influences.

I'd say that's a fair summary of the broad philosophical debate between materialism and idealism.

>Having equal access to material (the physical and its means of production) while ignoring the spirit, since in marxist terms is not real. will create a more joyous society / unifying society?

This is not quite right. Marx wrote at length about the human spirit -- he calls it species being to distinguish it from the Christian notion of soul. Basically, for Marx, people have an innate need to express themselves creatively and to interact with the beautiful in order give their lives meaning. Obviously, if you are a little orphan kid in Industrial Revolution England working a twelve-hour shift at a steel mill for an ounce of gruel, you will not be able to fulfill the creative drive of your species being.

For Marx, the only way for a human to self-actualize, to borrow a term from psychology, is to liberate that person from the need to sell their labor, and consequently their freedom, in order to survive.

I should point out that not everyone reads Marx this way. I am of the Eric Fromm school of Marxist Humanists. Someone like, I don't know, Stalin, would probably talk less about species being and fulfilling individual human potential and more about the need to rapidly industrialize agriculture.

gave friend the car Thu Aug 6 01:01:56 2020 No.16060146

>>16059996
ok, I think I understand. what about occurrences beyond the normal. even extreme examples such as hallucinogenic states. for example: Dock Ellis, in 1970 threw a no hitter on LSD. did he do this because of the game conditions or because of influence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqvlrJQVAP4

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:03:49 2020 No.16060154

>>16060098
You really need to read Marx. Abolishing private ownership of capital does not by itself do anything to increase or decrease "competition". "Resource accumulation" requires laws protecting corporations and capital ownership; nobody becomes a billionaire by trading their time for wages.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:05:25 2020 No.16060163 >>16060119 IT DOESN'T WORK

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:05:47 2020 No.16060165 >>16059529 >LTV is also bulslhit >neoclassical economics Lmao look at this retard

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:05:54 2020 No.16060166

>>16060119
Because workers aren't minmaxing bugmen who will overthrow the government and ban religion in order to take home and extra three widgets at the end of the day. If a worker is such a minmaxing bugman he can just go to bugschool and get a higher paying bugjob as he sees fit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:06:12 2020 No.16060169 >>16060163 Why?

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:07:04 2020 No.16060173

>>16060137

>A better answer is that significantly more people would be significantly happier than they are now, so the emancipation of all people from material need is a political goal worth pursuing, and would bring better end results than, say, keeping universal wage later but teaching everyone the tenets of Mormonism or some shit.

I agree. but is the best way to bring about material condition improvement some meager policy change (i.e. $15 min wage) or to accelerate the development of capitalist economies to a point of post-scarcity where liberation from need is inherent?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:07:16 2020 No.16060174 >>16060088 >They have already killed it. It's only a matter of time before we become /his/ tier, which is just /leftypol/ - lite at this point with some >HRE memes.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:07:19 2020 No.16060175 >>16060166 You appear to be confusing Marx with neoclassical economists.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:07:22 2020 No.16060176 >>16060166 Absolutely delusional, read Marx

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:08:35 2020 No.16060185 >>16060175 >>16060176 I'm simply responding to the Marx quote that you posted.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:08:56 2020 No.16060188

>>16060169
Because it was tried multiple times and ended in complete failure. China's swap to freer market and making a complete 180 to a super power was the ultimate btfo of communism. Also historical materialism is mental gymnastics and an obvious spook.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:09:48 2020 No.16060193 >>16060185 Which "Marx quote" is that?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:10:15 2020 No.16060197 >>16060193 Read the thread.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:10:51 2020 No.16060201 >>16060197 Ah, so you just made it up. Gotcha.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:11:33 2020 No.16060205 >>16059880 Why do they even care about raiding this shithole so much?

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:13:13 2020 No.16060209

>>16060173
It's a good question, and I don't have a satisfactory answer to it. Incremental policy change configured in a piecemeal way by elected representatives whose policy goals are largely decided by their donors is obviously not Marx's idea of a good time.

But I'm also fairly confident full-blown accelerationism is not the answer if the proletariat is completely gutted in the process.

Truth be told, the solution, if there is one, is probably more "dialectical" -- a slow back-and-forth between the forces of global capitalist acceleration and the forces of labor. It's not terribly exciting, and it's going to take a long time, but it's worth noting Marx basically argued that there have only been like three or four radical transformations in the economic mode of production in world history.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:13:19 2020 No.16060211

>>16060201
Made what up? Deflecting from criticism of Joe Biden on Reddit with these tactics might work for the DNC, but you're the one trying to convince people that communism isn't trash, so derailing thread is actually against your material interest.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:13:23 2020 No.16060212
File: 254 KB, 785x1000, soyjakl.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16060205
>MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH REVOLUTION
They think this unironically, and they think /lit/ posters will go outside to rally against "da jooz" sorry i mean "da porky" kek.

gave friend the car Thu Aug 6 01:14:15 2020 No.16060216

>>16060137
So the being, known as human has an innate unknown element within them, that strives for human things, such as beauty and glory. and this element is a human element derived from being human. not something bestowed upon us. is this correct?
now when it comes to liberation of
> that person from the need to sell their labor, and consequently their freedom, in order to survive.
how can this be achieved? going back to my first post >>>16059552
if I have a friend who lives rent free in his house, is not alone (has a sibling) has equal access to both his parents (divorced), received a car for free, has friends who encourage him and take him places (when he want to leave the house), etc. what exactly is wrong with him? in terms of the marxist doctrine he appears to be un-oppressed from everyday 'soul selling' work and yet has tendencies that pronounce (along with subtle language that say) "I don't care for life, its not really worth it. I've thought about suicide etc"

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:14:59 2020 No.16060225 >>16060205 Because going to a riot in Portland would force them to leave their mom's basement, and that's scary.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:16:26 2020 No.16060234 >>16060211 Nigger please. You said you were "responding to a Marx quote" and I asked you which Marx quote. You didn't have an answer so now you are spinning your wheels like a faggot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:18:50 2020 No.16060247 >>16059516 >The virgin agree/disagree dichotomy versus the Chad admiration for the first big scale experiment in the massive scale technological enslavement of the hominid

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:18:52 2020 No.16060248 If you check the threads linked in "muh leftypol" half the posts are either telling OP to sod off or raid smaller sites, leftypol is literally a boogeyman.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:19:11 2020 No.16060249 >>16060234 >Using naughty language to sound more "proletarian" Well, your authentic voice has convinced me, communism can work, my fellow worker!

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:19:43 2020 No.16060250 >>16060209 >Truth be told, the solution, if there is one, is probably more "dialectical" -- a slow back-and-forth between the forces of global capitalist acceleration and the forces of labor. I agree, anon. good chat

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:20:27 2020 No.16060252 >>16060249 Which Marx quote

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:20:51 2020 No.16060255 >>16060248 The OP of those supposed "raid threads" is probably the same deranged troll who linked to them here.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:21:44 2020 No.16060259 >>16060252 You've read Marx, surely you know what I'm referring to

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:22:00 2020 No.16060262 >>16060249 Not an argument, trollboy. Find the quote or fuck off back to /b/.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:23:05 2020 No.16060269 >>16060259 Nothing in Marx has remotely anything in common with what you posted. You appear to be confusing Marx with neoclassical economists.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:23:41 2020 No.16060275 >>16060262 Well, I'm convinced, where can I subscribe to your paper? You can't be a read Marxist with a party and a paper.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:24:29 2020 No.16060280 >>16060275 >still no quote

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:24:45 2020 No.16060285 >>16060269 Read Marx.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:25:58 2020 No.16060290 >>16059516 His theory is predicated on surplus, but human demand is infinite.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:26:24 2020 No.16060291
File: 60 KB, 598x415, 1529365775597.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16060248
>>16060255
>get caught
>"Bros don't make threads where they can see us planning to raid"
This is your brain on /leftypol/, the damage control is out of this world. You need to go back and stop shitting up the board.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:27:01 2020 No.16060294

>>16060216
>this element is a human element derived from being human. not something bestowed upon us. is this correct?

More or less. Species being is a concept partially derived from emerging scientific views of biological adaptation and evolution of the 19th century, which Marx was well-versed in.

A reductive answer would be that it is bestowed upon us by our own genetic make-up, which is the result of thousands of years of less-than-pleasant interactions with the material world.

As for your friend, there are many different material reasons that could be causing his depression despite having certain physical needs taken care of. I'm not a trained psychologist, and I couldn't tell you what his problem is, but you should consider, too, that Marx believed human beings were fundamentally social beings and required cooperation to survive as a species. A lone individual with a degree of freedom in a fundamentally unfree society cannot fulfill his species being.

But I should also point out that I'm not a dogmatist. I don't believe that freeing every person from physical need is going to produce a literally perfect society. As I said here, though, >>16060137, with some typos, lol, is that socialism, as Marx envisioned it, would make a lot more people a lot happier than they are now, so individual examples of people who would still be unhappy, or even suicidal, would not dissuade me from pursuing a Marxist political project and instead glumly adhering to the status quo.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:28:43 2020 No.16060304 >>16060290 Human needs are quite finite. Throw aside your soulless and acquisitive ways, bugman.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:28:45 2020 No.16060306

>>16060294
>is that socialism, as Marx envisioned it, would make a lot more people a lot happier than they are now, so individual examples of people who would still be unhappy, or even suicidal, would not dissuade me from pursuing a Marxist political project and instead glumly adhering to the status quo.

So he's just an anglo utilitarian in the end. Sad.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:29:52 2020 No.16060316 >>16060290 Literal consoomer mindset

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:30:13 2020 No.16060318 >>16060304 But if someone's not acquisitive, why do they care about revolution? If a guy sits on his ass playing video games all day after work and is content, why should he risk his life overthrowing the government for you?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:30:21 2020 No.16060319 >>16060291 Jesus Christ, anon. Just admit you posted those threads. Everyone already knows you're a nutjob.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:31:12 2020 No.16060320 >>16060306 >So he's just an anglo utilitarian in the end all normative ethics collapses into utilitarianism

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:32:36 2020 No.16060330 >>16060318 You described alienation and a lack of class consciousness

>>	gave friend the car Thu Aug 6 01:33:41 2020 No.16060337 >>16060294 thanks m8, I would love to continue chatting but I'm waking up early. thanks again, it was fun. I have some more questions, maybe on another thread? later. enjoy.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:34:26 2020 No.16060346

>>16060330
So you're saying there won't be Fortnite after the revolution? idk if that's gonna go over real well. Also, I would say you lack class consciousness, since you think it's your role to decide how society is organized, when you are nothing but a 4chan posting bug.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:35:02 2020 No.16060350 >>16060318 Wanting your fair share, a living wage, an end to capitalist exploitation -- these are not infinite demands.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:35:42 2020 No.16060351 >>16059836 You niggers killed like a billion beeple lmao

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:36:29 2020 No.16060356

>>16060306
No, that would be me! As I said, I'm not a dogmatic Marxist, and Marx would probably have more compelling answers for you than a drunk college student at 2 in the morning, lol.

Rather than unhelpfully just telling you to read Marx, though, if you're really interested in Marx's view on human fulfillment and freedom from misery, I would check out Erich Fromm's Marx's Concept of Man. Fromm, whose read more Marx than I ever will, draws widely from Marx's many texts to show that Marx was, at root, a Humanist in the Enlightenment tradition whose philosophy brilliantly balances the importance of the individual and the importance of the community to and for the individual.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:36:33 2020 No.16060358 >>16060350 What makes you think you aren't getting "your fair share" right now? How much value did you create today? Your shitty posts did create some content for the owner of 4channel, but that can't be worth more than a few pennies.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:37:39 2020 No.16060364
File: 25 KB, 500x375, 1439610227840.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>16060319
>Just admit you posted those threads
>100+ posts discussing raiding tactics and where to raid was literally all a single poster and it was me
Really pathetic damage control, I would feel pity if you weren't killing the fucking board.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:38:18 2020 No.16060369 >>16060337 Good night! It was nice chatting with you as well. I seldom come to /lit/, but when I do it's to talk about Marx in the least edgy way possible, so hopefully we'll speak again.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:39:25 2020 No.16060376 >>16060351 Either anarchist(liberal)or reactionary, either way retarded

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:39:48 2020 No.16060378 >>16060364 You're embarrassing yourself, anon.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:42:05 2020 No.16060390 >>16060378 >no u K...keep me posted.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:43:02 2020 No.16060397 >>16060378 Hmmm...

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:43:18 2020 No.16060401 >>16060358 Anyone who lives off a paycheck is not getting his fair share given than most of gross product goes to a small number capital owners.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:46:38 2020 No.16060419

>>16060101
>One reason why economists are increasingly apt to forget about the constant small changes which make up the whole economic picture is probably their growing preoccupation with statistical aggregates, which show a very much greater stability than the movements of the detail. The comparative stability of the aggregates cannot, however, be accounted for—as the statisticians occasionally seem to be inclined to do—by the "law of large numbers" or the mutual compensation of random changes. The number of elements with which we have to deal is not large enough for such accidental forces to produce stability. The continuous flow of goods and services is maintained by constant deliberate adjustments, by new dispositions made every day in the light of circumstances not known the day before, by B stepping in at once when A fails to deliver. Even the large and highly mechanized plant keeps going largely because of an environment upon which it can draw for all sorts of unexpected needs; tiles for its roof, stationery for its forms, and all the thousand and one kinds of equipment in which it cannot be self-contained and which the plans for the operation of the plant require to be readily available in the market.
God DANG marx btfo

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:48:48 2020 No.16060433 i have yet to see a single explanation as to how this system can actually be implemented in practice as it exists on paper. no your fantasy about humanity becoming "more evolved" is not a valid explanation

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:49:34 2020 No.16060440 >>16060316 Anon, we are all consoomers. Its all we know and it is going to take more than a revolution to break that. We will always keep wanting more and resources are finite

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:51:46 2020 No.16060448
File: 21 KB, 426x312, images - 2020-03-10T214434.484.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

He was completely wrong on over population and never addressed it as the true issue, he just ignored it. The Soviets had a higher fertility rate than the average fertility rate of every Capitalist nation right now, Marx said over population was caused by Capitalism and we have statistics going back 30 years that disprove this.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:52:35 2020 No.16060450 >>16060433 Simply repeal the laws on capital property.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:52:47 2020 No.16060452 >>16060350 What do you think Marx meant by "fair share" in 1850 and what do you mean by it now?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:53:18 2020 No.16060455 >materialism >dialectics >teleology Look, I think he has some great economic insights, but I can't get behind the foundations of his philosophical system.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:53:27 2020 No.16060456 >>16060376 Shut the fuck up nigger

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:54:32 2020 No.16060464 >>16060448 The soviets took care of overpopulation in their own way. It all balances out in the end.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 01:57:40 2020 No.16060478

>>16060464
The wars certainly helped, but over population is worse now. Be honest you'll never be able to revert back to a time where you didn't have as many services as you do now, the normalization of that can definitely be blamed on Capitalism, but we also must admit our own selfish faults.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 02:00:56 2020 No.16060492

>>16060452
What passage are you referring to? To socialists in general, income generated from physical capital should flow to no one other than the workers who made it and operate it. Absentee landlords, heirs, idle rentiers and the like do not add economic value.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 02:53:18 2020 No.16060685 >>16059880 /leftypol/ was originally an offshoot of /lit/. /lit/ and /mu/ have always been the most leftist boards on 4chinz. The problem is that /leftypol/ has been coup'd by Twitter-tier nu-Stalinists.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 02:55:48 2020 No.16060694 >>16059529 Lol.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:01:15 2020 No.16060711 >>16060685 >/leftypol/ was originally an offshoot of /lit/ Delusional, you really do need to fuck off back there regardless.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:03:57 2020 No.16060722 >>16060711 >Delusional, you really do need to fuck off back there regardless. How new are you my faggot?

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:11:29 2020 No.16060745 File: 135 KB, 954x1157, 1596307823630.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16060722 Not as new as you my reddit friend.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:32:59 2020 No.16060820

>>16059516
So at first I was gonna make fun of Marxists but I read the thread and it turns out /lit subhumans do not even know the meaning of historical materialism the way Marx defines it.

One of the most compelling arguments against him I think is very short and by Weber, in the intro of Wirtshaft und Gesellschaft. He explains Marx‘ materialism is a regurgitation of traditional societal theories regarding conflict and race/biology, but applied to class differences. Now Marx of course tries to apply an empirical approach to his theories but imo overemphasises the importance of economics. There is the homo faber v homo economicus idea. Anyway, Weber rightfully explains that intrinsic motivation plays a role in a broader sense (alienation) but cultural value plays an equally important role within economics. On a personal note, I believe a certain awareness of relative cultural values is what made western expansionism successful in the first place. Interestingly Lenin’s work indeed critiques the before mentioned phenomenon as imperialism and dismissed it on an economical basis.

Now it makes sense considering the era in which Marx lived and what he observed that he thought humans were the product of materialism and while his observations were certainly correct back then I think times caught up and information became the new axis as the value of labour decreased to almost nothing.

Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:36:12 2020 No.16060835

>>16059516
Because the Labor theory of Value makes no sense (how can something as subjective and individualized as value be magically imbued in an object not only exclusively by but in rigid proportion to the amount of labor?), and any political/economic system whose central premise is a falsehood will obviously fall apart.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:37:28 2020 No.16060839 File: 409 KB, 944x4013, IMG_4866.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16060745 Pic related my faggot

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:43:32 2020 No.16060864 >>16059707 No, the sweat has been outsourced to China and you ain't getting a drop of it

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:46:40 2020 No.16060875 >>16060745 I've been here for years and years and I am a solid leftist

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:49:35 2020 No.16060887 >>16060745 >5 upvotes and 4 poster woah this is an invasion now compare your pic related to this >>16060839 fucking clown

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:50:59 2020 No.16060892 Tendency of the rate of profit to fall

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 03:57:17 2020 No.16060930 >>16059516 Marxism being pseudoscience is the biggest factor for me. And it's osified by centralizing on authors (Marx and Engels) rather than ideas.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 04:05:30 2020 No.16060973 >>16060097 It's not that way, from the ancient Egyptians to the ancient Greeks to the Roman Empire to the Holy Roman Empire, they were all to some degree spiritual in their governance.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 05:11:02 2020 No.16061222 >>16059529 >i'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 05:12:35 2020 No.16061229 >>16059538 >some ethnic groups are counter-revolutionary and deserve to disappear he's right though

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 05:13:25 2020 No.16061233 >>16059529 ok kid

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 05:13:37 2020 No.16061234 >>16059552 even if that's what marx meant, it could have been any other material change that was required and not this particular one

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 05:14:26 2020 No.16061244 >>16059582 >analytical """"""marxism""""" cringe

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 05:15:33 2020 No.16061250 >>16060892 It's empirically observed and was accepted as an existing phenomena before Marx attempted to give it an explanation

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 05:19:01 2020 No.16061266 >>16060892 You definitely don't understand it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 08:31:19 2020 No.16062142 >>16060835 Based retard not knowing what LTV is

>>	Anonymous Thu Aug 6 08:33:35 2020 No.16062155 File: 31 KB, 976x635, E0F7A7A0-3B06-446B-AA9D-6E7347212A37-1669-0000021978EAA718.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16060892 ...has been proven right

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]

/lit/ - Literature