/marx/

[Anonymous No.16179279]

Discuss Marx's writings and related authors.
Where to start:
marxists dot org
Where to discuss:
/marx/, bunkerchan dot xyz slash leftypol, /pol/

[Anonymous No.16179288]

How's about we discuss how much of the world his God awful ideology destroyed instead?

Karl "never worked a day in me life" Marx

[Anonymous No.16179302]

>>16179288
Marx worked as a newspaper writer for smaller papers and the NYT

[Anonymous No.16179332]

>>16179302
He obviously meant alienated wage labour not bourgeois stipendiary.

How fucking young are you that you fall for that bait anyway? Has the trot group allowed you to hold the megaphone yet?

Read Condition.

[Anonymous No.16179359]

>>16179332
>He obviously meant alienated wage labour not bourgeois stipendiary.
See: Capital, Chapter 21: Piece Wages

[Anonymous No.16179378]

not literature

[Anonymous No.16179383]

>>16179378
>This writer isn't literature because XYZ
No, cope harder.

[Anonymous No.16179407]

We already had mutliple Marx threads in the past few days.

[Anonymous No.16179420]

>>16179407
"We already had mutliple Dostoevsky threads in the past few days."
"We already had mutliple Tolkien threads in the past few days."
"We already had mutliple Hegel threads in the past few days."
"We already had mutliple Kant threads in the past few days."

[Anonymous No.16179434]

>>16179383
Do you think literature is a synonym for books? Are you illiterate or retarded?

[Anonymous No.16179446]

>>16179434
From the pinned thread here:
>/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction)
>specifically books (fiction & NON-FICTION)

[Anonymous No.16179457]

>>16179359
The dominant relationship dictates. Marx subsisted on stipends and being given money to write opeds was and is stipendiary *not* the purchase of a labour power commodity at subsistence (ie: reproduction). Read the first chapter on the wage.

[Anonymous No.16179473]

>>16179457
>Marx subsisted on stipends and being given money to write opeds was and is stipendiary *not* the purchase of a labour power commodity at subsistence
Where's your proof that this is even true? Not the theory behind it, but rather that it's applicable to Marx's jobs.

[Anonymous No.16179481]

>>16179302
>>16179332
>>16179359
>>16179457
>>16179473
>Infighting 3 posts in
Lol this is why communists will never succeed.

[Anonymous No.16179517]

Your arguments seem to be made up entirely out of segments taken from Marx's works. It's akin to bible quotation. Do you make your own mind up on communist theory?

[Anonymous No.16179528]

>>16179517
>Your arguments seem to be made up entirely out of segments taken from Marx's works.
Well yes, when it's an argument over Marx it makes sense you'd do that.
>Do you make your own mind up on communist theory?
Of course. I don't see how quoting Marx means you can't have your own opinion.

[Anonymous No.16179575]

>>16179528
I'm not here to antagonize anyone, but I have some questions to ask.

Why in this discussion do you reference chapters from Marx's works as if they were some infallible maxims? In a sense I am asking for you to elaborate your first response.

Also, on a side note, how does Engels tie in to Marxist theory? Is Engels's work best treated as a separate Communist body? I am reading
The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State for context.

[Anonymous No.16179577]

>>16179473
Letters. Begging Engels. Being a University emigre in 19th century London. There not being a labour market for wage slaves in opeditiocy

>>16179517
Yes. Particularly exertion effort reward, long term wage deflation, social average lengths via overtime, family wage setting as reproduction cost. Marx is a handy summary, but certainly not a method to advance struggle. Only observe existing.

[Anonymous No.16179582]

>>16179279
I have literally never encountered a Marxist argument that I couldn't destroy

I'm on house arrest starting tomorrow, give me your best you fucking pussies.

[Anonymous No.16179592]

>>16179575
Engels was the coauthor and literary executor of Capital. Engels is a deficient philosopher, but an exceptional social scientist. Except for antiduhring Engels is more useful in struggle than Marx.

Marxs categories have been praxically verified in terms of Labour power and the proletariat by workers and the proletariat. We were discussing Marxs relationship to capital in general. Therefore using Marxs bourgeois categories as a short hand for the actual historical material or praxic categories makes fucking sense.

[Anonymous No.16179599]

>>16179582
End third of the German ideology on Stirner.

[Anonymous No.16179607]

>>16179599
Make some quotes, vague open statements are not arguments.

[Anonymous No.16179615]

>>16179592
How does the fact that Marx was a Hegelian disciple influence his becoming of a communist?
Is Hegel something collectivists need to brush over?

[Anonymous No.16179620]

>>16179615
Hegel is a relativist that thinks nothing is real, this is beneficial for the communist mindset because you can just jam a square object into a circular hole and it's all good.

[Anonymous No.16179636]

>>16179407
We've also had a bunch of fascist stuff here. Let the leftists have their hugbox

[Anonymous No.16179642]

>>16179279
My nigga Marx knew how to praxis with the maid baddaboom hey Fred go clean up my mess hazzaa

[Anonymous No.16179662]

>>16179642
damn boi u got em good how they gon recover from dis one

[Anonymous No.16179747]

>>16179279
I especially love his idea of common ownership. Since it is physically impossible for (even) hundreds of people to exercise control over some single object they must choose some small representative body somehow - now we are back to square one, but worse, because this small group effectively owns said object - without building it or paying for it (and the fact that the ownership is only temporary creates all the more incentives for defraudation).

[Anonymous No.16179763]

>>16179607
You know Marx wrote a whole volume whose translations are out of copyright and freely available futon

[Anonymous No.16179769]

>>16179615
It depends on whether you’re reading Marx as a philosopher or as terrain advice on hanging the bureaucrats with the guts of the bosses. Hegel is relevant for young Marx in the former reading.

[Anonymous No.16179823]

>>16179769
>Hegel is relevant for young Marx in the former reading.
>muh althusserian young vs old marx meme
git gud nigga

[Anonymous No.16179839]

I think Eduard Bernstein makes a compelling argument for non militant action. Less bloodshed when you battle with votes.

[Anonymous No.16179850]

What do I do if I like Marx but every Marxist I've ever met was a homosexual retarded pussy?

[Anonymous No.16179861]

>>16179850
reflect that you are also a homosexual retarded pussy

[Anonymous No.16179864]

>>16179861
For you

[Anonymous No.16179907]

>>16179279
meds not taken
voices in the wall heard
basement fortified against capitalist aggression
buzz words memorized
strawmans formulated
yep its time to talk about (((karl marx))) on my favorite internet website.

[Anonymous No.16179924]

>>16179279
Honest question:
Why read Marx Today?
His philosophy is a dumbed down version of Hegel/Saint-Simon/Feuerbach.
His ecology is insufficient and he rejected moralism so the scientific grounds, which is all that there is to it, has already been falsified.
Why read Marx today when any contemporary economist has a better understanding of world economy/particular economies than he has to offer?
Is Marx the Guenon of the traditional leftists?

[Anonymous No.16179931]

>>16179907
I don't sense an argument.
>>16179924
Marxism is just as applicable today as it was in 1917.

[Anonymous No.16179945]

>>16179850
Same. I'm a Marxist, anyone vaguely left leaning online has a 99% chance of being some trans person looking for attention. Better to just organize IRL.

[Anonymous No.16179969]

>>16179823
Marxs later works treat struggle more seriously and skip intersubjectivity as a bourgeois conception.

[Anonymous No.16180009]

>>16179931
>Marxism is just as applicable today as it was in 1917
HOW and WHY?
Explain why the most industrialized country at the time, England, didn't had a "proletarian" revolution.

[Anonymous No.16180061]

Important thread because Marxism is more significant and important than any other bullshit /lit/ can muster up.

[Anonymous No.16180087]

>people claiming marxism is not relevant anymore
>people also claiming that marxism is an ideology to be implemented in this thread
you fools don't know how wrong you are.....
also shut the FUCK UP ABOUT HEGEL

[Anonymous No.16180097]

>>16180087
DUUUDE I OVER STAND MARX AAAAND HEGEL
AMA

[Anonymous No.16180108]

>>16180097
this man has just resolved the internal contradictions of "under standing" and negated it..... incredible.

[Anonymous No.16180211]

>>16180009
>Explain why the most industrialized country at the time, England, didn't had a "proletarian" revolution.
Tronti (1964) Lenin in England
Hilferding Imperialism

England had both the most advanced repressive techniques known to man (parliament, enclosure, police, new unionism, the labour party), and super profits from imperialism.

There were multiple revolts in England's periphery during the 19th century, most notably in India. India where the majority of English superprofit came from.

[Anonymous No.16180228]

>>16180211
even while engels writes conditions of the working class he notes that a "labour aristocracy" is forming in England, where workers are receiving benefits from capitalists. That might be in the introduction, but my point remains.

[Anonymous No.16180243]

>>16180228
Whereas in the most developed 20th century cases of capitalism, in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, spontaneous working class revolts which recapitulated the class as the proletariat in direct governance occured.

Strange that.

[Anonymous No.16180266]

Bump this thread needs to stay active, the promotion of class consciousness is of paramount importance. Plus the other threads on /lit/ are shit.

[Anonymous No.16180303]

>>16180009
Based ESL

[Anonymous No.16180342]

>>16180009
Marx is still relevant to the looming idea of automation.

I want Fully Automated Luxury Communism NOW.

[Anonymous No.16180382]

>>16180009
Read Marx, please.
>>16180342
Reddit called.

[Anonymous No.16180410]

>>16180382
Then obviously hang up.

[Anonymous No.16180493]

Got this from the Verso book sale, really satisfied my commodity fetish.

[Anonymous No.16180528]

>>16179279
>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.16180541]

you gonna do something about the folks using uncle grandpa there to justify basically destroying everything good and just in the world, or do we need another hitler?

[Anonymous No.16180547]

>>16179279
this guys a big fucking dummy lol

[Anonymous No.16180559]

>>16179763
Im well aware of his writings, now make specific quotes and specific claims and watch your own world crumble

[Anonymous No.16180571]

>marxists

[Anonymous No.16180648]

>>16179473
Commie cornered

You animals are all the same

[Anonymous No.16180663]

Hot take: Marx wanted to devalue labor that he was bad at while protecting the value of labor that he was good at

Marx hate lift rock, Marx want only write word. Marx big sad about nobody care.

[Anonymous No.16180669]

>>16180663
This. Most of commies i know personally coincidentially do jobs that are not valued by the market.

[Anonymous No.16180887]

>>16180493
Seeing harvey made me pule a little

[Anonymous No.16181247]

>>16179969
>Marxs later works treat struggle more seriously and skip intersubjectivity as a bourgeois conception.
My man never left Hegel, he never left his communist man as norm against today's alienation

[Anonymous No.16181253]

>>16180493
not surprised you don't know what commodity fetishism is dumbass

[Anonymous No.16181269]

>>16181253
not surprised you are an arrogant fuck dumbass, not OP btw you are just an asshole

[Anonymous No.16181284]

uh acá sí que no se coge

[Anonymous No.16181308]

>>16179288
is it not the bourgois ideal to maximise money for labour? surely, if marx was so wrong about bourgoisie parasitism, then we should appload marx for avoiding work so well. Marx never needed the state to feed him, and was blacklisted from his chosen career, and still managed to do allright, while muh markets muh rent muh wealth of nations adam smith was paid by the state his whole life.

[Anonymous No.16181422]

>>16181269
welcome to 4chan, no feddit mod to ban me nigga

[Anonymous No.16181505]

>>16181422
you are projecting very hard here my friend

[Anonymous No.16181512]

When will Marxists start talking about banks?

[Anonymous No.16181523]

>>16181512
when you're ready to acknowledge they always have. Marx, Engels and Lenin all talk about them, so does Luxemburg. Stop living in your dream world.

[Anonymous No.16181557]

>>16181512
Marx did in the Communist Manifesto:
>5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

[Anonymous No.16181584]

>>16179279
How did he debunk fascism?

[Anonymous No.16181631]

>>16181557
What did he say about jewish central banks?

[Anonymous No.16181658]

>>16181631
Nothing, you're looking for Bakunin. This "jewish banker" shit is petite-bourgeois to the core. Its the boogeyman of small business owners who get into debt and who just want to pogrom a section of the population while keeping the capitalist structure and not having to give up their own private property.

[Anonymous No.16181659]

Marxism does not work.

Socialism does not work.

Communism does not work.

[Anonymous No.16181707]

>>16181659
>implying Marxism can or cannot work

[Anonymous No.16181738]

>>16181658
>central banks are fine, it's the kulaks that are the real menace
you are a joke

[Anonymous No.16181765]

>>16181738
Central banks under a dictatorship of the proletariat are fine. The central bank of the USSR (gosbank) wasn't even commercial anyway, you didn't take "loans" from it.

[Anonymous No.16181772]

>>16181659
>Marxism does not work.

What did he mean by this?

[Anonymous No.16182013]

>>16179288
Brainlet that you are, you ascribe the often violent tides of revolutionary movements as creations of Marx's "ideology," not inevitable aftershocks of capitalism that Marx accurately predicted.

[Anonymous No.16182037]

>>16180663
Why do you say this Marx obviously had a hard on for industry

[Anonymous No.16182052]

>>16181765
>under a dictatorship of the proletariat
yeah you mean 'a guy and his friends' by that

[Anonymous No.16182102]

>>16179582
Economic class is the single most important structure in modern society.

[Anonymous No.16182120]

>>16180571
That retard is somehow less larpy than every person on this website.
Good shit.

[Anonymous No.16182159]

>>16180342
>fully automated luxury communism
How can you fully automate the economy when the economy is driven by human desire?

[Anonymous No.16182261]

>>16179279
Death to Karl Marx.

[Anonymous No.16182372]

>>16181505
_I_ am from plebbit? Anyway, have you read Ollman at all?

[Anonymous No.16183601]

>>16179279
if ive read
>critique of the gotha program
>german ideology
>wage labor and capital
>civil war in france
>socialism utopian and scientific
am i good to read capitol or is there more marx/engels i should read first

[Anonymous No.16183646]

cool thread guys

[Anonymous No.16183651]

IF ONLY THERE WAS A POLITICS BOARD ON 4CHAN. HMMMM.

[Anonymous No.16183703]

Is the manifesto worth it on its own? I don't want to start with Das Kapital yet.

[Anonymous No.16183743]

>>16183601
is this the order to read them in? or if anyone has other suggestions about where to start

[Anonymous No.16183747]

>>16183703
Socialism utopian and scientific is better than manifesto for a pamphlet sized intro.

[Anonymous No.16183768]

>>16183747
agree with this, engels also briefly covers the old utopian socialists like owen and simon which is good to know as background

[Anonymous No.16184245]

>>16182013
>people use marx as an excuse to butcher the opposition
>"b-bu-bu- it's not his fault! this happens all the time! he just predicted it haha"

[Anonymous No.16184250]

>>16179288
>writers don't work
kys

[Anonymous No.16184270]

>>16179924
Hegel wrote literal gibberish and tried to pass it off as philosophy.

[Anonymous No.16184277]

State and Rev is soo good

[Anonymous No.16185189]

>>16180493
What's up with "Companion to" grifters? Capital is easy as fuck to understand.

[Anonymous No.16185199]

>>16181659
>Marxism does not work.
Do Americans really

[Anonymous No.16185229]

Personally I’d recommend Engels historical studies and Hammond and Hammonds historical studies.

Marx and Engels are primarily useful as:
- posers of problems
- analysts of the laws of motion of capital

Neither are good autonomous proletarian activists. Engels is *marginally* superior to Marx in this regard. Lenin was another such bourgeois liberal but with less analysis.

You need to start with the IWW or KAPD if you want to understand proletarian autogestation as the revolutionary proletariat. This can be followed up with the history of the Hungarian and Czech revolutions of 56 and 68 respectively. Leninism par Leninism is a dead end of a mass grave: it has a bourgeois coup d’état theory (yes I do know Lenin’s critiques of party composition c 1915 and in S&R, he is still light years behind Nagys concrete tail ending the class).

Marxism is not a praxic science of revolution. It is a bourgeois philosophy, but admittedly a very useful bourgeois philosophy to determine how acts can recompose the class as it’s own historical subject.

To learn class struggle join the hards in your union and wrench the monkey.

[Anonymous No.16185375]

>>16185229
>Marxism is a bourgeois philosophy,

[Anonymous No.16186096]

>>16184245
>If it wasnt for Marx's nasty nasty book, there would never have been conflict and unrest in grossly poor and unequal countries going through radical economic change.

I suppose the potato famine was Locke's fault?
Unironically read Marx and consider why history happens.

[Anonymous No.16186167]

>>16182013
Capitalism caused an unindustrialized agricultural society to follow Stalin?

[Anonymous No.16186194]

r/socialism passing through

[Anonymous No.16186214]

>>16179279
look i use (shitpost) your chan sometimes and it's kinda comfie, but why do you have to autistically shill on other chans, leftypolers?

[Anonymous No.16186370]

>>16185375
Welcome to Marxism.

>>16186096
Yes the five year plans were enclosure and value maximisation through alienated wage labour under capital.

[Anonymous No.16186754]

>>16185375
Yes. It was generated by economists and the middle class

[Anonymous No.16186761]

>>16179279
I like Marx but hate all Marxists where do I fit in?

[Anonymous No.16186818]

>>16186167
In a sense, yes.


"Capitalism" in the abstract does not exist as some sort of ahistorical mover. The economic processes that manifested in Western Europe, that we describe as 'capitalism,' set the conditions for the unfolding of history over the past few centuries. The process of industrialization necessarily lead to class conflict along lines different from the ones in the feudal Europe that preceded it. In Russia, which had a weaker monarchy and less developed capitalist class than, say, Germany or France, this translated into a violent revolution, and rapid industrialization schemes that could only be carried out by a strong central government.

Marx spent his life describing the changes in the world around him, but he did not exist independently of the conditions he was describing. You could remove him individually from history, and the same processes would still play out (albeit perhaps with different icons or terminology)

Dont fall for great man history myths

[Anonymous No.16186988]

>>16186194
its not the worst intro to socialism. whats with the richard wolff videos tho can redditors not read

[Anonymous No.16187026]

>>16179288
>writing a gigantic collected works isn't working
Lmao ok

[Anonymous No.16187037]

>>16180571
>grifter ngo

[Anonymous No.16187061]

>>16180571
gotta admit portland riots seem like a hell of a party, i wonder if in the future they will have amusement parks for chinese tourists where they can get the authentic portland riot experience with tear gas and flashbags and shit, like a dude ranch but for riots

[Anonymous No.16187811]

>>16185229
Lmao what have the wobblies ever achieved?

[Anonymous No.16187818]

>>16179279

[Anonymous No.16187822]

>>16187818

[Anonymous No.16187834]

>>16187811
Proletarian autogestation. Now tell me about your bourgeois party and it’s bourgeois state.

[Anonymous No.16187848]

>>16182102
Wrong this is a matter of opinion and your parents are at fault for allowing foundationless children to exist aimlessly in space. This doesnt occur in functional households however it appears to be a pre-requisite for the life un-prepared faggot marxist

[Anonymous No.16187851]

>>16187834
All the wobblies have ever done is LARP, which is why the real workers have never backed them in significant numbers.

[Anonymous No.16187861]

>>16187822

[Gustav Klimt No.16187881]

>>16179279
AI is more important now than rehashing interpretations of Marx.

[Anonymous No.16187885]

There does not exist a marxist that doensnt lobby or undermine others to maintain his values

[Anonymous No.16187922]

>>16182159
Have the automation respond to human desire. It's supposed to be during post-scarcity anyway, so that doesn't change the output of the economy itself to a level where it's unacceptable for certain goods.

[Anonymous No.16187955]

>>16185199
By his own theory he could not understand working proletariat because he wasn't it's member.

[Anonymous No.16188368]

>>16187848
So you don't have a counter to that claim?

[Anonymous No.16188521]

>>16179288
You know, the absolute least you could do is to read his Wikipedia page before hammering your keyboard. Relying on opinions, feelings, and assumptions to make a statement is the bane of our world.

>>16180571
>Andy "I've got brain damage" Ngöööööööööööööö

[Anonymous No.16188807]

>>16187955
How is that related to some retard thinking marxism can work or not?

[Anonymous No.16189078]

>>16188807
I've responded to the wrong post and I'm surprised that somebody noticed.